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Messiah wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
FALLING DEATH: During deployment, you can place a monolith in the upper atmosphere instead of deploying it on the battlefield.

I love the wording here. Do you need friends in NASA to be able to deep strike Necrons?

At least the upper atmosphere isn't 30.000 kilometres away.

AquelM wrote:

 Kharne the Befriender wrote:
Are the Necron leaks translated anywhere or should I take a quick crash course in Italian?

My Italian and Spanish are pretty decent, I'll go hop in my desktop and do a rough translation. Anything in particular you want?

Are the c'tans really characters? Ie not targetable when they are next to tiny necron warriors despite towering over them?

People with indexes seem to be indicating no chapter tactics are in the books. That's... Worrying.

Hmm. I may mathammer Berzerkers vs Death company when I have some time tonight. Two classic dead 'ard HtH units, both 17pts a hit. Yay! It's not like I'm studying for a final exam or anything...

 matphat wrote:
Woof. I'm really disappointed to see Orks moving so damn slowly this edition. One can only assume that their points go lowered to make up for the additional model losses you'll take slogging across the board? If not, I'm not losing hope yet as I assume we'll get something to equalize that?

I dunno, I prefer Battle Wagons anyway...

You'll also be losing less because you'll get your save more often, are largely immune to morale if you have some horde units to create mob bubbles of 20-30 leadership, and a lot of traditional anti-infantry weapons are now wounding you on 3+ instead of 2+ (S6-7). Oh, and templates for everyone are generally hitting less total models than they potentially could (so feel free to start using movement trays for your foot sloggers).

The mechanical structure of the game did a lot to make low-end saves and T4 worthwhile again. Orks can now use large mobs to buff army morale, and a lot of horde-killing weaponry is less effective against tough hordes than it used to be.

This edition changes a lot, it's hard to contextualize it based on a previous edition's hangups. Besides, with a re-rollable charge distance, Orks may not be as slow as they seem.

if those rumors about DA are true I will be SO happy!

 Cephalobeard wrote:
People with indexes seem to be indicating no chapter tactics are in the books. That's... Worrying.

Did you really think they were going to stay? Legions, marks, chapter tactics, etc. will ALL be gone. Maybe they will give them back to us in later books, but there was no way they were going to do that.

 matphat wrote:
Woof. I'm really disappointed to see Orks moving so damn slowly this edition. One can only assume that their points go lowered to make up for the additional model losses you'll take slogging across the board? If not, I'm not losing hope yet as I assume we'll get something to equalize that?

I dunno, I prefer Battle Wagons anyway...

It also seems the ork in mega armour will have 7 wounds which seems pretty low as I think standard characters seem to have a bit more than a standard warboss. Why does GW seem to hate orks? Overall they seem to have just being ignored in this update with them going "Do orks need a balance?... Nah! Let's just give them everything the same and tell people it's new! Look guys you get a bubble of invulv saves with your Mek! You never had that before!!!" When the fact is we did and now our Big meks can't move fast enough to make it useful... I thought we could at least get our full 6" or more! Orks are not super heavy lugging space marines! Their basically pure muscle genetically built for war!

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 nintura wrote:
I find it disparaging that again, loyal space marine captains have more wounds than chaos space marine characters....

Time to stop snorting warp dust and hit the gym?

I'm sure when they get around to updating them into newer, more tainted models they'll see a stat jump.

Khàrn has a new model though. Its big. It screams more wounds than a basic marine cap. It seems very stupid he onky has 5 where as most characters have had 6 or more wounds

 Cephalobeard wrote:
People with indexes seem to be indicating no chapter tactics are in the books. That's... Worrying.

Assuming it'll be in the actual Codex when it comes out. They already noted that Angels of Death will see a new version.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Hmm. I may mathammer Berzerkers vs Death company when I have some time tonight. Two classic dead 'ard HtH units, both 17pts a hit. Yay! It's not like I'm studying for a final exam or anything...

well they have 'black rage' which i dont think we know what that does

Woof. I'm really disappointed to see Orks moving so damn slowly this edition.

