40k New Edition Summary - 14th June 17: Lord Duncan paints Primaris in Gravis/non-codex SM focus

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**theharrower**

strepp wrote:
Random charges increase the complexity of the decisions a player has to make regarding movement and board control.

Considering that many anti-infantry weapons are optimal < 12" (rapid fire weapons, flamers, etc.), a player with a shooty unit has a decision to make: do you go danger close to gain the full effect of your weapons, or do you stay outside in safety? Charge ranges complicate this decision because they change the risk associated with moving:

Charges being double the movement value make a static danger zone around a unit - enter the zone, will be charged.
Charges being 2D6 create a variable danger zone - the deeper into the zone, the greater the likelihood of being charged.

Because of the way the probability works on 2D6, you generate a curve about an average of 7, making the chance of moving at least 7" greater than 6" or less. This way, being within 11" of a CC unit is safer than being within 10", and so on.

The probability for M+D6 is actually flat: you have as much chance of moving a marine 7" as you do 12", which I would argue is randomness for randomness' sake more than anything.

This. Someone that understands probability and board control. Praise the Emperor! Although I do think needing to come within an inch of a model is odd. I would prefer base to base and don't understand why the distinction here. I'd imagine there is something else we are missing.

I'm more annoyed by the loss of an extra attack when charging. I get it, striking first is a big boon, but you are going to get shot in the face to do it. I'm not going to judge the rules in a vacuum as we don't have enough info yet, but at the moment it certainly doesn't seem like assault is on par with shooting.

**theharrower**

Lord Kragan wrote:
Kijamon wrote:
Models from the waist up are quite nice, from the waist down look like sigmarites and so it's a poor design.

The story hasn't moved far enough along to merit Marines 2.0 and they just seem very shoe horned and forced in. They could have milked this for months and possibly years before unleashing the kit.

Guilliman starts a secret project with Cawl but he needs supplies.

On the way to one place the Orks attack, bigger and better than ever they are led by a giant warboss - is he the new Beast? Could even be Ghazgull with a new cool model but put a new unit of big boys out to support the range.

They head to The Rock for these super secret supplies. They need the Lion's blood? How did they know? Cypher told them? Spooky. Oh no a nid invasion has happened and the Rock is in peril. Lots of new nid stuff.

They head to the Damocles gulf - what's this? mutated tau? New kit for them?

Etc etc and then once you've established how hard they fought for the materials, they get new marines.

Instead we've gone - Fenris damaged, Ultramar damaged - NEW MARINES TO SAVE THE DAY

No offense, but your idea is horrible. Your argument is basically make the narrative spend months/years just for the sake of bringing them, that sounds an appalling concept to me, specially to non-marine players.

I hate to pile on here, but I have to agree. People can't stand the long drawn out weeks until the new edition is dropped. How would they react to some fluff being drawn out for years until models are released? No only that, how many people that play are even into the fluff? A lot of players I know just play the game. They don't follow the larger story.

**theharrower**

I think I broke my F5 key...

**theharrower**

Thebiggesthat wrote:
Well the Blood Angels are screwed! That piece of artwork is cool as hell though

No we aren't. We are always on the brink. Nothing Mephiston and the Death Company can't handle.

**theharrower**

Imateria wrote:

Yeah, it always annoyed me how Trygons usually came on at the same time as, or after, everything else making their tunnel completely useless. I can see this as a brilliant way to get a horde of Hormagaunts into battle with the rear lines of an enemy turn 2 with only a 6" charge (because they're placed within 3" of the Trygon) and leaving the only room for your opponent to fall back being towards the rest of the army.

It's still 9". The unit accompanying the Trygon needs to be 9" away from enemy models.

**theharrower**

Leth wrote:
From the demon article does anyone else think the native +1 ATK for charging might be gone?

They said that "They have this special rule that allows them to get +1 attack when they charge!"

Noticed that. It's gone.

Pretty sure the +1 attack for having a pistol and a close combat weapon is gone as well. Instead, pistols shoot into close combat during the shooting phase. Just speculation on my part.

**theharrower**

tneva82 wrote:

Problem is this went too far. Extremes are not good. Now there's zero variance with tervigon for example. 100% trustworthy. Totally unrealistic. Stupid godview

Going from too far one way to too far other way does not result in gappy medium. Just another extreme. Extremes either way are bad.

