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I usually run 2 to 3 hellhounds in my list but have noticed they really don't earn back their points either in stuff killed or tactically like tying up other units etc. In fact most people know about their explosive capabilities and since 99% of the time I tend to go second I very often lose at least 1 which often enough translates into mortal wounds being thrown about in my lines. The ones that do survive roll up into the enemy lines as quickly as possible, get off one shot and then are unceremoniously killed off - maybe also spewing out MWs and sometimes not. So for 1.25 hellhounds I can take sentinels and spend the remaining points on more efficient units. Based on that what's a better sentinel in today's meta? I don't see a reason not to take an armored sentinel - yeah it's a little slower and doesn't have access to GO RECON but for a better save and one better toughness I think I like it better? I've just always taken scout sentinels, I think, because that's what I saw everyone else taking. Figured I'd give them autocannons, try to put them in cover if possible and pew-pew from a distance.

I think an autocannon, missile launcher, or lascannon works best for sentinels. Plasma cannon is limited to armored sentinels only and it basically requires you stand still if you are going to overload it unless you are Tallarn, at which point you still have a 1/6 chance each shot of blowing yourself up. Multilaser is still overpriced garbage.

I personally prefer lascannons, and keeping my sentinels back in cover and plinking away at vehicles. They usually do damage about once or twice a game, which is enough to make their points back against what lascannons are good at shooting at. Shooting at infantry is usually a waste of time, even for autocannon and ML (frag) sentinels. Keeping them in cover usually deincentivizes enemies from shooting at them. They are tough enough in cover that it usually takes a bit of firepower to remove them, and opponents usually have better targets to spend their firepower on.

w1zard wrote:
I think an autocannon, missile launcher, or lascannon works best for sentinels. Plasma cannon is limited to armored sentinels only and it basically requires you stand still if you are going to overload it unless you are Tallarn, at which point you still have a 1/6 chance each shot of blowing yourself up. Multilaser is still overpriced garbage.

I personally prefer lascannons, and keeping my sentinels back in cover and plinking away at vehicles. They usually do damage about once or twice a game, which is enough to make their points back against what lascannons are good at shooting at. Shooting at infantry is usually a waste of time, even for autocannon and ML (frag) sentinels. Keeping them in cover usually deincentivizes enemies from shooting at them. They are tough enough in cover that it usually takes a bit of firepower to remove them, and opponents usually have better targets to spend their firepower on.

Cadian Plasma Cannon sentinels are pretty viable, they've got a 1/36 chance of exploding if you don't move them, so they offer some decent firepower for a 40pt force org slot filler.

Why don't we see more Drop force detachment? It seems strong to me but we don't see it winning tournament.

 RenegadeKorps wrote:
Why don't we see more Drop force detachment? It seems strong to me but we don't see it winning tournament.

It's expensive to buy, difficult to transport, and a pain in the butt to paint, all things that don't lend themselves to tourney play.

It's the same reason guardsmen hordes may be perfectly capable of winning tournaments but you never see more than 60-80.

2 Flyers and 21 infantry seems lite on both painting time and cost honestly.

But what about the merits of the dropforce itself? I'm thinking of fielding one and it sort of feels like a nice little package of reliable firepower. Use the warlord trait, 3 squads, 2 commanders and a command squad. All hitting on 2s probably using the reroll wound orders. All that feels like it could put a decent dent in anything. From turn one too. (hovering to the frontlines to let you disembark without the 1/6 chance of dying.) You should even get the tempestus bonus on all your weapons if the positioning is right.

cody.d. wrote:
2 Flyers and 21 infantry seems lite on both painting time and cost honestly.

But what about the merits of the dropforce itself? I'm thinking of fielding one and it sort of feels like a nice little package of reliable firepower. Use the warlord trait, 3 squads, 2 commanders and a command squad. All hitting on 2s probably using the reroll wound orders. All that feels like it could put a decent dent in anything. From turn one too. (hovering to the frontlines to let you disembark without the 1/6 chance of dying.) You should even get the tempestus bonus on all your weapons if the positioning is right.