They can move, run, shoot, and charge with a reroll. What else do you want?

 matphat wrote:
Woof. I'm really disappointed to see Orks moving so damn slowly this edition. One can only assume that their points go lowered to make up for the additional model losses you'll take slogging across the board? If not, I'm not losing hope yet as I assume we'll get something to equalize that?

I dunno, I prefer Battle Wagons anyway...

People assume it's made up with the d6 advance we will do because of waaaghhh!!! However we had that last ed and boy blobs are still to slow. Imho this will be the ork speedfreak edition. Bikes lots of bikes characters on bikes because characters don't have abilities outside of transports.

Requizen wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
People with indexes seem to be indicating no chapter tactics are in the books. That's... Worrying.

Assuming it'll be in the actual Codex when it comes out. They already noted that Angels of Death will see a new version.

It's possible. As someone who plays a FW chapter, here's hoping they update theirs as well.

FW will, but at their own pace, as with most things.

 lolman1c wrote:

 matphat wrote:
Woof. I'm really disappointed to see Orks moving so damn slowly this edition. One can only assume that their points go lowered to make up for the additional model losses you'll take slogging across the board? If not, I'm not losing hope yet as I assume we'll get something to equalize that?

I dunno, I prefer Battle Wagons anyway...

It also seems the ork in mega armour will have 7 wounds which seems pretty low as I think standard characters seem to have a bit more than a standard warboss. Why does GW seem to hate orks? Overall they seem to have just being ignored in this update with them going "Do orks need a balance?... Nah! Let's just give them everything the same and tell people it's new! Look guys you get a bubble of invulv saves with your Mek! You never had that before!!!" When the fact is we did and now our Big meks can't move fast enough to make it useful... I thought we could at least get our full 6" or more! Orks are not super heavy lugging space marines! Their basically pure muscle genetically built for war!

Not too sure about your comment on characters getting more wounds. I just looked at the Abaddon the Despoiler leak and he also has 7 wounds.

 matphat wrote:
Woof. I'm really disappointed to see Orks moving so damn slowly this edition. One can only assume that their points go lowered to make up for the additional model losses you'll take slogging across the board? If not, I'm not losing hope yet as I assume we'll get something to equalize that?

I dunno, I prefer Battle Wagons anyway...

It's because they can re-roll charge (and maybe Advance?) rolls and, with a Warboss, can Advance and charge (except it now works every turn and you don't need a hyper expensive detachment to do it!) Them moving 1" slower than they used to is to balance out how easy it is to get into combat once they close with an enemy army. Consider also that you no longer take casualties from the front of the unit.

Also, you're forgetting the hyper buffed Mob Rule which now makes Orks invulnerable to Morale in larger unit sizes, and even at 10 or so strong they have better Leadership than before and don't get screwed over by models dying to Pinning/Fear/Morale/etc tests. They also get their 6+ saves against way more weapons than they used to.

Orks are obviously in a way better spot than they used to be.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
People with indexes seem to be indicating no chapter tactics are in the books. That's... Worrying.

Pretty sure they said CT are just going to be stratagems. Would expect them in the future codices.

Caederes wrote:

 matphat wrote:
Woof. I'm really disappointed to see Orks moving so damn slowly this edition. One can only assume that their points go lowered to make up for the additional model losses you'll take slogging across the board? If not, I'm not losing hope yet as I assume we'll get something to equalize that?

I dunno, I prefer Battle Wagons anyway...

It's because they can re-roll charge (and maybe Advance?) rolls and, with a Warboss, can Advance and charge (except it now works every turn and you don't need a hyper expensive detachment to do it!) Them moving 1" slower than they used to is to balance out how easy it is to get into combat once they close with an enemy army. Consider also that you no longer take casualties from the front of the unit.

