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You know, I wouldn't mind stationary artillery being an independent model that just also needs infantry in coherency to function. Especially if it was fired at the operating unit's BS instead of its own... because I'd totally take a barebones command squad to use as a BS3+ artillery crew.

They probably won't do that though.

I think they might do something like what GW did for Ork artillery; the crew are a separate unit that can't be targeted unless it's the closest unit, but the gun can't shoot without a unit of crew is nearby.

the criticism directed at the Russ, that the guys at Frontline gaming, who helped balance this edition, consider the battle cannon to be one of the best weapons in the game. With a decent BS and the potential to re-roll that D6 shots, I can see why

I've been stressing about the battle cannon for a couple of weeks now since it's base numbers were announced. Have the full info now and am still mildly stressed... but I think it might be just that the battle cannon has changed from an anti-infantry weapon to an anti-tank weapon and my brain is somewhat slow to adapt.

Really, that's kinda the thing I've been running into over and over and over. This is the first time in 4 editions that things have changed so much that it's hard to theoryhammer without playing actual games (I know, right?!?!). For that alone... and eliminating 7th edition... I'm already grateful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So is anyone else concerned with (or happy for, we being Guard) the HeavyFlamer/HeavyFlamer Chimera? Which is available in virtually unlimited slots for 109 points? 2d6 autohits after moving 12" with range 8"... yeah, S5 is anti-infantry only but skipping the to-hit seems absurdly good.

I'm super new to things (like all of us) so please don't jump me if that's not viable. You can move 12" and go "LOL, heavy flamers don't have to take the -1 to hit penalty", right?

Blightstar wrote:
Have you guys noticed how insane Ratlings are? 7pts a pop, sniper rifles are very good weapon especially on such cheap platform, they get extra cover save (so they have 4+ in cover), they deploy anywhere over 18" from enemies and they get to move extra 6" when they shoot so they basically have 12" movement as long as they can shoot something.

But few things people dont understand about these little dudes:
-You go first if you deploy first and this DOESNT count in those who "infiltrate". Your army has 5 other units, 8 units of ratlings and 12 units of scions and primes in deepstrike? You do 5 of them and then opponent deploys his army. And then ratlings deploy and you go first with massive alpha. Damn.
-This ability and their cheap cost makes them very good "screens" against deepstriking and outflanking units.
-And the most insane part (which again makes them better screens): they get to move when they shoot. Even in overwatch. Holy poop!

Oh and they have T2, ld5 and sv6+ so they die to stiff breeze and then run away. But who cares they cost 70pts there is plenty more where those came from!

Very good point to bring up the deployment. I was thinking about this yesterday. Having so many units deep strike, there's a very real chance that even in an army with this many units, we'll still get to take the first turn very often.

Ratling firepower point by point is quite good too. They beat HWS with mortars or heavy bolters point by point against Rhinos, only barely lose to mortars and hbs vs MEQ but beat LC/MS/AC teams by a landslide. They will shine against something like a Land Raider.

Funnily enough, they're even less survivable than HWS teams, but they do come with those nice special rules that you mentioned, and sniping weak characters might have more value than I think right now.

I'm not 100% sold on the unit, considering a unit of 10 buys an Eversor Assassin too for the same slot. Eversors, especially with a re-roll for charge distance used sometimes, have a very high chance of assaulting and finishing off/tying up anything that the Plasma Scions couldn't completely take out on the alpha strike, and the combined counter-assault potential against some Ork hordes, Tyranids (that assault with some stuff turn one and everything else turn two) is something I'd like to have.

 Therion wrote:
Very good point to bring up the deployment. I was thinking about this yesterday. Having so many units deep strike, there's a very real chance that even in an army with this many units, we'll still get to take the first turn very often.

Placing a unit in deep strike still counts as deploying a unit for the purposes of alternating deployment. However, it could be really nice saying "I place this unit in a high-altitude transport" for the first six choices, then get to deploy your ground forces to counter whatever they put down.

