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 Aenarian wrote:

Mavnas wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:
Only 1 of the Eternal War missions uses Kill Points though (2 if you count the one where Heavy Supports yield kill points)

That rather sours me on the idea of HWSs and makes vehicle heavy support far more attractive. I know it is only one mission, but we already have problems with kill points. No need to double the amount of battles it counts for.

Of course, but it's a nice, somewhat hidden balancing factor. If you could take a unit which is (perhaps very?) overpowered on paper, but will lose you 33% of all the battles you play because of mission rules, will you use it?

Not saying that HWS are overpowered or anything, but it might reduce the power of some horde armies without necessarily increasing points costs etc.

But some armies don't really have good options not to drop lots of small units. Especially now that all units can split fire, kill points are just dumb.

And some don't have a lot of options to cover 6 objectives. It isn't optimal for anyone, but you would most likely have to rewrite the mission rules so that certain objective-based missions don't favour MSU armies and KP-based missions don't favour armies with a few large ones.

However, I'd just like to say that I fully agree with you in that it hurts us disproportionately. In fact, I think that IG is the most hurt by KP as Orkz and Tyranids can make pretty large units with 30 models while we cannot. Would I like to see combined squads back? Of course. But it's not the end of the world.

I don't see how you can't cover 6 objectives at 2K points especially since you don't have to hold them the whole time.

Imperial Knights? Other gimmicky all-in lists? I'm sure it can happen.

Mavnas wrote:


I don't see how you can't cover 6 objectives at 2K points especially since you don't have to hold them the whole time.

Because stuff dies. If you have 15-20 units and at least half of them die, covering 6 objectives can suddenly be quite difficult. Remember that IG has an almost unparalleled amount of firepower at their disposal.

What if you are playing an elite army, you will often not have more than 10-15 units (Terminators are about 200, heavy vehicles like Land Raiders far more etc), so losing half of them and suddenly you cannot cover close to as much ground. Or you remember that the amount of models near an objective are the important part, and your 5 terminators or 1 tank are much less than 30-50 guardsmen at the same price.

Missions are not fair for everyone, and if you believe that you are unfairly hit by Kill Points, you have a few choices at your disposal to mitigate it.

1) Talk with your opponent about rebalancing, for example that you get the unit cost in kill points instead of 1/unit.
2) Don't play kill points missions
3) Ask GW to write an errata.
4) Ask your opponent if you could be allowed to combine squads.

My army has never had combined squad while being almost as easy to kill as normal IG, plus having a rule where I can bring back dead platoons. So in a kill points mission, they could kill a platoon, wait for it to come back, and then kill it again. Of course it felt unfair, but the game isn't always fair.

Can manticore/basilisj/mortars choose to target characters if they are out of LoS??

shank911 wrote:
Can manticore/basilisj/mortars choose to target characters if they are out of LoS??

A character can only be chosen if it is the closest visible enemy unit. The argument can be made that Earthshaker Cannon etc. ignores the visible restriction, but it still needs to be the closest.

Has anyone done much play-testing for conscript blobs?

I've just bought some staggered movement trays for my 100 conscripts. Given that there hasn't been a competitive guard army since 5th, this should be really fun.

 Naix wrote:
Has anyone done much play-testing for conscript blobs?

I've just bought some staggered movement trays for my 100 conscripts. Given that there hasn't been a competitive guard army since 5th, this should be really fun.

Can you post a pic/link so I can see what a "staggered movement tray" looks like?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/201787901891?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&var=501827930946&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT -> Allows for closer placement of conscripts meaning better rapid fire, closer to enemy etc.

By the way, what do you guys think are the best weapons for Heavy Weapon Squads?

Expensive weapons like Lascannons or Missile Launchers?

Cheap stuff like Heavy Bolters and Mortars?

Also, do you think there's any value in mixing weapons (e.g. 2 Autocannons and a single Missile Launcher)?

Cheap stuff. HWS don't have character protection, and with multiwound weapons floating around their 2 wounds can vanish real quick. Putting expensive stuff on them is asking them to get picked off. Put cheap stuff on them, and your opponent might be more reluctant to target them when there are bigger fish to fry.

Expensive stuff should be embedded in infantry squads, which will likely draw about the same amount of fire whether they have a heavy weapon or not, and if your opponent tries to throw a multi-wound weapon at them, you can just allocate it to a single-wound model to waste a big chunk of its damage potential. The return to the 5th ed wound allocation system is basically an auto-pass Look Out Sir! for any model you like.

 vipoid wrote:
By the way, what do you guys think are the best weapons for Heavy Weapon Squads?

