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Biophysical wrote:
What's everybody's preferred HQ to bring en mass?

I would say a mix of all of them, although they all fit differently depending on what else you have.

Company commander: the best order/cost ratio, these are going to be seen a lot. I know I used to hate 2 CCS lists because it felt like a really weird army structure, but now I think I'll just call 1 the Colonel and give him a weapon to make him stand out. Call the rest Majors or Captains.

Primaris: I will probably take one just to play around with psykers. I really don't know how many you need to effectively shield from power, or even if it is necessary. One thing that I have always remembered when looking at buffs and defenses for Guard: is it more efficient to just bring more of the thing I am trying to buff instead?

Tempestors: Take the number of scion squads you have and divide by two. That is how many rod wielding tempestors you should have. A great guy to have in those deep strikes.

Tank Commander: Want to use Russes? Bring a commander or two. Otherwise, don't bother. They are good at upping your Russ damage but are no harder to kill than a normal russ.

Lord Commissar: As you said, this is a Commissar that fights. If you want to get stuck in then a LC with a fist can be pretty good. Otherwise, just bring a normal one.

Overall, I am guessing that company commanders will be the one spammed. However, don't do so to the exclusion of other options. Some will see the cheapest option and take as many as they need to unlock the slots they want. However, the other options can all offer something useful to your army too.

 labmouse42 wrote:
I want to touch base on just how awesome the 4 point guardsman is...

Chaos cultists have a worse LD, a worse save and cost 5 points.
Acolytes, getting 1 more attack are 8 points each.

notice that acolytes have 3 Wounds each.

and i think ork boys are competing for best low-cost model.

Honestly, company commander. Shotguns are free, basically turns him into an extra lasgun within 12" and with his 6" order range he's going to be hugging a nearby squad anyway. And if I have leftover points, boltguns are 1 point. Great for wringing the last point out of a list.

Of course, there's also the fact that if you're just looking to unlock slots he is the cheapest after all. With our blobs broken up into MSUs we're going to want a lot more Orders to sling around anyway. So if you need to fill an HQ slot, it's hard to go wrong with even more commanders.

 ross-128 wrote:
With our blobs broken up into MSUs we're going to want a lot more Orders to sling around anyway. So if you need to fill an HQ slot, it's hard to go wrong with even more commanders.

I've actually been pondering this point slightly. A plasma/autocannon squad is 62 point. So if we give it one order a turn from a company commander, it is pretty much costing half his points as well. That is about a 24% increase in cost. Do the orders increase the effectiveness of the squad 24%? I guess the mathhammer would show it but I personally don't know. Then we have the other problem, which is unit death. Say you have 10 infantry squads, with a mix of officers that give out 10 orders. Great, you can buff all of your squads! However, as soon as you lose a squad (which will happen about 17 femtoseconds after the game starts) then you are wasting orders.

Getting the right number of officers and squads is actually quite a tricky thing. I am starting to think that less officers, which can apply the orders to key units when needed, is actually a better method than trying to spam them.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
I want to touch base on just how awesome the 4 point guardsman is...

Chaos cultists have a worse LD, a worse save and cost 5 points.
Acolytes, getting 1 more attack are 8 points each.

notice that acolytes have 3 Wounds each.

and i think ork boys are competing for best low-cost model.

Orks are pretty great, but nothing will beat Brimstone Horrors. 2 points for 1 wound 4+ invulnerable and mini smite.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
Unless you can convert Rough Riders (conversions from historic models are rather cheap... but will be banned in GW stores) or have too much money to spend on FW squads of them, the only other choice is sentinels anyway.

I don't think that rough riders are a good unit, and I say that as someone with cold one riding guardsmen who really wants to use them. They may be a good counter charge unit, if you can keep them alive. However the outflanking move relies on their ability to make a 9" charge roll, something that is far too unreliable to base a unit around. If they has some kind of "roll 3 and discard lowest" rule, to represent cavalry, then I think I would use them.

