Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?

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**Trickstick**

gigabite244 wrote:
Also they killed the vendetta, screw that.

Not really, it's just a FW unit now. There have been other units that they have passed off to FW in the past, such as the Griffon and Medusa, so it's not a new thing. I don't know how effective the Vendetta will be though, if it hits on a 5+.

**Blacksails**

I'm thinking FW will really enhance a few slots/vehicle platforms. TL HF chimera turrets, Vendettas and Vultures, alternative Russes, and more will be more than welcome.

**iddy00711**

@ Polonius

Actually you're right, I just did the maths. In terms of stats it's neck and neck but the extra Ap gives the Volley gun a 15% better chance at wounding.

Although the Autocannon has a longer range (so no need to move and no -1 BS) and it does 2 damage per wound, so I wouldn't dismiss it!

**Polonius**

I want to write a textbook on abstinence only education called "slot restriction."

**Trickstick**

Blacksails wrote:
TL HF chimera turrets, Vendettas and Vultures, alternative Russes, and more will be more than welcome.

I think you meant TL HB. I got really excited over the idea of a 3 flamer chimera, and had to look it up in IA1. Unless it is from another book?

Annihilator Russ could be fun, depending on the points.

**Blacksails**

Trickstick wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
TL HF chimera turrets, Vendettas and Vultures, alternative Russes, and more will be more than welcome.

I think you meant TL HB. I got really excited over the idea of a 3 flamer chimera, and had to look it up in IA1. Unless it is from another book?

Annihilator Russ could be fun, depending on the points.

Bah, you're right. Excitement levels dropped a touch there. Still be fun.

**Polonius**

iddy00711 wrote:
@ Polonius

Actually you're right, I just did the maths. In terms of stats it's neck and neck but the extra Ap gives the Volley gun a 15% better chance at wounding.

Although the Autocannon has a longer range (so no need to move and no -1 BS) and it does 2 damage per wound, so I wouldn't dismiss it!

I think consensus is that the Gatling cannon is the winner among the turret weapons, so the ranges will match.

Maybe I'm underthinking it, but I really don't see a lot of engagements at much more than 24" iin 8th. Things move fast, they deepstrke at will, and deployment is aggressive. While longer range allows you to be picky about your targets, 24" range will allow you to shoot something unless things are going very well.

**daedalus**

Okay, I'm gonna think out loud about choppy guard for a while and see what comes of it.

Priest with evicerator - 57
Commissar with powerfist - 41
Infantry with power sword - 44
Infantry with power sword - 44
Total 186

I want to pause for a moment and point out that you can give the infantry squads both plasmaguns and that comes out just under 200 points.

Those units have a D3 attack that hits 2/3 of a MEQ, and a D3 attack that hits 1 MEQ on average. The squads (including the sarge) get 3 total together. That's almost half a squad of marines dead there, and you don't really care much about counterattacks.

That's not horrible for what's supposed to be a shooty army, but definitely not the best in the world either. It certainly makes them capable of cleaning up something that they shot into after. I'm not married to the evicerator for the points vs effectiveness.

Are there any holdouts from the powerblob era that have a better way of doing it yet?

Bah. Thanks for the correction.

**Trickstick**

daedalus wrote:
Commissar with powerfist - 40

41. I found out that I had been forgetting the 1pt bolt pistol in all of my list drafting. It's a bit annoying.

As for power blobs, I used to really love them. I am interested in seeing some mathhammer between sword/axe/maul, and how the str vs ap works.

**daedalus**

Okay, immediate considerations I just came up with:

I think the priest loses the evicerator. Frees up 22 points.

Company commander gets added. 30 points.

Company commander can FRFSRF or Bring it Down as needed, and then post charge, issue Fix Bayonettes! or Get Back in the Fight! as needed.

That puts me at 208 points using 1 HQ, 2 Elites, and 2 Troops. I think my infantry is going to be organized in 'units' of that basic configuration. Three of these would run me 621 points, and get me a brigade with 2 HQ and 2 Elite slots left to play with, which is pretty good.

Editing this and the above for the +1 point for the damn bolt pistol. That's gonna get old.

**Blacksails**

I like it. Brings back a 5th ed debate I had for power blobs being organized into 20 or 30-man blobs. I might do something similar with 3 squads to get a slightly better meat to support ratio.

**Trickstick**

Blacksails wrote:
I like it. Brings back a 5th ed debate I had for power blobs being organized into 20 or 30-man blobs. I might do something similar with 3 squads to get a slightly better meat to support ratio.

