Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Trickstick wrote:

Maxzero wrote:
Are the Warlord traits really worth literally giving up 50% damage increase for an artillery piece?

I think that some of the Russ ace abilities are probably worth it. Putting the -1 damage on your Sunderance TC is pretty nice. Or a shadowsword with the perma-cover, as cover is hard to get on such a large model.

Yeah but thats my point. 2 X Tank Ace seems like a no brainer.

I just like 'Fully Loaded' because the only thing better then one Sunderance is three.

I tend to agree, if for another reason. By removing the trait from your warlord, it makes it less of a target. So maybe it will live longer if you don't also lose a trait when they die.

Maxzero wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

Maxzero wrote:
Are the Warlord traits really worth literally giving up 50% damage increase for an artillery piece?

I think that some of the Russ ace abilities are probably worth it. Putting the -1 damage on your Sunderance TC is pretty nice. Or a shadowsword with the perma-cover, as cover is hard to get on such a large model.

Yeah but thats my point. 2 X Tank Ace seems like a no brainer.

I just like 'Fully Loaded' because the only thing better then one Sunderance is three.

It is stronger than any of the warlord traits except old grudges when facing a 400+ point target. Losing old grudges will hurt when going up against knights.

If you bring Militarum Tempestus you can always use the new strat to get a second WT and take OG

Depending on whether you're taking scions or not you might want to take a scion trait rather than old grudges. Idk, I don't think we can outright say whether taking 2 tank aces is always the right decision, a lot is going to come down to how each army is built, a list that's banking on scions might well want 2 warlord traits and a single tank ace while other lists want 2 tank aces and a single warlord trait. Definitely nice to have the option however.

It's also worth noting that field commander is a thing and can let us gain one of the vigilus detachment warlord traits.

Babar_babar wrote:
If you bring Militarum Tempestus you can always use the new strat to get a second WT and take OG

There are a few minor problems though. You would be giving OG to a Tempestor. So it sort of restricts the use of that model. You either can't buff your gunline or have to keep the Tempestor back near other units. Plus if you want to use another trait, like grand stratagist, you may lose it if you want to drop your Tempestor with you Scions.

A useful option but it does have drawbacks. I think the best part is that you can decide at the start of the battle, so you have some flexibility.

i think it depends on the matchup. WLT for Grand Stratagist and Old Grudges are very good, and I don't see a 2nd tank ace making up for that.

That tank ace is going to be priority number 1, even with 2+ armor or -1 . I don't think any of the leman russ tank aces are worth taking in this meta, to many things can 1 shot them. Better off just taking tallarn TC and using shoot and scoot to hide.

Indirct fire TA is going to be the go to IMO. Full payload with Emp Arty Wrath detachment shooting twice, ignore LoS and cover with the right combos.

 schadenfreude wrote:

Maxzero wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

Maxzero wrote:
Are the Warlord traits really worth literally giving up 50% damage increase for an artillery piece?

I think that some of the Russ ace abilities are probably worth it. Putting the -1 damage on your Sunderance TC is pretty nice. Or a shadowsword with the perma-cover, as cover is hard to get on such a large model.

Yeah but thats my point. 2 X Tank Ace seems like a no brainer.

I just like 'Fully Loaded' because the only thing better then one Sunderance is three.

It is stronger than any of the warlord traits except old grudges when facing a 400+ point target. Losing old grudges will hurt when going up against knights.

Can you swap tank aces like you can wt depending on what you want?

tneva82 wrote:
Can you swap tank aces like you can wt depending on what you want?

Yes. The first one is done instead of the warlord trait, so it would be whenever you normally do that. The second one is a stratagem, so you can do it at the start of the battle.

Kinda disappointed with the superheavy tank ace abilities tbqh.

I run a bunch of superheavies and these are largely useless. The only marginal one is the cover one, but I typically try to move (since they're quite good at combat and don't have NLOS weapons).

The morale one is cool for lore reasons but not really relevant to gameplay in my opinion.

The one where it keeps its regimental doctrines even while alone is naff.

Extra AP probably good. -3 ain't bad

Maxzero wrote:

Babar_babar wrote:
I do like the Full Payload upgrade on a manticore, the more shoots are amazing and sometimes ap-2 is enought. There is also the new strat to give them +1 to hit which is not available to Basilisks

Yeah but Basilisk have access to 'Aerial Spotters' (at a higher CP cost though).


Either way I am finding it hard not to have 2 'Full Support' Tank Aces whether Manticore or Basilisk.

Are the Warlord traits really worth literally giving up 50% damage increase for an artillery piece?

