Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Horst wrote:
I wonder does anyone actually play that?

No. BCB's hobby is derailing threads with ridiculous RAW arguments that have nothing to do with the game as played by real people. Everyone knows how Take Cover is supposed to work and no reasonable person is going to argue that GW intended to errata it to say "this does nothing" but decided to do so via a wording change that can be interpreted to not function if you read it carefully enough instead of "page XX: remove the Take Cover stratagem". No TO that wants to have repeat customers is going to respond with anything other than "stop being TFG, of course the stratagem works as intended". The fact that BCB is able to find a piece of the rule that technically isn't correct by the strictest RAW interpretation is of interest to BCB and nobody else.

I kind of find it interesting as well, more as a curiosity than anything else, but yea I'd gotta assume that no TO would ever rule that way, just wanted to make sure.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, I mean it literally. Take Cover does nothing because there is no such thing as an Armour Save. Slab Shields also do nothing now. Also Slab Shields are for Bullgryns, not Ogryns.

What should it have said? Are you referring to the wording "Armour Save" vs just "Save"?

 Smirrors wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, I mean it literally. Take Cover does nothing because there is no such thing as an Armour Save. Slab Shields also do nothing now. Also Slab Shields are for Bullgryns, not Ogryns.

What should it have said? Are you referring to the wording "Armour Save" vs just "Save"?

Only reason it says armour save was because it used to work on invul saves but they FAQed it to say armour, meaning reg save rather than all saves.

Take cover did get errated but will by any sane person not boost your armour 2++ however they didn't errata barrier so its the easier option.

whitelion40k wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, I mean it literally. Take Cover does nothing because there is no such thing as an Armour Save. Slab Shields also do nothing now. Also Slab Shields are for Bullgryns, not Ogryns.

What should it have said? Are you referring to the wording "Armour Save" vs just "Save"?

Only reason it says armour save was because it used to work on invul saves but they FAQed it to say armour, meaning reg save rather than all saves.

If they "meant" it to mean only regular saves, the rule would have said "excluding invulnerable saves", but it doesn't, so it doesn't mean that. The irony is of course they had the wording just fine all along, with the base cover rules and they STILL messed it up.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

whitelion40k wrote:

 Smirrors wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
No, I mean it literally. Take Cover does nothing because there is no such thing as an Armour Save. Slab Shields also do nothing now. Also Slab Shields are for Bullgryns, not Ogryns.

What should it have said? Are you referring to the wording "Armour Save" vs just "Save"?

Only reason it says armour save was because it used to work on invul saves but they FAQed it to say armour, meaning reg save rather than all saves.

If they "meant" it to mean only regular saves, the rule would have said "excluding invulnerable saves", but it doesn't, so it doesn't mean that.

Did they "mean" for it to do literally nothing though? I mean I agree with you that RAW it's not doing anything, but I don't think I will ever agree with anyone saying they "meant" for it to do nothing at all. More likely GW just isn't good at writing rules.

If anyone argues that while playing, I'll just concede the match and say he wins, because that's not a game I want to play. If it's a T/O saying it, unless its literally like the LVO or something I've paid hundreds of dollars to travel to and attend, I would simply withdraw from the tournament, and probably not come back for the next one. No reasonable person IMO would conclude that a stratagem has no possible effect.

 Horst wrote:
No reasonable person IMO would conclude that a stratagem has no possible effect.

And who gets to decide reasonable? I can just as easily claim that from my point of view, No Reasonable Person would conclude that my Ultramarines don't automatically hit with all their weapons and don't have a 2+++. The only objective thing we have are what the rules actually say, so to ignore one rule is to ignore them all IMHO.

Anyway, it was intended as a throwaway statement and not to blow out of proportion, so I'll drop the matter and hope others will too.

Anyone had success with the Vigilus Detachment and Basilisks? I am loathe to use the formations because they are just one more step to the nonsense that was 7th edition but if they are good they are good and to ignore them out of spite would be petty even for me. AP-4 Catachan Earthshakers seem super tasty and being able to use a crippled one to suppress instead of hit on 6's also seems nice.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 Horst wrote:
No reasonable person IMO would conclude that a stratagem has no possible effect.

And who gets to decide reasonable? I can just as easily claim that from my point of view, No Reasonable Person would conclude that my Ultramarines don't automatically hit with all their weapons and don't have a 2+++. The only objective thing we have are what the rules actually say, so to ignore one rule is to ignore them all IMHO.

Anyway, it was intended as a throwaway statement and not to blow out of proportion, so I'll drop the matter and hope others will too.

