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 Reecius wrote:
@Crimson Devil

You will probably never see a tournament run on Power Levels. I could be wrong for sure, maybe in a learning league or something, but Power Levels are for like, casual games, Apocalypse, etc. For matched play it will be points.

Now, that said, we are planning an Apoc game with really big armies and will use Power Level for that where it speeds things up and keeps it roughly equal which would be super fun.

@MLaw

I understand what you're saying, and agree. I would never do that in a tournament, haha, for the purpose of having an educational and fun stream, I was just trying to move things along. As stated, Pablo will debate on and on because he enjoys it and knowing him, I simply wanted to move things along. And as I said, the ruling I offered up was in his favor, lol, so I was boning myself just to get things moving along so we could get on with the game.

I appreciate the feedback though, genuinely. Don't mean to come across as mean of what have you, that wasn't the goal.

@Skarsol

Yes, but you still have a 5++ so thos 10 wounds are actually 15 =P

Hey no worries.. I have seen myself on video and felt like I sounded like a raging donkey-cave when watching it but it wasn't where we were in context.. so like I said I was merely looking in and see it outside of the reality of the situation.. The fact that you guys are doing these videos.. even though they are basically commercials for your brand, they are also helpful in a broader community-driven way.. and you're answering questions etc etc.. So I'm inclined to believe that this really just came across as worse than it is. Just having been in the situation where friends with a TO or was an Outrider (when that was a thing) would throw their weight around on shady rules interpretations or those really nitpicky interpretations that nets someone 1 extra kill but makes them look like a total d-bag.. it's something I look for. Again, I truly don't think that's you.. you guys have been awesome with the QA and everything.. just giving you a complete picture of my experiences so you don't think I'm just trying to start stuff.. I have enjoyed the videos and the insight so the last thing I want to do is sound ungrateful or whatever.

Anyway.. I hope we're cool there.. I did want to ask... Initially the prospect of teleporting a blob of Boyz onto my opponents head seemed exciting. Watching it in practice and thinking about it a bit more, it really does seem like more of a late game counterpunch or maybe last minute objective grab kind of thing.. Do you think there are many instances where doing an early jump like you did might legitimately work in your favor?

Hey could you answer this:

Let's say I have a Berzerker model with a Chainsword and a Chainaxe. This model has 2 attacks. The Chainsword says I make one additional attack with this weapon, but does not specify that I have to fight with it to get the attack (this is the same wording on the Power Scourge that makes it so nuts). Does this mean that I can split my attacks to have two Chainaxe attacks and one Chainsword attack, or does this mean I have to split my attacks to have one Chainaxe attack and two Chainsword attacks? This distinction is very important because it could mean having a free attack. If that is the case, there's no reason not to take both melee weapons.

The text says each time you fight, you get an additional attack with the Chainsword. So you could do all your attacks with another weapon, but the bonus attack would have to be resolved with the Chainsword.

@MLaw

Totally cool, friend =) No worries.

The early jump works if you can actually kill what you're going after but flying up the table for a laugh obviously worked out quite poorly, haha.

@Andysonic

You get 2 Axe attacks and 1 Sword attack and yes, you go double melee as the optimal choice in most cases (IMO).

@Thread

We've got another game tonight, Grey Knights vs. Daemons! https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/06/16/59218/

Join us tonight at 5pm PST on our Twitch Channel! https://www.twitch.tv/frontlinegaming_tv

So a question for Reecius, will you be resetting the ITC standings for 8th ed, was planning on going over the numbers again, but if there is leftover 7th ed ratings it will be more challenging.

@Grimgold

We're not resetting points, no. We're transferring them to new factions in some cases though.




We've got another live game of 8th ed 40k, tonight! Blood Angels vs. Drukhari! 5pm PST

Lists here: https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/06/19/monday-night-fight-drukhari-vs-blood-angels/

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Tell us reece, has gw forced you guys to use the new names for the armies? They're horrible

 Reecius wrote:
@Grimgold

We're not resetting points, no. We're transferring them to new factions in some cases though.

I understand not resetting player points because they are in a competition, and good players in 7th ed will still be good players in 8th. But not resetting army points is an odd decision, you obviously track them separately, so you could blow them out without too much issues. Keeping them muddies the water of the 8th ed meta by leaving a hangover from 7th. Like marine armies will be overvalued due to gladius, and tau and eldar by taudar comps, etc. Maybe another site will track just the 8th ed stuff.