Ivan wrote:

the criticism directed at the Russ, that the guys at Frontline gaming, who helped balance this edition, consider the battle cannon to be one of the best weapons in the game. With a decent BS and the potential to re-roll that D6 shots, I can see why

I've been stressing about the battle cannon for a couple of weeks now since it's base numbers were announced. Have the full info now and am still mildly stressed... but I think it might be just that the battle cannon has changed from an anti-infantry weapon to an anti-tank weapon and my brain is somewhat slow to adapt.

Really, that's kinda the thing I've been running into over and over and over. This is the first time in 4 editions that things have changed so much that it's hard to theoryhammer without playing actual games (I know, right?!?!). For that alone... and eliminating 7th edition... I'm already grateful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So is anyone else concerned with (or happy for, we being Guard) the HeavyFlamer/HeavyFlamer Chimera? Which is available in virtually unlimited slots for 109 points? 2d6 autohits after moving 12" with range 8"... yeah, S5 is anti-infantry only but skipping the to-hit seems absurdly good.

I'm super new to things (like all of us) so please don't jump me if that's not viable. You can move 12" and go "LOL, heavy flamers don't have to take the -1 to hit penalty", right?

Yeah, no. There's nothing wrong with an MBT's main cannon becoming an anti-tank weapon. There's everything wrong with it costing as much as it does, and hitting so few times per turn for the price. The Leman Russ, frankly, given the alternatives for the same jobs, sucks.

But there's a lot more that the points team got horribly wrong than just the Leman Russ. Take a look at the Stompa, and it's points cost, and how miserably easy it is to kill for the price, and how absurdly little firepower it provides for the price. There's units literally five or six times more points efficient than it, both in offense and defense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Therion wrote:
Very good point to bring up the deployment. I was thinking about this yesterday. Having so many units deep strike, there's a very real chance that even in an army with this many units, we'll still get to take the first turn very often.

Placing a unit in deep strike still counts as deploying a unit for the purposes of alternating deployment. However, it could be really nice saying "I place this unit in a high-altitude transport" for the first six choices, then get to deploy your ground forces to counter whatever they put down.

I really couldn't find anything that says it does. It says you don't have to deploy them. You 'set them up' in some teleport chamber or high altitude transport or whatever. There's a different fluff background thing for every unit. How on earth does that imply that you declare one by one that you don't deploy them, and that the declaration counts as a deployment? If it did, I guess Termagants in reserve for Tervigons, and Daemons waiting to be summoned, counted as deployments too? If you did find that rule though, thanks, and link the reference here.

Well tanks have got a ton more wounds than other units, so they are more survivable, plus they have the armor save. They are better and more balanced than last edition, but the problem really is that the weapons don't pack as much a punch as something like a ton of infantry (that Guard can throw out) would.

I do think that any army going against 6 or 7 LR tanks would have a pretty tough time against them.

Let me just clarify one thing: if a tank moves, and there's a heavy weapon on its turret, that weapon can still fire normally without any BS penalty? Or am I wrong?

 deltaKshatriya wrote:
Well tanks have got a ton more wounds than other units, so they are more survivable, plus they have the armor save. They are better and more balanced than last edition, but the problem really is that the weapons don't pack as much a punch as something like a ton of infantry (that Guard can throw out) would.

I do think that any army going against 6 or 7 LR tanks would have a pretty tough time against them.

Let me just clarify one thing: if a tank moves, and there's a heavy weapon on its turret, that weapon can still fire normally without any BS penalty? Or am I wrong?

If you have a tank that has 40 wounds, and costs 1000 points, and you have an infantry model, that costs 2 points with a 4+ invulnerable save, which one is more survivable? By the way, this isn't a trick question. You're just pretty out to lunch in what we're actually discussing here.

 Therion wrote:

 deltaKshatriya wrote:
Well tanks have got a ton more wounds than other units, so they are more survivable, plus they have the armor save. They are better and more balanced than last edition, but the problem really is that the weapons don't pack as much a punch as something like a ton of infantry (that Guard can throw out) would.

I do think that any army going against 6 or 7 LR tanks would have a pretty tough time against them.

Let me just clarify one thing: if a tank moves, and there's a heavy weapon on its turret, that weapon can still fire normally without any BS penalty? Or am I wrong?

