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Biophysical wrote:
Has anyone had any luck with good ideas for Sentinels (either type)?

I'm not sold on the Scout move for most heavy weapons, and having a -1 modified for moving with no flanks to exploit means the speed and movement is only important to close range weaponry. 52 poijts gets you a Heavy Flamer that is probably in range on turn 1. 9" Scout + 9" move + Advance is pretty far for putting autohitting flamers into people. Heavy Flamers are solid in that role. If you don't Advance, but have someone in charge range, you can charge, prevent someone from shooting, and if they fall back, hit them with flamers. If you get charged, it's a pretty mean overwatch. It's less about raw firepower (10.5 S5ap-1 hits per turn for 156 points) than about disrupting enemy options.

I think rough riders are much better personally but that said I could see a stalk ML sentinel as something for objective grabbing. 9" scout plus 9" move + advance is a solid move. Just don't expect it to do much damage or survive long vs main line troops anymore.

Eversor does almost as much damage point by point as Ork Boyz with Choppas and Sluggas, against MEQ. Pistols and close combat included

Eversor 16.66 points spent per wound caused, Orks 15,46 points per wound caused.

In the survivability section, the Orks come with with almost twice the wounds for the price (11.6 wounds), but the Eversor has a pretty good save, again closing the gap somewhat, but not quite. If the Eversor ever does become the target of shooting, he's vulnerable to multiwound weapons, while the Ork Boyz aren't.

What the Eversor does have over the Orks, is speed.

My opinion? If the Eversor comes rather close to Ork Boyz both in offensive bang for buck, and decently close in survivability, and Ork Boyz are the benchmark for close combat effectiveness, the Eversor is so far the best <Imperial> assault unit that's been mentioned in this thread. It even has a decent chance of the first turn charge, if you want to play a bunch of them aggressively, charging whatever the Plasma Scions already shot to pieces.

 Red Corsair wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
Has anyone had any luck with good ideas for Sentinels (either type)?

I'm not sold on the Scout move for most heavy weapons, and having a -1 modified for moving with no flanks to exploit means the speed and movement is only important to close range weaponry. 52 poijts gets you a Heavy Flamer that is probably in range on turn 1. 9" Scout + 9" move + Advance is pretty far for putting autohitting flamers into people. Heavy Flamers are solid in that role. If you don't Advance, but have someone in charge range, you can charge, prevent someone from shooting, and if they fall back, hit them with flamers. If you get charged, it's a pretty mean overwatch. It's less about raw firepower (10.5 S5ap-1 hits per turn for 156 points) than about disrupting enemy options.

I think rough riders are much better personally but that said I could see a stalk ML sentinel as something for objective grabbing. 9" scout plus 9" move + advance is a solid move. Just don't expect it to do much damage or survive long vs main line troops anymore.

Unless I missed something, heavy flamers are heavy, so they cannot shoot after advance. Which is a bummer!

Does it make anyone else feel even a little bit dirty that we're now talking about taking "a bunch of" Eversor Assassins? Not a criticism at all btw, I'm all about strapping on the beard when it's that time. Maybe it's that I like the idea a little too much...

 Red Corsair wrote:


No it definitely is 1" range to enemies, check the rules. I think your hung up on rules from older editions, which is understandable, I keep forgetting things like vehicles overwatching and flamers now doing d6 auto hits on overwatch.

No, it's definitely within 1" of an enemy model OR 1" of a model from its unit that is within 1" of an enemy model. Looking at it right now. Page 182, Section 5, 3. Choose Targets.

 Therion wrote:
Eversor does almost as much damage point by point as Ork Boyz with Choppas and Sluggas, against MEQ. Pistols and close combat included

Eversor 16.66 points spent per wound caused, Orks 15,46 points per wound caused.

In the survivability section, the Orks come with with almost twice the wounds for the price (11.6 wounds), but the Eversor has a pretty good save, again closing the gap somewhat, but not quite. If the Eversor ever does become the target of shooting, he's vulnerable to multiwound weapons, while the Ork Boyz aren't.