I've played against it, it has a really nasty punch, but you're going to lose the whole drop force in the subsequent turn minus the fliers. In ITC, it's a huge liability because MSU Scion squads are points pinatas because you're basically giving up an easy killed one, killed more, and at least one butcher's bill and progress towards reaper.

cody.d. wrote:
2 Flyers and 21 infantry seems lite on both painting time and cost honestly.

But what about the merits of the dropforce itself? I'm thinking of fielding one and it sort of feels like a nice little package of reliable firepower. Use the warlord trait, 3 squads, 2 commanders and a command squad. All hitting on 2s probably using the reroll wound orders. All that feels like it could put a decent dent in anything. From turn one too. (hovering to the frontlines to let you disembark without the 1/6 chance of dying.) You should even get the tempestus bonus on all your weapons if the positioning is right.

Consider what you're getting, and what you're paying for it. You get 10 plasma guns, all under optimal conditions hitting on 2+, re-rolling misses, with exploding 5's and 6's for more plasma shots. So 20 shots base, maybe like 7 extra shots from exploding 5's, so figure you'll get like 26 plasma hits as like an absolute best case. Against a Knight, you'll do 19.5 wounds if you somehow order all of them to re-roll wounds (which I don't think you can do). It has a 3++ save, so 6.43 wounds get through, for ~13 damage average against a Knight. You paid 600+ points for this unit, and it will effectively cut a Knight in half, assuming you get damn near optimal rolls and he rolls average. Next turn they all die.

Another way to get the same firepower... you take 2 Cadian Tank Commander Executioners, with lascannons / plasma cannons. You'll get an average of 13 shots each + a lascannon, and they can all hit on a 2+ if you trigger overlapping fields of fire (or if one of those commanders is Pask) and wound on a 4+ re-rollable if you have an officer with old grudges. That will cost ~400 points, and give you more firepower and more survivability, for damn near the same plasma fire output and accuracy.

Against a player with enough cannon fodder too, the odds of you getting your drop force within 12" of a high value target turn 1 is pretty unlikely. He just puts up a large infantry screen ~9" in front of his big scary things, and you're not getting within 12" of it to rapid fire. It also depends on your opponent having a high value target worth throwing that 600 points against, because it will always die turn 2. Tank Commanders could live longer because you can hold them back and still fire, or maybe buff them with astropaths.

I mean it's probably a fun choice, but it's not better than other Guard options, because it's expensive and the entire force is fragile and depends on your opponent leaving a juicy target out for you to even approach making your points back.

Consider what you're getting, and what you're paying for it. You get 10 plasma guns, all under optimal conditions hitting on 2+, re-rolling misses, with exploding 5's and 6's for more plasma shots. So 20 shots base, maybe like 7 extra shots from exploding 5's, so figure you'll get like 26 plasma hits as like an absolute best case. Against a Knight, you'll do 19.5 wounds if you somehow order all of them to re-roll wounds (which I don't think you can do). It has a 3++ save, so 6.43 wounds get through, for ~13 damage average against a Knight. You paid 600+ points for this unit, and it will effectively cut a Knight in half, assuming you get damn near optimal rolls and he rolls average. Next turn they all die.

Remember that the scions have a doctrine specific order to re-roll all wound rolls against vehicles. I'd probably use that over the re-roll ones. The improvements to the wound rolls is a bit more helpful. Plus you do have the valks lascannons and anti tank missiles to squeeze out some extra damage.

While the comparison to the executioners are valid I feel the flyers with their -1 would be of similar survivability to the tanks, while also giving you a lot of versatility and mobility. Those tanks will help you hold one objective, if you're lucky enough not to have things like da jump lads coming to be the soccer hooligans they were born to be. (idea for later, Hi-Vis vests for orks, re-enact French Riots.)