Anyone had success with the Vigilus Detachment and Basilisks? I am loathe to use the formations because they are just one more step to the nonsense that was 7th edition but if they are good they are good and to ignore them out of spite would be petty even for me. AP-4 Catachan Earthshakers seem super tasty and being able to use a crippled one to suppress instead of hit on 6's also seems nice.

My definition of reasonable is that all rules have some effect at some point in time, otherwise it would simply be removed.. If a rule is written in such a way that it has zero effect, then a reasonable person would probably ask, "what is it *meant* to do", and reach some sort of conclusion. But yea, I'll stop arguing abou tthis, sure.

I've had a lot of success with the vigilus detachment on my Basilisk in smaller point games. We're doing a 500 pt Escalation league at my local GW, and at 500 points, being able to double fire a Basilisk is nasty. If you're playing pure Guard, you have points to spare, so Pounding Barrage + Overlapping Fields of Fire as a Cadian Guard player is a great way to spend 4 CP per turn, and a Basilisk double firing hitting on 3+ re-rolling 1's it's just extremely powerful for only 108 points.

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If they "meant" it to mean only regular saves, the rule would have said "excluding invulnerable saves", but it doesn't, so it doesn't mean that. The irony is of course they had the wording just fine all along, with the base cover rules and they STILL messed it up.

They messed up thinking people would read it otherwise what is obviously intended.

Does this mean that you dont use these rules in game BCB?

I do appreciate your rules stance for the most part but sometimes these throwaway comments only serve to derail the discussion.

As for vigilus artillery, it think its decent. The ignore cover relic is decent too if you plan to take wyverns for example. These detachments are for the most part good as they give guard some more flexibility with units we already take.

So assassin list is now a thing. Im thinking drop the castellan to a crusader or a cerastus. Add 4 assassin's, now all your cp goes to popping the assassin strats and the knight is good with minimal cp.


New meta incoming!!!!
https://imgur.com/a/kgH6ycq



++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) [70 PL, 15CP, 913pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [12CP]

Regimental Doctrine: Regiment: Cadian

+ HQ +

Lord Castellan Creed [4 PL, 55pts]: Display Astra Militarum Orders, Warlord, WT (Cadia): Superior Tactical Training

Tank Commander [12 PL, 172pts]: Display Tank Orders, Heavy Bolter
. Command Battle Tank: Battle Cannon

Tank Commander [12 PL, 172pts]: Display Tank Orders, Heavy Bolter
. Command Battle Tank: Battle Cannon

+ Troops +

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

Infantry Squad [3 PL, 40pts]: 9x Guardsman
. Sergeant: Laspistol

+ Elites +

Platoon Commander [2 PL, 20pts]: Laspistol

Platoon Commander [2 PL, 20pts]: Laspistol

Platoon Commander [2 PL, 20pts]: Laspistol

+ Fast Attack +

Armoured Sentinels [3 PL, 35pts]
. Armoured Sentinel: Multi-laser

Armoured Sentinels [3 PL, 40pts]
. Armoured Sentinel: Plasma Cannon

Armoured Sentinels [3 PL, 40pts]
. Armoured Sentinel: Plasma Cannon

+ Heavy Support +

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

Heavy Weapons Squad [3 PL, 33pts]
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar
. Heavy Weapon Team: Mortar

++ Vanguard Detachment (Imperium - Officio Assassinorum) [20 PL, 340pts] ++

+ Elites +

Culexus Assassin [5 PL, 85pts]

Culexus Assassin [5 PL, 85pts]

Culexus Assassin [5 PL, 85pts]

Culexus Assassin [5 PL, 85pts]

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [25 PL, -2CP, 497pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Exalted Court [-1CP]: Exalted Court: 1 Extra Warlord Trait

Heirlooms of the Household [-1CP]: Heirlooms of the Household: 1 Extra Heirloom

Household Choice: House Raven, Questor Mechanicus

+ Lord of War +

Knight Crusader [25 PL, 497pts]: Character (Exalted Court), Character (Heirloom of the House), Heavy Stubber, Heirloom: Endless Fury, Stormspear Rocket Pod, Thermal Cannon, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark
. Avenger Gatling Cannon w/ Heavy Flamer: Avenger Gatling Cannon, Heavy Flamer

++ Total: [115 PL, 13CP, 1750pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Not sure which combo of assassin's is needed, maybe the 1 of each detachment is best? or maybe 2 vindicare and 2 culexus! Though having 1 of each means starts will be popping alot each turn to possible amazing effect.