30, unless you are talking an Al'Rahem blob. Then you go 2x20 with melta and priests.

**Blacksails**

Trickstick wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
I like it. Brings back a 5th ed debate I had for power blobs being organized into 20 or 30-man blobs. I might do something similar with 3 squads to get a slightly better meat to support ratio.

30, unless you are talking an Al'Rahem blob. Then you go 2x20 with melta and priests.

You're making me sad reminding we don't have him.

Also, we don't have melta bombs either eh? Just remembered that now that you mention it.

So clocking in at 642pts, you could get;

2x Flamer/HB/Power Sword Infantry Squads
2x Las/Plas/Power Sword Infantry Squads
2x GL/AC/Power Sword Infantry Squads

2x PS/BP Company Commanders
2x PS/BP Commissars
2x Eviscerator Priests

Slots in nicely to a battalion detachment, run them as 2 30-man blobs each getting one of the support characters. Double it for a little shy of 1300pts and fill the other slots with whatever you need to make a brigade.

I think that'll end up as my rough core for any foot slogging force. Weapons subject to change. Except those las/plas squads. Love me some of those.

**Trickstick**

Blacksails wrote:
Also, we don't have melta bombs either eh? Just remembered that now that you mention it.

Wow, you are right. I had not noticed. The Eversor can get them I guess, although at 4" range they are not the most useful grenade.

We do get demo charges, which are better really. It is just a shame that you can't throw all 3 from a SWS in a single go, as grenades are limited to 1 a turn.

**Blacksails**

Trickstick wrote:
Blacksails wrote:
Also, we don't have melta bombs either eh? Just remembered that now that you mention it.

Wow, you are right. I had not noticed. The Eversor can get them I guess, although at 4" range they are not the most useful grenade.

We do get demo charges, which are better really. It is just a shame that you can't throw all 3 from a SWS in a single go, as grenades are limited to 1 a turn.

I was just thinking how nice they were in power blobs for messing up vehicles. With everything being T/Sv, they'd be pretty cool with likely D6 damage.

**Chris521**

I'm curious about how the keywords for the forgeworld stuff will work. Obviously Death Corps and Elysians will have a regiment, but how about the other stuff? I know it's not a problem to fit things in an Imperium detachment, but I hope most of the armored goodies will be able to be apart of any regiment we want.

**Trickstick**

Chris521 wrote:
I'm curious about how the keywords for the forgeworld stuff will work. Obviously Death Corps and Elysians will have a regiment, but how about the other stuff? I know it's not a problem to fit things in an Imperium detachment, but I hope most of the armored goodies will be able to be apart of any regiment we want.

I would place a significant bet on the normal vehicles being Imperium, Astra Militarum, <Regiment>.

**daedalus**

Trickstick wrote:

As for power blobs, I used to really love them. I am interested in seeing some mathhammer between sword/axe/maul, and how the str vs ap works.

I'm staring at the melee table now. So, the power weapons are all balanced so that you get 3 points worth of effect on them. You can either put it all into AP (power sword), put two of them into AP and 1 into S (power axe) or one into AP and two into S (power lance/maul). Powerfists are weird, because it gives you three points in strength (for AM) and 4 into AP, but you lose to hit in the process. They're also more expensive, which makes sense. This strange way of explaining it is to break down where each point counts for what percentage. WS and AP are a direct 16.6% of effectiveness per point one way or the other, while S is trickier nowadays. For guard vs MEQ, the first two points translate into 16.6% more effectiveness, but the next point doesn't, since S6 vs T4 is still 3+ just like S5 vs T4.

As far as math goes, the best one depends mostly on what you're fighting. If you assume the world is T4 / SV 3+, then:

- a normal guard attack has a 5.5% chance of killing a SM (50% * 33.3% * 33.3%)
- power sword has a 13.8% kill chance (50% * 33.3% * 83.3% [normal: 33.3%])
- power axe has a 16.6% kill chance (50% * 50% [normal 33.3%] * 66.6% [normal: 33.3%])
- power maul has a 16.6% kill chance (50% * 66.6% [normal 33.3%] * 50% [normal 33.3%])
- power fist has a 22% kill chance (33.3% * 66.6% [normal 33.3%] * 100% [normal 33.3%]) and does D3 wounds.

