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 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

If you read the rules, it states that the units must be both in it and behind it from the point of view of the firing unit. So enemy units will not benefit unless they are in it, but your own units behind but not in the fortification don't either.

"Infantry units within an Imperial Defence Line, and behind it from the point of view of the firing unit, receive the benefit of cover."

Yeah. Huh. I actually misparsed that as an independent clause and let common sense carry me the rest of the way to not getting it the first time around. So... if a unit is standing where only its shins are covered by the Imperial Defence Line (inside it) you get a cover save. But if you're standing BEHIND it, where most of you is going to be covered up by the walls and the models inside? Nope. Nothing. That's fantastic.

Hey fellas, just a friendly thought from guy on receiving end of some guard today!

Mortar squads are criminally efficient. 6d6 shots that dont need los for ~50 pts just mulched my Skitarii.

Orders felt effective and worthwhile, cycle charges were had against me. (He was valhallan, go figure)

Lascannons did work popping kastelens, Flamer SWS could put the hurt out with surprising speed.

Guard CC had very little to deal with my HQs. Eliminated PF commissar and then it was just some guardsmen needing 5/6's to wound and a 2+ save to deal with. Both my TPD and Cawl survived till end of game against 4+ guard squads)

Just some thoughts!

Last night I ran a friendly game with a friend using the following.He brought the followingIt was an educational game. While it was a 'just for fun beer and popcorn game' there were a few things I picked up.
* Chimeras are not as bad as I thought they would be. The fact that they never degrade shooting is pretty nice. One did 2 wounds to the chaos lord when it tried to charge.
* Chimeras are tougher than Taurox'. That 1 point of toughness does matter when getting shot by autocannons.
* Taurox' prime can mow down cultists like it's nobody's business. With the moral test, my taurox killed 18 in one round.
* Terminators deep striking with combi-meltas is nasty.
* The LRBTs were underwhelming. They killed a few terminators, a few havocs but I did not have an 'OMG' moment with them.
* I deep struck a scion squad and opened up a can of Havocs. After rapid firing I killed them all. On the following turn they were charged by bezerkers and wiped out. The counter charge can really hurt.
* Even with commissar support, the scion squads were completely wiped out when assaulted. Be it by a chaos lord, by bezerker squads or whatever. Out of the 4 squads, I lost 3 to assault.
* The lord commissar used a power sword to kill his Chaos Lord who was down to 1 wound. I used to command point to break sequence and was able to kill him before he could swing.
* I used my chimeras to lock bezerkers in assault.

Chimera's never were bad, just expensive for what you get. Pretty everything I thought seems to be true.

Am I missing something or what is the point of the Deathstrike? It seems really bad for it's cost now (both powerlevel and pointcost).
On average it will once per game deal 5 mortal wounds to it's target, then 1 mortal wound to any unit within 6" (if any), which on it's own isn't that impressive. Then add the fact that it will rarely shoot before turn 4.

As a huge fan of the LR Vanquisher I'm also saddened by the fact that this tank seems inferior to the regular LR BT in pretty much every way, and as a huge fan of melee-oriented blob-guard I'm sad that we can no longer combine plutoons.

Other than that though, I'm a happy general. Can't wait to try out my new and improved Bullgryns and Rough Riders.

 labmouse42 wrote:

Spoiler:

Last night I ran a friendly game with a friend using the following.[]Tempestor Prime
Tempestor Prime
Lord Commissar w/Plasma Pistol + Power Sword

Commissar w/Plasma Pistol + Power Sword

LR Executioner w/2 PC
LR Executioner w/2 PC

Scion Squad w/4 PGs
Scion Squad w/4 PGs
Scion Squad w/4 PGs
Scion Squad w/4 PGs

Chimera w/2 HF
Chimera w/2 HF
Chimera w/2 HF
Taurox Prime w/ 2 Volley Guns, Gatling Gun and SB[r]He brought the following]Chaos Lord on Jugg
Dark Apostate