You cant take 4 culexus it violates rule of 3

U02dah4 wrote:
You cant take 4 culexus it violates rule of 3

The Rule of 3 only applies when you're using the Suggested limits for Organised Play. You can take 300 culexus in Matched Play if you so wish.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:
You cant take 4 culexus it violates rule of 3

The Rule of 3 only applies when you're using the Suggested limits for Organised Play. You can take 300 culexus in Matched Play if you so wish.

Good luck finding an opponent willing to let you break the rule of 3 let alone bring 300

Yea, everyone I've played with around me tend to follow all suggested rules. After all, all the rules are suggestions in the end. If you pick and choose which ones to follow, you're just making up house rules then.

The 4 culexus are placeholders for 85 points!! im actually thinking 1 of each is actually looking pretty good.

I'm honestly still not sure if they're worth it or not. The Calidus, for example, with it's Deception rule... it only procs on a 4+, and it takes 1 CP and 85 points to bring the assassin. So on average if they use 2 stratagems you'll cost them 1 extra CP, bringing you to a net gain of nothing, since you had to spend 1 CP to remove one from the enemy.

The Eversor looks decidedly meh to me, yea he gets an extra attack per kill he makes, but he's only attacking at STR 5 and AP-1, so he's not good against anything that's expensive anyway. If he kills a few screening units, that's nice, but its nothing a few mortars couldn't do better.

The Culexus looks interesting, but it's still requiring you to be within 18" of the enemy to get the -2, so many buff powers will still be very useful. He can help shut down smites on big units I guess though, so if you're doing Knights he can be useful. Still, he costs 85 points and 1 CP for that ability, so it's not exactly cheap.

The Vindicare looks interesting as well, doing ~3 damage on average to each thing he shoots at, with the ability to double-shoot. The ignore negative modifiers thing is very interesting, as is the ignores invulnerable saves. Against something like Harlequin Skyweavers, he basically just removes one of them, which is great. Again though, he costs 85 points and 1 CP, so he's not cheap, and he'd have to kill at least 2-3 characters / models to make his points back.

 Horst wrote:
I'm honestly still not sure if they're worth it or not. The Calidus, for example, with it's Deception rule... it only procs on a 4+, and it takes 1 CP and 85 points to bring the assassin. So on average if they use 2 stratagems you'll cost them 1 extra CP, bringing you to a net gain of nothing, since you had to spend 1 CP to remove one from the enemy.

The Eversor looks decidedly meh to me, yea he gets an extra attack per kill he makes, but he's only attacking at STR 5 and AP-1, so he's not good against anything that's expensive anyway. If he kills a few screening units, that's nice, but its nothing a few mortars couldn't do better.

The Culexus looks interesting, but it's still requiring you to be within 18" of the enemy to get the -2, so many buff powers will still be very useful. He can help shut down smites on big units I guess though, so if you're doing Knights he can be useful. Still, he costs 85 points and 1 CP for that ability, so it's not exactly cheap.

The Vindicare looks interesting as well, doing ~3 damage on average to each thing he shoots at, with the ability to double-shoot. The ignore negative modifiers thing is very interesting, as is the ignores invulnerable saves. Against something like Harlequin Skyweavers, he basically just removes one of them, which is great. Again though, he costs 85 points and 1 CP, so he's not cheap, and he'd have to kill at least 2-3 characters / models to make his points back.

I disagree especially on the Eversor. Vs any Horde army then thing is a damn blender. On average vs a Mob of Boys the Turn he is coming in he is waxing 13 boys then consolidating 6 inches. And if he manges to get near a heavier armored target he has a melta bomb for some surprise damage. Then when he goes get taken down he has one of the best damn explosion abilities with a 6" range and you roll a dice for each enemy in that range rather then then just when he dies. I see people having a hard time NOT getting his value back.

Vindicare is certainly most improved. However I think their is one thing to the Calidus that alot of people overlook. And that is her gun. Its 9" range is moot since 83% of the time you will be droping her within range of it. And it deals mortal wounds. Theirs not many things out side of psykic that deals straight up mortal wounds. Add in a sword that ignore invul saves and she is quite the excelent character killing for those that still their cheap warlord in a terrain piece in a hard to get to area.

And I agree that while one of pretty much any assassin can be managed. I think taking them in bulk is going to give some people conniptions.

Remember, spending 1 CP to take the assassin only applies if you take the "pick one at the start of the game, no detachment required" option. If you spend a detachment for your assassin(s) you just pay 85 ppm for them like any other unit. And IMO it's worth it for the flexibility. The Culexus and Calidus are specialist tools that require the right opponent to be worth it, while the Vindicare and Eversor are just straightforward firepower. For 1 CP you gain the ability to pick the situational tool that applies to your current opponent, or trade out the situational tool for more conventional guns if neither applies. And as an added bonus you don't have to burn a detachment on a single model.