Seems like the power fist is the best overall, though it also costs more than double. Looking at it though, against greater toughness, I think the maul would actually lose out until T9 or so, and even then, I'm not sure it would ever be worth the loss of AP.

EDIT: There were errors in my math. Now corrected (referring to those errors. Future errors not impossible)

**Trickstick**

daedalus wrote:
As far as math goes, the best one depends mostly on what you're fighting. If you assume the world is T4 / SV 3+, then:

- a normal guard attack has a 5.5% chance of killing a SM (50% * 33.3% * 33.3%)
- power sword has a 16.6% kill chance (50% * 33.3% *100 [normal: 33.3%])
- power axe has a 16.6% kill chance (50% * 50% [normal 33.3%] * 66.6% [normal: 33.3%])
- power maul has a 16.6% kill chance (50% * 66.6% [normal 33.3%] * 50% [normal 33.3%])
- power fist has a 22% kill chance (33.3% * 66.6% [normal 33.3%] * 100% [normal 33.3%]) and does D3 wounds.

So they are all pretty much the same against MEQ, other than fists. It is a shame that Infantry Sqauds can't take them. I assume that fists are the best choice for anything 3+ or better. So it really comes down to points.

I guess that using a mix of weapons could work, and that no weapon is the best for everything you could face with standard sergeants.

**bogalubov**

Trickstick wrote:
daedalus wrote:
Commissar with powerfist - 40

41. I found out that I had been forgetting the 1pt bolt pistol in all of my list drafting. It's a bit annoying.

As for power blobs, I used to really love them. I am interested in seeing some mathhammer between sword/axe/maul, and how the str vs ap works.

All the power weapons are about the same in terms of killing marines. The power maul and axe are equal, while the sword is a little worse. Against toughness 5 targets with 3+ save the sword becomes marginally better.
Until you get to toughness 8, the axe will generally be better. Which is easy enough as I converted all my dudes to axes in 6th and 7th edition.

**Blacksails**

I'll be sticking to the sword for modelling purposes. I think it looks the prettiest too.

**bogalubov**

daedalus wrote:
Trickstick wrote:

As for power blobs, I used to really love them. I am interested in seeing some mathhammer between sword/axe/maul, and how the str vs ap works.

I'm staring at the melee table now. So, the power weapons are all balanced so that you get 3 points worth of effect on them. You can either put it all into AP (power sword), put two of them into AP and 1 into S (power axe) or one into AP and two into S (power lance/maul). Powerfists are weird, because it gives you three points in strength (for AM) and 4 into AP, but you lose to hit in the process. They're also more expensive, which makes sense. This strange way of explaining it is to break down where each point counts for what percentage. WS and AP are a direct 16.6% of effectiveness per point one way or the other, while S is trickier nowadays. For guard vs MEQ, the first two points translate into 16.6% more effectiveness, but the next point doesn't, since S6 vs T4 is still 3+ just like S5 vs T4.

As far as math goes, the best one depends mostly on what you're fighting. If you assume the world is T4 / SV 3+, then:

- a normal guard attack has a 5.5% chance of killing a SM (50% * 33.3% * 33.3%)
- power sword has a 16.6% kill chance (50% * 33.3% *100 [normal: 33.3%])
- power axe has a 16.6% kill chance (50% * 50% [normal 33.3%] * 66.6% [normal: 33.3%])
- power maul has a 16.6% kill chance (50% * 66.6% [normal 33.3%] * 50% [normal 33.3%])
- power fist has a 22% kill chance (33.3% * 66.6% [normal 33.3%] * 100% [normal 33.3%]) and does D3 wounds.

Seems like the power fist is the best overall, though it also costs more than double. Looking at it though, against greater toughness, I think the maul would actually lose out until T9 or so, and even then, I'm not sure it would ever be worth the loss of AP. I think that the power axe loses to the sword from T5-T8. I'm going to say that the power fist is the way to go if you have the points, and the power sword is the second best. The other weapons are worse than the power sword unless you're specifically going after high toughness (T7+) with paper armor, and even then, the powerfist is still much better.

I might be reading your notations wrong, but marines still get a 6+ against a power sword. With the change to the wounding table, the axe takes a dip in effectiveness against T5, but gains effectiveness compared to the sword against T6 and 7. Then the sword is slightly better against t8 and above.