My opinion? If the Eversor comes rather close to Ork Boyz both in offensive bang for buck, and decently close in survivability, and Ork Boyz are the benchmark for close combat effectiveness, the Eversor is so far the best <Imperial> assault unit that's been mentioned in this thread. It even has a decent chance of the first turn charge, if you want to play a bunch of them aggressively, charging whatever the Plasma Scions already shot to pieces.

It's not the point per wound that is important with assassins, but more the opportunity to remove the opponents supporting units. If you can use an assassin to take out a key part of the opponents army at the right time then you are getting far more value from your points than just the wounds you have caused. I would guess that the support characters will be deep inside enemy units though, if you are already threatening them with Scion drops. It depends on what form deepstrike and counter-deepstrike tactics take when 8th gets underway in full.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
Does it make anyone else feel even a little bit dirty that we're now talking about taking "a bunch of" Eversor Assassins? Not a criticism at all btw, I'm all about strapping on the beard when it's that time. Maybe it's that I like the idea a little too much...

It's a brand new day, a whole new era

Three of them cost just 210 points which is fairly standard for an assault unit. The three guys go through 12,6 Marines on the charge It might look like it's just three guys, but they got 18 wounds and 4+ invulnerable saves, so it's really an assault squad

 Trickstick wrote:

 Therion wrote:
Eversor does almost as much damage point by point as Ork Boyz with Choppas and Sluggas, against MEQ. Pistols and close combat included

Eversor 16.66 points spent per wound caused, Orks 15,46 points per wound caused.

In the survivability section, the Orks come with with almost twice the wounds for the price (11.6 wounds), but the Eversor has a pretty good save, again closing the gap somewhat, but not quite. If the Eversor ever does become the target of shooting, he's vulnerable to multiwound weapons, while the Ork Boyz aren't.

My opinion? If the Eversor comes rather close to Ork Boyz both in offensive bang for buck, and decently close in survivability, and Ork Boyz are the benchmark for close combat effectiveness, the Eversor is so far the best <Imperial> assault unit that's been mentioned in this thread. It even has a decent chance of the first turn charge, if you want to play a bunch of them aggressively, charging whatever the Plasma Scions already shot to pieces.

It's not the point per wound that is important with assassins, but more the opportunity to remove the opponents supporting units. If you can use an assassin to take out a key part of the opponents army at the right time then you are getting far more value from your points than just the wounds you have caused. I would guess that the support characters will be deep inside enemy units though, if you are already threatening them with Scion drops. It depends on what form deepstrike and counter-deepstrike tactics take when 8th gets underway in full.

I agree with you, but if the utility came at the cost of being points ineffective, I doubt I would entertain the idea of using them. If you find that they're also quite cheap for their actual combat abilities, we can rank them high.

I think we may see a lot of Eversors in AM armies in competitive contexts. The list needs some punch anyway, and those guys do hit like a ton of bricks. I'd rather not field a trio of models jumping off that half-moon piece of masonry though, so maybe some converting is in order. Or mix in the the older sculpt. Something anyway.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I think we may see a lot of Eversors in AM armies in competitive contexts. The list needs some punch anyway, and those guys do hit like a ton of bricks. I'd rather not field a trio of models jumping off that half-moon piece of masonry though, so maybe some converting is in order. Or mix in the the older sculpt. Something anyway.

Looks good, because of their deployment and the 3D6 charge, and because of how much damage they do point by point. We haven't even taken into account the bio-meltdown, which is worth something.

That said, we're discovering some useful additions to the core of the army every few hours, so we'll see how this ends up developing. Right now we got Scions in two setups, Gatling T Primes, Heavy Weapon Squads, Manticores and Eversor and Culexus Assassins. It's already an army, but more variety and additions wouldn't hurt.

 Therion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I think we may see a lot of Eversors in AM armies in competitive contexts. The list needs some punch anyway, and those guys do hit like a ton of bricks. I'd rather not field a trio of models jumping off that half-moon piece of masonry though, so maybe some converting is in order. Or mix in the the older sculpt. Something anyway.

Looks good, because of their deployment and the 3D6 charge, and because of how much damage they do point by point. We haven't even taken into account the bio-meltdown, which is worth something.

