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2017/06/06 11:36:22
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Leth wrote: Where are people getting this competing slot idea from? We literally have a dedicated elite detachment. Slot restriction is no longer a problem. I am personally looking at sniper cmd squads.
Very much this. Guard/AM also have so many cheap troop options that They can still take the Elites detachment and still have plenty of Command Points.
A really interesting side effect of detachments is that you really only take Troops if you want to. Our Troops are so competitively priced (and nicely buffable) that one actually wants to take them. I'm seriously thinking 40 point infantry squads are a thing I want to run.
2017/06/06 13:10:55
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Therion wrote: We have the best troops unit in the entire game, the Tempestus Scions. We also have access to the best elites slot assault unit in the game, the best dedicated transport in the game, and very, very points efficient heavy weaponry from the heavy support (HWT with mortar 9 points total). Our HQ has more synergy with units than almost any other army (Only Tyranids really complete) making them very worthwhile. Our guys are the second most resistant to morale in the entire game (Tyranids again the only army more resistant to morale). Our Fast Attack isn't top tier, but it's far from garbage. Both Hellhounds and Scout Sentinels are decent enough to be used every now and then. We have by far the largest amount of competitive options available to us than anyone else, giving us flexibility.
Yeah, I think we have it pretty good. In fact, the only way from here is down. Astra Militarum is the best army in the game today. It was a long break between the 'Leafblower' days and now, but the humans got to the top again.
From what I hear Orks and Tyranids are at the top. Luckily the imperial guard have the best counters to them.....lots and lots of bullets!!! I really want to caution people to be careful with the all in on scions. That is the 7th edition mindset taking over.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/06 13:30:59
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Therion wrote: We have the best troops unit in the entire game, the Tempestus Scions. We also have access to the best elites slot assault unit in the game, the best dedicated transport in the game, and very, very points efficient heavy weaponry from the heavy support (HWT with mortar 9 points total). Our HQ has more synergy with units than almost any other army (Only Tyranids really complete) making them very worthwhile. Our guys are the second most resistant to morale in the entire game (Tyranids again the only army more resistant to morale). Our Fast Attack isn't top tier, but it's far from garbage. Both Hellhounds and Scout Sentinels are decent enough to be used every now and then. We have by far the largest amount of competitive options available to us than anyone else, giving us flexibility.
Yeah, I think we have it pretty good. In fact, the only way from here is down. Astra Militarum is the best army in the game today. It was a long break between the 'Leafblower' days and now, but the humans got to the top again.
From what I hear Orks and Tyranids are at the top. Luckily the imperial guard have the best counters to them.....lots and lots of bullets!!! I really want to caution people to be careful with the all in on scions. That is the 7th edition mindset taking over.
Yeah, they're right behind us, because we have all the tools anyone would ever need to beat them. I'm very confident I can utterly annihilate those armies with my list that's been posted in this thread. My list isn't all in on the Scions. I'll be beating them in assault too. On average rolls, my alpha strike, shooting, fighting and morale combined, wastes over 150 Orks in one turn. "Yeah, that just happened."
I am confused as to what situation would have all of that happen in the same turn? Does your opponent just sit there? That might be the most you could wipe in a turn true but it is not likely to get even close to that. Following that math a mob of 30 orks will wipe out 20 guardsman a turn. Also you know that tyranids and orks have pretty reliable first turn charges right?
I am not saying it is a bad list at all, I guess I am just trying to temper your expectations. Get a few games in before making declarations. I am still wrapping my head around how differently things play now.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/06 13:47:31
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Therion wrote: We have the best troops unit in the entire game, the Tempestus Scions. We also have access to the best elites slot assault unit in the game, the best dedicated transport in the game, and very, very points efficient heavy weaponry from the heavy support (HWT with mortar 9 points total). Our HQ has more synergy with units than almost any other army (Only Tyranids really complete) making them very worthwhile. Our guys are the second most resistant to morale in the entire game (Tyranids again the only army more resistant to morale). Our Fast Attack isn't top tier, but it's far from garbage. Both Hellhounds and Scout Sentinels are decent enough to be used every now and then. We have by far the largest amount of competitive options available to us than anyone else, giving us flexibility.
Yeah, I think we have it pretty good. In fact, the only way from here is down. Astra Militarum is the best army in the game today. It was a long break between the 'Leafblower' days and now, but the humans got to the top again.
From what I hear Orks and Tyranids are at the top. Luckily the imperial guard have the best counters to them.....lots and lots of bullets!!! I really want to caution people to be careful with the all in on scions. That is the 7th edition mindset taking over.