**NenkotaMoon**

gigabite244 wrote:
I just really dont like that platoons arent an option for guard anymore, yea conscripts can dish out more shots at 12 inches, but that doesnt exscuse the fact that its not on a 4+ so 5+ to hit and more than likely 5-6+ to wound, why would i be okay with that? And i do like how heavy weapons teams are now heavy support as they should be, but now commissars are mandatory in elites so i cant spam those either. Finally i dont like how fast attack choices are mandatory for a brigade, i had a solid 1500 point army last edition, but now i struggled to find 1000. Also they killed the vendetta, screw that. But tbh im looking to field alot of rough riders because of how cheap they are and "outflank any baddie that wants to sit back and snipe idk about yall but i feel alot less flexible with who i can choose because i know that sime units i just didnt want to field at all.

I know how you feel, though Vendetta's are still around as everyone else has stated, just under FW.

**daedalus**

bogalubov wrote:

I might be reading your notations wrong, but marines still get a 6+ against a power sword. With the change to the wounding table, the axe takes a dip in effectiveness against T5, but gains effectiveness compared to the sword against T6 and 7. Then the sword is slightly better against t8 and above.

Nope. I was rushing to get out of the office and blew the mathhammer. You're absolutely right.

**Humble Guardsman**

Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
It kinda got drowned and ignored, but I want to pick it up again:
What do you guys think of the Imperial Defense Line?

Spoiler:

For 85 points you get this:

For a pretty huge terrain piece with quite some coverage, especially if you use the end pieces to extend the line (it's the long trench piece in the front, except with two more end pieces): to

The thing to note is that while infantry units on/in the terrain piece gain +1 Leadership and cover (+1 on their save), all the infantry BEHIND it (from the POV of the model shooting at them) gain the cover bonus too. As you can see on the pic that trench covers a serious part of the board even without toying with the 4 end pieces, so you can probably get cover saves for most of your guardsmen infantry hordes and heavy weapon teams (and particularly important for Scions for that sweet 3+ save, LS buff helps them too), which is big now that intervening terrain doesn't give cover in most cases (the entire unit needs to stand in it). IMO way better than the Aegis line which is only 10 points cheaper and only gives cover to models within 1" behind it (now that emplacement guns were hit with the nerf hammer big time you won't pick up an Aegis for the AA guns anyway).

I'm with you on the importance of fortifications, with a few disputing points. I themed my guard after a WW1 Brit regiment so trenches hold a special in my heart.

1) The Quad-Gun is nerfed, yes. But it is also significantly cheaper. For its points it's pumping out a not insignificant amount of damage against flyers. It is mathematically possible (though not likely) to down a W12 flyer in one turn with it. Also, I may not be correct but I can't actually find the wound stats for a gun emplacement at all, the enemy might not be able to even target it. I've probably missed something there.

2) The Defence Line grants cover to troops behind it unlike the Aegis, however it also probably locos line of sight for a lot of those models you would have firing out. Excellent for a Mortar team, not ideal for the majority of your other infantry units.

3) it's frikkin difficult to place heavy weapons teams in there.

4) I believe the Aegis is a little longer. It should be possible to reliably grant a +1 cover to infantry sitting on not one but two objectives in many matches.

I think both GW models for these are ugly though. I plan on crafting my own trenches and sandbag emplacements to the same measurements.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

NenkotaMoon wrote:
gigabite244 wrote:
I just really dont like that platoons arent an option for guard anymore, yea conscripts can dish out more shots at 12 inches, but that doesnt exscuse the fact that its not on a 4+ so 5+ to hit and more than likely 5-6+ to wound, why would i be okay with that? And i do like how heavy weapons teams are now heavy support as they should be, but now commissars are mandatory in elites so i cant spam those either. Finally i dont like how fast attack choices are mandatory for a brigade, i had a solid 1500 point army last edition, but now i struggled to find 1000. Also they killed the vendetta, screw that. But tbh im looking to field alot of rough riders because of how cheap they are and "outflank any baddie that wants to sit back and snipe idk about yall but i feel alot less flexible with who i can choose because i know that sime units i just didnt want to field at all.

I know how you feel, though Vendetta's are still around as everyone else has stated, just under FW.

Most tournaments disallow FW models. At least in my neck of the woods.

**Biophysical**

Just a thought for close-combat interested IG commanders: Colonel Straken gives the +1 attack bubble that Priests do, and he's a Company Commander, and he's pretty solid on attack (effectively a 2+ S6 power maul that does 2 wounds). He's about as much as an Eviscerator Priest+Naked Company Commander, and does the job of both. He's also got T4, 5 wounds, and a 3+ save, so he's sticking around longer as well.