If you have a tank that has 40 wounds, and costs 1000 points, and you have an infantry model, that costs 2 points with a 4+ invulnerable save, which one is more survivable? By the way, this isn't a trick question. You're just pretty out to lunch in what we're actually discussing here.

Fair enough, I haven't I haven't been following very closely. I tried. :(

EDIT: if it's points cost we are debating, tbh, tanks have never afaik been cheap and I really doubt that's going to change in any updates. I hope they bring down the cost a bit, or at least add more punch to the tank or something.

 Therion wrote:
I really couldn't find anything that says it does. It says you don't have to deploy them. You 'set them up' in some teleport chamber or high altitude transport or whatever.

Aerial Drop: During deployment, you can set up this unit in a high-altitude transport, ready to deploy via grav-chute, instead of placing it on the battlefield.

So setting up the transport is instead of placing on the battlefield, which implies that it would be a choice you had to make at the point in the deployment process that you would place it on the board. I can see there being some confusion, and am willing to admit fault, but that really is how I would read the rule. Other units, for example the drop pod, also use the "instead of" wording. However, a unit like Ratlings specifically states that they wait until both sides are deployed, taking them out of the normal deployment sequence.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Therion wrote:
I really couldn't find anything that says it does. It says you don't have to deploy them. You 'set them up' in some teleport chamber or high altitude transport or whatever.

Aerial Drop: During deployment, you can set up this unit in a high-altitude transport, ready to deploy via grav-chute, instead of placing it on the battlefield.

So setting up the transport is instead of placing on the battlefield, which implies that it would be a choice you had to make at the point in the deployment process that you would place it on the board. I can see there being some confusion, and am willing to admit fault, but that really is how I would read the rule. Other units, for example the drop pod, also use the "instead of" wording. However, a unit like Ratlings specifically states that they wait until both sides are deployed, taking them out of the normal deployment sequence.

If I say, instead of deploying, I'm not going to deploy, does that to you count as deployment?

So, instead of eating ice cream, me eating chips, counts as eating ice cream?

Similarly as you, I'll admit if I'm wrong, but currently I can't see your interpretation being the actual rule.

 Therion wrote:
If I say, instead of deployment, I'm not going to deploy, does that to you count as deployment?

So, instead of eating ice cream, me eating chips, counts as eating ice cream?

Well it seems enough of a disagreement to warrant wider discussion. To YMDC with this!

Ivan wrote:
So is anyone else concerned with (or happy for, we being Guard) the HeavyFlamer/HeavyFlamer Chimera? Which is available in virtually unlimited slots for 109 points? 2d6 autohits after moving 12" with range 8"... yeah, S5 is anti-infantry only but skipping the to-hit seems absurdly good.

I'm super new to things (like all of us) so please don't jump me if that's not viable. You can move 12" and go "LOL, heavy flamers don't have to take the -1 to hit penalty", right?

Don't forget to toss a storm bolter on for 2 points to get another 4 shots

You also can overwatch with it. You can also assault weaker infantry units with it and tie them up for a round while they flee combat (or stay locked in while a vehicle they likely cannot hurt). Power fists are a thing now and can be a quick end to that plan, just a fair warning. It does work great on units of snipers.

Ivan wrote:

So is anyone else concerned with (or happy for, we being Guard) the HeavyFlamer/HeavyFlamer Chimera? Which is available in virtually unlimited slots for 109 points? 2d6 autohits after moving 12" with range 8"... yeah, S5 is anti-infantry only but skipping the to-hit seems absurdly good.

I'm super new to things (like all of us) so please don't jump me if that's not viable. You can move 12" and go "LOL, heavy flamers don't have to take the -1 to hit penalty", right?

I was pondering the Chimera yesterday, and I agree that dual Heavy Flamer looks like the best option. Multilaser is a joke this edition at 10 points, I have no idea how it was decided that it costs more than a Heaavy Bolter at 8. Chimeras used to be half-decent fire support platforms, but with the increased cost, and the drop in heavy weapon squad points cost, and the loss of Command Vehicle and firing points, you really have to leverage its transport ability. That means moving, and that means its shooting sucks unless you're taking Heavy Flamers. With vehicle overwatch, those flamers are even better. Not much makes assault less appealing than 7 S5, ap1 hits against you before you get to swing.