On the other hand, 9" is within range of rapid fire plasma guns and plasma pistols, so you could use rough riders as an alternative to suicide scions. They are a bit less flexible in deployment than scions and less good at shooting, but they have two wounds and are better at combat. They pop in, shoot up a high value target, and then attempt their reenactment of the charge of the light brigade. Not super reliable, but if they do pull off the charge after shooting, they are much higher impact than scions, and if they don't they aren't that much worse, while being comparable in cost.

vs 1 wound Marines

Scions: 5 plasma shots => 1.85 kills 2 hot-shots => 0.30 kills Charge (assuming 9" charge is made) => 0.39 kills
TOTAL: 2.54 kills assuming charge is made (2.26 kills including probability of making charge)

Rough Riders: 5 plasma shots => 1.39 kills 2 las-shots => 0.11 kills Charge (assuming 9" charge is made) => 1.89 kills
TOTAL: 3.39 kills assuming charge is made (1.91 kills including probability of making charge)

This doesn't take into account the added benefit of D3 damage hunting lances have against multiwound models, but it makes it clear that while on average a bit worse, Rough Riders do have higher upside if you make the charge, and their point costs are comparable.

Though if my math is off, please do correct me!

Don't have time to read everything in here yet, will later, but anyone else notice scions are troops?

10 scions can take 4 plasma guns and a PP and it comes to 128 including the hellguns for the other 5.

I right now own enough Storm troopers to take 9 of those units one has 4 flamers at the moment and 3 have 4 melta guns....

I laso own 6 hellhounds which are 110....

10 ST squads with all plasma is 1280 add in 6 HH with couple flamers at 660 and I have points to spam in tempestor primes for double order greatness.... Rerolls to over charging plasma or rerolls on melta or wounding with flamers amd hellguns... Utterly broken.

This is the edition of hordes. I mean what in the feth were they thinking making a scion 10ppm and a troop while vets are elites at 6ppm with no kit and no delivery lol. Tanks that transport and are not open topped are dead, no fire points, get out start of turn. Why pay for a transport, a chinera with dual heavy F is 109, it's 110 for the hellhound LMAO you get a flat out superior turret weapon, moves faster and has 1 more wound.. Chimera lost command tank ability, amphibious (lol) but has those useful las gun arrays *eyeroll*

Here is what I came up with, I wasn't trying to be super competitive, and thankfully with a few tweaks, my current army equalled 2,000 exactly. I know that missile launchers aren't as good as lascannons, but I have 18 Tallarn missile teams and don't plan on hunting down 18 Tallarn lascannons to replace them. Only thing I will have to do is track down 2 more Roughrider Sergeants and 3 more Roughriders to finish getting all 20.

HQ:
-Inquisitor Coteaz
-Inquisitor with Force Sword and Plasma Pistol
-Commissar Yarrick
-Company Commander with Plasma Pistol
-Company Commander with Boltgun

ELITE:
-2x Commissar with Boltgun and Power Sword
-2x Platoon Commander with Chainsword and Laspistol (well Autopistol haha)
-4x Command Squad with 2x Plasma Guns and Medi-Pack

TROOPS:
-6x Infantry Squads with Plasma Pistol, Plasma Gun and Missile Launcher

FAST:
-4x 5 man Roughrider Squads with Plasma Pistol

HEAVY:
-4x Heavy Weapon Squads with 3x Missile Launcher
-2x Leman Russ Demolishers with Executioner Plasma Cannon, Plasma Cannon Sponsons and Heavy Stubbed

2,000 Points

 Trickstick wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
With our blobs broken up into MSUs we're going to want a lot more Orders to sling around anyway. So if you need to fill an HQ slot, it's hard to go wrong with even more commanders.

I've actually been pondering this point slightly. A plasma/autocannon squad is 62 point. So if we give it one order a turn from a company commander, it is pretty much costing half his points as well. That is about a 24% increase in cost. Do the orders increase the effectiveness of the squad 24%? I guess the mathhammer would show it but I personally don't know. Then we have the other problem, which is unit death. Say you have 10 infantry squads, with a mix of officers that give out 10 orders. Great, you can buff all of your squads! However, as soon as you lose a squad (which will happen about 17 femtoseconds after the game starts) then you are wasting orders.