Of course, you can stack him with a Priest to double up on the bonus, I think. 3 attack Guardsmen, 4 attack Sgts with power weapons.

**SonsofVulkan**

Therion wrote:
We have the best troops unit in the entire game, the Tempestus Scions. We also have access to the best elites slot assault unit in the game, the best dedicated transport in the game, and very, very points efficient heavy weaponry from the heavy support (HWT with mortar 9 points total). Our HQ has more synergy with units than almost any other army (Only Tyranids really complete) making them very worthwhile. Our guys are the second most resistant to morale in the entire game (Tyranids again the only army more resistant to morale). Our Fast Attack isn't top tier, but it's far from garbage. Both Hellhounds and Scout Sentinels are decent enough to be used every now and then. We have by far the largest amount of competitive options available to us than anyone else, giving us flexibility.

Yeah, I think we have it pretty good. In fact, the only way from here is down. Astra Militarum is the best army in the game today. It was a long break between the 'Leafblower' days and now, but the humans got to the top again.

The best troops for IG in my opinion are conscript blobs back by a commissar(Yarrick) and a commander for FRSRF. Scions look very good on paper but they def are not the best is only because they are just too fragile and die too quickly. Your list do have a lot of plasmas to deal with veh and monsters, but you need to get into rapid fire range to be effective, Orks and Nids can easily bubble wrap their heavy hitters to prevent you from doing so. Scions are glass-cannons, they hit hard but will die fast. I honestly would recommend you bring at least 1 or 2 conscript blobs to at least secure your home objectives and bubble wrapping your tauroxs in case you don't get first turn against a similar alpha strike army.

**Humble Guardsman**

Scions do work as a cheap deepstrike unit that can pop onto an undefended or I'll-defended remote objective on short notice.

You're not going to really suffer by letting a 60pt unit stay in reserve until Turn 3 (your last turn to deep strike). By that point your opponent has definitely committed his forces. Mentally, your opponent is likely to forget that the Scions are even in play since most people will be doing Turn 1 deep strikes. Or, if they are mindful of the threat, they're likely to overcommitt to their own objectives. It's hard to proportionally counter 60pts, so even then that's a win as your Scions can instead be directed to tip the balance in a contested objective.

To sum up, if you're going light on the Scions then it may serve you better to delay their arrival for as long as possible until your opponents forces are fully committed.

**SonsofVulkan**

Leth wrote:

From what I hear Orks and Tyranids are at the top. Luckily the imperial guard have the best counters to them.....lots and lots of bullets!!! I really want to caution people to be careful with the all in on scions. That is the 7th edition mindset taking over.

In my opinion Orks will struggle hard against IG, Nids has a better chance of winning. Boyz are not the best troops because each of them cost more than double a conscript (30 Pistol boyz cost 180pts) and don't shoot as good and weaker save. His Scion list has 6 Taurox Primes and 6x3 mortar teams, them alone if combined with Yarrick will easily mow down 2 maybe 3 blobs of 30 Boyz per turn regardless of the mobs rule. On top of that, those boyz are foot slogging and that teleport power can only be used once per turn, it is a huge gamble because that single unit will most likely die immediately next turn.

Nids on the other hand are more effective because the Gaunts are cheaper and much faster. Turn 1 they can bring 3x30 units of Gaunts with 3xTrygons in your face, and that is why I recommended at least a couple units of conscript blobs to hopefully absorb the shock. And Nids got better supporting fire platforms such as Carnifexs and Exocrine.

**SuspiciousSucculent**

daedalus wrote:
Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
Polonius wrote:

My concern is that enemy infantry will get cover from anything shooting from behind it. You can just put anti-infantry weapons in the trenches, and the anti-big stuff weapons behind, but I can see a lot of time savvy opponents are going to gain cover from your own shooting.

I think this is a definition issue, if the model is considered to have a front (with the skulls and additional shields) and back facing (with the supplies and ammo boxes), all units on your side would be behind it and all units on the side facing the front would be in front, no matter the perspective of the model.

If it actually gives cover to infantry on both sides then I agree, the fortification would be too expensive for what it provides and too limited in application.

I read it like it goes both ways. "[units] behind it from the point of view of the firing unit receives the benefit of cover" seems pretty universal.

If you read the rules, it states that the units must be both in it and behind it from the point of view of the firing unit. So enemy units will not benefit unless they are in it, but your own units behind but not in the fortification don't either.