Yeah, they're right behind us, because we have all the tools anyone would ever need to beat them. I'm very confident I can utterly annihilate those armies with my list that's been posted in this thread. My list isn't all in on the Scions. I'll be beating them in assault too. On average rolls, my alpha strike, shooting, fighting and morale combined, wastes over 150 Orks in one turn. "Yeah, that just happened."
I am confused as to what situation would have all of that happen in the same turn? Does your opponent just sit there? That might be the most you could wipe in a turn true but it is not likely to get even close to that. Following that math a mob of 30 orks will wipe out 20 guardsman a turn. Also you know that tyranids and orks have pretty reliable first turn charges right?
I'm confused as to what you think a footslogging Ork army's options are (that's what we're discussing). He'll deploy on the table and run towards anything I deploy on the table. His shooting is pathetic, because his army is built for points efficiency in wounds and close combat.
You kill 19 Orks from every mob of 30, and the rest explode to morale immediately. Taurox Primes shoot 180 times, hitting on 3+, and you can get re-rolls to that. Eversor Assassins have 12 attacks each, hitting on 2+, re-rolling wounds. 60 Scions shoot a ridiculous amount of shots. Mortar teams pound them at a great cost efficiency.
Yeah I know what they have. Tyranids have one reliable first turn charge, which you can counter with deployment. It's pretty standard anti-deepstrike tactics which I think I don't need to explain to you. Let them charge something you want destroyed.
If you can wipe their whole army out in one turn in an optimal situation, that should explain to you how you can probably win a 7 turn battle. If it doesn't, then we have nothing further to talk about. Why people 'think Tyranids and Orks are at the top' is because the same people are building completely inefficient Astra Militarum lists. There's nothing to 'discuss' or 'debate' what the best units in the game are. We have them. If you can't win with them due to consistently getting outplayed by your opponents, well, hey, that's on you, not me.
I'll demonstrate this by winning the first GT I attend in 8th edition once my army is complete. Due to summer vacations and painting, it should be around September. All the casuals who come with fun armies will get tabled on turn one if I seize initiative.
That tells me you have not read the ork rules as they dont explode to morale. They typically lose at most 1-3 guys. But alright if you think it will be that easy I look forward to seeing you at the top GT tables with your list that relies on going first and them totally not killing anything and just running straight into your guns. I never said it was a bad list, you seem to be taking it personally. I was just providing caution on saying how "completely optimized and impossible to beat" it is. Honestly, a well constructed tau list really doesnt seem to have much to fear. It out ranges you and your plasma deep strike is easily countered.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/06 14:01:55
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Did you really just write that? Completely and utterly embarassing for you.
19 deaths in one turn + average roll of 3.5 = 22.5. The unit has 11 guys remaining, so their Mob Rule LD is 11. 22.5-11=11.5. 11.5 more die. The unit is dead.
No further questions?
Not at all, because if you knew how to read you would see that the warboss limits them to D3 casualties. Or do aura and bubble effects only work for you/magically being able to protect your characters also only work for you?
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Did you really just write that? Completely and utterly embarassing for you.
19 deaths in one turn + average roll of 3.5 = 22.5. The unit has 11 guys remaining, so their Mob Rule LD is 11. 22.5-11=11.5. 11.5 more die. The unit is dead.
No further questions?
Not at all, because if you knew how to read you would see that the warboss limits them to D3 casualties. Or do aura and bubble effects only work for you/magically being able to protect your characters also only work for you?
I have no aura or bubble effects that I magically apply to 2000 points of Imperial Guard. In fact, all of my calculations that I've presented in this thread have been without orders or synergy buffs of any kind.
MMMhhhmmm and so you are going to ignore the fact that I corrected you after you insulted me? Yeah, keep riding your high horse buddy. I just tried to engage in conversation and you started insulting and being condescending. Get your final point in, I wont see it.
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Did you really just write that? Completely and utterly embarassing for you.
19 deaths in one turn + average roll of 3.5 = 22.5. The unit has 11 guys remaining, so their Mob Rule LD is 11. 22.5-11=11.5. 11.5 more die. The unit is dead.
No further questions?
Not at all, because if you knew how to read you would see that the warboss limits them to D3 casualties. Or do aura and bubble effects only work for you/magically being able to protect your characters also only work for you?