Also, you're forgetting the hyper buffed Mob Rule which now makes Orks invulnerable to Morale in larger unit sizes, and even at 10 or so strong they have better Leadership than before and don't get screwed over by models dying to Pinning/Fear/Morale/etc tests. They also get their 6+ saves against way more weapons than they used to.

Orks are obviously in a way better spot than they used to be.

Yeah, it seems I missed some of these more salient features from recent updates.

I'm also getting the feeling that melee Orks are going to see a come back? If so, my 130 Assault on Black Reach slugga choppa boyz are finally going to see some action after 6 years.

 Flood wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
People with indexes seem to be indicating no chapter tactics are in the books. That's... Worrying.

Pretty sure they said CT are just going to be stratagems. Would expect them in the future codices.

Indeed there's neither chapter tactics nor legion tactics. Nor slaaneshi nor tzeenthchian powers. only generic and nurgle. My guess is that they will release them "soon".

 greggles wrote:

Woof. I'm really disappointed to see Orks moving so damn slowly this edition.

They can move, run, shoot, and charge with a reroll. What else do you want?

Well considering missions are still the same run across the board and grab this objective or kill point and haven't changed this edition like every tournament was already doing. And orks already had move run and charge. I know you played greentide yourself and a giant blob of fearless boys with 5+ fnp, move run charge (w reroll) each turn and mass powerklaws with look out sir was already to slow when we were moving 6in base movement. I doubt lowering our movement to 5in and keeping the same movement buffs made us faster.

So the new orks of hey take 30 footsloggin orks and a painboy and a warboss and have a slower, worse morale and worse fnp save isn't really what I consider a buff.

lolman1c wrote:

It also seems the ork in mega armour will have 7 wounds which seems pretty low as I think standard characters seem to have a bit more than a standard warboss. Why does GW seem to hate orks? Overall they seem to have just being ignored in this update with them going "Do orks need a balance?... Nah! Let's just give them everything the same and tell people it's new! Look guys you get a bubble of invulv saves with your Mek! You never had that before!!!" When the fact is we did and now our Big meks can't move fast enough to make it useful... I thought we could at least get our full 6" or more! Orks are not super heavy lugging space marines! Their basically pure muscle genetically built for war!

Wrong. Abaddon the bloomin' Despoiler has 7 Wounds. The Primaris Captain has 6 Wounds. Your Warboss in Mega Armor has as many wounds as the most powerful Chaos Space Marine alive, and more than a shiny new Primaris Captain. Quit your whining.

You are being INCREDIBLY misleading. The invulnerable bubble only worked for MODELS within range before, now it works for UNITS in range meaning you can easily spread it to entire hordes at a time.

Also, you can now run and charge in EVERY turn, and not just one turn (outside of that crappy super detachment with the absurdly high minimum requirements). Losing 1" in exchange for actually getting a 6+ save against the likes of boltguns, being base Strength 4 (or 5 on Nobz), having a WAY better Mob Rule system and hitting on 3+ against all with your basic Boyz is a trade-off I'd take any day.

gungo wrote:
People assume it's made up with the d6 advance we will do because of waaaghhh!!! However we had that last ed and boy blobs are still to slow. Imho this will be the ork speedfreak edition. Bikes lots of bikes characters on bikes because characters don't have abilities outside of transports.

Waaaagh! (Advance/Run and charge) used to be a once-per-game ability, now it can be used every turn from what I can tell. "But you could get to use it every turn in a detachment"; yeah, a detachment with a minimum cost of something like 1000 points that left very little room to customize your build...

Let's not forget that you no longer take casualties from the front and Orks will generally get their armor saves now which is HUGE for horde armies. Once they get there, they hit harder than ever before as they hit anything on a 3+ (usually it was 4+) and are base Strength 4 rather than only on the charge.

Seriously, I get that Ork players have had it rough for a while, but are you that blind that you can't see how good these overall changes are when they slap you in the face like this?

 Cephalobeard wrote:
People with indexes seem to be indicating no chapter tactics are in the books. That's... Worrying.