And if the enemy has got enough chaff to put a ring of troops around his big ticket items then at least you've done a lot to dictate his deployment. Likely as not that will leave some openings to exploit elsewhere. And it's little different than waiting till second turn to drop them in the traditional way right?

Someone suggested that models disembarking with grav chute insertion can still move after doing so. Similar to regular disembarking, but they have to disembark more than 9” away. Is there anything saying they can’t move farther, I.e, their regular move, after doing so?

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Someone suggested that models disembarking with grav chute insertion can still move after doing so. Similar to regular disembarking, but they have to disembark more than 9” away. Is there anything saying they can’t move farther, I.e, their regular move, after doing so?

No, they get their regular move after grav insertion, so it's a little easier to move them into position, and a little harder to screen against them.

They indeed seem to follow normal disembarking procedures besides the two tweaks of being able to do it at any point during the flyer's movement and the models needing to be set up 9" away from the enemy. It's a nice bonus that you can do this while moving less than 20" in hover mode to dodge the dangerous terrain check.

cody.d. wrote:

Consider what you're getting, and what you're paying for it. You get 10 plasma guns, all under optimal conditions hitting on 2+, re-rolling misses, with exploding 5's and 6's for more plasma shots. So 20 shots base, maybe like 7 extra shots from exploding 5's, so figure you'll get like 26 plasma hits as like an absolute best case. Against a Knight, you'll do 19.5 wounds if you somehow order all of them to re-roll wounds (which I don't think you can do). It has a 3++ save, so 6.43 wounds get through, for ~13 damage average against a Knight. You paid 600+ points for this unit, and it will effectively cut a Knight in half, assuming you get damn near optimal rolls and he rolls average. Next turn they all die.

Remember that the scions have a doctrine specific order to re-roll all wound rolls against vehicles. I'd probably use that over the re-roll ones. The improvements to the wound rolls is a bit more helpful. Plus you do have the valks lascannons and anti tank missiles to squeeze out some extra damage.

While the comparison to the executioners are valid I feel the flyers with their -1 would be of similar survivability to the tanks, while also giving you a lot of versatility and mobility. Those tanks will help you hold one objective, if you're lucky enough not to have things like da jump lads coming to be the soccer hooligans they were born to be. (idea for later, Hi-Vis vests for orks, re-enact French Riots.)

And if the enemy has got enough chaff to put a ring of troops around his big ticket items then at least you've done a lot to dictate his deployment. Likely as not that will leave some openings to exploit elsewhere. And it's little different than waiting till second turn to drop them in the traditional way right?

I've yet to play with my fliers yet, but I don't see valks doing a ton of damage. They either have a couple of super expensive krak missiles or they have rocket pods. Neither one is particularly awe inspiring. Don't get me wrong the rocket pods are pretty good for what they are but a lot of what you pay for on a valk is durability and mobility as a transport and I think it shows.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

I've yet to play with my fliers yet, but I don't see valks doing a ton of damage. They either have a couple of super expensive krak missiles or they have rocket pods. Neither one is particularly awe inspiring. Don't get me wrong the rocket pods are pretty good for what they are but a lot of what you pay for on a valk is durability and mobility as a transport and I think it shows.

True, and that's a big reason why I don't think this formation will see much tournament use. The Valks, once they've dropped off their cargo, are nowhere near worth their points. And the unit they drop off is powerful, but not good enough to be considered for tournament use when other, better options exist to do similar damage for lower points costs. Like, for your 2 valks + troops, you could literally buy a Knight Castellan. I know which choice is more common.

Horst wrote:

 Wolf_in_Human_Shape wrote:
Someone suggested that models disembarking with grav chute insertion can still move after doing so. Similar to regular disembarking, but they have to disembark more than 9” away. Is there anything saying they can’t move farther, I.e, their regular move, after doing so?