10 Bezerkers
10 Bezerkers
20 Cultists
20 Cultists

5 Havocs
5 Havocs

1 Hellbrute
5 Terminators with various combi weapons[]It was an educational game. While it was a 'just for fun beer and popcorn game' there were a few things I picked up.
* Chimeras are not as bad as I thought they would be. The fact that they never degrade shooting is pretty nice. One did 2 wounds to the chaos lord when it tried to charge.
* Chimeras are tougher than Taurox'. That 1 point of toughness does matter when getting shot by autocannons.
* Taurox' prime can mow down cultists like it's nobody's business. With the moral test, my taurox killed 18 in one round.
* Terminators deep striking with combi-meltas is nasty.
* The LRBTs were underwhelming. They killed a few terminators, a few havocs but I did not have an 'OMG' moment with them.
* I deep struck a scion squad and opened up a can of Havocs. After rapid firing I killed them all. On the following turn they were charged by bezerkers and wiped out. The counter charge can really hurt.
* Even with commissar support, the scion squads were completely wiped out when assaulted. Be it by a chaos lord, by bezerker squads or whatever. Out of the 4 squads, I lost 3 to assault.
* The lord commissar used a power sword to kill his Chaos Lord who was down to 1 wound. I used to command point to break sequence and was able to kill him before he could swing.
* I used my chimeras to lock bezerkers in assault.

How did you find the Russ durability though? It seems like people are generally saying that arty is for damage, but tanks are for staying power. Did they take a beating, or generally just avoided by your opponent?

Did you play with objectives? How was your ability to score?

Thanks for the quick batrep though. Your list seems similar to ideas I've been tossing around for a mech list.

 MinscS2 wrote:
Am I missing something or what is the point of the Deathstrike? It seems really bad for it's cost now (both powerlevel and pointcost).
On average it will once per game deal 5 mortal wounds to it's target, then 1 mortal wound to any unit within 6" (if any), which on it's own isn't that impressive. Then add the fact that it will rarely shoot before turn 4.

As a huge fan of the LR Vanquisher I'm also saddened by the fact that this tank seems inferior to the regular LR BT in pretty much every way, and as a huge fan of melee-oriented blob-guard I'm sad that we can no longer combine plutoons.

Other than that though, I'm a happy general. Can't wait to try out my new and improved Bullgryns and Rough Riders.

Really for 8E, it is either Conscript gak shooting blobs or suicide scions. Maybe some flamers to counter and artillery (including mortars), everything else is not that good. Mech suck, Tank suck, Guard blob non-existent. I know weren't top tier with that besides the mass of decent tanks, but jeez, not much variety in lists.

Personally I want to see some Rough Riders.

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

Really for 8E, it is either Conscript gak shooting blobs or suicide scions. Maybe some flamers to counter and artillery (including mortars), everything else is not that good. Mech suck, Tank suck, Guard blob non-existent. I know weren't top tier with that besides the mass of decent tanks, but jeez, not much variety in lists.

Welp, meta declared before the edition is released.

Seriously though, I think it's going to be far more interesting than that. Give it some time.

Personally I want to see some Rough Riders.

I completely agree with this. Hopefully they'll put out some models in the next decade or so.

 daedalus wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

Really for 8E, it is either Conscript gak shooting blobs or suicide scions. Maybe some flamers to counter and artillery (including mortars), everything else is not that good. Mech suck, Tank suck, Guard blob non-existent. I know weren't top tier with that besides the mass of decent tanks, but jeez, not much variety in lists.

Welp, meta declared before the edition is released.

Seriously though, I think it's going to be far more interesting than that. Give it some time.

Personally I want to see some Rough Riders.

I completely agree with this. Hopefully they'll put out some models in the next decade or so.

It's already released technically. I can look at a whole damned book at my local FLGS, playing with the rules already provided. I just can't buy the book.

Can ratlings really "run" away from a charge? Their rule shoot and scarper says they can move as if in the movement phase after making a Shooting attack, i know it sounds obvious, but does Overwatch count as a shooting attack technically in the rules?

You are all not seeing the big picture. Play a few games against a variety of opponents and you will see that spam is not going to win you all of the games. The number and types of targets are too vast for anything really to take advantage of being spammed. Many things are now more appropriately points costed in the context of the game rules now. One of the reasons that I caution so much against the scion drop is this: It will work once, maybe twice on each opponent. Then they will read the rules, learn how to stop it and now you have invested a bunch into a strategy that is not reliable from game to game.

With the extent that we can bubble wrap, how durable things are, and the returns of hordes will require people to adjust how they think and approach the game and specific units in general.

I think one thing that would be good is to sort of break things into general categories and identify the types of units they are good against. Honestly now that we dont really have slot restrictions we can do it on a per point basis.

Personally I think Mortar heavy weapon teams, 1-2 units of conscripts, 2-3 units of scions, and a bunch of officers will for a solid basis for any IG list.