That said, we're discovering some useful additions to the core of the army every few hours, so we'll see how this ends up developing. Right now we got Scions in two setups, Gatling T Primes, Heavy Weapon Squads, Manticores and Eversor and Culexus Assassins. It's already an army, but more variety and additions wouldn't hurt.

Don't forget Yarrick - that re-roll bubble has a breakpoint where I think it's friggin' awesome. Say, on three or four Manticores in a box...

 Fenris-77 wrote:

 Therion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I think we may see a lot of Eversors in AM armies in competitive contexts. The list needs some punch anyway, and those guys do hit like a ton of bricks. I'd rather not field a trio of models jumping off that half-moon piece of masonry though, so maybe some converting is in order. Or mix in the the older sculpt. Something anyway.

Looks good, because of their deployment and the 3D6 charge, and because of how much damage they do point by point. We haven't even taken into account the bio-meltdown, which is worth something.

That said, we're discovering some useful additions to the core of the army every few hours, so we'll see how this ends up developing. Right now we got Scions in two setups, Gatling T Primes, Heavy Weapon Squads, Manticores and Eversor and Culexus Assassins. It's already an army, but more variety and additions wouldn't hurt.

Don't forget Yarrick - that re-roll bubble has a breakpoint where I think it's friggin' awesome. Say, on three or four Manticores in a box...

Yep. He's a force multiplier in a lot of deployments. If you get a good firebase at a central location, depending on terrain, you might be able to buff all of your T Primes and Manticores. Someone not as tired as me could math hammer that too (How many additional unsaved wounds to the enemy his proximity to friendly units causes and what the damage per point value of that is). He seems like a solid competitor for the HQ job.

As a bonus, since we're so worried about Orks, I think he's a soft counter of sorts. 6 Taurox Primes unleashing 180 shots total, hitting on 3+ and re-rolling all misses, well, that's not going to be pretty for the Ork Boyz.

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I think we may see a lot of Eversors in AM armies in competitive contexts. The list needs some punch anyway, and those guys do hit like a ton of bricks. I'd rather not field a trio of models jumping off that half-moon piece of masonry though, so maybe some converting is in order. Or mix in the the older sculpt. Something anyway.

or something indeed....

 Therion wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:

 Therion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I think we may see a lot of Eversors in AM armies in competitive contexts. The list needs some punch anyway, and those guys do hit like a ton of bricks. I'd rather not field a trio of models jumping off that half-moon piece of masonry though, so maybe some converting is in order. Or mix in the the older sculpt. Something anyway.

Looks good, because of their deployment and the 3D6 charge, and because of how much damage they do point by point. We haven't even taken into account the bio-meltdown, which is worth something.

That said, we're discovering some useful additions to the core of the army every few hours, so we'll see how this ends up developing. Right now we got Scions in two setups, Gatling T Primes, Heavy Weapon Squads, Manticores and Eversor and Culexus Assassins. It's already an army, but more variety and additions wouldn't hurt.

Don't forget Yarrick - that re-roll bubble has a breakpoint where I think it's friggin' awesome. Say, on three or four Manticores in a box...

Yep. He's a force multiplier in a lot of deployments. If you get a good firebase at a central location, depending on terrain, you might be able to buff all of your T Primes and Manticores. Someone not as tired as me could math hammer that too (How many additional unsaved wounds to the enemy his proximity to friendly units causes and what the damage per point value of that is). He seems like a solid competitor for the HQ job.

As a bonus, since we're so worried about Orks, I think he's a soft counter of sorts. 6 Taurox Primes unleashing 180 shots total, hitting on 3+ and re-rolling all misses, well, that's not going to be pretty for the Ork Boyz.

Getting all 6 Tauroxes within 6" of Yarrick could be tricky for LOS, but I bet you could do a wagon laager of four Taurox Primes up front and four Manticores in back and be able to shoot everything with rerolls. And .... now i feel dirty again.