Everyone will have the equivalent to Chapter Tactics when they receive a Codex.

Not sure if this was discussed yet, but can someone help me out here? How on earth are Khorne Berzerkers Power Level 5 compared to Death Company at Power Level 9? Not only that, Berzerkers are 1 point cheaper, have a better statline, and fight twice in assault. Um, what?

Caederes wrote:

lolman1c wrote:

It also seems the ork in mega armour will have 7 wounds which seems pretty low as I think standard characters seem to have a bit more than a standard warboss. Why does GW seem to hate orks? Overall they seem to have just being ignored in this update with them going "Do orks need a balance?... Nah! Let's just give them everything the same and tell people it's new! Look guys you get a bubble of invulv saves with your Mek! You never had that before!!!" When the fact is we did and now our Big meks can't move fast enough to make it useful... I thought we could at least get our full 6" or more! Orks are not super heavy lugging space marines! Their basically pure muscle genetically built for war!

Wrong. Abaddon the bloomin' Despoiler has 7 Wounds. The Primaris Captain has 6 Wounds. Your Warboss in Mega Armor has as many wounds as the most powerful Chaos Space Marine alive, and more than a shiny new Primaris Captain. Quit your whining.

You are being INCREDIBLY misleading. The invulnerable bubble only worked for MODELS within range before, now it works for UNITS in range meaning you can easily spread it to entire hordes at a time.

Also, you can now run and charge in EVERY turn, and not just one turn (outside of that crappy super detachment with the absurdly high minimum requirements). Losing 1" in exchange for actually getting a 6+ save against the likes of boltguns, being base Strength 4 (or 5 on Nobz), having a WAY better Mob Rule system and hitting on 3+ against all with your basic Boyz is a trade-off I'd take any day.

gungo wrote:
People assume it's made up with the d6 advance we will do because of waaaghhh!!! However we had that last ed and boy blobs are still to slow. Imho this will be the ork speedfreak edition. Bikes lots of bikes characters on bikes because characters don't have abilities outside of transports.

Waaaagh! (Advance/Run and charge) used to be a once-per-game ability, now it can be used every turn from what I can tell. "But you could get to use it every turn in a detachment"; yeah, a detachment with a minimum cost of something like 1000 points that left very little room to customize your build...

Let's not forget that you no longer take casualties from the front and Orks will generally get their armor saves now which is HUGE for horde armies. Once they get there, they hit harder than ever before as they hit anything on a 3+ (usually it was 4+) and are base Strength 4 rather than only on the charge.

Seriously, I get that Ork players have had it rough for a while, but are you that blind that you can't see how good these overall changes are when they slap you in the face like this?

This is the post I needed to see. Well, this and a few of the others above. Feeling a bit better and about to dust off the boyz, give em a spruce up and prepare for the release.

Caederes wrote:

lolman1c wrote:

It also seems the ork in mega armour will have 7 wounds which seems pretty low as I think standard characters seem to have a bit more than a standard warboss. Why does GW seem to hate orks? Overall they seem to have just being ignored in this update with them going "Do orks need a balance?... Nah! Let's just give them everything the same and tell people it's new! Look guys you get a bubble of invulv saves with your Mek! You never had that before!!!" When the fact is we did and now our Big meks can't move fast enough to make it useful... I thought we could at least get our full 6" or more! Orks are not super heavy lugging space marines! Their basically pure muscle genetically built for war!

Wrong. Abaddon the bloomin' Despoiler has 7 Wounds. The Primaris Captain has 6 Wounds. Your Warboss in Mega Armor has as many wounds as the most powerful Chaos Space Marine alive, and more than a shiny new Primaris Captain. Quit your whining.

You are being INCREDIBLY misleading. The invulnerable bubble only worked for MODELS within range before, now it works for UNITS in range meaning you can easily spread it to entire hordes at a time.