2x mortar HWT - 54
1x50 conscript - 150
2x Scions - Plasma - 132
Scion Officer - 30ish
2x commisar - 80 ish
2x senior commander - 60

All of that is 560ish points, leaving nearly 3/4ths of your remaining army to adjust based on your desires. I am currently a fan of cmd teams with two snipers and a lascannon. For 48 points you get some random sniper shots and a lascannon shot. For every two you take a company commander, I mean two orders for 30 points? Crazy cheap so 63 points gets you 2 bs 3+ sniper shots re-rolling ones, and a lascannon re-rolling ones, all with 36+ range. Pretty solid IMO. Add in some 27 point mortar heavy weapon teams and you can deal with a bunch of units while also having a lot of models on the table. This allows plenty of space to invest in more expensive models while still covering your bases. I think that assassins have a lot to offer the standard IG army. At their price point it seems like a no brainer to take some eversors or vindicares. Dont drop them on the first turn. Wait till they either have an opportune target or the third turn. Either way their strength is in forcing your opponent to limit his movement and maintain a bubble wrap while they are in reserve. That is the main strength of reserves IMO, not for the damage they can do, but for how they force your opponent to limit their movement and play to the mission objectives.

 Blacksails wrote:
How did you find the Russ durability though? It seems like people are generally saying that arty is for damage, but tanks are for staying power. Did they take a beating, or generally just avoided by your opponent?

They were able to take 4 combi-meltas to the face, then a chainfist terminator hitting the side and it was not wrecked (though it did lose 9 wounds)
The T8 really helped in this case, as it was being wounded on a 4+ vs a 3+. That same firepower was a lot more dangerous to the chimeras/taurox.

 Blacksails wrote:
Did you play with objectives? How was your ability to score?

He did not want to play objectives as it was his first 8th edition game. I think objectives would have been fairly easy to get.

The Scions/Scripts is essentially my list with Sisters (Celestine and Priests) as support.
Yarrick to reroll (all) to hit 1’s
Straken and priests for 3 attack Script squads,
Celestine and Eversor for melee madness
Scions with (Optimus) Primes to deal with specialty units, (4x Rapid fire plasma is gross)
Rough riders (objective seizure) and Heavy Bolter guns to round out the list
13 CP’s at 2k points with 3 named characters

I like the Taurox firepower (but for essentially a similar cost) I can have bullet sponge Scripts that deal nearly the same amount of damage. 4 wounds to T8 tanks (+3 save) or 8 in Rapid fire (with FRFSRF) with a 150 point blob. Plus they have a ++6.

Conscripts and drop scions definitely won't carry a list by themselves.

Well, conscripts might if you have over 500 of them, but nobody's got time for that so you'll never see that list in a real game. That's entirely a theoryhammer list, as fun as it is.

They are just very strong tools in the toolbox. Conscripts are a good way to get ablative wounds, board control and charge defense. Drop scions are good assassins (but actual assassins are also good assassins now).

It seems like the main takeaway for Guard players is that as long as you have a solid foundation of infantry and/or conscripts, lasguns will be sufficient to take care of opposing light infantry hordes. We have quite a few different options for taking care of enemy vehicles and heavy infantry, though.

Heavy weapons squads are dirt-cheap and can use Orders, but they're fragile. Probably best for mortars that can hide out of LoS while being a minimal loss if they die, or heavy bolters that aren't much of a loss when they die.

Heavy weapon teams integrated into an infantry blob are a bit more expensive due to how the infantry squad rules are written, but they do benefit from the protection of their squad. This is probably where you'll want to put pricey stuff like lascannons, missile launchers, and autocannons, so the infantry squad can keep them alive.

Manticores and Basilisks are good artillery options. A good deal more expensive than sticking a lascannon in an infantry squad, but they do force an enemy to use expensive anti-tank weapons to counter them and they can be repaired by a techpriest. They also bring a heavy bolter and heavy stubber to the party to help improve their hull:weapon ratio. Manticores bring the better firepower-per-point between the two, but Basilisks can form squadrons so you can bring more of them if you have a large budget. Basilisks are also cheaper per model, so on the tight budget end you can also use them to free up points at the cost of firepower. So basically Basilisks fit into large and small budgets, with Manticores covering mid-size budgets.