Tank Ace stratagem specifies: "You can only use this Stratagem once per battle." So no having 2 tank aces I'm afraid.

 Kcalehc wrote:


Tank Ace stratagem specifies: "You can only use this Stratagem once per battle." So no having 2 tank aces I'm afraid.

2nd would be by replacing warlord trait. There's 3 ways to get tank ace(s):

a) replace warlord trait to tank ace. Free(but of course your warlord has no trait then)
b) spend 1CP to give tank ace instead. 1 tank ace, costs CP
c) Combine and b for 2 losing your warlord's trait and CP

Ah, I see that now. Interesting, thanks.

 Kcalehc wrote:
Tank Ace stratagem specifies: "You can only use this Stratagem once per battle." So no having 2 tank aces I'm afraid.

Though a Tallarn Deathstrike, coming on in T3 from Ambush, using Full Payload, and Vortex Missile, could be doing an average of 12 Mortal Wounds to a target, and then D3 MW on units nearby on a 3+, and potentially a further D6 MW on any unit wounded. Pretty sure that's going to clip even a Knight down to next to nothing. Assuming you can get the shot off of course!

You are missing the fact that you can get two aces by trading in your warlord's trait.

Also, full payload won't affect the deathstrike, as it never uses it's damage characteristic.

Edit: beaten to it on that first point...

Edit2: I'm guessing you meant well-stocked magazines, for the shot number reroll. That would work.

tneva82 wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:


Tank Ace stratagem specifies: "You can only use this Stratagem once per battle." So no having 2 tank aces I'm afraid.

2nd would be by replacing warlord trait. There's 3 ways to get tank ace(s):

a) replace warlord trait to tank ace. Free(but of course your warlord has no trait then)
b) spend 1CP to give tank ace instead. 1 tank ace, costs CP
c) Combine and b for 2 losing your warlord's trait and CP

What? Can you clarify point C please. I am not following?

I thought you can only get 2 max, one to replace warlord, and a 2nd for the stratagem for 1 CP.

 Dynas wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Kcalehc wrote:


Tank Ace stratagem specifies: "You can only use this Stratagem once per battle." So no having 2 tank aces I'm afraid.

2nd would be by replacing warlord trait. There's 3 ways to get tank ace(s):

a) replace warlord trait to tank ace. Free(but of course your warlord has no trait then)
b) spend 1CP to give tank ace instead. 1 tank ace, costs CP
c) Combine and b for 2 losing your warlord's trait and CP

What? Can you clarify point C please. I am not following?

I thought you can only get 2 max, one to replace warlord, and a 2nd for the stratagem for 1 CP.

I think that they meant "combine a and b for 2", so the same as you are saying.

Worth noting that taking a Tank Ace instead of a WL Trait still marks that vehicle as your "warlord" for scoring purposes.

It depends on ruleset/scoring mechanism, but its rarely a good idea to put slay the warlord points on a T7/3+ vehicle in the center of the table.

I don't think it does. You could still make a company commander your warlord, he just wouldn't have a trait after you give it up. Unless I missed something.

In ITC format the warlord has to be declared during list submission so I think a tank ace warlord replacement would have to be at the same time, but I'm not sure they will have to FAQ that.

Upon more thought it's really list dependent on which is better.

If I go 2 demolisher manticore and hammer of sunderance tank commander then 2 aces is best.

If I dump the manticore for a 3rd demolisher then a warlord trait would be better. The extra defensive stats for the 3rd demolisher won't matter until the first 2 get blown up.

Id say taking a single ace you want it to be a flat 3 damage artillery piece. As for which you pick, depends on regiment. Manticore is pretty much Catachans and custom tank regiments only in my opinion, without the option to reroll shots it's far too swingy. The basilisk is far more reliable for all regiments and can fire twice a turn with full rerolls using aerial spotter. Yes that's 4cp a turn but that many flat 3 damage shots rerolling to hit is probably worth it, especially with the CP we have laying around.

I could see running two aces time to time, for example if you're fighting an opponent with lots of 2-3 damage weapons and want your hammer of sunderance to live longer, or are fighting VH sisters and know you need ap3 to do anything. But most of the time I'd stick with one I'd imagine. Old grudges and Grand Strategist are just too handy.