@Davou

No, lol. I guess we just got used to it with AoS. People coming to the game new will know them as whatever they are called, so the Drukhari (or whatever) will become the norm in time. Might as well get used to it.

@Grimgold

In a vacuum, I understand what you're saying but in reality folks invested the time, energy and money into earning those faction points based on a trust we'd honor them. We can't take that away simply to have a purely 8th ed meta for one season, it would break trust. And, it is still an even competition in the sense that folks had equal access to the same stuff the entire time. The race itself changed mid-event but it did so for everyone.



Game tonight! T'au vs. Space Marines:

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2017/06/20/tuesday-night-fight-tau-vs-space-marines/

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Who won the tau vs SM game today? How it was? Couldn't watch it...

Was a Land Raider/Predator force vs Tau with drones in a kill points mission. It went as well as you would expect. SM won handily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Reecius: Did you get an answer on how that Ork artillery is supposed to work? The Hellforged Rapier Battery uses similar verbiage and I have no clue what their intention was.

skarsol wrote:
Was a Land Raider/Predator force vs Tau with drones in a kill points mission. It went as well as you would expect. SM won handily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Reecius: Did you get an answer on how that Ork artillery is supposed to work? The Hellforged Rapier Battery uses similar verbiage and I have no clue what their intention was.

Its horribly written, but the answer has to be that the grot gunners are a separate unit from their big gun. Because in the 'Artillery' ability, it talks about a 'Grot Gunner' unit, something that simply can't exist unless the gunners and gun form separate units. Plus, since there's no longer a general mixed toughness rule in the game, if the guns and gunners were part of the same unit, you'd have no idea what Toughness to use for the unit (as they lack any ability telling you what Toughness to use like with Grot oilers and such).

 yakface wrote:

skarsol wrote:
Was a Land Raider/Predator force vs Tau with drones in a kill points mission. It went as well as you would expect. SM won handily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Reecius: Did you get an answer on how that Ork artillery is supposed to work? The Hellforged Rapier Battery uses similar verbiage and I have no clue what their intention was.

Its horribly written, but the answer has to be that the grot gunners are a separate unit from their big gun. Because in the 'Artillery' ability, it talks about a 'Grot Gunner' unit, something that simply can't exist unless the gunners and gun form separate units. Plus, since there's no longer a general mixed toughness rule in the game, if the guns and gunners were part of the same unit, you'd have no idea what Toughness to use for the unit (as they lack any ability telling you what Toughness to use like with Grot oilers and such).

Okay, if we go by that, here's how I read it. You have a unit of 3 Big Gunz: a kannon, a lobba, and a zzap gun. When you deploy this unit, it then explodes into 6 units: a kannon, a lobba, a zapp gun, and 3 units of 2 Grot Gunners. (Hope you don't roll kill points)

Take Cover says you can only shoot Grot Gunners if they're the closest unit, so they effectively have the Character rule?

Artillery says a Big Gunz can be fired by any close Grot Gunners. Okay, that makes sense.

Now, the Hellforged Artillery Battery has the same Crew rule, but it incorporates the Take Cover rule also, so we're good there.

The Artillery rule gets stupid though. A Rapier can only fire its ranged weapon of "a friendly LEGION CSM Crewman model from the same unit is within 3" Well, there's no Crew in that Rapier unit anymore cause it split into separate units. I guess we have two different definitions of "unit" here. Which then leads me to ask if you only get 1 kill point for killing the big "unit" or you get 1 for each of the split out "units".

It gets even more fun with the Daemon Unleashed rule. That says if "all CSM Crewmen in the same unit are slain" the gun goes berzerk. Well, if you have 3 guns, and 3 crewman units, does a gun go berzerk when the 2 crew that were initially assigned to it die or when all 6 die?

skarsol wrote:
Okay, if we go by that, here's how I read it. You have a unit of 3 Big Gunz: a kannon, a lobba, and a zzap gun. When you deploy this unit, it then explodes into 6 units: a kannon, a lobba, a zapp gun, and 3 units of 2 Grot Gunners. (Hope you don't roll kill points)

Take Cover says you can only shoot Grot Gunners if they're the closest unit, so they effectively have the Character rule?