Good point and while I agree that extremes aren't good, I think it's a bit premature to judge it now. This edition pretty much is a hard reset. Time will tell.

**theharrower**

So glad tank shock is gone. If vehicles act like other models in close combat, does that mean they can't fire and have to withdraw? Huge boon for assault armies if so.

**theharrower**

Matt.Kingsley wrote:
Summary:

2nd Warhammer Live Q&A wrote:

Spoiler:

> Primaris Marines can be made from preexisting Marines.
> Blood Angel Primaris Marines are still affected by Red Thirst (and potentially Black Rage).
> Mk IX Armour is a mystery. What happened to it? They aren't telling us (yet).
> Guilliman *might* make some changes to the Codex Astartes.
> Primaris Marines are more resilient to Chaos, but can potentially be corrupted by chaos still .
> More Primarchs will return (a cowled one, so Mortarion most likely).

> Consolidating into Combat.
> Power Fists and the like are -1 To Hit.
> You can either pick psychic powers from the chart or roll (like in Age of Sigmar).
> Perils of the Warp cuases Mortal Wounds.
> There's no amry specific Detachments - only army specific stratagems. Basic Detachments apparently cover everything already.
> Imperial Fist stratagem can make them better at shooting. White Scars can us a stratgem to Hit & Run.
> Factions can also use their Command Points before deployment to change how their army is constructed (?).
> Unqiue Strategems are based on main Keywords in your Detachments.
> Tactical Reserves is NOT supersceded by any army rules.
> Characters can still travel in tranports with other units.
> Transports can carry multiple units.
> What can be transported is based on Keywords (like Infantry).
> How to keep characters safe: Almost all Command Squads have rules that allows them to intercept wounds from characters.
> Drop Pods: they and the units they contain must be over 9" away from enemies when deployed.
> Grav hasn't neccerssarily be toned down, but it should still be balanced.
> Invulnerable saves work basically the same as they do now.
> Many armies have abilities that allows them to save wounds after Armour or Invulnerable saves (Dark Eldar get Power From Pain, Disgustingly Resilient for Nurgle Daemons). These saves occur after damage, so if an attack causes 5 damage you need to make 5 seperate secondary saves.
> Defender decides casualties - no longer directional.
> Primaris Marines and normal Marines tend to have different functions (Tacticals vs Intercessor are used as an example).
> Mix between totally new psychic powers and adaptation of pre-existing and classic powers (though they may function differently).
> Terminators are going to feel like Terminators.

> They will collect feedback through Facebook and eventually through the Warhammer Community site where everyone can vote on it. Also feedback through events and Twitch.tv.
> GW will still be involved with the tournament scene, especially with major tournaments. Apparently they're going to be involved more.
> They will continue to playtest the game post-release, both for Matched and Narrative standpoints.

> Pete Foley does, indeed, thin his paints.

I don't think I missed anything.

EDIT: Fixing spelling errors.

You missed vehicles locked in close combat can't shoot. Melee armies are faster and do more damage.

**theharrower**

Spoiler:

I read or heard it somewhere that if a vehicle is destroyed with troops in them, you roll a D6 for each model and they are removed on a 1-3. I believe it was on the Frontline Gaming podcast.

So charging a vehicle into close combat and disembarking troops next turn will be a thing. It'll just be dangerous if you lose the vehicle.

**theharrower**

Loopstah wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:

Each damage roll does a max of whatever the max wounds is of the unit.

So firghting termies:

Lascannon does 4 damage, 2 damage added to pool
Lascannon does 1 damage, 1 damage added to pool
Lascannon does 2 damage, 2 damage added to pool

There are now 5 wounds to distribute starting with a model of your choice and applying wounds until the model is dead.

Best guess anyway.

It sounds more like it will be:

Lascannon does 4 damage, remove a Terminator, extra wounds are lost.
Lascannon does 1 damage, allocate the damage to a Terminator (they now have 1 wound left)
Lascannon does 2 damage, allocate the damage to the wounded Terminator (they now die), the extra wound is lost.

You lose two Terminators with no wounds left over.

