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Hiding chars out of los is going to be trickier with all the units that will be popping up exactly where intended. That and snipers will make for an interesting dynamic.

Seems reasonable. I would probably drop a wyvern for some mortar HWTs, although that is really just because I want to try them out. That would also need an officer to order them, so not really cheaper.

I'm not sold on the MoO, as his re-roll ability only kicks in if the arty is shooting at targets farther than 36" away. That and the barrage is only one use now...

Back in 5th I used to run power blobs of 20 or 30 Guardsmen, each squad armed with power swords and an attached commissar and priest. I figure if I have an officer for every 3ish squads, and a commissar for every 2-3, I think I can have some nice buffs without going overboard. I'm cautiously optimistic I can make some sort of power blob action happen again. Might have to dust up a stand-in Straken.

Arty does look promising though. The MoO is pretty fething cheap for some early re-rolls. I think he'd be perfect is the min range was a little less or at least his own bubble was a little bigger. I don't know where to hide him though.

The issue I have with HWS in an arty list is that it eats up heavy slots that I'd much rather fill with glorious rockets and vehicle mounted mortars. Plus I'd need to babysit them too with a commissar. I also realize I could try and squeeze the points out of all the support I'd bring to add a defense line. The army would be pretty stationary anyways, might as well get a good save out of it too.

Even though there's a lot I dislike about this edition so far, and the lack of flavour the current indexes have, the internal balance is definitely better. There doesn't seem to be any units in our list that outright awful. Ogryn are still in a weird spot, but they didn't get worse. Rough Riders are actually useable, and Sentinels look pretty good in both variants. I'm scratching my head over the cost of plasma, but the rest of the wargear seems pretty reasonable. Can't complain about 4pts for a power sword. The Iron Guard is most definitely opening up the vaults to issue every sergeant and even aspiring corporals some dope power weaponry.

Almost forgot about the Hellhound. A workable tank in the FA slot is a breath of fresh air.

Counterpoint: The MoO is almost the cost of an infantry squad all on his own. You need to weigh if the possibility of re-rolling ones sometimes and a one-shot barrage are more useful to you than an extra 10 bodies between your arty and the angry people they are busy shelling.

HWS mortars, while competing with your bigger guns, can more consistently get re-rolls from commanders, so might be better than Wyverns in some situations. And since they are out of sight, they are less likely to need a commissar.

Haven't had a chance to run the numbers or playtest this thought.

I like Ogryns/Bullgryns in a flamer Chimera.

Okay, so you got me curious and I ran some numbers.

Two mortar heavy weapons squads and a company commander run you 84pts, and net you ~2 wounds against T4 3+ if you give both HWS the Aim order.

A Wyvern will run you 93pts (since cheapest hull weapon is HB at 8pts) and gets you about 1.75 wounds against T4 3+ including the re-roll to wound.

Wyvern is obviously more durable, but the HWS 's commander can also order other units as necessary, so I think it's down to preference.

I'm recently feeling very positive about the Astropath. 15 points if you downgrade to a las pistol (and why would you care about melee weapons on him). You get your basic psyker functionality AND the ability to have a nearby units ignore cover (automatic) against a selected enemy within 18". That seems pretty useful for clearing out annoying units.

From friends whom played with 8th edition using IG at local shops. It seems orders are great and squads of regulars cheap, but being reduced to only 10 man squads has really hampered them, getting shredded in melee even worse than before, and no way of firing back effectively. Scion literally rule the day with melta and plasma. Flamers are legit good.

 Aesthete wrote:
I'm recently feeling very positive about the Astropath. 15 points if you downgrade to a las pistol (and why would you care about melee weapons on him). You get your basic psyker functionality AND the ability to have a nearby units ignore cover (automatic) against a selected enemy within 18". That seems pretty useful for clearing out annoying units.

I'm a little worried that 18" may be a bit close given the buffs some melee units appear to have received. May just be paranoia on my part.

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

 Aesthete wrote:
I'm recently feeling very positive about the Astropath. 15 points if you downgrade to a las pistol (and why would you care about melee weapons on him). You get your basic psyker functionality AND the ability to have a nearby units ignore cover (automatic) against a selected enemy within 18". That seems pretty useful for clearing out annoying units.

I'm a little worried that 18" may be a bit close given the buffs some melee units appear to have received. May just be paranoia on my part.

It isn't. Expect melee within turn one. Mediocre ain't gonna do crap in 10 man squads. Hate to see Conscripts with less try. Orders are the only thing keeping them together.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
From friends whom played with 8th edition using IG at local shops. It seems orders are great and squads of regulars cheap, but being reduced to only 10 man squads has really hampered them, getting shredded in melee even worse than before, and no way of firing back effectively. Scion literally rule the day with melta and plasma. Flamers are legit good.

I think this does support my idea that Heavy Flamer equipped tanks/sentinels are going to be a useful, perhaps necessary screen for the infantry. Melee is incredibly brutal and without decent melee deterrents Guardsmen are going to get eaten alive. That said, a tank with 2/3 heavy flamers is indeed a good melee deterrent.