Getting the right number of officers and squads is actually quite a tricky thing. I am starting to think that less officers, which can apply the orders to key units when needed, is actually a better method than trying to spam them.

My current plan is to bring just enough for the infantry squads (or just barely enough to fill my mandatory HQ slots, whichever is more relevant at the time), but nothing for the heavy weapon teams. So when infantry squads start getting wiped I can just start dropping Aim or Bring it Down orders on heavy weapon teams instead. Though the officers that lost their squads will have to leg it to the back line unless I'm running a vox network to let them lead from behind. But they could issue themselves a MMM order to do that.

The commander is Infantry, he's the same regiment as himself, there's nothing that says he can't give an Order to himself, there's nothing that says you can't give an Order after advancing, and the MMM order says "instead of shooting", it doesn't say "instead of issuing Orders".

So the way I read it, if a commander loses his infantry squads then he can move and advance in the movement phase, then start the shooting phase by giving himself a MMM order to reach the back line, then issue an order to one of the HWTs.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 labmouse42 wrote:
I want to touch base on just how awesome the 4 point guardsman is...

Chaos cultists have a worse LD, a worse save and cost 5 points.
Acolytes, getting 1 more attack are 8 points each.

notice that acolytes have 3 Wounds each.

and i think ork boys are competing for best low-cost model.

Nice. I did not see that they had 3 wounds each. That's pretty tight.

I also agree that ork boys are amazing, especially now with their STR boost.

 Red Corsair wrote:
...anyone else notice scions are troops?

Yeah I'm quite liking the new Scions. However, I wouldn't use flamers on them because of the 8" range and the 9" deepstrike limit. I'm planning to use a 4x plasma and a 4x melta squad, backed up by a Tempestor with a rod to give orders. Also, don't forget that only up to half of your units can go in reserve, so you will need a decent army on the board as well.

 ross-128 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
With our blobs broken up into MSUs we're going to want a lot more Orders to sling around anyway. So if you need to fill an HQ slot, it's hard to go wrong with even more commanders.

I've actually been pondering this point slightly. A plasma/autocannon squad is 62 point. So if we give it one order a turn from a company commander, it is pretty much costing half his points as well. That is about a 24% increase in cost. Do the orders increase the effectiveness of the squad 24%? I guess the mathhammer would show it but I personally don't know. Then we have the other problem, which is unit death. Say you have 10 infantry squads, with a mix of officers that give out 10 orders. Great, you can buff all of your squads! However, as soon as you lose a squad (which will happen about 17 femtoseconds after the game starts) then you are wasting orders.

Getting the right number of officers and squads is actually quite a tricky thing. I am starting to think that less officers, which can apply the orders to key units when needed, is actually a better method than trying to spam them.

My current plan is to bring just enough for the infantry squads (or just barely enough to fill my mandatory HQ slots, whichever is more relevant at the time), but nothing for the heavy weapon teams. So when infantry squads start getting wiped I can just start dropping Aim or Bring it Down orders on heavy weapon teams instead. Though the officers that lost their squads will have to leg it to the back line unless I'm running a vox network to let them lead from behind. But they could issue themselves a MMM order to do that.

The commander is Infantry, he's the same regiment as himself, there's nothing that says he can't give an Order to himself, there's nothing that says you can't give an Order after advancing, and the MMM order says "instead of shooting", it doesn't say "instead of issuing Orders".

So the way I read it, if a commander loses his infantry squads then he can move and advance in the movement phase, then start the shooting phase by giving himself a MMM order to reach the back line, then issue an order to one of the HWTs.

Honestly if his squishy ass survives all that then he deserves the reward


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
...anyone else notice scions are troops?