Definitely this. Defender allocates damage. Damage is going to go to wounded models first and they already said there is no wounds pool. You'll just roll for damage when a model fails a save. Seems fairly straight forward to me.

**theharrower**

Bottle wrote:
Rippy wrote:
What is confusing here sorry? Attacker rolls to hit and wound on the weapon against the squad of his choice.
Defender then chooses who in that squad takes the wound, though has to start with the wounded model.

The attacker has to declare all targets from weapons within in squad prior to start shooting though.(Ie 6 bolters against that squad, multi-melta against that tank etc)

The confusion is as follows:

I shoot with my Battlecannon at Tyranid Warriors and get 6 shots. All wounds. All saves failed. I roll for damage and get 1,2,2,3,3,3 wounds from the D3 rolls.

Does the Tyranid player get to choose the order the 1,2,2,3,3,3 get applied? And so chooses 3,3 (waste 2 wounds), 3,2 (waste 1 wound), 2,1 (resulting in 2 dead Warriors and one on a single wound remaining).

If it's the case it leads to split fire being beneficial to pick off multiple wounded models across multiple units and then split firing again from a second unit to maximise damage potential (as per my example above).

You roll for damage after a model fails a save. Why would you roll damage prior?

**theharrower**

krazynadechukr wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Imateria wrote:
From what I know (friend who worked for GW and still has contacts in the company) we're looking at a June 10th release for 8th.

Release or pre-order?
Pre order

I've heard the same with a release on the 17th.

**theharrower**

I really like that they are including these rules in the core rulebook. It'll make these types of games much more common.

**theharrower**

changemod wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
changemod wrote:
Sounds like true line of sight is only getting stronger. Shame, I can't think of anything that causes more arguments on the tabletop.

Its a simple enough system. Can the model see the unit? If not sure, then no. If yes then shoot. You either see the unit or you don't see the unit. If you can sorta see, then you can see.

Of course it's simple, but that's not what I said: I said it causes a tremendous amount of arguments. The biggest is if something counts as obscuring, but I've also seen near-unresolvable standoffs over how many models in a unit can be seen through small cracks, especially when terrain keeps you from putting your head close enough to where the model is.

Effects of being in area terrain or drawing a line through terrain to resolve cover effects is a lot cleaner for that kind of thing.

A $10 laser pointer solves 99% of those problems. Just saying...

**theharrower**

KommissarKiln wrote:
Where is there mention of a grenade buff? Didn't see it in any of the links on the front page, but I suppose it's in an article as more of an afterthought rather than the main topic?

In the cities of death article:

It’s not going all Infantry’s way of course. There are solutions to dug-in enemies. Grenades for example. Any Grenade thrown at a unit in ruins will always count as having rolled the maximum number of shots (6, in the case of a frag grenade) and can reroll to wound thanks to the “Fire in the Hole” mission rule.

**theharrower**

Azazelx wrote:
ruprecht wrote:
Eyjio wrote:
[So your complaint is that the core rules are cheaper, but if you add in the "codex" cost for 8th edition and not for any other editions, it's more expensive? Great logic there.

No, my complaint is that the supposedly "free rules" release of 40k would cost me over $300 on launch day just for rules. Great reading there.

No, the problem is that you expected every part of the rules for free, which based on both the existing AoS model which also has free core rules and unit profiles - and is not exactly hard to find information on and also the information that we'd already been given was not realistic or likely, so I'm going with wilful ignorance on your part.

Charging for some of the rules is a tad bait and switchy. Personally, I don't care they need to make money, but I can understand why some people are a bit miffed. Really though, you can't complain about the pricing on this. The amount of win included in the boxed set is insane. This is far better than past GW edition releases.

**theharrower**

Deadshot wrote:
ClockworkZion wrote:
Deadshot wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
xttz wrote:
Previews:

Spoiler:

Ok so I presume flyers don't have to leave the table and return based on the wording for fly. This is awesome.

I wonder if 90 degree max pivot is gone for flyers, since you can't choose to fly off it doesn't make sense for them to get into a situation where they're forced into a corner and die.

No need to wonder, as you can see the Movement page above already.

That doesn't clear up flyers though. If flyers are still (somehow) restricted to that same limited turning, they will quickly go out of fashion as people learn that having a model that comes on for 1 turn then flies into oblivion is terrible.