No, they get their regular move after grav insertion, so it's a little easier to move them into position, and a little harder to screen against them.

cody.d. wrote:They indeed seem to follow normal disembarking procedures besides the two tweaks of being able to do it at any point during the flyer's movement and the models needing to be set up 9" away from the enemy. It's a nice bonus that you can do this while moving less than 20" in hover mode to dodge the dangerous terrain check.

Oh, how very fun. Can ratta-tat-tat with a Valkyrie for a bit while the rest of the army moves into place, and then jump ahead to unleash the Ogryns. Renegade Ogryns in this case, but still valid.

Yes, airborne Ogryns can be a thing

 Horst wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

I've yet to play with my fliers yet, but I don't see valks doing a ton of damage. They either have a couple of super expensive krak missiles or they have rocket pods. Neither one is particularly awe inspiring. Don't get me wrong the rocket pods are pretty good for what they are but a lot of what you pay for on a valk is durability and mobility as a transport and I think it shows.

True, and that's a big reason why I don't think this formation will see much tournament use. The Valks, once they've dropped off their cargo, are nowhere near worth their points. And the unit they drop off is powerful, but not good enough to be considered for tournament use when other, better options exist to do similar damage for lower points costs. Like, for your 2 valks + troops, you could literally buy a Knight Castellan. I know which choice is more common.

You don't use them to kill things after the drop. You enter hover mode and charge every non-fly vehicle in his backline with them. Its actually really powerful in a guard v guard match since the valk's base is huge and two of them can easily turn off multiple vehicles (before you say the player being tied up should deploy more spread put, it's not always an option with terrain, deployment zone, and fire lanes forcing you to cluster at least some of your vehicles.)

 necron99 wrote:
I usually run 2 to 3 hellhounds in my list but have noticed they really don't earn back their points either in stuff killed or tactically like tying up other units etc. In fact most people know about their explosive capabilities and since 99% of the time I tend to go second I very often lose at least 1 which often enough translates into mortal wounds being thrown about in my lines. The ones that do survive roll up into the enemy lines as quickly as possible, get off one shot and then are unceremoniously killed off - maybe also spewing out MWs and sometimes not. So for 1.25 hellhounds I can take sentinels and spend the remaining points on more efficient units. Based on that what's a better sentinel in today's meta? I don't see a reason not to take an armored sentinel - yeah it's a little slower and doesn't have access to GO RECON but for a better save and one better toughness I think I like it better? I've just always taken scout sentinels, I think, because that's what I saw everyone else taking. Figured I'd give them autocannons, try to put them in cover if possible and pew-pew from a distance.

I've been considering FW Tauros Venators for my fast attack slots. I think they're out of print, so I was gonna kitbash some from the quad in the GSC Jackals and use the dirt bikes for rough riders.

That is why I give my Valks all of the weapon upgrades, including a lascannon. Once they drop off their cargo, they're often completely ignored. They just stay in hover mode popping off 3+ shooting and whatever I need from the center of the board. Then they charge something nearby. You can also use their large bases to close off the most direct path to an OBJ or one of your units you don't want assaulted. They have their uses, I'm not saying they're great, but they can be fun and a nuisance for your opponent.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
That is why I give my Valks all of the weapon upgrades, including a lascannon. Once they drop off their cargo, they're often completely ignored. They just stay in hover mode popping off 3+ shooting and whatever I need from the center of the board. Then they charge something nearby. You can also use their large bases to close off the most direct path to an OBJ or one of your units you don't want assaulted. They have their uses, I'm not saying they're great, but they can be fun and a nuisance for your opponent.

I thought valks didn't get strafing run. How are you getting BS 3+?

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
That is why I give my Valks all of the weapon upgrades, including a lascannon. Once they drop off their cargo, they're often completely ignored. They just stay in hover mode popping off 3+ shooting and whatever I need from the center of the board. Then they charge something nearby. You can also use their large bases to close off the most direct path to an OBJ or one of your units you don't want assaulted. They have their uses, I'm not saying they're great, but they can be fun and a nuisance for your opponent.

