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 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Aww man. From the email newsletter: 'each Primaris Space Marine is the pinnacle of 10,000 years of science, experimentation, and distilled military knowledge.'

Have they even read the background of 40k?

10,000 years of science? What is this? Star Trek? It's been 10,000 years of inexorable scientific and technological decay as the principles of scientific reasoning have been replaced with religious dogma and fanaticism.

I rolled my eyes out of my socket when I read that specific bit.

Oh absolutely. It was always going to be tricky to get NuMarines in without them being too noblebright, but that comment just displays a fundamental misunderstanding of what situation the 40k universe is in.

Here's hoping that these guys turn out exactly like the last time the Imperium tried to 'improve' Space Marines *cough* cursed founding *cough*.

I suspect it will take a significant amount of headcanon-ing to iron out the noblebright in these guys and actually make them fell like they fit in 40k. Still, I've headcanon-ed worse

 Gashrog wrote:
My money is on it being the culmination of whatever naughty Inqusition-AdMech-Fabius Bile collaboration was going on during the 21st Founding, see the 3rd edition Cursed Founding Index Astartes article:

"Day 38: The laboratorium we discovered contained a plethora of ancient machines, and my heart leapt to see so much techno-arcana preserved in such an undamaged condition. But it was the centre of the laboratoria that demanded my most immediate attention. Connected by vast bundles of pulsing tubes and cables to the machines were six ceiling height incubation tanks. Three were empty, but the others contained amniotic fluid with an enormous human male floating within them. The physiology of these giants put me in mind of Space Marines, but these brutes were far larger than those members of the Adeptus Astartes whom I have laid eyes upon."

"I have performed similar examinations on members of the Adeptus Astartes before this and can say with utter certainty that these subjects are far superior to them in every way."

 Karhedron wrote:
In "Deliverance Lost", Corax was able to develop an improved Geneseed that could turn recruits into full Marines in a matter of weeks. Combat training was imparted as instinctive muscle memory. The original "Raptors" were very successful and the only reason Corax didn't raise a Legion of them was because the Alpha Legion infiltrators contaminated the new geneseed.

Corax was able to improve the geneseed thanks to a psychic download of the necessary knowledge from the Emperor. I think Gulliman's audience with the Emperor probably gave him the same information necessary to create Astartes 2.0 in a similar timeframe.

Between these two examples, and the Emperor's own efforts with the Thunder Warriors, I could easily imagine these new Primaris Marines having similar narrative themes: larger, bred exclusively for war, and subject to mental and emotional issues due to their lack of human interaction early in life.

If the Primaris Marines actually are GROWN in a tube, then they will not have any actual human experience; they will not have known a true childhood. To me, that is the crux of what can happen to them from a thematic perspective. Every current Space Marine would have some knowledge and memories of their childhood, whatever condition it would be, they still had one. By the Primaris Marines not having early interactions with humans, that could cause them to have an ill-affected psyche and cause long term problems to their emotional and psychological health. Unless they are put in the tubes upon recruitment into the Astartes, in which case this entire paragraph is rendered useless.

I get the strong feeling that the Primaris Marines are going to be tied into the Thunder Warriors. I mean, the word "primaris" is related to "prime" and "primary", which means first, one, start, beginning, or early. After the Primarchs (there's that word again!) the Thunder Warriors were used to unify Terra, but were put down before any major galactic conquest due to their unstable psychology (right? Am I remembering this all right?). They were superior in physical might to the Space Marines of the Astartes, but their mental capabilities made them unsuited for conquering and unifying the galaxy. Space Marines are not just super-soldiers, but they are also supposed to be super-craftsmen, super-builders, and super-leaders, which is why we see the Primarchs and Chapters/Legions having traits other than just "super-soldier killing machines". By my recollections, Space Marines were also intended by the Emperor to help lead humanity and set an example, giving them purpose in times of piece (should that ever be reached!). Thunder Warriors were basically killing brutes, and not typically capable for anything beyond total war. By making the Primaris Marines similar to the Thunder Warriors, that allows for potential for tragedy for Guilliman as well to repeat something that his father did, but possibly without the knowledge of what the Primaris Marines will possibly become - wild berserkers who could become a threat to their allies.