Yeah I'm quite liking the new Scions. However, I wouldn't use flamers on them because of the 8" range and the 9" deepstrike limit. I'm planning to use a 4x plasma and a 4x melta squad, backed up by a Tempestor with a rod to give orders. Also, don't forget that only up to half of your units can go in reserve, so you will need a decent army on the board as well.

Yea thought of that, just split a couple units and spam hellhounds I know flamers are not the best choice for them but just mentioned I have 4 modeled, probably magnetize their barrel to look like meltas if I need it to. Can't break apart those converted flamers they look too sweet.

I am noticing every army is best off as a horde. I mean, look at orks. 6ppm was WAY to cheap IMO for marine stats (trade the BS for the attack and your there) while also having that insanely strong mob rule and ere we go... I mean what on earth were they thinking, with weird boys they can literally encircle someone and cover the table with battle shock immune marine equivalents. 30 choppa boys is 180... so 300 for 1800... come on GW. Nothing can kill that much while being hit 4 times in the face at s4. Thats 1200 attacks turn 1, obviously it will decline but thats insane damage output for the cost cost. hell go all shootas and thats 600 s4 shots a turn PLUS 900 s4 attacks in assault. It feels like we need to prepare for the ork meta IMO.

You know Red Corsair, that is a great point... but in all honesty I would have nothing against seeing more Ork players. I've grown quite use to uphill battles anyways, and I think it's finally time Orks got a boost. Plus, I use Yarrick, I love me some thematic battles

The elites slots have so much competition now, is there any reason to bring junior officers? They are less points efficient for orders take up valuable space that could be filled with commissars or special weapons-toting guardsmen.

 Red Corsair wrote:


Honestly if his squishy ass survives all that then he deserves the reward

In practical terms Brave Sir Robin would probably be fleeing when the squads become combat ineffective rather than being completely wiped out, so they should have a small handful of models left to protect him with the IC targeting rule.

Technically doing that would probably raise a few eyebrows among the Commissars though. Lucky for him that's not represented in the rules!

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
You know Red Corsair, that is a great point... but in all honesty I would have nothing against seeing more Ork players. I've grown quite use to uphill battles anyways, and I think it's finally time Orks got a boost. Plus, I use Yarrick, I love me some thematic battles

Hey don't get me wrong, I think the two best armies as of now are Orks and Nids, and I welcome both. But you have to facepalm at the math. Lets say we spam marines, 150 marines is 1950, not bad, but it only puts out 150 shots over 12, then in close range gets 300 plus another 100 in assault... just comparing that to the shear volume of the ork attack.. it's 50 bolter wounds at range, 100 at close vs t4 plus ~45 in assault. Compare that to the orks 100 wounds at only 6" shorter plus 300!!! wounds in assault! Oh and it is 150 pts cheaper


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
The elites slots have so much competition now, is there any reason to bring junior officers? They are less points efficient for orders take up valuable space that could be filled with commissars or special weapons-toting guardsmen.

Well i'd say its a trade, sure vets are elites but storm troopers are troopers now. I am banging that same drum, but if you want special weapons now, the best two ways are storm troops at the #1 and hilariously rough riders at the #2 as they are FA and much better then special weapon or vet/basic infantry. They move double, can take 2 guns per 5 and yet again come with special deployment rules and double the wounds... The costs are all over the map in these indexes. I mean what would you take, a primaris marine hellblaster 39 pts or a storm trooper with a plasma gun at 16?

 Red Corsair wrote:
Hey don't get me wrong, I think the two best armies as of now are Orks and Nids, and I welcome both. But you have to facepalm at the math. Lets say we spam marines, 150 marines is 1950, not bad, but it only puts out 150 shots over 12, then in close range gets 300 plus another 100 in assault... just comparing that to the shear volume of the ork attack.. it's 50 bolter wounds at range, 100 at close vs t4 plus ~45 in assault. Compare that to the orks 100 wounds at only 6" shorter plus 300!!! wounds in assault! Oh and it is 150 pts cheaper

I played horde orks for a while, and I can tell you that's getting them all into the fight takes time.
Orks are going to be awesome. I expect they will be 'fully competitive'. I don't however, expect them to auto-win every game.