Also, remember that assassins are almost always going to be at least CP neutral, and probably a net CP gain. You get a net +1 CP each turn you kill a character and you should be killing characters. So really you're spending 85 points to add another CP battery to your army, on top of some nice firepower. This is is almost certainly an auto-take unless assassins become so common in the meta that they cancel each other out every game.

So on average if they use 2 stratagems you'll cost them 1 extra CP, bringing you to a net gain of nothing, since you had to spend 1 CP to remove one from the enemy.

We're IG, generating tons of CP is what we do. If your opponent wants to trade CP 1:1 you're almost always coming out ahead.

callidus is really underestimated just because it hurts peoples CP and a jot of people have precounted it. more than one is of lesss value though

I wonder if GW is going to repack the assassins at all, they're rather irksome at their current price since the boxed set is so long out of print.

You think GW don't know that? They release OP rules, people will buy the overpriced models anyway!

Yup most imperium armies will want to have 1 of each on standby. Prior to this I had no need for a vindicare as he was a bit subpar taken as singular assassin. I might have to reconsider.

Ran an Assassin/Custodes/Guard list today vs Death guard.

Took 3 Eversors/2 Vindicare/1 Callidus.

The Eversors were a bit underwhelming this game. 1 shredded Cultist screen and then got bogged down by a unit of Nurglings.
The other 2 Tied up a Plague Crawler and a DeroDero dread for a round. But all 3 of them got eaten by DPs Did keep the DPs back in his half of the BF though.

The Vindicares didn't have many good targets as everything was a monsters with 6+ toughness or Vechicle. However One did make a beut of a shot 1 shooting his Warlord he had moved out in the open to try and spread its aura around. Also one did some critical damage to a rhino in the last turn which gave me just kills to end 1 point ahead at the end of turn 6 26-25.

Callidus did good a scraped off additiona 2l CP. Also was extremely useful in killing the nurglings guarding his objective (Probably should have kept it camped there.) It ended up also finishing off a wounded plague Crawler. Got eaten by a DP after doing that though.

Rest of the game was a heroic charge by the Vertus Bikers taking a out a plague drone and Plague marine squad and snatching an objective for a round. Then got eaten by both Deamon Princes falling on them.... Which seems to be a result that most of my lost units faced.

The 3 Callidus grave tanks had a ranged duel with 3 Plague Crawlers and the Derodero while being backed up by Trajan and a Vexilus Preator. Ended up losing 2 of the Grav tanks (And Trajan to 2 more bloat drones the charge in) But they took out The Derodero, the 3 Plague Crawlers, and 1 of the 3 Bloat Drones.

The was probably the first time I was really missing not having a Telemon to help deal with the Plaguebust Crawlers.

The mortar teams didn't do much other then bang up a few Nurgling units and a wound here and there. Least use I have ever gotten out of them.

The DPs were an absolute pain to deal with. Going to have to figure out something to deal with those donkey-caves.

Tragan who I Throught would do better really didn't do much even in melee with a Bloat Drone. Part of it was fairly bad rolls. But he just underwhelmed.

You should try with the new rules, Eversor should clear more and be able to tag more with extra attacks, attack twice and consolidate 6, and a much bigger explosion radius. Vindicare also can now spam MW against DPS for 1cp each turn.

So I came into a somewhat absurd amount of fliers for guard and I wanted to try something a little different. I'd been struggling to find a theme for my Catachans and I think I've found it. I have no illusions of grandeur but for those crazy few who have tried air cav lists, do you see any red flags or unintentionally broken rules? I've never used a flier before so this is a big change of pace. Our group still allows index options by the way.

Keep in mind I still have spare valks and a vulture on top of what you see here... Yeah it's a hell of a squadron. Going for an apocalypse now theme. The warlord is the air cav commander from the movie

 Smirrors wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
If they "meant" it to mean only regular saves, the rule would have said "excluding invulnerable saves", but it doesn't, so it doesn't mean that. The irony is of course they had the wording just fine all along, with the base cover rules and they STILL messed it up.

They messed up thinking people would read it otherwise what is obviously intended.

Does this mean that you dont use these rules in game BCB?

I do appreciate your rules stance for the most part but sometimes these throwaway comments only serve to derail the discussion.

As for vigilus artillery, it think its decent. The ignore cover relic is decent too if you plan to take wyverns for example. These detachments are for the most part good as they give guard some more flexibility with units we already take.

