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 Nazrak wrote:
So platoons have gone, right? Seems a bit of a shame from a fluff standpoint, but as someone who's been wanting to give Guard a crack for ages but never really got round to it because of the high barrier to entry of painting up ANOTHER horde army, I feel like this could be a good jumping-off point. How would you more knowledgeable Guard folks rate a Company Commander, Tank Commander, 3-4 infantry squads and one or two more Russes as a starting point?

Jury is still out on Russes. Opinions are ranging from useless to awesome, citing their poor gun performance against their resilience. I guess they need some play testing to see if they have a good place in lists. Other than that, a Company Commander and some men is never going to go out of style.

Unrelated, but I'm actually looking into using a couple of armoured fist squads in my army to make up 6 troops (2 Scions, 2 Conscripts). They seem cheap objective claimers that are not as bad to sit in transports as veterans are. Any thoughts on 2xflamer chimeras or taurox with a 10 man w/ special inside?

 Nazrak wrote:
So platoons have gone, right? Seems a bit of a shame from a fluff standpoint, but as someone who's been wanting to give Guard a crack for ages but never really got round to it because of the high barrier to entry of painting up ANOTHER horde army, I feel like this could be a good jumping-off point. How would you more knowledgeable Guard folks rate a Company Commander, Tank Commander, 3-4 infantry squads and one or two more Russes as a starting point?

Tanks are looking less impressive when compared to HWS, but I'm still going to use them. I'd say it's a good start, but maybe with another Commander. You might want to shove a couple commissars in there too to keep your LD7 guys on the table. If you have to pick something to drop to make room, I'd say drop the tank commander and maybe a russ for now.

 Nazrak wrote:
So platoons have gone, right? Seems a bit of a shame from a fluff standpoint, but as someone who's been wanting to give Guard a crack for ages but never really got round to it because of the high barrier to entry of painting up ANOTHER horde army, I feel like this could be a good jumping-off point. How would you more knowledgeable Guard folks rate a Company Commander, Tank Commander, 3-4 infantry squads and one or two more Russes as a starting point?

I would strongly recommend getting a commisar or two in there and make your tank commander pask if you are planning on running three russes. I know you said no hordes, but I would strongly recommend looking into a large unit of conscripts, especially since it seems you might be more interested in the vehicle side of things. They will provide the bubble wrap that will keep your units alive.

One of the reasons that blobs are gone now is that orders and auras are super powerful and would be borderline busted on a blob, while at the same time ICs are gone so the need to blob up to maximize buffs are also gone.

 Nazrak wrote:
So platoons have gone, right? Seems a bit of a shame from a fluff standpoint, but as someone who's been wanting to give Guard a crack for ages but never really got round to it because of the high barrier to entry of painting up ANOTHER horde army, I feel like this could be a good jumping-off point. How would you more knowledgeable Guard folks rate a Company Commander, Tank Commander, 3-4 infantry squads and one or two more Russes as a starting point?

No way! ah for goodness sake, so all my platoon command squads are useless now. grr

 Nazrak wrote:
So platoons have gone, right? Seems a bit of a shame from a fluff standpoint, but as someone who's been wanting to give Guard a crack for ages but never really got round to it because of the high barrier to entry of painting up ANOTHER horde army, I feel like this could be a good jumping-off point. How would you more knowledgeable Guard folks rate a Company Commander, Tank Commander, 3-4 infantry squads and one or two more Russes as a starting point?

If you've been reading, just take a bunch of conscripts.

 STG wrote:

No way! ah for goodness sake, so all my platoon command squads are useless now. grr

Command squads still exist, so they can be taken if you want. They're about as configurable as the CCS was before, are 3+ to hit, and hardly "useless", though there may or may not be better choices at this point.

I imagine I'll still run them.

 Leth wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
So platoons have gone, right? Seems a bit of a shame from a fluff standpoint, but as someone who's been wanting to give Guard a crack for ages but never really got round to it because of the high barrier to entry of painting up ANOTHER horde army, I feel like this could be a good jumping-off point. How would you more knowledgeable Guard folks rate a Company Commander, Tank Commander, 3-4 infantry squads and one or two more Russes as a starting point?

I would strongly recommend getting a commisar or two in there and make your tank commander pask if you are planning on running three russes. I know you said no hordes, but I would strongly recommend looking into a large unit of conscripts, especially since it seems you might be more interested in the vehicle side of things. They will provide the bubble wrap that will keep your units alive.

One of the reasons that blobs are gone now is that orders and auras are super powerful and would be borderline busted on a blob, while at the same time ICs are gone so the need to blob up to maximize buffs are also gone.