Pretty much. With possibilty of melee even during turn 1, expect a lot of dead guardsmen and wiped squads before you can move an inch. While you will be deploying more, the lost blob squads has really hit guard hard. Maybe conscripts can work after all, but from how quick a 10 man squad can go down with just a few basic tyranids un-upgraded..... ever see Starship Troopers, the first battle scene. Pretty much that.

Thinking about the loss of blob squads, and I'm not sure it matters right now. When blobs were good, they were good because a single Commissar could keep the whole show running, and you could have multiple power weapons protected by a lot of bodies. They also helped a lot in kill point missions.

Let's look at a similar formation

Infantry Squad, Flamer, Power Weapon, Plasma Pistol = 56 points
3 of these is 168
Lord Commissar with Power Fist and Plasma Pistol is 65

All total, you've got a group that costs 233. You can set up the three squads so it's very difficult to charge one squad without charging the other squads. This triggers serious Overwatch shots. It also brings more squads into combat to lend their swings. Heroic Intervention brings the Commissar in, if desired. So you can bring 3 squad's worth of combat power into play, same as the old powerblob.

The downside is that you can't order all of the squads at once. The upside is that each squad has to be individually targeted, so it's harder to wipe the group out. More units allows more flexibility with how you engage, as well. Compared to old powerblobs, you get a lot fewer attacks, but you do get to fire those plasma pistols in close combat so squads that multicharge your infantry squads eat some pretty solid overwatch, and also have to worry about a handful of plasma pistols dropping some models once its your turn again. The big change compared to old powerblobs, though, is that you can get all your lasguns pouring into an enemy squad before you charge. That helps make up for the lack of bonus attacks for charging by quite a bit.

The thing is, I'm really not sure if this group of 3 Infantry Squads is any better than a single squad of 50 Conscripts (you can forgo the upgrades and get 4 individual Infantry Squads that definitely have better shooting and close combat power than the Conscripts). It's about the same points and generates about the same level of hits in close combat, although a good chuck of those are power weapons with the Infantry Squads. The addition of Plasma Pistols adds more close combat potency. The Conscripts are clearly tougher, but have a huge footprint, so you might not be able to bring it all into play.

Now, these are not close combat squads. They are squads that are capable of close combat, and can use that ability when the situation calls for it. The current morale rules are pretty forgiving of Infantry Squads in combat, and I think that if you used to like the old powerblobs in previous editions, you can use similar groups of models to perform similar tactical roles.

Biophysical wrote:

This matters because of how Battle Shock works. Every extra wound you do during the turn has a good chance of translating to a wound in the morale phase. You do open yourself up to return wounds and your own Battle Shock, so the decision will depend on your target and the presence of supporting characters.

This is worth raising again, expect charging Guardsmen to be a much more prevalent occurrence and not just because they can now. When a unit reaches a certain threshold of casualties taken that turn then, barring any character buffs, every additional wound inflicted effectively doubles. A marine tactical squad with a Ld8 Sergeant that has sustained 5, 6 or even 7 casualties in the shooting phase will already be losing additional models without a very good leadership roll. Even if the IG inflict only a single casualty in the combat phase the squad wipe of the marines is all but assured.

Sorry if this has been stated before, but I have a question for you guard players.

How spammable are snipers in this edition for you guys? Are they spread across multiple units or are they dedicated sniper teams that are fielded?

 Klowny wrote:
Sorry if this has been stated before, but I have a question for you guard players.

How spammable are snipers in this edition for you guys? Are they spread across multiple units or are they dedicated sniper teams that are fielded?

Ratlings, the dedicated sniper unit of choice, come in a squad of 5 base for 35pts. Otherwise Veterans and SWS can take them, Ratlings camo-cloaks only make them 4+ in cover due to their 6+ armour save, so they're not actually more survivable than other guardsmen in cover. They're damn well cheap enough that it's not so much of an issue though.

The only downside is that unless you want to put sniper rifles in the hands of the average Infantry Squad then your sniper units are going to be vying for a spot in the Elites section that has a lot of decent options competing for it.

 Klowny wrote:
Sorry if this has been stated before, but I have a question for you guard players.

How spammable are snipers in this edition for you guys? Are they spread across multiple units or are they dedicated sniper teams that are fielded?

I'm really pleased that finally you can make somewhat decent non-ratling sniper squads. A command squad is perfect for this, as the guys have BS 3+ and can all have sniper rifles. And it is just four guys, so you can MSU them on rooftops, just like you'd imagine real snipers operating.

Where are people getting this competing slot idea from? We literally have a dedicated elite detachment. Slot restriction is no longer a problem. I am personally looking at sniper cmd squads.

Two squads of command snipers and a full unit of ratlings have approximately the same point cost and durability vs bolters when in cover. The command squads get 2 fewer shots, but can take orders. Ratlings get their own set of tricks though.