Expensive weapons like Lascannons or Missile Launchers?

Cheap stuff like Heavy Bolters and Mortars?

Also, do you think there's any value in mixing weapons (e.g. 2 Autocannons and a single Missile Launcher)?

Mortars are probably the best option. Cheap enough to not be a huge loss, while still being able to hide outside LoS and still be effective. The other heavy weapons should probably be hidden in squads, I think.

 Tyr13 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
By the way, what do you guys think are the best weapons for Heavy Weapon Squads?

Expensive weapons like Lascannons or Missile Launchers?

Cheap stuff like Heavy Bolters and Mortars?

Also, do you think there's any value in mixing weapons (e.g. 2 Autocannons and a single Missile Launcher)?

Mortars are probably the best option. Cheap enough to not be a huge loss, while still being able to hide outside LoS and still be effective. The other heavy weapons should probably be hidden in squads, I think.

Looking at the Designer's Notes, am I right in thinking you get a cover save for shooting outside LOS with mortars/artillery?

Edit: +1 save I mean.

How about 2 mortars and 1 lascannon in hws? It's a lower points total so less likely to be shot at. And if it has the Lascannon has 2/4 wounds before it's hit?


Also I am loving the manticore. yes it only has 4 shots but a game only lasts 5 turns so if it's still alive use it to drive onto an objective? Or assault a unit on an objective on the last turn?

Useless Sidekick wrote:
How about 2 mortars and 1 lascannon in hws? It's a lower points total so less likely to be shot at. And if it has the Lascannon has 2/4 wounds before it's hit?


Also I am loving the manticore. yes it only has 4 shots but a game only lasts 5 turns so if it's still alive use it to drive onto an objective? Or assault a unit on an objective on the last turn?

I would probably go 2 bolters and las. If you put a las with mortars then you are throwing way some of the use you can get from indirect fire: hiding them out of sight.

Mixed HWTs are a great idea! Didn't realise it was an option until it was just mentioned here. Heavy bolters and mortars have excess survivability and can used mixed squads to donate this to the lascannons.

It also helps stop opponents from sniping out lascannons if they have an all-tank army, or sniping the heavy bolters if it's an all-infantry force.

With split fire there's basically no disadvantage

 DoomMouse wrote:
With split fire there's basically no disadvantage

There is actually a decent advantage to split fire. If you have three lascannons in one squad, you have to decide how to split them when you fire. If they are in three squads then you can fire one at a tank, see if it dies, then fire another and so on. You don't have to worry about firing 3 lascannons when 2 would do.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Tyr13 wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
By the way, what do you guys think are the best weapons for Heavy Weapon Squads?

Expensive weapons like Lascannons or Missile Launchers?

Cheap stuff like Heavy Bolters and Mortars?

Also, do you think there's any value in mixing weapons (e.g. 2 Autocannons and a single Missile Launcher)?

Mortars are probably the best option. Cheap enough to not be a huge loss, while still being able to hide outside LoS and still be effective. The other heavy weapons should probably be hidden in squads, I think.

Looking at the Designer's Notes, am I right in thinking you get a cover save for shooting outside LOS with mortars/artillery?

Edit: +1 save I mean.

From the notes I take it to mean if they would have benefitted from cover if they were in LOS then they still do vs mortars.