 Fenris-77 wrote:

 Therion wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:

 Therion wrote:

Spoiler:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I think we may see a lot of Eversors in AM armies in competitive contexts. The list needs some punch anyway, and those guys do hit like a ton of bricks. I'd rather not field a trio of models jumping off that half-moon piece of masonry though, so maybe some converting is in order. Or mix in the the older sculpt. Something anyway.

Looks good, because of their deployment and the 3D6 charge, and because of how much damage they do point by point. We haven't even taken into account the bio-meltdown, which is worth something.

That said, we're discovering some useful additions to the core of the army every few hours, so we'll see how this ends up developing. Right now we got Scions in two setups, Gatling T Primes, Heavy Weapon Squads, Manticores and Eversor and Culexus Assassins. It's already an army, but more variety and additions wouldn't hurt.

Don't forget Yarrick - that re-roll bubble has a breakpoint where I think it's friggin' awesome. Say, on three or four Manticores in a box...

Yep. He's a force multiplier in a lot of deployments. If you get a good firebase at a central location, depending on terrain, you might be able to buff all of your T Primes and Manticores. Someone not as tired as me could math hammer that too (How many additional unsaved wounds to the enemy his proximity to friendly units causes and what the damage per point value of that is). He seems like a solid competitor for the HQ job.

As a bonus, since we're so worried about Orks, I think he's a soft counter of sorts. 6 Taurox Primes unleashing 180 shots total, hitting on 3+ and re-rolling all misses, well, that's not going to be pretty for the Ork Boyz.

Getting all 6 Tauroxes within 6" of Yarrick could be tricky, but I bet you could do a wagon laager of four Taurox Primes up front and four Manticores in back and be able to shoot everything with rerolls. And .... now i feel dirty again.

Since all models can now draw LOS and shoot from any point of the model, even the corner of a track, I don't think it'll be that hard. If those 6 Taurox shoot Orks, Yarrick's ability will cause 40 additional hits ^_^

If you have seen a Taurox, the thing is tiny. I think 6 would be doable. Of course, as soon as something multi-charges you then everything is dead. A mass of conscripts and a backup commissar can handle that though.

 Polonius wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
Has anyone had any luck with good ideas for Sentinels (either type)?

I'm not sold on the Scout move for most heavy weapons, and having a -1 modified for moving with no flanks to exploit means the speed and movement is only important to close range weaponry. 52 poijts gets you a Heavy Flamer that is probably in range on turn 1. 9" Scout + 9" move + Advance is pretty far for putting autohitting flamers into people. Heavy Flamers are solid in that role. If you don't Advance, but have someone in charge range, you can charge, prevent someone from shooting, and if they fall back, hit them with flamers. If you get charged, it's a pretty mean overwatch. It's less about raw firepower (10.5 S5ap-1 hits per turn for 156 points) than about disrupting enemy options.

I think rough riders are much better personally but that said I could see a stalk ML sentinel as something for objective grabbing. 9" scout plus 9" move + advance is a solid move. Just don't expect it to do much damage or survive long vs main line troops anymore.

Unless I missed something, heavy flamers are heavy, so they cannot shoot after advance. Which is a bummer!

Aww, crap, you're right. 18"+8" gun is still a lot if threat first turn, I suppose.

It's the R-rated version of 40K. Close your eyes kids, Yarrick is going to whip out his beat stick and give those Orks the business. Dakkadakkadakka...

 Polonius wrote:

 Fenris-77 wrote:
I think we may see a lot of Eversors in AM armies in competitive contexts. The list needs some punch anyway, and those guys do hit like a ton of bricks. I'd rather not field a trio of models jumping off that half-moon piece of masonry though, so maybe some converting is in order. Or mix in the the older sculpt. Something anyway.

or something indeed....

Dude fantastic idea.

Can anyone tell me more about the demolisher? i'm not well informed but it is my understanding that blasts suck ass now.
I'm hoping its not true because I bought one of the forgeworld demolisher turrets. :sadface:

I'm actually seriously looking at Yarrick now. Previously he was just way too expensive points-wise to justify the cost.

But now...