Also, considering that the setting for 40K is influenced by the Classical period, in particular the Roman Empire, I could see the current advancements in the fluff to be a recreation of those ancient events. The big Warp rift across the galaxy seems to me a recreation of the splitting of Rome into the East and West Roman Empires, which resulted in all new wars, conflict, and internal politics and fighting that could provide plenty of opportunities for power struggles and civil wars.

Will GW handle any of the new material this way? No clue. But it could be really cool if they did.

Yeah that's going to be my headcanon if they don't do it themselves.

There is nothing new, technology-wise in tye 40k universe. Cawl's 'Primaris Marines' are little more than a resurrection of a flawed and volatile ancient technology for creating powerful killing machines, disguised as a new type of Astartes. How long before these new warriors start to show...interesting...symptoms?

Throw into that mix your idea that they're not just post-human, they were never human in the first place and you might actually get some interesting nuance to them. Beyond the glorious Mary-Sue-Marines they seem to be from what limited info we have now.

I don't actually mean to beat up on the fluff writers on this actually. It must be really hard writing something that appeals to both people who want a bit of (IMHO) unrealistic good-guy noblebright, and people like me who cherish the gritty terribleness of 40k. I must admit, they did a better job than i'd expected with the Ynnari idea (although still not quite to my liking). I'm patiently awaiting more fluff i can twist to suit my vision of what the 40k universe should be

Uh, the idea of there being a decay of science in 40k is largely a joke. The Imperium is fully capable of building the things it made during the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, it simply isn't logistically feasible anymore as it either takes too long or simply doesn't meet the modern means demanded by the changing field of battle.

So possibly a tangent, but given the prominence of the death guard in the trailers, perhaps some of the numarines are going to recieve some of papa nurgled love? Chaos needs some truescale models too. And there's your grimdark if half of the tube marines get infected from the outset.

also it sounds like Cawl's been around since the heresy, tinkering and building, just because gulliman wasn't around, he wasn't beurcraticly able to release his new toys. and THAT sounds very like 40k. having access to weapons and genetics technology that could change the course of the wasr, unable to be released due to berucratic BS


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Point_blank wrote:
So possibly a tangent, but given the prominence of the death guard in the trailers, perhaps some of the numarines are going to recieve some of papa nurgled love? Chaos needs some truescale models too. And there's your grimdark if half of the tube marines get infected from the outset.

it's also possiable that with these new marines GW is gonna feel fine to pump certain chaos marines up on chaos juice to new levels of power. I mean let's look at the intercessor squad carefully. ignoring weapons options, and looking at the core stats that would apply across all Primarius Marines, you have an additional wound granted, and an additional attack (Primaris assault squads could be fun) as well as SLIGHTLY superior kit,

this would be fairly answerable by chaos. and I expect death guard to all have 2 wounds.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Uh, the idea of there being a decay of science in 40k is largely a joke. The Imperium is fully capable of building the things it made during the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, it simply isn't logistically feasible anymore as it either takes too long or simply doesn't meet the modern means demanded by the changing field of battle.

Its like that.
Just because some advanced weapons cannot be made on mass. Say it might take a atrisan a year to make a jet bike. But in same time make 25 regular marine bikes.

Deamnd is too high.

Like you could maybe make storm birds, and Spartans, and marstadons bit demands so high, materal and time is not in excess so you produce what is the best option to supply both quantity and quality not just a 10th total of the regular gear in amazing kit. it only meets a fraction of demand for new war machines.