The downside is that Fast Attack choices are not the greatest for the Guard, and the HF Chimera pretty much overlaps with the best Sentinel and Hellhound variants. That being said, with increased speed of assaulters and the increased utility of the Heavy Flamer, I'm not sure this is a bad thing.

Ivan wrote:

the criticism directed at the Russ, that the guys at Frontline gaming, who helped balance this edition, consider the battle cannon to be one of the best weapons in the game. With a decent BS and the potential to re-roll that D6 shots, I can see why

I've been stressing about the battle cannon for a couple of weeks now since it's base numbers were announced. Have the full info now and am still mildly stressed... but I think it might be just that the battle cannon has changed from an anti-infantry weapon to an anti-tank weapon and my brain is somewhat slow to adapt.

Really, that's kinda the thing I've been running into over and over and over. This is the first time in 4 editions that things have changed so much that it's hard to theoryhammer without playing actual games (I know, right?!?!). For that alone... and eliminating 7th edition... I'm already grateful.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So is anyone else concerned with (or happy for, we being Guard) the HeavyFlamer/HeavyFlamer Chimera? Which is available in virtually unlimited slots for 109 points? 2d6 autohits after moving 12" with range 8"... yeah, S5 is anti-infantry only but skipping the to-hit seems absurdly good.

I'm super new to things (like all of us) so please don't jump me if that's not viable. You can move 12" and go "LOL, heavy flamers don't have to take the -1 to hit penalty", right?

Totally agree about the Battle Cannon, it's role has completely changed. I would say it is now primarily an anti vehicle/MC weapon which retains a bit of usability against infantry/hordes.

I would really like to talk about the Chimera too, I think it has a lot of potential now. Like you said, 2 Heavy Flamers seems to be the only way to run it. I can't see any reason to run it with either ML or HB as it's useless as a bunker (fine by me) and hitting on 5s after moving is horrible, I wouldn't want to pay any points period for a gun that hits on 5s. 2 HFs though seems pretty savage when combined with the unit inside. You provide them with great assault protection on a very durable platform and can clear objectives for the guys inside. Keep your squad near it and deter enemy charges with a brutal overwatch. Ignore all BS modifiers, such as damage, overwatch and movement.

12 transport slots is also key, you can carry a squad as well as a supporting officer or two.

really couldn't find anything that says it does. It says you don't have to deploy them. You 'set them up' in some teleport chamber or high altitude transport or whatever. There's a different fluff background thing for every unit. How on earth does that imply that you declare one by one that you don't deploy them, and that the declaration counts as a deployment? If it did, I guess Termagants in reserve for Tervigons, and Daemons waiting to be summoned, counted as deployments too? If you did find that rule though, thanks, and link the reference here.

The operative wording is "set up". During deployment, players alternate setting up units (they don't 'deploy' them, they set them up. It's just the deployment phase) until they're finished and the first player to run out of units goes first.
All of the reinforcement style deployments are worded as "you may set up a unit in X instead of on the battlefield". It still counts as a set up for the purposes of alternating what units go where.
The things that get around it are units in transports and, as mentioned, infiltrating.

Do you think there'd be any value in having an IG army led by Saint Celestine?

Remember that whoever chooses to take the first turn, the other one can still seize on a 6+, and you can use a command point to re-roll that dice ("You can re-roll any single dice." "You can spend Command Points to use a stratagem before or during a battle.")

Can you re-roll the re-roll too? I'm not sure that the clause "remember that a re-rolled dice can't be re-rolled" exists in 8th. If you got 12 command points, if no such clause exists, you'll just re-roll until you get to seize the initiative.

 Therion wrote:
Can you re-roll the re-roll too? I'm not sure that the clause "remember that a re-rolled dice can't be re-rolled" exists in 8th.

Nope. Top left section of page 178: "You can never re-roll a dice more than once..."

 Trickstick wrote:

 Therion wrote:
Can you re-roll the re-roll too? I'm not sure that the clause "remember that a re-rolled dice can't be re-rolled" exists in 8th.