 STG wrote:
Can anyone tell me more about the demolisher? i'm not well informed but it is my understanding that blasts suck ass now.
I'm hoping its not true because I bought one of the forgeworld demolisher turrets. :sadface:

Actually, I feel that it might be getting a bit better this edition, when combined with certain orders.

Is the general feeling that LR tanks are better than before, but not as good as mechanized?

 deltaKshatriya wrote:


Is the general feeling that LR tanks are better than before, but not as good as mechanized?

Depends. Most variants are overpriced by a fair bit compared to their firepower, while the Punisher is extremely good now, especially with Pask. No reason to take Exterminators whatsoever (they took a massive hit with the nerf bat for whatever reason) and little reason to take a LRBT when you can just take an Eradicator for +3 points instead. Vanquisher still very situational (and suffers from Punishers now being more flexible against MCs and tanks) and Executioners suffer from the fact that plasma stormtroopers do their job much better, cheaper, are more reliable and take less of an investment to reliably overcharge.

I also doubt that mechanized will be much of a meta for the Guard, Veterans got nerfed, Stormtroopers get free "place 'em when and where you want" transportation, Chimeras are very, very pricy (let alone the Valkyrie which easily breaches 200 points now) and it seems people will be more interested in the Taurox, at least the Prime, as an immobile shooting plattform than as a troop transport.

Well, I was hoping for improved BS this edition, but ah well, I guess not.

The Vanquisher imo suffers mainly from BS issues: math works out to not enough wounds.

The Demolisher seems ok to me.

Eradictor is a lot better now, surprisingly.

The Punisher, which imo, was pretty good before, is now even better.

I feel an all armored list is possible tho to be competitive. Before it wasn't very possible tbh

Mechanised suffers from the fact that moving vehicles lose BS. It just makes keeping them still much more tempting. Even sentinels are better off standing still. About the only vehicle I could see myself moving are the hellhounds using flamers and chem cannons, because they auto hit.

Can Pask give orders to himself? From what i can read it doesen't seem so cuz the rules say he can give orders to other russ characters. And if he cannot, would it be a good idea to bring 2 executioner buddies that super charge all the time with pask's reroll 1 order.

And what is the best Heavy Weapons Team loadout? Im thinking if its better to bring Loads of mortars (they are dirt cheap and will be a good way to deal with hordes) and Las Cannons, or to only go Missile Launchers due to thier versatility

 ThePie wrote:
Can Pask give orders to himself? From what i can read it doesen't seem so cuz the rules say he can give orders to other russ characters. And if he cannot, would it be a good idea to bring 2 executioner buddies that super charge all the time with pask's reroll 1 order.

Yeah he can't, which makes putting him into a plasma tank pretty dangerous. He would probably do well in an exterminator or punisher with HBs and lascannon, instead of taking plasma.

 ThePie wrote:
And what is the best Heavy Weapons Team loadout? Im thinking if its better to bring Loads of mortars (they are dirt cheap and will be a good way to deal with hordes) and Las Cannons, or to only go Missile Launchers due to thier versatility

I would say mortars out of LOS, or 2 bolters and a las for other teams. Split fire made it unnecessary to take 3x the same weapon, and firing 1 lascannon at a time is a great way to not overkill. Plus, a HWT with a bolter is like 12 points...

 Trickstick wrote:

 ThePie wrote:
Can Pask give orders to himself? From what i can read it doesen't seem so cuz the rules say he can give orders to other russ characters. And if he cannot, would it be a good idea to bring 2 executioner buddies that super charge all the time with pask's reroll 1 order.

Yeah he can't, which makes putting him into a plasma tank pretty dangerous. He would probably do well in an exterminator or punisher with HBs and lascannon, instead of taking plasma.

 ThePie wrote:
And what is the best Heavy Weapons Team loadout? Im thinking if its better to bring Loads of mortars (they are dirt cheap and will be a good way to deal with hordes) and Las Cannons, or to only go Missile Launchers due to thier versatility

I would say mortars out of LOS, or 2 bolters and a las for other teams. Split fire made it unnecessary to take 3x the same weapon, and firing 1 lascannon at a time is a great way to not overkill. Plus, a HWT with a bolter is like 12 points...