I thought valks didn't get strafing run. How are you getting BS 3+?

Valks get Roving Gunship instead.

Also, [Screaming Internally], they have BS4+ and get to add 1 to rolls to hit.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
That is why I give my Valks all of the weapon upgrades, including a lascannon. Once they drop off their cargo, they're often completely ignored. They just stay in hover mode popping off 3+ shooting and whatever I need from the center of the board. Then they charge something nearby. You can also use their large bases to close off the most direct path to an OBJ or one of your units you don't want assaulted. They have their uses, I'm not saying they're great, but they can be fun and a nuisance for your opponent.

I thought valks didn't get strafing run. How are you getting BS 3+?

Valks get Roving Gunship instead.

Also, [Screaming Internally], they have BS4+ and get to add 1 to rolls to hit.

Add an Officer of the Fleet and you can give reroll ones to hit against a ground target.

 Bleakshroud wrote:

 necron99 wrote:
I usually run 2 to 3 hellhounds in my list but have noticed they really don't earn back their points either in stuff killed or tactically like tying up other units etc. In fact most people know about their explosive capabilities and since 99% of the time I tend to go second I very often lose at least 1 which often enough translates into mortal wounds being thrown about in my lines. The ones that do survive roll up into the enemy lines as quickly as possible, get off one shot and then are unceremoniously killed off - maybe also spewing out MWs and sometimes not. So for 1.25 hellhounds I can take sentinels and spend the remaining points on more efficient units. Based on that what's a better sentinel in today's meta? I don't see a reason not to take an armored sentinel - yeah it's a little slower and doesn't have access to GO RECON but for a better save and one better toughness I think I like it better? I've just always taken scout sentinels, I think, because that's what I saw everyone else taking. Figured I'd give them autocannons, try to put them in cover if possible and pew-pew from a distance.

I've been considering FW Tauros Venators for my fast attack slots. I think they're out of print, so I was gonna kitbash some from the quad in the GSC Jackals and use the dirt bikes for rough riders.

Hiya I have been planning on doing the same but after talking to warhammer shop rep in my area the quads are on to small of a base. He suggested a Ridgerunner for regular Tauros and Kitbashing and deorking some Ork 4 wheelers for the Venator. Basically a Imperial Knight base size for the Venator vehicle.

 Drakka77 wrote:

 Bleakshroud wrote:

 necron99 wrote:
I usually run 2 to 3 hellhounds in my list but have noticed they really don't earn back their points either in stuff killed or tactically like tying up other units etc. In fact most people know about their explosive capabilities and since 99% of the time I tend to go second I very often lose at least 1 which often enough translates into mortal wounds being thrown about in my lines. The ones that do survive roll up into the enemy lines as quickly as possible, get off one shot and then are unceremoniously killed off - maybe also spewing out MWs and sometimes not. So for 1.25 hellhounds I can take sentinels and spend the remaining points on more efficient units. Based on that what's a better sentinel in today's meta? I don't see a reason not to take an armored sentinel - yeah it's a little slower and doesn't have access to GO RECON but for a better save and one better toughness I think I like it better? I've just always taken scout sentinels, I think, because that's what I saw everyone else taking. Figured I'd give them autocannons, try to put them in cover if possible and pew-pew from a distance.

I've been considering FW Tauros Venators for my fast attack slots. I think they're out of print, so I was gonna kitbash some from the quad in the GSC Jackals and use the dirt bikes for rough riders.

Hiya I have been planning on doing the same but after talking to warhammer shop rep in my area the quads are on to small of a base. He suggested a Ridgerunner for regular Tauros and Kitbashing and deorking some Ork 4 wheelers for the Venator. Basically a Imperial Knight base size for the Venator vehicle.