Nope. Top left section of page 178: "You can never re-roll a dice more than once..."

Allright. Well, that's good.

As far as the other issue of 'set up' being the same as deployment is concerned, that's weird, but it's another type of huge advantage for the deep strike heavy army. That means, if you for example have 6 units of Scions and 3 Tempestor Primes, that you can just tell your opponents to set up 9 units in a row (10 if they started deploying), because you're declaring one by one that they go into the dropship. You'll get to see most of your opponent's deployment before you have to put anything to the table.

It would also mean that Astra Militarum armies will never get to choose to go first, but will get to see most of the enemy's deployment before setting up any units, and will still get to start 1/3 of the games due to re-rolling the seize dice once. It's a good deal, and if you know you're probably not going to finish 'setting up' first, you might as well get the Brigade detachment for maximum command points and tons of MSU like Ratlings, Mortar HWS, Eversors, because of their points efficiency.

 Therion wrote:
That means, if you for example have 6 units of Scions and 3 Tempestor Primes, that you can just tell your opponents to set up 9 units in a row (10 if they started deploying), because you're declaring one by one that they go into the dropship. You'll get to see most of your opponent's deployment before you have to put anything to the table.

I'd be much more tempted to screw with them by mixing it up a bit. Put down some fast/sacrificial units so that they base their plans around a false idea of what you are going to do, then do the deepstrikers while they set up, then use your main force to do something that they didn't expect at all. That's just a basic example, the mind games you can get into with alternating deployment are huge.

You can also do interesting things with a combination of deep-strike and Flying Circus list. Units that are in a transport still count as "on the board", even if that transport is a Valkyrie that might as well be giving them a deep strike anyway.

So you can take some infantry, enough Valkyries to put them in, and a bunch of deep-striking Scions. You'd practically be able to null-deploy, with only the Valkyries (in supersonic mode, for that -1 to hit them) and their passengers starting on the table.

Though due to how expensive Valkyries are, you'd end up with quite a low model count for a Guard army. You also wouldn't want to deploy like that against a very shooty army, those poor Valkyries would get swatted out of the sky with nothing else to distract the enemy from them. Of course, you could simply elect to deploy the passengers on foot in that situation and only use the Valkyries as gunships. The "ghetto null deploy" would be saved for choppy armies in order to avoid first-turn charging, because they can't charge the flyers and a choppy army likely doesn't have enough dakka to alpha-strike them.

Here's another take on how to get around the 'Fast Attack tax' and still get a lot of Command Points. 2 Battallions. 9 Command Points.

Exactly half the units go on the table, and half can 'set up' in the dropship. Yarrick was lost, but there's more HWS in there now, and a Psyker to deny and to do some other stuff. He'll kill a few guys here and there. Also, now all of the Scions get re-rolls, and super-charged their firepower is the highest so they benefit from them the most. Power Maul is a decent weapon too for 4 points, pushing the Prime to S5 where it wounds Orks and Marines on 3+, at -1 AP.

BATTALLION Detachment
HQ
-Tempestor Prime, Tempestus Command Rod, Power Maul
-Tempestor Prime, Tempestus Command Rod, Power Maul
ELITES
-Eversor Assassin
-Eversor Assassin
TROOPS
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
Dedicated Transports
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
HEAVY SUPPORT
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 2 Mortars, Lascannon
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Mortars
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Mortars
BATTALLION Detachment:
HQ
-Tempestor Prime, Tempestus Command Rod, Power Maul
-Primaris Psyker
ELITES
-Eversor Assassin
-Eversor Assassin
TROOPS
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
-10 Tempestus Scions, 4 Plasma Guns, 5 Hot-Shot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol
Dedicated Transports
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
-Taurox Prime, Taurox Gatling Cannon, 2 Hot-Shot Volley Guns, Storm Bolter
HEAVY SUPPORT
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 2 Mortars, Lascannon
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Mortars
-Heavy Weapons Squad, 3 Mortars

Total Points: 2000
Total Models: 80
Total Wounds: 196

This army will smash faces in.

 vipoid wrote:
Do you think there'd be any value in having an IG army led by Saint Celestine?