Any model in any direction up to their max movemen stat is unclear how? It looks like for the sake if simplicity fliers work like skimmers.

Always exceptions to the rule. 90 degrees was an exception Flyers had to normal pivoting rules. It also made sense (how does a jet moving at 500+MPH turn on the spot without turning into VTOL mode and slowing way down and need to build speed up again). If that's as simple as it gets (Assume the flyer has VTOL pivoted or wheeled about) I'm fine with that, I'm just wondering whether FLyers will yet again be an exception to this normal pivoting rule.

Furthermore, if they ARE indeed able to turn as they please, how is any model going to move off the board and be destroyed? It would be different if a flyer could only turn a certain amount because you could be forced into a corner by bad foresight, but if they can just turn 180 and come back the way then there'll never be a situation where a model moves off on purpose.

I haven't seen any exceptions yet in this edition. There aren't going to be any rules for 90 degree pivots. Doesn't make any sense. As to how does a model move off the board and get destroyed? Simple. Flyer can't be placed because miniatures are in the way regardless of how it moves. With nowhere left to go, you fly off the table. Not that uncommon of a scenario.

**theharrower**

Spoiler:

But this has been known from first teasers. Why complain now?

Not complaining, but it isn't exactly as advertised. If you don't get points for the units or stratagems, you can kinda play, but not like one could in the past. I'm okay with it, but I understand why some people are miffed.

So I guess it'll be Faction Focus: Space Marines today, huh? Just a guess, but that would make the most sense.

**theharrower**

Daedalus81 wrote:
I find it hard to think that core rules will be free, but that we'll have no unit rules.

You can't do anything with free core rules and nothing else. I fully expect "scrolls" with power levels.

I expect power levels with points being in the Indexes. It did say that stratagems weren't included which is an odd choice. So you are getting a stripped down version of the game. Again, not complaining, but I can understand why people aren't happy.

"Also, while we’re on the subject of rules, we’ve some great news – the core rules for Warhammer 40,000 will be available for free! You’ll be able to download the Battle Primer PDF on games-workshop.com and warhammer40000.com from June 17th.

Current players will probably still want to pick up either the full Warhammer 40,000 book or the Dark Imperium box set though, as this gets you the Advanced Rules sections, loads more missions, as well as stratagems for open, narrative and matched play and of course, over 100 pages of new lore and background on the shape of the galaxy in the new Warhammer 40,000."

**theharrower**

tneva82 wrote:
Not as advertised? Exactly as said from day 1

Um, no. Did they say if you want all the missions or if you want to be able to use stratagems you'll have to buy the rules? No they didn't. They said the rules will be free.

**theharrower**

Deadshot wrote:
theharrower wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
Not as advertised? Exactly as said from day 1

Um, no. Did they say if you want all the missions or if you want to be able to use stratagems you'll have to buy the rules? No they didn't. They said the rules will be free.

Did they say "The rules will be free" or did they say "rules will be free." The first encompasses all rules, the second only some rules.

This is from the FAQ:

How can I get the rules?
We’re going to make it easier than ever to get your hands on the rules and start playing. The core rules for the game will be free, and you’ll have several options on how you get your hands on the full rulebook. Watch this space for more.

With no stratagems and not all the missions, they are giving us more of a 40K lite. You either feel it was a bit misleading or you don't. I personally do. In any case, life moves on. Not a big deal and I'm done posting about it.

**theharrower**

Wulfey wrote:
The phaseout is happening. Period. Rhino/Landraider/Landspeeder/Razorback are all 10+ years old. A lot of money to be had in making new kits for those.

I agree 100%. I'm sure we will see a Primaris Rhino soon enough. Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long to reboot the Space Marines line.

**theharrower**

keltikhoa wrote:
theharrower wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
The phaseout is happening. Period. Rhino/Landraider/Landspeeder/Razorback are all 10+ years old. A lot of money to be had in making new kits for those.

I agree 100%. I'm sure we will see a Primaris Rhino soon enough. Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long to reboot the Space Marines line.

Actually... the current Rhino is to scale for SoB. So once this phaseout happens they just repackage the current model, add a price hike, and call it a sororitas pattern. Then Sisters will officially have a plastic model that is just for them!