Artillery says a Big Gunz can be fired by any close Grot Gunners. Okay, that makes sense.

Now, the Hellforged Artillery Battery has the same Crew rule, but it incorporates the Take Cover rule also, so we're good there.

The Artillery rule gets stupid though. A Rapier can only fire its ranged weapon of "a friendly LEGION CSM Crewman model from the same unit is within 3" Well, there's no Crew in that Rapier unit anymore cause it split into separate units. I guess we have two different definitions of "unit" here. Which then leads me to ask if you only get 1 kill point for killing the big "unit" or you get 1 for each of the split out "units".

It gets even more fun with the Daemon Unleashed rule. That says if "all CSM Crewmen in the same unit are slain" the gun goes berzerk. Well, if you have 3 guns, and 3 crewman units, does a gun go berzerk when the 2 crew that were initially assigned to it die or when all 6 die?

It wouldn't be the first time that the guys writing IA rules copy-pasted something from the main studio stuff but didn't really understand what it said (and then screwed it up for their version).

There are two pretty big issues if you try to play the crew and the gun as the same unit:

1) What Toughness do you use? There is no mixed Toughness anymore unless the unit specifies in its datasheet (such as with Ork helper grots).
2) If that's the case then the rule saying you can't target the crew unless it is the closest target doesn't make any sense...because firers can't target specific models within a unit in 8e.

So IMHO with the Rapier Battery, its much easier to play it like the Big Gunz, and just treat the crew as a separate unit. Then you just have to assume that when their rules talk about the 'same unit', they're referring to the parent unit they were purchased under (before splitting into individual units.

And yes, if you're playing that each crew unit and each gun unit splits into a separate unit (which I believe to be the only correct way to do it for the Orks), then each of those units is definitely worth a KP if destroyed.

I don't think its so bad though, because for the most part you have to kill the Big Gunz before you can target the crew, and since you have to target each gun as a separate unit, it can make putting exactly enough firepower to kill them a little difficult to gauge in a single turn. In other words, I've found them to be pretty durable unless the enemy is really gunning for them. You just also need to give them other targets that they have to kill ASAP or else they're going to lose!

Ork big gunz previously were only targetable by templates I thought.. in fact.. I don't even remember them having stats tbh.. I was fairly sure they worked like WHFB Cannons and whatnot..

Are the actual artillery pieces themselves intended to be shooting targets? I don't have the rules yet (stupid warstore :( ) but it seems strange. I have fond memories of strange shenanigans created from older editions artillery crew rules. It's hard to picture how different these are or what the thoughts behind this possibly new direction might be.

 MLaw wrote:
Ork big gunz previously were only targetable by templates I thought.. in fact.. I don't even remember them having stats tbh.. I was fairly sure they worked like WHFB Cannons and whatnot..

Are the actual artillery pieces themselves intended to be shooting targets? I don't have the rules yet (stupid warstore :( ) but it seems strange. I have fond memories of strange shenanigans created from older editions artillery crew rules. It's hard to picture how different these are or what the thoughts behind this possibly new direction might be.

Not only can the guns be fired at, they protect the crew from being targeted at all as long as the gun is around. Plus, they can fight in close combat!

Actually, I just looked in the older versions.. previously the big guns had a unit type of artillery. The artillery unit type defined all of the interactions that these newer rules seem to be causing problems with. Are those unit types no longer there?

 MLaw wrote:
Actually, I just looked in the older versions.. previously the big guns had a unit type of artillery. The artillery unit type defined all of the interactions that these newer rules seem to be causing problems with. Are those unit types no longer there?

There's are no unit types, just keywords.

And the problems you're reading about are really just because one word was written wrong/confusingly for Orks. You fix that, and it's all fine.

The Imperial Armor is a bit more of a problem, but frankly I've already found a metric ton of typos/issue in the IA indexes already. They seem super rushed.

 yakface wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
Actually, I just looked in the older versions.. previously the big guns had a unit type of artillery. The artillery unit type defined all of the interactions that these newer rules seem to be causing problems with. Are those unit types no longer there?

There's are no unit types, just keywords.

And the problems you're reading about are really just because one word was written wrong/confusingly for Orks. You fix that, and it's all fine.

The Imperial Armor is a bit more of a problem, but frankly I've already found a metric ton of typos/issue in the IA indexes already. They seem super rushed.