She does give all Astra M units within 6" a 6+ invuln - hits hard and is hard to kill.

She can even go after flyers now and chop them into bits. Plus she has her own free Act of Faith - not sure if she can use that one on herself ( personally I think she can). If so even on her own she can AOF 12" , move 12" in move phase and then charge 2D6.

 Mr Morden wrote:

She does give all Astra Milletarium units within 6" a 6+ invuln - hits hard and is hard to kill.

She can even go after flyers now and chop them into bits. Plus she has her own free Act of Faith - not sure fi she can use that one on herself. If so even on her won she can AOF 12" , move 12" in move phase and charge 2D6.

I believe she can use the Act of Faith on herself, as she meets the criteria and the rulebook states that models are always considered to be within range of themselves.

Out of interest, would you take her bodyguard as well or just her?

After having played a game of 8th I caution against too many deep striking units. Remember it is 9 inches from ANY enemy unit. It will be very very easy to box you out of your effective range for most targets you want to get with the plasma guns. Three independent models can completely block deep strike across the short side of the board.

However if you are still thinking in a 7th edition list building mentality it would still work.

Remember hordes are going to be a thing. Tyranids will literally just space out the 100+ Gants/Gaunts they can get . What is your plasma deep strike going to do now?

You need to build a take all comers list that can put out a pure volume of shots on top of dealing with elite units. Also wounding on threes with most things is a huge shift in damage output compared to what I am used to.

Yeah, as fun as it is to theorize about amusing gimmicks, I'm definitely expecting practical lists to center around large infantry core that is responsible for putting out the necessary volume of fire, supported by a small handful of highly specialized vehicles. Particularly vehicles that saw little or no cost increase between editions, such as the Hellhound, Manticore, and Basilisk.

Back-line vehicles like Manticores and Basilisks also benefit from how Techpriest Enginseers have been changed. They now have a 6" bubble where they can automatically repair a vehicle every turn. The Engineseer can only repair one vehicle at a time, but it's a guaranteed 1d3 repair ever turn. Unlike a medic, he doesn't have to roll for it: he's going to restore at least 1 wound.

So where does the humble Leeman Russ fall into that?

Any thoughts on this list:

Batallion I
Company Commander
Company Commander
Commissar
Infantry squad w/ Lascannon, Plasmagun and Plasma Pistol
Infantry squad w/ Lascannon, Plasmagun and Plasma Pistol
Infantry squad w/ Lascannon, Plasmagun and Plasma Pistol
HWS w/ 3 Lascannons

Batallion II
Company Commander
Company Commander
Commissar

Infantry Squad w/ Autocannon, Plasmagun and Plasma Pistol
Infantry Squad w/ Autocannon, Plasmagun and Plasma Pistol
Infantry Squad w/ Autocannon, Plasmagun and Plasma Pistol
HWS w/ 3 Missile Launchers

Batallion III
Company Commander
Company Commander
Commissar
Infantry Squad w/ Autocannon and Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad w/ Autocannon and Grenade Launcher
Infantry Squad w/ Autocannon and Grenade Launcher
HWS w/ 3 Autocannons

Batallion IV
Company Commander
Tempestor Prime w/ Tempestor Command Rod, Power Sword
Commissar
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad w/ 4 Plasmaguns
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad w/ 4 Plasmaguns
Infantry Squad w/ Heavy Bolter, Flamer and Plasma Pistol
Infantry Squad w/ Heavy Bolter and Flamer
Infantry Squad w/ Heavy Bolter and Flamer

1500

The decrease in basic squad costs has me making some really interesting decisions. Heavy/special weapon upgrades used to be nearly automatic for me, but now, it doesn't take a lot of upgrades to increase a squad's cost by 50%. 3 lasgun squads vs 2+extra weapons is a much more interesting decision than 4 naked squads vs 3 with extra weaponry. Add in that special and heavy weapons are so relatively cheap in dedicated squads, and that lasguns get 4 shots at close range with orders, and 40 point basic infantry squads look pretty interesting.