They can make limited termi suits, some chapters can make limited mk4 but total demand means that most marks are made in mk7 as can be churned out alot quicker.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Uh, the idea of there being a decay of science in 40k is largely a joke. The Imperium is fully capable of building the things it made during the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, it simply isn't logistically feasible anymore as it either takes too long or simply doesn't meet the modern means demanded by the changing field of battle.

Nah i don't buy that at all. The Imperium's a Cargo Cult worshipping the technological and scientific accomplishments of their distant ancestors, stifling invention and free thought due to entrenched dogma and fear of repeating the mistakes that caused their ancestors to fall from grace.

I have a much easier time buying that than 'they could give Marines Volkite Chargers...but they don't because it's cheaper to make Bolters'.

By all means, if that's the interpretation you prefer then you're welcome to it. I just prefer the Ad Mech to be genuinely clever people scrabbling around in the ashes of their civilisation desperately attempting to piece together what little information they can glean from fractured and often daemonically possessed records, rather than bean-counters sitting on vaults of treasure.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Uh, the idea of there being a decay of science in 40k is largely a joke. The Imperium is fully capable of building the things it made during the Great Crusade/Horus Heresy, it simply isn't logistically feasible anymore as it either takes too long or simply doesn't meet the modern means demanded by the changing field of battle.

Nah i don't buy that at all. The Imperium's a Cargo Cult worshipping the technological and scientific accomplishments of their distant ancestors,

Because Machine Spirits and Weapon Spirits are real and they must be pleased or else they can quite literally cease working. Titans alone stand as an excellent example, as their artificial intelligence/warp spirit is able to preserve the consciousness of the Princeps who have piloted it, allowing them to communicate in person with the current pilot via neural links. Weapons such as swords can gain a presence within the warp until they have a mind of their own, and commune with the user. These things are not worshiped because it's a cargo cult, they're worshiped because they can simply refuse to function if not given the proper treatment.

stifling invention and free thought due to entrenched dogma and fear of repeating the mistakes that caused their ancestors to fall from grace.

Except there's still plenty of invention. It isn't stifled, it's a lengthy process because any invention has to be vetted to ensure it doesn't lead to a massive warp incursion followed by everybody dying to Daemonic assault. There has been plenty of technological advances over the thirty-first millennium in the time since from changes to naval doctrine (the Imperium creating smaller and faster ships instead of outdated lumbering behemoths), improvements to power armor, and the mass production of planet-sized star forts.

I have a much easier time buying that than 'they could give Marines Volkite Chargers...but they don't because it's cheaper to make Bolters'.

Which makes it clear you don't know much about logistics. In the modern age we are using incredibly old firearm designs which have advanced little since the 70's, with the AR-15 and AK platforms being slightly improved upon because it's easier to keep the parts simple. Multiple guns have been made in the real world that are utterly superior to the common rifles used by America or Russia- they never see the light of day because of the expense of production and how you would have to change every single part of your chain of production to refit the military. What's best isn't what is made, it's what's the easiest thing to produce that gets used. This is 100% realistic and even a part of real life.

By all means, if that's the interpretation you prefer then you're welcome to it. I just prefer the Ad Mech to be genuinely clever people scrabbling around in the ashes of their civilisation desperately attempting to piece together what little information they can glean from fractured and often daemonically possessed records, rather than bean-counters sitting on vaults of treasure.

This isn't interpretation, this is what is directly canon and constantly referenced. And they are sitting on vaults of treasure, or did you completely miss how the Admech decided to light the entire Damocles Gulf on fire in an experiment after the second Damocles War went poorly?

The idea of the Imperium being a decaying edifice with zero advancement and everything falling apart is a meme that has spread by hearsay. It only really applied to 3rd edition, and possibly 4th.

Perhaps I enjoyed the background more in 3rd or 4th when it was more Cargo Culty, and all of these things about Machine Spirits were suggested and not really explained whether they were true or not, leading you to believe that they could be real or they might not be. Before we ended up with a gradual explaining of all the little murky details until there's no real mystery left.