In other news, I find myself wondering if you can make the custom regiments Superior to the standby Cadian and Catachan builds. A custom combo regiment using 18" rapid fire and cover on infantry with the vehicle detachment taking reroll shot number and +6" range would be the nastiest I think. Your infantry are the toughest and shootiest point for point of the regiments, although I can see a use for ap1 melee weapons in areas that deal with a lot of ignores cover. Also our tanks can really abuse those two tank traits. Especially since the Spotter detail works on ALL heavy weapons, so hull heavy flamers are actually useful with a 14" range, and stuff like demolishers and Hellhounds have increased range to do their jobs. Yes it leaves Punishers in the cold a bit but even they get +6" range.

You lose regiment specific stuff but I feel being able to get essentially 4 traits on a single army is worth it. These traits let you stay mobile and give you good firepower, and even keeps your infantry around longer. Can't knock that. Key is just maximizing your traits and regular strats to make up for losing something like Overlapping fields of fire or straken. Shame we got relatively few traits, especially when some like the monster Hunter and pyromaniac ones are pretty trash. Eldar got what, 30? I know most were pretty bad but surely they had a few more ideas for IG regiments than that

Unfortunatly the +6'' for Leman Russ weapons only counts for weapons with a range of at least 24''. It would be great otherwise with the flamers, but hey, it's still really good.

I just can't give up the Tallarn movemement doctrine for my vehicles. It just opens up so many different weapon builds. For example, demolishers with plasma sponsons are bit dangerous without Tallarn, as you have a decent chance of melting yourself firing 2d3 plasma that overheat on 2s. Sentinels without Tallarn feel like expensive tarantulas. Same with transports, they just feel like they want to be bunkers.

I am tempted with custom super-heavy doctrines, as Tallarn doesn't really do much for them. A supreme command shadowsword with repairs and gunnery experts would be nice. Add in some combination of 3 commissars/psykers to fill up the slots without the doctrine being important. You could even use the auxilliary tank ace if you think the 3 hqs are a bit of a tax.

I think that I will use the Experienced Eye stratagem often for my Cadian plasma veterans. They usually grav chute from my Valkyries so they need a lieutenant to give them the Take Aim order so they can reroll ones to hit. Fire supercharged, hit on 3s, reroll ones, wound marines on 2s, negates their 3+ armor, and does 2 wounds to do more damage to Primaris marines and other multiwound models. Add an astropath if you want to ignore cover but pick your targets carefully if you want the vets to live more than one turn on their drop zone.

Is this combination good for an infantry army?
-Disciplined Shooters
-Wilderness Survivors

Those only affect infantry, so for vehicles I would probably put them in a separate detachment with a separate regimental doctrine, like say Catachans for my Basilisks, with Sergeant Harker giving them the reroll 1s to hit?

 ph34r wrote:
Is this combination good for an infantry army?
-Disciplined Shooters
-Wilderness Survivors

It seems to be the combo on everybody's lips. I think it will work quite well, although I don't know if things like Catachan/Cadian will be better. The unique relics/stratagems/orders they can get are pretty nice.

 Trickstick wrote:

 ph34r wrote:
Is this combination good for an infantry army?
-Disciplined Shooters
-Wilderness Survivors

It seems to be the combo on everybody's lips. I think it will work quite well, although I don't know if things like Catachan/Cadian will be better. The unique relics/stratagems/orders they can get are pretty nice.

I'll still be bringing some Catachan, but my Cadians will likely be replaced with the custom regiment. The strategem they get is nice, but as most of the games I play are almost purely objective based and against higher toughness targets, I haven't had good use of their regimental bonus in some time.

Looking at wilderness survivors:

If I move normally during the movement phase, then "Move, Move, Move" in the shooting phase, do the infantry still get cover?

Wilderness survivors specifically says the units that "did not advance in the previous movement phase" get benefits of cover.

Hello AM: Tactics - I havent even bought the codex yet and I've never played IG. However - I do have an IG army I picked up.

I want to know what HQs you would run with these tanks or how you would run the troops? I have no local Guard players that run Russes in this amount of spam.

1x Vanquisher LR
1x Executioner (Side Plasma) LR,
3x Leman Russ Main Battle Tank (Side Heavy Bolters)
2x Demolisher Siege Tanks (Side Multi-Meltas, HF Front)
2x Hell Hound
2x Manticores

and 70 Infantry that is mostly unbuilt.

I assumed I'd run some blobs of infantry for a CP battery and then run Valhalan or Catachan. I'm really unfamiliar with how a tank army such as this would run. Would I need to add manticores?

 Stevefamine wrote:
1x Vanquisher LR

Unfortunately, the Vanquisher is horrible these days. However, it makes a really good model to represent the Hammer of Sunderance, a relic battlecannon from the Vigilus Defiant book. The Hammer of Sunderance is really good and makes a great tank commander HQ for your army.