Ah, i meant if i should take pask (probably a punisher) with 2 plasma russes buddies (so not to waste his orders), since it seems that super charging russes can put out alot of damage, and pask lets them do it pretty safely, from what i can see, the emergency plasma vents only affects plasma cannon sponsons, so emergency plasma vent wont mess up your main cannon (which only gives 1d6 mortal wounds if you would happen to roll 3 1's in a row).

And yeah, Using Heavy Bolter's instead of Mortars might be a good idea, The extra Str and -1 AP will make dealing with infantry alot easier, especially for just 3 points extra over the mortar.

 ThePie wrote:
Ah, i meant if i should take pask (probably a punisher) with 2 plasma russes buddies (so not to waste his orders), since it seems that super charging russes can put out alot of damage, and pask lets them do it pretty safely, from what i can see, the emergency plasma vents only affects plasma cannon sponsons, so emergency plasma vent wont mess up your main cannon (which only gives 1d6 mortal wounds if you would happen to roll 3 1's in a row).

And yeah, Using Heavy Bolter's instead of Mortars might be a good idea, The extra Str and -1 AP will make dealing with infantry alot easier, especially for just 3 points extra over the mortar.

Oh yeah, Pask can be a really useful buffer for Russes. Don't forget that he is allowed to give orders to tank commanders, which normally have a restriction saying that they can't give orders to characters.

I would probably still use some mortars because of how cheap and effective they are. They can go in those places in your deployment zone which are usually such horrible places to put units, like behind a building or your vehicle line.

 Trickstick wrote:

 ThePie wrote:
Ah, i meant if i should take pask (probably a punisher) with 2 plasma russes buddies (so not to waste his orders), since it seems that super charging russes can put out alot of damage, and pask lets them do it pretty safely, from what i can see, the emergency plasma vents only affects plasma cannon sponsons, so emergency plasma vent wont mess up your main cannon (which only gives 1d6 mortal wounds if you would happen to roll 3 1's in a row).

And yeah, Using Heavy Bolter's instead of Mortars might be a good idea, The extra Str and -1 AP will make dealing with infantry alot easier, especially for just 3 points extra over the mortar.

Oh yeah, Pask can be a really useful buffer for Russes. Don't forget that he is allowed to give orders to tank commanders, which normally have a restriction saying that they can't give orders to characters.

I would probably still use some mortars because of how cheap and effective they are. They can go in those places in your deployment zone which are usually such horrible places to put units, like behind a building or your vehicle line.

Is it worth upgrading normal russes to tank commanders for 35 pts? They cant command other characters so with pask and 2 commanders thier orders goes to waste (and i hate being wasteful hehe), on the other hand they help fill up HQ slots, which makes it easier to get thoose delicous command points.

And how many Heavy Weapon Teams do you think is enough? I was thinking something like 3 Heavy Bolter Squads, 3 Las Cannon Squads and 3 Mortar Squads at 1500 pts

If you have enough of them and space them out right, you could also use cheap HWTs to turn everything within 18" of your board edge (9" from the edge to the HWTs, then 9" from the HWTs to the front end of their exclusion zone) into a no-teleport zone, which would give your front lines a good deal of room to push forward without worrying about things appearing behind them.

Well, other than the occasional unit like Lictors that ignore the 9" rule. When something only has a 3" exclusion zone (or 1", in the case of the Mawloc) there's not much you can do about it other than shoot it to death after it appears.

With 2" coherency and three 60mm two-man bases per team, let's see... 60mm is a bit over 2" itself, so each HWS can theoretically cover a 10" stretch on its own, and then you have 18" between teams for 28" of coverage per team. (although you'll probably want to place them closer together to avoid holes along the edges of the no-teleport zone). If you're deploying along the long board edge you've got 72" you want to cover, which you can do if you have 3 or more HWS.

Of course, it probably won't take your opponent long to figure out that he can just kill one of the HWS to put a hole in your no-teleport zone, but adding that extra step might at least stall him for a turn. Especially since with them sitting comfortably in the rear with their 48" range weapons, their options for shooting at them will be limited to weapons they probably wanted to use on something more expensive.