Different strokes I suppose

The reason I picked Marines and Volkite Chargers specifically is because the logistics example simply does not hold water in that case. There's what, 1.000,000 loyalist Marines total in the galaxy according to official figures? In terms of outfitting and equipping them in real terms that's a pitifully small amount in a galaxy of billions upon billions of Guardsmen alone. Logistically, they could probably equip each Marine with whatever the hell they liked and it wouldn't put a dent in the manufacturing capabilities of the Imperium. It wouldn't even scratch the paint.

Two options there. Either there are far, far more Marines in the galaxy than the official numbers (in which I'd agree with you), or it's because the Ad Mech are suspicious of change in the extreme, to the point that they've been equipping their soldiers in largely the same way for the last 10,000 years.

The idea of the Imperium being a decaying edifice with zero advancement is one of the founding pillars of the 40k universe since Rogue Trader, and has been steadily eroded throughout the years by people needing to sell the latest neat kit beyond 'oh yeah, they found an STC for this one too'.

Of course, that is just my opinion and you're free to completely ignore it of course I'm not even that bitter about the gradual feeling that 40k is selling out its unique feel to chase sales as it drives some truly beautiful kits that I can chop up and make neat little INQ28 gribblies that better fit the grimdarkness I feel gives 40k it's flavour.

I guess I just despair slightly over the continual noble-brighting of 40k. I mean come on, Eldar teaming up with Black Templars to resurrect the Primarch of the Ultramarines for the good of the universe....

Grumble grumble get off my lawn probably getting a little off-topic now anyways

Yeah not liking this new marines stuff so far..

It kinda feels like..

Girlyman: 'Oh btw guys I secretly stole geneseeds from everyone and had this Mechanium duder play with them, So here are some new bigger duders that have kewler bolters than you, that may well have the same flaw as the rest of your mob.. for flavor'

technicly he didn't steal it. the geneseed tithes where always intended to be used in this manner. I mean Gulliman's the guy whom created that rule.

BrianDavion wrote:
technicly he didn't steal it. the geneseed tithes where always intended to be used in this manner. I mean Gulliman's the guy whom created that rule.

No but he did Lie..


Hey guys, we should totally give some geneseeds to mars so they can lock them away and safeguard them just in case the worse happens.

While the whole time actually has his old mate playing around with them....

@Wyzilla: Except the Martians literally killed a guy who knew how to make a perpetual motion machine and lost access as to how to make that tech now.

Look criticising that the Imperium's technological stagnancy is overblown is fine, but acting as if it doesn't exist at all is silly. GW themselves repeat, ad nauseam, that in canon the Imperium suffers from technological stagnancy a great deal, this is a commonly repeated adage in books, acting as if it doesn't exist at all paints too rosy a picture.

 Anemone wrote:
@Wyzilla: Except the Martians literally killed a guy who knew how to make a perpetual motion machine and lost access as to how to make that tech now.

Look criticising that the Imperium's technological stagnancy is overblown is fine, but acting as if it doesn't exist at all is silly. GW themselves repeat, ad nauseam, that in canon the Imperium suffers from technological stagnancy a great deal, this is a commonly repeated adage in books, acting as if it doesn't exist at all paints too rosy a picture.

The Admech has perpetual motion machines en masse. They're those "new" walkers.

And there is a difference between what GW says in sweeping stylized statements that act as openings to books and what is actually demonstrated. Those sweeping statements seem to always come up as grossly false.

Just think of the poor scout companies now. They were Warriors on their home planet as children, recruited at adolescence, transformed through rigorous training and painful implantation. Only through surviving dangerous combat missions, all without wearing a helmet (even the scout bikers? Really?) are you finally allowed to don power armor and call yourself Brother...

Then Johnny test tube comes along bigger, badder, and better equipped.