We need a blob but don't need a blob but do need a bob to blob the blob of the blob's blob.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:

 STG wrote:

No way! ah for goodness sake, so all my platoon command squads are useless now. grr

Command squads still exist, so they can be taken if you want. They're about as configurable as the CCS was before, are 3+ to hit, and hardly "useless", though there may or may not be better choices at this point.

I imagine I'll still run them.

Well they are in the Elite section now, which is pretty overpopulated to begin with.

How do people feel about the power blob at this point? I mean, yeah, I know "blobs" don't exist anymore, but with commissars and LCs hitting on 3+ and 2+ now, I wonder if tossing a few points that way would still be a useful thing to do.

Cheers all. Prob won't take Pask as I've never been a Named Characters guy, but will take that other stuff on board.

As for the platoon command squads being "useless", I'm far from a Guard expert but it seems to me like you can still take them, just as a separate choice, but they just aren't compulsory any more.

 daedalus wrote:
How do people feel about the power blob at this point? I mean, yeah, I know "blobs" don't exist anymore, but with commissars and LCs hitting on 3+ and 2+ now, I wonder if tossing a few points that way would still be a useful thing to do.

I do like the idea of a Lord Commissar with a powerfist. Still hitting on a 3+ and can do some decent damage.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:


Well they are in the Elite section now, which is pretty overpopulated to begin with.

Unless I'm missing something, and I've been deliriously sick lately, so it's possible, I feel like people are worrying too much about that. You can have multiple detachments still right? And HQs and Troops are the limiting factor to how many of the small detachments you can run, right? So instead of taking a big detachment, just take a bunch of small detachments. Since blobs don't exist anymore, you just run each detachment as what each of your former troop choices was, and you have a chunk of elites to support each individual blob.

 daedalus wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:


Well they are in the Elite section now, which is pretty overpopulated to begin with.

Unless I'm missing something, and I've been deliriously sick lately, so it's possible, I feel like people are worrying too much about that. You can have multiple detachments still right? And HQs and Troops are the limiting factor to how many of the small detachments you can run, right? So instead of taking a big detachment, just take a bunch of small detachments. Since blobs don't exist anymore, you just run each detachment as what each of your former troop choices was, and you have a chunk of elites to support each individual blob.

A Brigade for 12 CP allows 8 Elites units. That should be enough for anyone. If you don't want fast attack, you can organise the army into two Battallions for 9 CP. That will allow 12 Elites units. You're right that slots aren't a problem for Elites.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Nazrak wrote:
So platoons have gone, right? Seems a bit of a shame from a fluff standpoint, but as someone who's been wanting to give Guard a crack for ages but never really got round to it because of the high barrier to entry of painting up ANOTHER horde army, I feel like this could be a good jumping-off point. How would you more knowledgeable Guard folks rate a Company Commander, Tank Commander, 3-4 infantry squads and one or two more Russes as a starting point?

Jury is still out on Russes. Opinions are ranging from useless to awesome, citing their poor gun performance against their resilience. I guess they need some play testing to see if they have a good place in lists. Other than that, a Company Commander and some men is never going to go out of style.

Unrelated, but I'm actually looking into using a couple of armoured fist squads in my army to make up 6 troops (2 Scions, 2 Conscripts). They seem cheap objective claimers that are not as bad to sit in transports as veterans are. Any thoughts on 2xflamer chimeras or taurox with a 10 man w/ special inside?

I, for one, have every intention of running a ton of tanks in the 8th edition army, now that they won't be one shot killed as easily. TANKS!

Jokes aside, I'm gonna try a couple of games and then see how it goes. I used to run a heavy armor list in 7th edition too, with 30 or so conscripts, 1 platoon and 1 veterans squad along with a Knight Paladin. The list wasn't terrible. It was really really good against some armies and terrible against others. Now I feel that matches won't be as 1 sided anymore with that sort of a list. Just my 2 cents though, and a random interjection.

With the lose of fire points, and the decoupeling of all components of a platoon, I'm struggling to see a place for command squads. Commissars do the morale work better, and SWS and Veterans are better for fire platforms.

I suppose if you really want to roll four flamer squads, they're still cheap. And in a chimera, they can pop out 3" from the hull, advance 6+d6", and still flame on.

The days of IG armies have multiple command squads is probably over though. There are just far better options to do anything a CS can do.

 Polonius wrote:
With the lose of fire points, and the decoupeling of all components of a platoon, I'm struggling to see a place for command squads.

It seems that Command Squads are pretty much veteran special weapon squads now. I can see a couple of them in a Valkyrie/Taurox/Chimera with melta/plasma and an Officer, jumping out, taking an order and slagging something. Otherwise, I guess using them as medics could be useful. Maybe a medic and mortar, hiding outside of LOS yet within 6" of something could be good.