Hellhounds are pretty much purely for dealing with heavy infantry, though the inferno cannon can pull some light anti-vehicle duty thanks to doing two damage per wound. Hellhounds are very good at their job.

With the Vendetta returning as a FW model, the Vendetta will likely be very expensive (its weapons alone will run 120 points), but an exceedingly good tankbuster. On the one hand all your eggs will be in one basket, but on the other hand it'll probably only need one turn (of sitting still in hover mode, unless FW gives it a way to counter the movement penalty) to turn the enemy's basket into a smoking crater. Unless it gets the Exterminator treatment and they just take away its Twin Linked.

Going back to assassins, I think the Vindicare is good. Easily 80 points good. Maybe even take two for that price good.

He's a character, which radically increases his survival rate. He wounds most characters 50% of the time or better, ignores cover, denies invul saves, and can do a D3 (or D6!) damage from a successful shot.

Sure, they're not taking down Rowboat, but two have a reasonable possibility of having a character evaporate by round two or three, and unlike scions, you can't deepstrike screen for that stuff. It's a "get in the opponent's head" kind of character. I like that. I like that a lot.

 daedalus wrote:
Going back to assassins, I think the Vindicare is good. Easily 80 points good. Maybe even take two for that price good.

He's a character, which radically increases his survival rate. He wounds most characters 50% of the time or better, ignores cover, denies invul saves, and can do a D3 (or D6!) damage from a successful shot.

Sure, they're not taking down Rowboat, but two have a reasonable possibility of having a character evaporate by round two or three, and unlike scions, you can't deepstrike screen for that stuff. It's a "get in the opponent's head" kind of character. I like that. I like that a lot.

Just remember he is limited by the infantry keyword as I learned against TAU which I am guessing most monstrous creatures wont have either. So he is pretty strong, but his target selection can be limited.

 Leth wrote:


Just remember he is limited by the infantry keyword as I learned against TAU which I am guessing most monstrous creatures wont have either. So he is pretty strong, but his target selection can be limited.

Honestly, I don't consider that to be that much of a limitation for everything else you get. Even a 4+ to wound is pretty good for everything else that comes along with him.

Of course, I may always change my mind once I put him in a game or two.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
Can ratlings really "run" away from a charge? Their rule shoot and scarper says they can move as if in the movement phase after making a Shooting attack, i know it sounds obvious, but does Overwatch count as a shooting attack technically in the rules?

Overwatch rule, page 182: "Overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack... and uses all the normal rules except a 6 is always required..."

Shoot Sharp and Scarper: "Immediately after making a Shooting attack..."

So overwatch is a normal shooting attack, and Ratlings can move after a shooting attack. It sort of suits the idea of scarpering too!

He's definitely highly specialized. He has one job, and he's got a good union. He kills characters.

The good news about him being limited to the infantry keyword, is that anything that doesn't have the infantry keyword can be taken out with ordinary heavy weapons. So as long as you have him in a well-balanced list, his one job is also conveniently the only thing you need him for.

 ross-128 wrote:
He's definitely highly specialized. He has one job, and he's got a good union. He kills characters.

The good news about him being limited to the infantry keyword, is that anything that doesn't have the infantry keyword can be taken out with ordinary heavy weapons. So as long as you have him in a well-balanced list, his one job is also conveniently the only thing you need him for.

Yep, but we have to remember that there are lots of things that are characters but not infantry and so to think about that within your lists. Durable things like daemon princes and tyranid monstrous creatures that he will be wounding on 5's. We also have to prepare for things like seeker missiles and destroyer missiles that do flat mortal wounds. While few in number they can be deadly with the right combination of marker lights and hitting bonuses.

 Leth wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
He's definitely highly specialized. He has one job, and he's got a good union. He kills characters.

The good news about him being limited to the infantry keyword, is that anything that doesn't have the infantry keyword can be taken out with ordinary heavy weapons. So as long as you have him in a well-balanced list, his one job is also conveniently the only thing you need him for.

Yep, but we have to remember that there are lots of things that are characters but not infantry and so to think about that within your lists. Durable things like daemon princes and tyranid monstrous creatures that he will be wounding on 5's

Yeah, but non-infantry characters don't benefit from the Character screening rule. Like I said, you can target those with ordinary heavy weapons.

 ross-128 wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
He's definitely highly specialized. He has one job, and he's got a good union. He kills characters.