I dislike the look rather than the idea; the Intercessor looks like a converted Stormcast.
The fluff is... alright.
Personally I put forward the idea that Cawl is jealous enough to not tell people about his NuMarine pet project, just in case the Fabricator-General or some such takes credit for it and Roboute is the only one powerful enough to terrify him into revealing it

They'll eventually replace all the current marine kits with nuMarines, probably a few kits every few months. The revised Terminator models ought to be interesting when they appear - what will they be, Dreadnought sized?

The big question will be if the starter set contains ONLY nuMarines or a mix of regular and nuMarines. My suspicion is the former, not the latter, or it'd make replacing the kits more difficult.

 d-usa wrote:
The Imperium of Man, where people accept that we can implant organs into space marines that let them eat people to gain their memories but can't accept that technology exists that can turn women into giant genetically modified super warriors.

Exalted for brevity.

Not to mention power armor. The strength of a forklift driver doesn't matter when the machine can do all the work.

Sigh. . .

The thing got me on board with fluff was the reply from GW on Facebook which said that Cawl has been messing around with the 5% of geneseed that each chapter sends to Terra for purity testing. It means that Cawl can have made nu blood angels and nu dark angels in secret who may not be welcomed.with open arms by their chapters.
I am also expecting some kind of counterbalancing flaw like the thunder warriors or the stormcast have.
After the bright shining primarch they follow is permanently interred in his suit, feels constant pain and hates everything the imperium has become.
It will be interesting to see where things go.
As for the 10,000 years of progress, they have made marines who a little bit bigger and have a slightly better boltgun. I would hardly call that spectacular progress.

GodDamUser wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
technicly he didn't steal it. the geneseed tithes where always intended to be used in this manner. I mean Gulliman's the guy whom created that rule.

No but he did Lie..


Hey guys, we should totally give some geneseeds to mars so they can lock them away and safeguard them just in case the worse happens.

While the whole time actually has his old mate playing around with them....

except playing around with and tinkering with the geneseed for new space marine foundings is hardly a new thing. it's been happening for millineia. no one objected to the last space Marine foundings. and that is EXACTLY what this is. I think we can start refering to the 27th founding. in M 41.999

 Silverthorne wrote:

GoatboyBeta wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
I'm pretty excited about the possibility of female marines now, since there no longer will be any real rationale not to introduce them. Not that there really was before, of course, but now there won't even be the thinnest fluff based justification.

There is zero reason to make female space marines except deplorable inclusiveness for the sake of inclusiveness. Nevermind that we know they're going to be male, there was no female bodies in the pods we saw.

I'm probably gonna regret opening this particular can of worms but......
While I agree the NuMarines are most likely going to be all male, just like there predecessors. If GW did decide to use this opportunity to bypass the decades of fluff inertia about male only Marines, where's the harm in it? All it would need is the odd bare head here and there for the models and a few female pronouns in the fluff.

Sure, they can also add in a bunch of male sororitas while they are at it. Because everything is better when you mix up the genders and remove any unique flavor imparted by being single sex!

Sororitas aren't male though, that goes against their canon. Making female oldmarines would be against canon and I wouldn't like that, but there's no canon issues with female numarines.

As for the pragmatic reasons against them, they just seem silly. There's differences between normal men and woman, but no reason this would apply to super-soldiers. By the time you're doing such the extensive work that's being done to the Numarines, briding that gap means nothing. Plus, by allowing women you're doubling the potential recruit force you have.

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
Plus, by allowing women you're doubling the potential recruit force you have.

There has never been a man-power shortage in the Imperium, so trying to multiply their recruitment by taking away women who would probably be better used for having families/kids doesn't seem sound to me. It makes more sense with the Imperial Guard, their kids grow up to serve the Regiment they were born in, colonize worlds reclaimed etc.

But these Marines, the Females you throw in lose their production capability, better for males to be expendable IMO.

But if these are test tube babies, then maybe it doesn't matter.

 Ginsu33 wrote:

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
Plus, by allowing women you're doubling the potential recruit force you have.