 Polonius wrote:
With the lose of fire points, and the decoupeling of all components of a platoon, I'm struggling to see a place for command squads. Commissars do the morale work better, and SWS and Veterans are better for fire platforms.

I suppose if you really want to roll four flamer squads, they're still cheap. And in a chimera, they can pop out 3" from the hull, advance 6+d6", and still flame on.

The days of IG armies have multiple command squads is probably over though. There are just far better options to do anything a CS can do.

They are the same price as SWS, with BS 3+ and can take an extra weapon. And you can fit 3 in a Valkyrie instead of just 2 SWS. I think they are the better suicide unit over SWS, personally.

 vipoid wrote:

Blightstar wrote:

-If celestine dies and fails her 2+/dies second time, her Geminae get removed too so no Spirit of Martyr resurrection

That's incorrect. The Geminae only get removed if Celestine rolls a 1 the first time she dies. If she successfully revives and is subsequently killed, the Geminae aren't removed as well.

I stand corrected. Damn that gal is still quite a powerhouse. And you can even do unit with rerollable 2++ if you bring 4 celestines! And get your opponent to punch you! Many opportunities to have.

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

They are the same price as SWS, with BS 3+ and can take an extra weapon. And you can fit 3 in a Valkyrie instead of just 2 SWS. I think they are the better suicide unit over SWS, personally.

Yup. They're good sniper squads, suicide special weapon squads. In pretty much any situation you'd use a SWS I can think of, they're better.

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
With the lose of fire points, and the decoupeling of all components of a platoon, I'm struggling to see a place for command squads. Commissars do the morale work better, and SWS and Veterans are better for fire platforms.

I suppose if you really want to roll four flamer squads, they're still cheap. And in a chimera, they can pop out 3" from the hull, advance 6+d6", and still flame on.

The days of IG armies have multiple command squads is probably over though. There are just far better options to do anything a CS can do.

They are the same price as SWS, with BS 3+ and can take an extra weapon. And you can fit 3 in a Valkyrie instead of just 2 SWS. I think they are the better suicide unit over SWS, personally.

Yeah, I can see that as an application. I didn't have the points in front of me. So, you want 12 specials popping out of a valk, they are the clear choice. Which, ironically, was much of what they did in the last few editions.

 Polonius wrote:

Yeah, I can see that as an application. I didn't have the points in front of me. So, you want 12 specials popping out of a valk, they are the clear choice. Which, ironically, was much of what they did in the last few editions.

I actually converted mine from the valk gunner bodies because that was my main purpose for them (and because those bodies look more like carapace armor). I kind of giggled when I realized that they would still be doing the exact same thing as before, though I was a little miffed that there's no carapace upgrades anymore.

 Nazrak wrote:
So platoons have gone, right? Seems a bit of a shame from a fluff standpoint, but as someone who's been wanting to give Guard a crack for ages but never really got round to it because of the high barrier to entry of painting up ANOTHER horde army, I feel like this could be a good jumping-off point. How would you more knowledgeable Guard folks rate a Company Commander, Tank Commander, 3-4 infantry squads and one or two more Russes as a starting point?

My biggest issue of losing platoons is that now I will have to keep track of separate squads. Also, orders have been diluted in usefulness.

 Leth wrote:
Yep, also with controlling of removing casualties and big units it is much easier to trail a unit back to the aura than it is with MSU. Just put the character behind LOS blocking terrain and you are safe from snipers.

That's not something I would ever rely on, especially not when you are playing tournaments and don't get to place the terrain. 6" is not much, especially if your character has to hand it out to several squads, and just parking him behind LOS blocking terrain, if there even is any in your deployment zone, won't do as soon as you need to move your units (which you will need to either when the enemy assault units come over and are going to pull off multi-assaults or you need to get moving to grab objectives... or the unit shielding your character gets shot to pieces).

So you'll need something in your list that is capable of reliably dealing with Snipers. Snipers that are likely to have a 2+ save in cover if they have camo cloaks and will be more than 24" away. Eradicator Russes seem like a decent option, simply because they completely ignore cover bonuses and are essentially a LRBT with 36" range. Sure, they will only kill 1-3 models a turn if unbuffed, but they sould perform quite well if buffed with aim orders. No other IG units seem to ignore cover as far as I can see now that flamers are simply auto-hit without ignoring cover.