I played a couple of games today, and while they aren't enough to draw any conclusions, I know a lot more than simple theory hammer. some of my thoughts:
1) the argument between more buffs/auras or more dudes ignores how cramped deployment zones get with 2000 points of even mixed AM, let along mostly/all infantry. We can dump a lot of dudes on the table, but that doesn't mean they're all going to contribute. I ran one CC in the first game, and two in the second, and I'm glad I had them. "Get back in the fight" "FRFSRF" and "take aim" are the standouts so far.
2) Scions are legit. Full stop. The Prime might honestly be a luxury, as the squads will often be shot to hell after appearing anyway, but in both games they were the primary offensive power.
3) Lascannons do work, but HWSs are fragile. That doesn't mean they aren't worth taking, but expect to lose a HWS a turn.
4) AM will be going last, every time. tournaments might tweak this, but get used to getting alpha struck. 8th edition is savage, and you'll lose 10% or more of your army before anything you get to roll a dice. Side note: both games were kills points, which was an uphill climb.
5) Chimeras are solely for transporting now. Their offensive output hasn't been impressive in a while, but with no fire ports, a -1 to hit for moving, and the overall devaluing of mid strength shooting, the chimera's only job is moving a squad. OTOH, it does that pretty well. Valyries are the same, only more so!
6) Plasma is the clear winner. i'm not saying you should only take plasma guns in every possible slot... but I don't think you'd lose out if you did. Flamers sound cute, but they don't actually ignore cover, and they are erratic. That said, flamers are great against units that are -1 to hit.
7)aside from kill points, the basic infantry squad is solid. 67 points for plasma/LC is a good buy. I also enjoyed squads with heavy bolter, flamer, and power sword. Being able to rapid fire and then charge is great!
8) Compared to other armies, I feel that our vehicles are somewhat limited in their damage. I was deeply unimpressed with the LRBT, and the straight d6 hits and AP1 on the inferno cannon left me a bit cold about hellhounds. My opponent had a stormclaw (or some sort of flying brick space wolfe flyer) and it just murdered my vehicles, while my tanks struggled to accomplish anything.
9) Sentinels, at least with multilasers, are complete trash. They are cheap drops, they pay the Fast Attack tax, and they can engage in some board control, but they actually accomplish nothing. I've heard good things about scout Sentinels with heavy flamers, but they're another 7 more points...
10) Multi-lasers and Autocannons are dead. Dont' even bother with them. Range doens't mean much anymore, and while the D2 and Ap1 of the Autcannon is nice, just spring for a lascannon.
11) mortal wounds are great, and Primaris psykers are a stupidly cheap source of them.

Oh, I have a question for you guys - which of the 3 shooting orders (FRFSRK, reroll 1s to-hit, and reroll 1s to-wound) do you use for what situation?

e.g. if you have an infantry squad with plasmagun and lascannon, which of those orders would you favour? Would the target make a difference?

Or if you had a HWS (ruling out FRFSRK), would you go for rerolls to-hit or to-wound?

 vipoid wrote:
Oh, I have a question for you guys - which of the 3 shooting orders (FRFSRK, reroll 1s to-hit, and reroll 1s to-wound) do you use for what situation?

e.g. if you have an infantry squad with plasmagun and lascannon, which of those orders would you favour? Would the target make a difference?

Or if you had a HWS (ruling out FRFSRK), would you go for rerolls to-hit or to-wound?

As a different thread points out rerolling 1s to hit or 1s to damage is exactly the same effectiveness. The only thing that matters if if something special happens on a 1 or a 6. So definitely re-roll your hit rolls with overcharged plasma. If you have snipers, reroll their damage rolls. (Also if you have someone like Harker or Yarrick, reroll damage as you're already rerolling hits). FRF is better, though obviously doesn't help when you're firing special weapons.

 Polonius wrote:

11) mortal wounds are great, and Primaris psykers are a stupidly cheap source of them.

True, but if you want cheap Mortal Wounds, look to the Astropath.

For one Primaris Psyker you can get almost three of them.

Here's my math on the difference:

We cast Smite on a 5+ with 2D6, Overcast it on a 11+.

However, Astropaths can only use 1D6 instead of the regular 2D6 for Smite.



Primaris Psyker;

66% chance to cast Smite, 17% chance to Overcast. 17% chance for Perils as well.

Astropath;

33% chance to cast Smite. No chance for Overcast or Perils.


Damage output:

3x Primaris Psyker:

3x 0,66= 1.98, meaning on average one Primaris will fail to cast.
3x 0,17= 0,51. There's a 50% chance that one of them will Overcast and 50% chance that one of them will get Perils.

Let's say for the sake of argument that one Primaris will cast a regular Smite and one will Overcast it, but will also suffer from Perils.

D3 + D6 = average of 5,5 Mortal wounds.
One Primaris suffers 2 mortal wounds himself from Perils.



9x Astropath:

9x 0,33= 2.97, meaning on average three Astropaths will successfully cast Smite.

3x D3: 6 Mortal wounds.



As you can see the difference isn't extreme. However, given how expandable Astropaths are and them having a nice boon if giving Ignore Cover to nearby units gives them my preference.
The fact that they are so expandable also means you can set one up (pretty much on a suicide mission) for a nice Gaze of the Emperor.
Laugh as your opponent forgot to spread out his men to the ONLY THING IN THE GAME WHERE YOU STILL DO IT, MUHAHAHAHA.



What do you guys think?

Managed to get a game recently. There were 5 of us wanting to play and try out the new rules, so we did 3v2 (3 1000pt armies against 2 1500pt armies).