That's brilliant! You should probably delete your post before someone at GW sees it...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

casvalremdeikun wrote:

theharrower wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
The phaseout is happening. Period. Rhino/Landraider/Landspeeder/Razorback are all 10+ years old. A lot of money to be had in making new kits for those.

I agree 100%. I'm sure we will see a Primaris Rhino soon enough. Honestly, I'm surprised it took this long to reboot the Space Marines line.

There already is a Primaris Rhino though...

Oh yeah, forgot about that silly thing. Wasn't it a Rhino Primaris though? Totally different! Ha. I guess for now we can call it a Restartes Rhino. I'm sure they'll come up with some new crazy high gothic name for it.

**theharrower**

ClockworkZion wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/05/24/new-warhammer-40000-a-forge-world-datasheet-may24gw-homepage-post-4/

Not familiar with a lot of the Forge World stuff, but isn't this way over the top? Every weapon does more than 1 damage except for the one that does mortal wounds and skips the to wound roll.

**theharrower**

NivlacSupreme wrote:
So... I'm not going to be playing 8th.

Stupid friends changing their stupid minds...

Make new friends!

**theharrower**

Vorian wrote:
streetsamurai wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Requizen wrote:

You are the only one assuming that Primaris will replace regular marines and that old ones will just disappear.

No he is not. This will abso-fething-lutely happen. Personally I don't mind, as I really like the new models, but let's not kid ourselves; it is merely a question of how fast it will happen rather than whether it will happen. Some old marine kits may be maintained as part of the HH line, but 40K will eventually become primaris only.

exactly, those who thinks that the two range of almost exactly similar marines will be supported in the future are deluding themselves

It's obviously ridiculous.

If that were the case they'd have done it ages ago with different ranges for Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Grey Knights and Deathwatch rather than stick with just the standard Marine range.

Make no mistake, the Space Marines line is eventually getting rebooted. You'd have to be crazy to think otherwise. I wouldn't be surprised if they kept the line around for a few years, but you aren't going to see any more mark VIII marines released. It would be nice if we got some fluff where some chapters, or a new chapter, decided not to trust the Primaris Marines and they kept the Adeptus Secondus around. Doubtful that will happen tho.

**theharrower**

Lord Kragan wrote:
So today is Orks faction focus. What will be your thoughts.

I think we'll see a lot of bonuses for hordes. Would not be surprised if the number of models in the units add to their attacks. I hope they are amazing in close combat with lots of dakka dakka!

I'm not the type of person that would play Orks, but I always enjoyed playing against them. Bad thing is I would destroy them at their own game (assault). I really hope they are good and fun to play against. Ork players are crazy. Love those guys. They need an army that represents them well..

**theharrower**

Vorian wrote:
Coyote81 wrote:
Vorian wrote:
Pretty sure power level is going to work exactly like the system in AoS, which is a simpler points system

Well the AoS simple point system seems somewhat balanced, a comparison of the power level system so far from what we have seen is very broken if done the AoS. 11 powerlevel for 10x kitted out rubric marines, 16 for that kitted out Leviathan Dreadnought. System broken already.

It's pretty hard to talk balance without a full picture

This. I'd be cautious about thinking Power Level is going to a great indication of anything as well. From accounts of one of the playtesters, Power Level is a "very rough approximation".

**theharrower**

Requizen wrote:
FunJohn wrote:
Requizen wrote:
BrookM wrote:
Looks like seize the initiative is also out.

GOOD. That was a stupid mechanic and I'm glad it's gone.

I kind of hope Underdog comes to Matched Play. It would be interesting to see people bring lower points to tournaments to try and sneak out an advantage. Metagaming at its finest.

It dosen't seem like that much of an advantage though, does it? I get to bring 19 points more then you, and you get to re-roll 1 dice

It's not a point you can spend on anything els, it's a CP re-roll

Rerolls are a big deal. Rerolling that save on your Primarch against a Damage 6 weapon is a big deal. And being able to pick who goes first/second is pretty large as well.

Also note in Victory Conditions, the Underdog wins in the case of a tie, so taking less points actually increases your chances of winning if the game is close.

Indeed they are. I imagine Corbulo will give you extra rerolls.