---
Also, taking a look at fortifications, what so you guys think about the Imperial Defense Line? 10 points more expensive than an Aegis line without gun (85 instead of 75) but it not only gives +1 leadership to infantry units (nice for Scions/Stormtroopers) in the terrain piece but also gives +1 cover to both infantry units inside AND behind it from the PoV of the model shooting them, which can essentially mean that most if not all of your infantry units get a cover bonus simply for being somwhere behind the rather massive terrain piece (if you use the defense line kit with the two long stretches of trenches which you can extend with the end pieces). Gun emplacements are crap now anyway (hit on 5+ and models nearby only allow you to shoot something else besides the closest target) and aegis lines only give models within 1" behind it a cover save. And having a huge piece of trenches for your IG units is going to be awesome as heck.

I did a thing. I'll get real points on it later when I get time: Hopefully that will help someone, and I think it's right, but let me know if you spot a typo..

Google Docs AM Spreadsheet

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Yep, also with controlling of removing casualties and big units it is much easier to trail a unit back to the aura than it is with MSU. Just put the character behind LOS blocking terrain and you are safe from snipers.

That's not something I would ever rely on, especially not when you are playing tournaments and don't get to place the terrain. 6" is not much, especially if your character has to hand it out to several squads, and just parking him behind LOS blocking terrain, if there even is any in your deployment zone, won't do as soon as you need to move your units (which you will need to either when the enemy assault units come over and are going to pull off multi-assaults or you need to get moving to grab objectives... or the unit shielding your character gets shot to pieces).

While I agree to some extent if the table does not have multiple LOS blocking pieces on the table then I need to have a conversation with my opponent haha. Even a tournaments they are getting much better about terrain.

 daedalus wrote:
I did a thing. I'll get real points on it later when I get time: Hopefully that will help someone, and I think it's right, but let me know if you spot a typo..

Google Docs AM Spreadsheet

Manticores and Deathstrikes don't come in squadrons.

I have an ultrasmurf buddy who hasn't lost to the IG since 5th ed. He's in for a rude awakening I think. Being the least spoiled marine chapter helps the transition a lot. BA were already used to fighting for everything.

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

Manticores and Deathstrikes don't come in squadrons.

Good catch. I got carried away with the copy-paste.

Martel732 wrote:
I have an ultrasmurf buddy who hasn't lost to the IG since 5th ed. He's in for a rude awakening I think. Being the least spoiled marine chapter helps the transition a lot. BA were already used to fighting for everything.

Put a bunch of Stormtroopers with Plasma on the table and he will be in for a rude awakening .

 Leth wrote:

While I agree to some extent if the table does not have multiple LOS blocking pieces on the table then I need to have a conversation with my opponent haha. Even a tournaments they are getting much better about terrain.

Well, the existence of LOS blocking terrain probably won't be a problem, the question will be whether or not it will be in your deployment zone and in a location where you can actually use it for buff bubble purposes .

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have an ultrasmurf buddy who hasn't lost to the IG since 5th ed. He's in for a rude awakening I think. Being the least spoiled marine chapter helps the transition a lot. BA were already used to fighting for everything.

Put a bunch of Stormtroopers with Plasma on the table and he will be in for a rude awakening .

 Leth wrote:

While I agree to some extent if the table does not have multiple LOS blocking pieces on the table then I need to have a conversation with my opponent haha. Even a tournaments they are getting much better about terrain.

Well, the existence of LOS blocking terrain probably won't be a problem, the question will be whether or not it will be in your deployment zone and in a location where you can actually use it for buff bubble purposes .

Worst case I bring a vehicle right? Haha

I'll likely end up building a mech/Russ army at some point (after I see what FW offers to help the russes), but seeing as I have 3 shiny Sledgehammer BFGs to act as Basilisks, I figure I'll have to run an arty regiment.

Arty being as fragile as it is will be protected by my trusty, elite Mordian Iron Guard.

The tactical question is how much should I spending in support points for each squad? I figure if I have a somewhat even split of Las/Plas squads with other cheaper anti-infantry squads (HB/GL, or Flamer/HB), how many should I bring and how many commissars are reasonable to ensure the bubbles are covered? How many officers should I bring? Are Priests worth it if I give my sergeants, officers, and commissars power weapons? Is it too much toys for too little meat?

At ~1250 I could fit

Company Commander w/ Power Sword and Bolt Pistol
2x Platoon Commander w/Power Sword and Bolt Pistol

Primaris Psyker w/ Force Stave

2x Commissars w/Power Sword and Bolt Pistol

Master of Ordnance

3x Las/Plas Infantry Squad w/Power Sword
3x GL/HB Infantry Squad w/Power Sword

Manticore
3x Wyvern
2x Hydra

Fits comfortably in the Battalion Detachment with ~250pts in Elites, FA, and another HQ I could add.

Is that enough bodies? Too much support? Any thoughts? Is there any merit to a quality over quantity approach in troops?