Also, you can now run and charge in EVERY turn, and not just one turn (outside of that crappy super detachment with the absurdly high minimum requirements). Losing 1" in exchange for actually getting a 6+ save against the likes of boltguns, being base Strength 4 (or 5 on Nobz), having a WAY better Mob Rule system and hitting on 3+ against all with your basic Boyz is a trade-off I'd take any day.

gungo wrote:
People assume it's made up with the d6 advance we will do because of waaaghhh!!! However we had that last ed and boy blobs are still to slow. Imho this will be the ork speedfreak edition. Bikes lots of bikes characters on bikes because characters don't have abilities outside of transports.

Waaaagh! (Advance/Run and charge) used to be a once-per-game ability, now it can be used every turn from what I can tell. "But you could get to use it every turn in a detachment"; yeah, a detachment with a minimum cost of something like 1000 points that left very little room to customize your build...

Let's not forget that you no longer take casualties from the front and Orks will generally get their armor saves now which is HUGE for horde armies. Once they get there, they hit harder than ever before as they hit anything on a 3+ (usually it was 4+) and are base Strength 4 rather than only on the charge.

Seriously, I get that Ork players have had it rough for a while, but are you that blind that you can't see how good these overall changes are when they slap you in the face like this?

there was several detachments with multiple waaaghs however greentide was the most useful however I played the ghaz council w the horde detachment which also had multiple waaghs regardless the point was in both detachments orks were still to slow to win the objective game. Lowering our movement doesn't help. And this edition still pushes orks into a 30 model horde build and is worse then we were. Im not complaining about offense with orks we are better. We did lose the HoW and fearless but the entire setup of this new edition is the same mechanic as greentide. Horde of boys, painboy, warboss, on foot with move run charge. It was to slow before it's not faster all of a sudden this edition becaUse we got a lower base move. My second gripe is with matched play missions hugely favoring elite mobile armies.... orks are NOT mobile this edition. We are so far outside of a speed freak list one of the slowest non-range armies.

And don't forget, all the ork weapons are assault weapons (for infantry). So they can advance and shoot at a -1. 6's mean nothing to orks

So there you have a horde, running, shooting the entire way, screaming bloody murder as they hit the fleshy meat bags.

And remember, we get to go first!!!!! (outside of some abilities of enemy units and strategems)

Lots of chaos stuff:
http://imgur.com/a/m4L2J

 theharrower wrote:
Not sure if this was discussed yet, but can someone help me out here? How on earth are Khorne Berzerkers Power Level 5 compared to Death Company at Power Level 9? Not only that, Berzerkers are 1 point cheaper, have a better statline, and fight twice in assault. Um, what?

Death company has better access to sinergies? The only sinergy of Khorne Berzerkers is Kharn... and to benefit from that sinergy they need to be in range of "The Betrayer" rule. You can't compare in a vacumm a unit of one 100% meele army as Khorne to a unit of a meele-specialized variant of a much more flexible faction as are Space Marines Blood Angels.
Plus they have Jumpacks and much more variety in weapons. Power Level takes an average of the upgrades you can take. And Death Company can take much more upgrades+Black Rage.

 Latro_ wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Hmm. I may mathammer Berzerkers vs Death company when I have some time tonight. Two classic dead 'ard HtH units, both 17pts a hit. Yay! It's not like I'm studying for a final exam or anything...

well they have 'black rage' which i dont think we know what that does

Yeah we do! It's +1A on the charge and an additional 6+ save against any wound taken (not just that one round, any time).

Huh. So I started some mathammering. It's kind of wacky, the chainsword and Chainaxe options come out identically at 4.36 W against MEQ targets (not accounting for DttFE). The Axe is a little better against TEQ, It makes me wonder if I didn't carry a zero or something though. (That's for one round of combat from 10 Berzerkers, no other upgrades or whatnot).

Even wackier. The DC, with chainswords on the charge, do the exact same damage to MEQ targets in that one round of combat. So the difference is the Berserkers entire extra round of combat. I guess we know who wins that comparison.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And yeah, the DC have way more buffs they can stack on.