Well he claims he plays 100% RAW so yes. Of course since you cannot play 40k with 100% RAW through that means he has actually never FINISHED a game and is instead in infinite loop in his first game of 40k since 100% RAW doesnt' allow him to finish it.

Hey guys,

so I am trying to do a new list for my next game and I wanna try some of the new Vigilus Detachments. Its the first time I post a list here to get some tips for the list and maybe for the future with regard to things I usually don't notice. I am propably facing Eldar/Harlequin, with the usual, so some alaitoc rangers and hemlock, sam hainn shining spears and some harlequins. Something like that.

So for my list:

2000 Points
-3 CP Imperial Armoury

Brigade (Catachan):
HQ:
Straken
Company Commander (Warlord) Grand Strategist, Laurels of Command
Primaris Psyker, Nightshroud, Psychic Barrier

Elite:
Astropath, Mental Fortitude
Astropath, Psychic Barrier
Ministorum Priest, Chainsword
Platoon Commander
Sergeant Harker

Troops:
6x Infantry Squads, Plasma Gun


Fast Attack:
3x Hellhounds, Infernocannon, Heavy Flamer, Track Guards

Heavy Support:
3x3 HWS Mortars

Supreme Command Detachment:

Emperors Fist Tank Company
Catachan

HQ:
1x Tank Commander, Hammer of Sunderance, 2x Plasma Cannons, Lascannon, Heavy Stubber
2x Tank Commander, Battle Cannon, 2x Plasma Cannons, Lascannon, Heavy Stubber

Spearhead Detachment:
Emperors Wrath
Catachan
HQ:
Company Commander, Kurovs Aquila
Heavy Support:
Basilisk, Heavy Bolter
Basilisk, Heavy Bolter
Hydra, Heavy Bolter

So what do you think? Or should I cut the Emperors Wrath Detachment and make it a normal spearhead one?

Thanks in advance

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So I came into a somewhat absurd amount of fliers for guard and I wanted to try something a little different. I'd been struggling to find a theme for my Catachans and I think I've found it. I have no illusions of grandeur but for those crazy few who have tried air cav lists, do you see any red flags or unintentionally broken rules? I've never used a flier before so this is a big change of pace. Our group still allows index options by the way.

Keep in mind I still have spare valks and a vulture on top of what you see here... Yeah it's a hell of a squadron. Going for an apocalypse now theme. The warlord is the air cav commander from the movie

Spoiler:

1st Batallion:

-Company Commander: Boltgun/power swords Relic Mamorth Tuskblade/wlt Master of command

-Sly Marbo

-X3 Infantry squad: Boltgun, GL

-x3 Vets: plasma pistol, X3 plasma gun

-Command squad: Regimental Standard, X3 melta

-Special Weapon Squad: X3 demo charge

-x2 Valkyrie: Multi Laser, x2 rocket pod

-x2 Vulture: x2 punisher


2nd Batallion

-x2 Company Commander: Powerfist/plasma pistol

-x3 Infantry Squad: Boltgun, GL, ML

-x3 officer of the fleet

-Harker

-Avenger with x2 ML

-X2 Valkyrie: Multi Laser, Rocket pods

I've played a good bit of Catachan Air Assault and it's a blast. I'd say the biggest thing to plan for is to use your fliers to block enemy ground unit movement. Use those big flyer bases to your advantage! Oh, and don't forget to charge Valks in first to eat overwatch if you're going to get into melee.

I've also used special weapon squads with demo charges, don't forget to use the grenade strat.

I've also used the Avenger because it's such a cool model but do not expect it to do much. It is straight up bad. It will never earn back even a small % of it's points back. The vulture is amazing though. And I actually like Valks after they drop off their cargo and hover. I give mine lascannons.

Thanks for the tips col. Cross. I'm surprised with the lascannons on the valks, I'd figure moving so much they'd be unreliable and you'd want high volume of fire weapons.

And yeah the avenger is rough but like you said it looks cool and I'm determined to use it. What loadout would you recommend? I'm looking at missile launchers because they're cheap and flexible compared to it's other options. Tac bombs seem lackluster for a one shot weapon and the other ones either fill anti horde that I have in spades or cost twice as much for almost exactly the same AT ability.

Also how does grav chute insertion work? From the wording I think it means I must disembark outside of 9", but then can move afterwards like a normal disembark. Or is it more like a deepstrike where you drop in and then cannot move from that point. Essentially that's going to determine how I use things like the demo team or even maybe add in some bullgryns.

Drop 9'' or more, then move, deep strike prevents that because it happens at the end of the moving phase or something, whereas grav chute has no such limitation