Not to mention that he would have to wipe out a massive amount of Orcs to even get past the built in Mob Rule morale protection (and that's before all the additional morale protection that comes from Warbosses as you have mentioned). You can reduce an entire Orc mob from 30 to two models and as long as there is still another mob of 30 boyz, or even two 15 model mobs, within 6" of them then they won't even run away. And the fact that Orcs will be rolling with Custom Force fields, can field plenty of faster disruption units, have plenty of other tools to disrupt lines or even teleport a full mob right in your face.
Not to mention that a cheap chaff line of Grots could easily keep all those deep-striking Scions stranded away from the main bulk of the horde.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/06 14:12:36
Dark it was, and dire of form
the beast that laid them low
Hrothgar's sharpened frost-forged blade
to deal a fatal blow
he stalked and hunted day and night
and came upon it's lair
With sword and shield Hrothgar fought
and earned the name of slayer
- The saga of Hrothgar the Beastslayer
2017/06/06 14:16:22
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Not to mention that he would have to wipe out a massive amount of Orcs to even get past the built in Mob Rule morale protection (and that's before all the additional morale protection that comes from Warbosses as you have mentioned). You can reduce an entire Orc mob from 30 to two models and as long as there is still another mob of 30 boyz, or even two 15 model mobs, within 6" of them then they won't even run away. And the fact that Orcs will be rolling with Custom Force fields, can field plenty of faster disruption units, have plenty of other tools to disrupt lines or even teleport a full mob right in your face.
Not to mention that a cheap chaff line of Grots could easily keep all those deep-striking Scions stranded away from the main bulk of the horde.
Exactly, thank you very much for backing up my point. Also completely ignoring the teleporting units, the charging battlewagons/trucks that are open topped, the dok tools.
A t8 battle wagon takes some work to kill, and then you have to deal with the guys on the inside. One turn of movement+advance and a unit of Orks is now in your face.
You can tell he has not actually played a round of 8th edition yet with how he talks about things. Maybe against a 7th edition list at most. I bet he doesnt even know how stupid useful tau drones are now. I would be curious to see what his scion list would do against a storm surge with bubble wrap and 15 shield drones.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2017/06/06 14:22:10
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
How to lose credibility and respect in 3 simple words. [Edit] Just saw your post above. Could you sound any more like an donkey-cave? There is quite simply no need for that level of hostility.
Anyways, the numbers floating around about average wounds dealt for the Russ weaponry is pretty convincing. Looks like its all about the Battle Cannons, Punishers, and Demolishers. I might still try out some plasma boats with tank orders to help, but I'm definitely magnetizing my turrets for this edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/06 14:22:55
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
2017/06/06 14:24:41
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Okay, Show me the math of how easy it is to kill a battlewagon considering your deep striking scions wont be inside of 12 inches, hell its easy enough to keep you outside of 24 if I really wanted to or I am going first. and most of your army will be over 18 inches away if you are going first? Before you say anything, three models is all it takes to protect my battle wagon from deep strike.
Same for a stormsurge instead of a battle wagon with 10 shield drones
Well, lets see it.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2017/06/06 14:27:45
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
How to lose credibility and respect in 3 simple words. [Edit] Just saw your post above. Could you sound any more like an donkey-cave? There is quite simply no need for that level of hostility.
Anyways, the numbers floating around about average wounds dealt for the Russ weaponry is pretty convincing. Looks like its all about the Battle Cannons, Punishers, and Demolishers. I might still try out some plasma boats with tank orders to help, but I'm definitely magnetizing my turrets for this edition.
That's why I don't really give a damn what he has said, not like his ideas had much merit on the table to begin with.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/06 14:31:40
Feed the poor war gamer with money.
2017/06/06 14:27:03
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
How to lose credibility and respect in 3 simple words. [Edit] Just saw your post above. Could you sound any more like an donkey-cave? There is quite simply no need for that level of hostility.
Anyways, the numbers floating around about average wounds dealt for the Russ weaponry is pretty convincing. Looks like its all about the Battle Cannons, Punishers, and Demolishers. I might still try out some plasma boats with tank orders to help, but I'm definitely magnetizing my turrets for this edition.
You are gamers. Anonymous gamers. I don't want your respect. What would that be worth? As far as credibility is concerned, my arguments speak for themselves, and so does the math. Historically, I also have a very good success rate at tournaments. You refuse to acknowledge straightforward bulletproof logic, and flawless math, and you think my credibility is in question. Yeah. Walk away.
Well I gave you an opportunity to show me this math, lets see it.