Slaanesh daemonettes will tear orks a new donkey-cave. 3 of them actually. Artfully arranged in a random pattern.

Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Hey don't get me wrong, I think the two best armies as of now are Orks and Nids, and I welcome both. But you have to facepalm at the math. Lets say we spam marines, 150 marines is 1950, not bad, but it only puts out 150 shots over 12, then in close range gets 300 plus another 100 in assault... just comparing that to the shear volume of the ork attack.. it's 50 bolter wounds at range, 100 at close vs t4 plus ~45 in assault. Compare that to the orks 100 wounds at only 6" shorter plus 300!!! wounds in assault! Oh and it is 150 pts cheaper

I played horde orks for a while, and I can tell you that's getting them all into the fight takes time.
Orks are going to be awesome. I expect they will be 'fully competitive'. I don't however, expect them to auto-win every game.

Slaanesh daemonettes will tear orks a new donkey-cave. 3 of them actually. Artfully arranged in a random pattern.

Yea my fast and lose math is at a very basic scenario because I hate trying to play the hypothetical game. That said, this edition is way easier on the orks then early 5th. Nothing is an auto win against anyone worth playing, that said if your assume equal skill on both sides (which I always do for these hypotheticals) orks are much more forgiving, thus easier to play. In regard to demonettes, they are a great counter, but I am not sold on their durability yet since they dont have a solid answer to battleshock like the orks and are much more fragile.

On the topic of HQ choices:

What do you think about putting an Officer of the Fleet on a fighting Valkyrie? Rerolling 1s on targets within 18" for 20pts plus his little strafe ability. It seems a bit expensive but fun. Probably totally worth it if you use more than 1 Valkyrie.

 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

Seriously? a plasma gun is 6 points, a hellgun is 1. So for 6 points you get another -1 rend, more then double the strength and nearly triple the strength and double the damage with over charging. It is cheap and sacrificial lol.

 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

Well, keep in mind two of the orders are re-rolling 1s to hit and re-rolling 1s to wound. So you do have damage-boosting options for non-lasguns, though they're not nearly the straight-up doubling you get from FRFSRF.

Re-rolling 1s on plasma guns lets you recklessly overcharge them though, and that does quite literally double their damage.

I think it would be interesting to see how the mathhammer works out though for wounds-per-point though, for FRFSRF hot-shot squads vs Aim+Overcharge plasma squads (though I'm sure it depends very much on the Toughness of your target).

 Mr.Moe wrote:
On the topic of HQ choices:

What do you think about putting an Officer of the Fleet on a fighting Valkyrie? Rerolling 1s on targets within 18" for 20pts plus his little strafe ability. It seems a bit expensive but fun. Probably totally worth it if you use more than 1 Valkyrie.

Well a Valkyrie is 160 with it's base guns, plus now your adding in the OotF for 25. So 185 isn't terrible compared to other armies fliers but your not puting out all that much damage. I really dislike the one time use abilities that only work half the time, granted you can make it a 75% chance with a command point, but I don't want to spend those before the game starts personally.

Is this where we can start to see the merit of the Missile Launcher over the Lascannon for a good all around heavy weapon? S8 AP-2 with D6 damage is still nothing to sneeze at, but the Frag option, what is it D3 shots at S4? Against the standard Ork Boyz save it will give us some good ranged anti horde firepower if there isn't any good hard targets.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Is this where we can start to see the merit of the Missile Launcher over the Lascannon for a good all around heavy weapon? S8 AP-2 with D6 damage is still nothing to sneeze at, but the Frag option, what is it D3 shots at S4? Against the standard Ork Boyz save it will give us some good ranged anti horde firepower if there isn't any good hard targets.

The Krak missile is Heavy 1 S8 AP-2 D6, so certainly competitive with the lascannon.
The frag missile is Heavy d6 S4 AP0 D1, not bad for a secondary fire.