Ugh.. that's unfortunate.. I'm on pre-order for the Xenos IA :/

I understand the idea of going to keywords but leaving out unit types seems a bit like tossing the baby out with the bath water. Things like Cavalry, Jetbikes, Infantry, Tanks, Walkers.. It just seems like having specific rules for each of these unit types is part and parcel of 40k.. and really GW games as a whole. Ah well.. I'm sure it'll work out without them once the bugs are ironed out. At least GW is getting TONS of playtesting/proof-reading for their codex rough drafts.. All of that stuff will be hunted down by the time they're ready to roll into a codex format and it'll be copy paste..

skarsol wrote:
Was a Land Raider/Predator force vs Tau with drones in a kill points mission. It went as well as you would expect. SM won handily.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Reecius: Did you get an answer on how that Ork artillery is supposed to work? The Hellforged Rapier Battery uses similar verbiage and I have no clue what their intention was.

Is Reece still in denial about Tau being weak? I've watched every single battle report I can get my hands on as of now and the Tau have a loss rate approaching 90% at this point. I want to put GW's claim of a more balanced and fair edition to the test and see if they will fix the Tau who are definitely in need of some changes. Or do I have to wait for like 5 years? Of the Tau wins I've seen a good amount of them come down to rules errors in their favor or the Tau player and opponent admitting they just got lucky.

I don't really think any other army I've seen seems too strong or weak. Except perhaps the Orks might be a little weak alongside the Tau and the Necrons might be too cost effective.

 Gamgee wrote:
Is Reece still in denial about Tau being weak? I've watched every single battle report I can get my hands on as of now and the Tau have a loss rate approaching 90% at this point.

Is it because the Tau are really that weak or because players can't rely on Riptide spam anymore and haven't adapted yet?

 Breotan wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
Is Reece still in denial about Tau being weak? I've watched every single battle report I can get my hands on as of now and the Tau have a loss rate approaching 90% at this point.

Is it because the Tau are really that weak or because players can't rely on Riptide spam anymore and haven't adapted yet?

I've watched and read most of them in depth. The early ones were obviously failing to adapt. However as time is going in and people are math hammering out the best units to take lists are improving. However even with units that are better in. 8th and hyper competitive 8th Tau builds are barely getting any wins against average joes list. The only good units in our codex are gun drone spam, commander spam, and fusion blaster spam. All of these are jokes compared to what other armies can do. Except drone spam that is legit crazy and if the rest of the index is buffed might need to be toned down. List diversity at the casual level has tanked since for even a small chance to win Tau need to take their best stuff.

The insane costs on the majority of our weapons aren't helping. 3 crisis suits are less effective than a commander. 2 broadsides cost way more than a land raider and with heavy rail rifles our second strongest gun will be unable to significantly wound the land raider let alone stand a chance to kill it. Low ballistic skill no good markerlight effects and low firepower for insane costs. Our feared ability to flee combat and shoot is junk like I predicted and rarely is a factor since we die so easy.

Tau lists need to be hyper specialized to hope to win a battle. Other armies don't.

 Gamgee wrote:

Is Reece still in denial about Tau being weak? I've watched every single battle report I can get my hands on as of now and the Tau have a loss rate approaching 90% at this point. I want to put GW's claim of a more balanced and fair edition to the test and see if they will fix the Tau who are definitely in need of some changes. Or do I have to wait for like 5 years?

FLG has a financial incentive to stay on GW's good side by not panning entire armies at launch. They're helping to drive the hype train. Plus, as playtesters, saying a whole army sucks is kind of like saying you didn't do your job well. Easier to say "oh, you guys just haven't figured out how to use them yet!"

EDITED

@Thread

Wow, sorry I missed this guys, too much to keep up with. And T'au weak? Lol, what? They were on the top table at the BAO and did very well in general at the event, players were winning the game on turns 1 and 2 with strong T'au lists. There are some weak units like the Riptide (which we've been saying since day 1) but they army in general is great. Lots of viable units, my only complaint is that the dang Suit Commander is too appealing and incentivizes spamming them. But in general, no, T'au are not weak and the data shows this to be true. They also pretty much hard counter flyer spam (although that is now much less of a concern).






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Thanks for reading as always and happy gaming!

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