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Probably best for the thread to not engage with that level of donkey-cave behaviour. We have 20+ pages of good discussion, lets not get it ruined by one guy having a bad day.
What are the thoughts on the best Assassin to bring? Vindicaire still good this edition? Or is it still with the anti-psyker one (Culexus?) for shutting down enemy powers?
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
2017/06/06 14:30:31
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Swear if he was not a foreigner I would have sworn calling me boy was him being racist.
Assassins are a difficult one. One of the nice things I like about the callidus is with a decently low roll(with a re-roll) she can get inside the bubble wraps we can expect to see. Eversor is basically a really good chance to charge the first turn it comes in. Vindicare is mixed. If you dont deploy him on the first turn he is hitting on 3's the turn he shows up. Also you have to be very careful of the "infantry" keyword. I found that out the fun way that battlesuits are not infantry....
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/06 14:33:18
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Assassins are a difficult one. One of the nice things I like about the callidus is with a decently low roll(with a re-roll) she can get inside the bubble wraps we can expect to see. Eversor is basically a really good chance to charge the first turn it comes in. Vindicare is mixed. If you dont deploy him on the first turn he is hitting on 3's the turn he shows up. Also you have to be very careful of the "infantry" keyword. I found that out the fun way that battlesuits are not infantry....
Good points.
I'm not gonna lie, its a little overwhelming playing an Imperium army with how easy it is to mix and match elements that used to be shoehorned in separate detachments.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
2017/06/06 14:42:26
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Assassins are a difficult one. One of the nice things I like about the callidus is with a decently low roll(with a re-roll) she can get inside the bubble wraps we can expect to see. Eversor is basically a really good chance to charge the first turn it comes in. Vindicare is mixed. If you dont deploy him on the first turn he is hitting on 3's the turn he shows up. Also you have to be very careful of the "infantry" keyword. I found that out the fun way that battlesuits are not infantry....
Good points.
I'm not gonna lie, its a little overwhelming playing an Imperium army with how easy it is to mix and match elements that used to be shoehorned in separate detachments.
Yeah, I just counted up all my DKOK and I have 89 of them before heavy weapons platforms. So I will have one of the most expensive moneywise 50 man conscript squads you can have.............
For 150 points plus 20 for a character and 35 for a commissar(feels wrong without a power sword and bolt pistol) for 205 points it is a no brainer in any imperial list (IMO)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/06 14:43:45
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
I think honestly I do like the Detachment thing, but would still like for IG to gain back Platoons and Blob. It is what made them unique to me, that and the flavor and fluff to be had with some sort of combination of Platoon and Detachment would be awesome. Blobs for suitability in melee for regular Guard. Turn one charges will destroy regular squads of 10.
Assassins are a difficult one. One of the nice things I like about the callidus is with a decently low roll(with a re-roll) she can get inside the bubble wraps we can expect to see. Eversor is basically a really good chance to charge the first turn it comes in. Vindicare is mixed. If you dont deploy him on the first turn he is hitting on 3's the turn he shows up. Also you have to be very careful of the "infantry" keyword. I found that out the fun way that battlesuits are not infantry....
Good points.
I'm not gonna lie, its a little overwhelming playing an Imperium army with how easy it is to mix and match elements that used to be shoehorned in separate detachments.
Yeah, I just counted up all my DKOK and I have 89 of them before heavy weapons platforms. So I will have one of the most expensive moneywise 50 man conscript squads you can have.............
For 150 points plus 20 for a character and 35 for a commissar(feels wrong without a power sword and bolt pistol) for 205 points it is a no brainer in any imperial list (IMO)
Conscripts will be necessary to survive melee and to shrink wrap more vehicles and other units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/06 14:44:52
Feed the poor war gamer with money.
2017/06/06 14:45:31
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
In regards to the loss of blobs. While it has its advantages in the current edition it is also a liability. With how easy it is for enemies to get multi-charges, engage multiple units at once and the loss of IC unit buffs having a 50 man blob is much easier to counter. Also considering how cheap and easy it is to get orders now(I mean 2 orders for 30 points? madness!!) Its not as big of a deal to have blobs.
It feels more fluffy now that you can have overlapping squads covering fire, dedicated advancing units and long range units within a platoon. So on and so forth.
Now I just need to try and get enough tanith models to have 1-2 "Veteran" Squads.
Anyone know of any third party lines that would make good tanith?
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/06/06 14:50:27
People who stopped buying GW but wont stop bitching about it are the vegans of warhammer
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