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea my fast and lose math is at a very basic scenario because I hate trying to play the hypothetical game. That said, this edition is way easier on the orks then early 5th. Nothing is an auto win against anyone worth playing, that said if your assume equal skill on both sides (which I always do for these hypotheticals) orks are much more forgiving, thus easier to play. In regard to demonettes, they are a great counter, but I am not sold on their durability yet since they dont have a solid answer to battleshock like the orks and are much more fragile.

Greater daemons and icons seem to be the keys to mitigate battleshock. The greater daemon gives the unit a LD of 10. A herald gives them STR 4. A DP lets them reroll 1's to hit, which works well with rending. Banners mean that 1/6 of the time they get bigger when suffering battleshock tests.
I'm noticing a theme with this edition where support units are really critical.

 ross-128 wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

Well, keep in mind two of the orders are re-rolling 1s to hit and re-rolling 1s to wound. So you do have damage-boosting options for non-lasguns, though they're not nearly the straight-up doubling you get from FRFSRF.

Re-rolling 1s on plasma guns lets you recklessly overcharge them though, and that does quite literally double their damage.

I think it would be interesting to see how the mathhammer works out though for wounds-per-point though, for FRFSRF hot-shot squads vs Aim+Overcharge plasma squads (though I'm sure it depends very much on the Toughness of your target).

Yea your stuck with one order per unit I believe which makes the hellguns very strong honestly but once you hit that t6 mark they lode 50% of their damage while over charged plasma or melta runs away with the damage once you twin link the wounding or hitting.

 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

Hotshots have a 9" rapid fire range, which you must be outside of if you drop. That makes the 12" range from melta or rapid fire plasma really useful.

 Mr.Moe wrote:
What do you think about putting an Officer of the Fleet on a fighting Valkyrie?

If you are in a transport, you cant interact in any way with anything unless specifically stated otherwise.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
Yea my fast and lose math is at a very basic scenario because I hate trying to play the hypothetical game. That said, this edition is way easier on the orks then early 5th. Nothing is an auto win against anyone worth playing, that said if your assume equal skill on both sides (which I always do for these hypotheticals) orks are much more forgiving, thus easier to play. In regard to demonettes, they are a great counter, but I am not sold on their durability yet since they dont have a solid answer to battleshock like the orks and are much more fragile.

Greater daemons and icons seem to be the keys to mitigate battleshock. The greater daemon gives the unit a LD of 10. A herald gives them STR 4. A DP lets them reroll 1's to hit, which works well with rending. Banners mean that 1/6 of the time they get bigger when suffering battleshock tests.
I'm noticing a theme with this edition where support units are really critical.

Yea, it's similar to AoD where stacking buffs is the key. That said, I like the orks more still since they not only come with an engineered set of buffs but they also provide a buff themselves. That and they also work in both killing phases. That alone is the tie break IMHO, I have played slaanesh demons and love them, but the lack of shooting means smart players can restrict your mobility and charges with bubble wrap and smart movement which is frustrating at times. The heralds are awesome BTY and I like the keeper even though lets be honest, that buff is going away very quickly since he is exposed and he isn't cheap.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Honestly with orders I have a hard time justifying special weapons on the scions. Keep them cheap and sacrificial. A few scions drop in with a tempestor and you try to position them for some character hunting.

Hotshots have a 9" rapid fire range, which you must be outside of if you drop. That makes the 12" range from melta or rapid fire plasma really useful.

 Mr.Moe wrote:
What do you think about putting an Officer of the Fleet on a fighting Valkyrie?

If you are in a transport, you cant interact in any way with anything unless specifically stated otherwise.

Two awesome points, first one I KEEP forgetting. DEFINITELY take specials on scions...I mean storm troopers

 Red Corsair wrote:
Two awesome points, first one I KEEP forgetting. DEFINITELY take specials on scions...I mean storm troopers

Or Kasrkin... (-:

Actually, I have 30 Kasrkin and a Scion command squad. I'm conflicted in my loyalties.