There has never been a man-power shortage in the Imperium, so trying to multiply their recruitment by taking away women who would probably be better used for having families/kids doesn't seem sound to me. It makes more sense with the Imperial Guard, their kids grow up to serve the Regiment they were born in, colonize worlds reclaimed etc.

But these Marines, the Females you throw in lose their production capability, better for males to be expendable IMO.

But if these are test tube babies, then maybe it doesn't matter.

this is doubly true when presumably certain genetic traits are required to become a marine take both genders in and you'll likely breed those traits out of the population.

Men have more muscle mass than women. Also, their muscle is stronger than women's. Women are hormonally different. Women incur injuries easier than men, given the same load standards. There's dozens of other reasons. In the context of 40k, different chapters are all alike. A man and a woman aren't alike. A male Imperial Fist and a female Imperial Fist arent cohesive. This isn't misogyny. It is the fate of the Imperium.

Thats irrelevant. These are mutated creations of science. Not humans. What humans are means nothing to what the marines/numarines are. They are literally different down the genetic level.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Does this mean all the old vehicles are invalidated? I imagine so.

This appears to be GWs ways of attempting to invalidate the entire marine line. Whatever fluff they use will be...meh.

 Frazzled wrote:

Men have more muscle mass than women. Also, their muscle is stronger than women's. Women are hormonally different. Women incur injuries easier than men, given the same load standards. There's dozens of other reasons. In the context of 40k, different chapters are all alike. A man and a woman aren't alike. A male Imperial Fist and a female Imperial Fist arent cohesive. This isn't misogyny. It is the fate of the Imperium.

Thats irrelevant. These are mutated creations of science. Not humans. What humans are means nothing to what the marines/numarines are. They are literally different down the genetic level.

This. The 'no female Space Marines' was utterly tenuous as it was. When you're moving to purely test-tube warriors there is literally nothing stopping them fluff-wise unless you want to magic up another arbitrary restriction.

 Frazzled wrote:

This appears to be GWs ways of attempting to invalidate the entire marine line. Whatever fluff they use will be...meh.

Don't much care for the invalidation of the Marine models. Truescale Marines are overdue anyway.

The fluff however is tragic. The Space Marines posthuman warrior-monk style thing is pretty cool and nicely grimdark. These numaries are way too noblebright. Honestly, they feel more noblebright than Tau at this point which is just wrong.

Grumble grumble 'in the noblebrightness of the far future' grumble grumble

Well...they could (or you could in your personal fluff) dial the way back machine to RT days and turn the (NU) Marines into either almost mindless killing machines (how I always still thought of marines as) or entire legions of ANGRY marines. :-)

Make them, not human, not knights of the future, but bloodless killing machines or all incarnations of World Eaters.

BUT....GW won't do that. It is targeted to the preteen boy market after all.

 Frazzled wrote:

BUT....GW won't do that. It is targeted to the preteen boy market after all.

Haha, this

I do wonder how much of their buying public are early teens. I'd say there's probably more in number, but grumpy older gits like myself (26! shock horror) probably have more individual purchasing power...

I really do like your idea that they're sort of...not human. That's definitely got legs to it

Lets say that they're portrayed by the Imperium to be these glorious knights in shining armour come to save the Imperium where even the Space Marines can't, but in every interaction they have with people they're just slightly...off. Like they have no frame of reference for even the slightest bit of humanity. They give even the hardened people of the Imperium the heebie jeebies because they seem less like a post-human warrior and more like something else walking around in the body of a person. Look into their eyes and there is nothing human staring back. How long until we have another situation like the Men of Iron where they decide they're better off without these limp bags of mostly water they're being forced to fight for?

Yeah, that I could live with

Not going to be the case though, because nuance and tension tends to fly straight by the target demographic

Exactly. The original fluff had them as mind swiped ex prisoners. They had one bit of fluff monitoring the communication of a marine to his unit it was akin to:

*(human) village sighted.
*moving on village.
*targets (villagers) acquired.
*targets eliminated (village wiped out).
*Moving to next objective.