My Team::

IG (Me)
Batallion I
Saint Celestine
Company Commander w/ Plasma Pistol
Company Commander
Commissar w/ Plasma Pistol
Infantry squad w/ Lascannon, Plasmagun
Infantry squad w/ Missile Launcher, Plasmagun
Infantry Squad w/ Flamer, Plasma Pistol
HWS w/ 3x Autocannon
493
Batallion II
Tempestor Prime w/ Tempestor Command Rod
Company Commander w/ Plasma Pistol
Company Commander
Commissar
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad w/ 4 Plasmaguns
Militarum Tempestus Command Squad w/ 4 Plasmaguns
Infantry squad w/ Lascannon, Plasmagun
Infantry squad w/ Missile Launcher, Plasmagun
Infantry Squad w/ Flamer, Plasma Pistol
HWS w/ 3x Autocannon
507
1000pts (9CP)

Eldar:
Farseer
5 Wraithguard with melee stuff
~5 Dire Avengers
~5 Striking Scorpions
~5 Swoopping Hawks
~5 Warp Spiders
Wraithlord

AdMech
Tech Priest Dominus
2 Kastelan Robots
3 Either Destroyers or Breachers (no clue which)
1 Dunecrawler
10 Vanguard
5 Rangers (I think) with a single, big sniper rifle
~5 Ruststalkers

Our Opponents:

Chaos
Daemon Prince with Wings
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster
3 Bikes with 2 Meltas
3 Bikes with 2 Meltas
3 Bikes with 2 Meltas
~10 Raptors with 2 Flamers
~8 Warp Talons
~8 Warp Talons

Tyranids
Broodlord
Deathleaper
4 Zoanthropes w/ Neurothrope (or something like that)
10 Genestealers
Old One Eye
2 Carnifexes
Exocrine
Tyrannofex w/ 20-shot weapon


It was mostly just a game for trying things out, so none of our lists were optimised. Since this was out first game of 8th, we didn't bother with objectives and instead just opted to kill each other.

Deployment:
Admech clustered in and around a building in the centre (save for the unit of Ruststalkers, which went in reserve), Eldar went on the far right (the swooping hawks and scorpions went in reserve). I put my 2 Autocannon teams on the far left of our deployment zone (only place they had good LoS across the table). A Lascannon Infantry squad went in front of one and a Missile Infantry squad went in front of the other. A flamer team went in front of the missile unit. 2 Company Commanders (one with a Plasma Pistol) and a Commissar went in the middle of all of them. My remaining infantry went in the middle of our deployment zone, with the flamer team screening the Admech stuff. Celestine and the remaining officers and commissar went in the middle of them. The Tempestor Prime and Tempestor Command Squads went into reserve.

Chaos bikes went on the left with the daemon prince and bloodthirster just left of centre (warp talons and raptors went into reserve). The carnifexes (inc. Old One Eye), broodlord and genestealers went on the left, Exocrine went in the centre, tyrannofex, gaunts and zoanthropes went on the right. Deathleaper went into reserve.

Enemy Turn 1
They elected to go first and everything moved forward, with the chaos bikes Advancing to get within melta range of our lines. Raptors arrived on the far left (in front of my lascannon team), and both warp talons went on the right (one in front of the dire avengers, another in front of the wraithguard). Shooting inflicted a few casualties to my guard (nothing noteworthy), but meltas took out 2 of the Admech Destroyers/Breachers and the Exocrine obliterated one of the Robots and damaged the other. Ouch. One unit of Warp Talons managed to charge the Wraithguard, the others failed their charges. However, they found themselves outmached - inflicting 2 wounds but taking about 4 back, and then losing a further 2 from morale at the end of the turn.

Our Turn 1
Wraithguard stayed in combat with warp talons, Wraithlord moved up to get near the other warp talons, my middle guys shuffled around a bit to get in range of the bikers, my left lascannon squad moved to make way for some Ruststalkers, which arrived just in front of the Raptors. The swooping hawks also arrived and landed in the top right corner, near the zoanthropes. The Tech Priest repaired the damaged robot.
Shooting from me and Admech wiped out all 3 bike units, along with about half the raptors. They also knocked some wounds off the exocrine. Eldar shooting killed off all but one of the warp talons.
In combat, the Ruststalkers failed their charge, the Wraithlord charge and killed the surviving warp talon and the wraithguard finished off the warp talons in combat with them.