The good news about him being limited to the infantry keyword, is that anything that doesn't have the infantry keyword can be taken out with ordinary heavy weapons. So as long as you have him in a well-balanced list, his one job is also conveniently the only thing you need him for.

Yep, but we have to remember that there are lots of things that are characters but not infantry and so to think about that within your lists. Durable things like daemon princes and tyranid monstrous creatures that he will be wounding on 5's

Yeah, but non-infantry characters don't benefit from the Character screening rule. Like I said, you can target those with ordinary heavy weapons.

Character rules make no mention of infantry, only that they be characters without a wound characteristic of 10 or more

 ross-128 wrote:
.Heavy weapon teams integrated into an infantry blob are a bit more expensive due to how the infantry squad rules are written, but they do benefit from the protection of their squad. This is probably where you'll want to put pricey stuff like lascannons, missile launchers, and autocannons, so the infantry squad can keep them alive.

You can't blob regular squads anymore, you can only have 10 man squads.

 ross-128 wrote:

 Leth wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
He's definitely highly specialized. He has one job, and he's got a good union. He kills characters.

The good news about him being limited to the infantry keyword, is that anything that doesn't have the infantry keyword can be taken out with ordinary heavy weapons. So as long as you have him in a well-balanced list, his one job is also conveniently the only thing you need him for.

Yep, but we have to remember that there are lots of things that are characters but not infantry and so to think about that within your lists. Durable things like daemon princes and tyranid monstrous creatures that he will be wounding on 5's

Yeah, but non-infantry characters don't benefit from the Character screening rule. Like I said, you can target those with ordinary heavy weapons.

Characters with jump packs in a jump pack unit. Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf in a Thunderwolf unit. Crisis suit Commander sitting in a Crisis suit unit. Any support character with jump packs or sitting on a bike hiding in/behind a jump pack/bike unit. You'll wound all of those on a 4+, 3+ if you are lucky (if the target is T4 as you got S5 on the Exitus rifle). And they all profit from being screened by abovementioned units.

Just something to consider when you decide between a Vindicare and almost 13 Rattlings (91 points) who hit on 3+ with S4 and D1 and have their own tricks.
And that's coming from someone who loves his Vindicare and will definitely put him on the table regularly ;-).
I wouldn't use more than one in any case.

It doesnt matter because his initial premise is incorrect. Character protection applys to any character that is sub 10 wounds, regardless of infantry or other such things.

Well, that's annoying. Of course Tau would have non-infantry characters with less than 10 wounds. Tau seem to always find a way to be an exception to every rule.

Though it doesn't really make sense that jump infantry would not be considered infantry.

Overwatch is resolved like a shooting attack, but it is not a Shooting attack, it is Overwatch. I would not use Scamper without a ruling. Last thing I want is cheesy ratlings.

xmbk wrote:
Overwatch is resolved like a shooting attack, but it is not a Shooting attack, it is Overwatch. I would not use Scamper without a ruling. Last thing I want is cheesy ratlings.

I agree with you that i'm on the fence as to if this is rules as intended. That said, who charges ratlings??? I think this rule, if it remains as is, is great for ratlings in general. They are so flimsy.

 Twoshoes23 wrote:

xmbk wrote:
Overwatch is resolved like a shooting attack, but it is not a Shooting attack, it is Overwatch. I would not use Scamper without a ruling. Last thing I want is cheesy ratlings.

I agree with you that i'm on the fence as to if this is rules as intended. That said, who charges ratlings??? I think this rule, if it remains as is, is great for ratlings in general. They are so flimsy.

I view it as really fluffy too. Those little halflings are nimble and tricksy, and definitely sensible enough to do a tactical relocation in the face of impending Genestealers. Best cooks in the Guard too, just don't ask where they got the ingredients from.

 Trickstick wrote:

I view it as really fluffy too. Those little halflings are nimble and tricksy, and definitely sensible enough to do a tactical relocation in the face of impending Genestealers. Best cooks in the Guard too, just don't ask where they got the ingredients from.

"It only seems fair we fry up one of them Teeranits and give 'em a go, innit? Turnaround and all that."

"Right you are. They'd eat us if we gave 'em half a chance."

"Better them than us, I say" [takes bite] "Hm. Not bad... what do you reckon?"

"Hmm... not bad at all. Somewhere between chicken and shrimp."

"Right you are. Fancy another drumstick? The bugger's got like eight of them."

[Pours a drink] "To the Teeranits, the tastiest of space-shrimp-chickens!"