Either way you want to go is probably pretty similar in terms of efficiency, so go with what makes sense for your army.

Is it correct that a hwt with a heavy bolter is 12 pts?

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Ratlings get their own set of tricks though.

The ability to move 6" after firing overwatch seems really amusing to me. It almost makes them immune to being charged, unless the enemy gets really close.

 koooaei wrote:
Is it correct that a hwt with a heavy bolter is 12 pts?

Yep. Each hwt also has a lasgun and frag grenades.

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Is it correct that a hwt with a heavy bolter is 12 pts?

Yep. Each hwt also has a lasgun and frag grenades.

What's the point of fielding regular guardsmen than? Spam hwt as far as an eye can see.

 koooaei wrote:
What's the point of fielding regular guardsmen than? Spam hwt as far as an eye can see.

They are heavy support.

You're not forced to run cads with troops. You can easilly field only heavy support ones. That's definitely not a problem - especially for smaller games.

Can still take 18 of them though with a brigade and two spearheads.

I like the way that 54 lascannon teams, 3 commanders, 3 commissars and 174 conscripts would now probably make a fairly competitive 2000pts list...

 koooaei wrote:

What's the point of fielding regular guardsmen than? Spam hwt as far as an eye can see.

Honestly? Let's find out. Big thing for basic infantry is FRFSRF.

At 24" a basic infantry squad with no upgrades under orders puts out 18 lasgun shots. Vs T4 3+ that's one dead marine. At 12" they put out 37 lasgun shots. Vs T4 3+ that's 2.1 dead marines. Lose no effectiveness when moving.

A full squad of HB hwts put out 9 HB and 3 lasgun shots at 24" dealing 1.67 wounds to marines. At 12" they do 1.83 wounds to marines. If you use the aim order on the hwts, then they also go up to 2.1 dead marines at 12" but they still lose considerable effectiveness when moving.

So HWTs outshoot or equal basic guard at all ranges but are less mobile.

How about survivability? 10 T3 wounds vs 6 T3 wounds gives advantage to basic guard squad. Add to that the fact that HWTs are vulnerable to multi-damage shots while basic guard are not makes standard infantry significantly more survivable.

Melee? We honestly don't want to be here, and conscripts are probably better bubble wrap, but let's run the numbers.
Infantry squad gets 12 attacks (9 +2 for sarge +1 for chainsword). HWT gets a flat 6. S3 at WS 4+ isn't impressive at all, but double the damage for infantry squads (0.66 wounds on marines vs 0.33 wounds on marines).

How about morale? Regular infantry get Ld 7 with sarge, and so need to lose 2 wounds to be at risk of battleshock. Even if you roll poorly after taking 2 wounds, you only lose 4pts when a guard runs off. HWTs are Ld 6 but still need to take 2 wounds as well before they are at risk of battleshock, but if they roll poorly you're out 12pts instead of 4. Both of these units can be buffed by commissars, though, so hopefully not a major concern.


So it looks like basic infantry are a fair bit tougher, a bit harder hitting in melee, and more mobile since they can move and shoot without penalty. They trade this for poorer damage at range and being 4pts more expensive. From this I can see the appeal of a front line of regular infantry, since they will likely be close enough the extra damage at range doesn't matter and can tank for other units a bit better.

The question is now do regular infantry do this better than conscripts?

Regular infantry is only dealing better damage at 12'. While hwt can be effective from 36'. It's a significant thing to consider as windrider bike spam is still a thing and you can now easilly meet armies consisting of heavy weapons only.

10 regular guardsmen/women are about the same price as 13 conscripts, so let's compare their effectiveness.

Both with FRFSRF.
At 24" a basic infantry squad with no upgrades under orders puts out 18 lasgun shots. Vs T4 3+ that's one dead marine. At 12" they put out 37 lasgun shots. Vs T4 3+ that's 2.1 dead marines.

13 conscripts put out 26 lasgun shots at 24" dealing just under 1 wounds to marines and 52 shots at 12" which deal 1.9 wounds to marines.

Veeeeeery slight advantage to regular infantry.

In terms of survivability, conscripts get an extra 3 wounds on regular infantry, so clear advantage there.

Melee? 12 attacks hitting on 4+ vs 13 attacks hitting on 5+ puts regular infantry ahead with 0.66 wounds on marines vs the conscripts' 0.48 wounds. Not great for either, to be fair.

Morale? Ld 7 for regular guard vs Ld 4 for conscripts means that you can lose up to 3 additional conscripts even after only a single wound, making it imperative that you keep them in line with commissars or something similar, while regular infantry are somewhat less fragile when away from the commissar's watchful eyes.

Verdict? Conscripts are more survivable, but have somewhat less damage output both at range and in melee and need closer babysitting than regular guard. If you can reasonably ensure that your buff characters won't be sniped, conscripts are probably the better unit for tanking damage and early charges. But if you lose those key commissars, they will crumble much faster than regular guard squads. So whether or not there is a place for the standard guard squad really depends on the rest of your list.