Oh man, I hadn't realized it was as big as the new ork buggies. I played against someone with one a while back and I didnt think it was that big. Thanks for the heads up, back to the drawing board

I think guard just has lackluster fast attack options. Sure, the hellhound and the sentinel aren't BAD, but they aren't particularly great either. Plus it's only two options, and how many heavy support picks do we have?

I dislike the fact that every IG army needs to have either hellhounds or sentinels in it, and I would prefer if we had motorcycle based rough riders (with actual GW models), and another infantry based fast attack option. Maybe also another light combat vehicle.

Well lore wise we do model wise yea I agree. For motorcycle though its an easy kit bash with all GW parts. The fact that Tauros was a thing should have remained.

Rough Riders are still legal, and are perfectly fine. They're cheap, they outflank, and they have at least some punch. WS 4+ on a combat unit is ugly, but they can always take two plasma guns to provide a little surprise to backfield campers.

And hellhounds are better than "fine" in my experience. Yes, smart players will target them early to prevent mortal wounds in their lines, but that's also ranged anti-tank not aimed at your LRBTs or artillery.

I agree that guard are thin at Fast attack. We're the only army without a biker or jump pack unit. That said, we're also the army with probably the cheapest tax filler unit in sentinels.

Hi, I have the opportunity to buy an Astra Militarum army and i would like to have your advises to know if I can build a decent list with it (1000-1500 points range).

Here are the models:

- 6 x10 infantry with some guard w/ plamsa, flamers, grenade launchers
- 2x 10 Vétérans
- 2 Heavy weapon squad w/ missile launcher
- 1 Heavy weapon squad w/ las canon
- 5 ratlings
- 3 commissars
- 1 Astropath/primaris psyker
- Sly Marbo
- 5 rough riders w/ meltas
- 2 x Company commander
- 1 Chimera
- 1 Hellounbd
- 1 Valkyria
- 1 Leman Russ
- 3 Scout sentinels w/ heavy flamers

Thanks a lot guys !

HeavenLord wrote:
Hi, I have the opportunity to buy an Astra Militarum army and i would like to have your advises to know if I can build a decent list with it (1000-1500 points range).

Here are the models:

- 6 x10 infantry with some guard w/ plamsa, flamers, grenade launchers
- 2x 10 Vétérans
- 2 Heavy weapon squad w/ missile launcher
- 1 Heavy weapon squad w/ las canon
- 5 ratlings
- 3 commissars
- 1 Astropath/primaris psyker
- Sly Marbo
- 5 rough riders w/ meltas
- 2 x Company commander
- 1 Chimera
- 1 Hellounbd
- 1 Valkyria
- 1 Leman Russ
- 3 Scout sentinels w/ heavy flamers

Thanks a lot guys !

This will be the core of an army. Most IG armies are built around a brigade detachment, so have 60 infantry is a great start. Oddly for an IG lot, there's only one heavy support tank, so you'll probably want to pick up some more heavy support such as a baslisk.

I'd guess this adds up to about 1000 points, and the only real duff units are the Valkyrie and chimera. Even they're not bad.

 Polonius wrote:
Rough Riders are still legal, and are perfectly fine. They're cheap, they outflank, and they have at least some punch. WS 4+ on a combat unit is ugly, but they can always take two plasma guns to provide a little surprise to backfield campers.

And hellhounds are better than "fine" in my experience. Yes, smart players will target them early to prevent mortal wounds in their lines, but that's also ranged anti-tank not aimed at your LRBTs or artillery.

I agree that guard are thin at Fast attack. We're the only army without a biker or jump pack unit. That said, we're also the army with probably the cheapest tax filler unit in sentinels.

Rough riders are most likely getting phased out next expansion because of GW's no models no rules policy. They don't even have models anyway so you need to convert. I would advise players to stay far away from them, because they aren't worth the effort if they are going to be completely invalidated in 2 years.