Enemy Turn 2
The daemon prince and raptors moved up, ready to charge my lefthand guardsmen. Meanwhile, the bloodthirster, genestealers and broodlord moved up to threaten my middle guardsmen ("Do your duty, men, those Admech are far more valuable than any of you."). The gaunts moved within range of the wraithguard and the tyrannofex moved to get a bead on my centre guardsmen. Deathleaper arrived behind the Farseer. On the left, the 3 carnifexes plodded up the field, still well out of charge range.
In shooting, the exocrine damaged the remaining Robot (but didn't kill it this time) and the tyrannofex killed some of my middle guardsmen (nothing important). The gaunts managed to get a wraithguard down with sheer volume of shots.
In combat, the daemon prince and raptors charged my front 2 infantry squads on the left (the depleted lascannon squad and flamer squad), killing both. The daemon prince consolidated into my missile team. The genestealers failed their charge, but the broodlord and bloodthirster succeeded in charging my middle guardsmen. They killed all but the sergeant, who managed to put a wound on the broodlord before fleeing (or at least he tried to before the commissar executed him). Deathleaper charged the Farseer but only managed a single wound.

Our Turn 2
I brought my scions down near the carnifexes, with the tempestor prime behind them. My missile team withdrew from the daemon prince and the ruststalkers moved round to get nearer to him. In the middle, my troops moved into rapid fire range of the bloodthirster (save for their HWTs, which remained where they were). Zuriel moved into position to charge either the broodlord or bloodthirster.
Shooting was devastating. The daemon prince and raptors were both obliterated by fire from my guys and the Ruststalkers. Combined fire in the middle knocked the bloodthirster down to just 3 wounds. My scions vaporised one carnifex and left another clinging to life on 2 wounds. I can't remember what happened on the Eldar side.
Zuriel charged the bloodthirster, taking a couple of wounds from overwatch but then killing it.
At this point, the enemy team conceded – the Chaos player had been tabled and the 'nid player was badly outgunned, with many of his units out of position.


I know this was a very short battle but it's the only one I've managed to play thus far so I thought I might as well post it.
I think the main problem for our opponents was that their armies moved at completely different speeds (Chaos was much faster). This allowed us to focus only on the closest units each turn, whilst remaining largely untouched by the others. By the time the nids started to get close, the Chaos stuff was already dead or dying.

Anyway, here are my initial thoughts regarding IG:
- Infantry guard is fun. I think my army took far more of a pounding than either of the others on my team, and it was still relatively intact when the game ended.
- Flamers are meh. I love flamer models and I wanted some in my army if only for the sake of variety, but they really don't do much. The only nice thing was having d6 automatic hits on overwatch.
- Autocannons seem rather poor rubbish. 2 damage is nice. A measly -1AP is not. I think I'll try Heavy Bolters next time (probably worse but also cost a lot less).
- Plasma is wonderful. It was just devastating and pulled far more weight than any of my heavy weapons. When overcharged it was just brutal against multi-wound models.
- Unsurprisingly then, Scion command squads with plasmaguns are fantastic. Their firepower was just devastating, especially when I could land in rapid-fire range of my target. I'm not sure whether the Prime is worth it.
- Company Commanders and Commissars are both really useful. I'm tempted to take plasma pistols on both of them – as these really helped them contribute when the enemy armies reached my lines.
- I really enjoyed having St. Celestine in my army. I don't know if she was the best use of points, but she did some decent work during the game and it was fun to be able to put my HQ in danger, safe in the knowledge that if things went wrong she could resurrect somewhere safe. It was also reassuring to have one unit in my army that could do melee really well.

For anyone interested, my current idea when building IG armies is to create pseudo-platoons and then basically copy and paste them to form the backbone of my army. In this case, I started with this:
Battalion:
Company Commander
Company Commander
Commissar
Infantry squad w/ Lascannon, Plasmagun
Infantry squad w/ Missile Launcher, Plasmagun
Infantry Squad w/ Flamer, Plasma Pistol
HWS w/ 3x Autocannon

This gives me a full battalion (giving me 3CP of each of these platoons) and can basically act as a self-contained army on the battlefield. The HWS goes at the back, screened by either the Lascannon or ML squad. Then the remaining infantry squads can go nearer the front and advance as necessary. Each pair gets a company commander and the commissar will go wherever I think needs him most (he's the one element that might overlap with others, so that I can get the best use out of his aura).
I started with two of these in my army, then I added Celestine and the MT stuff (The Scions give my army significant reach without relying on the HWTs having LoS). Finally, I added a few plasma pistols to make up the points.

After this game I'll probably be changing my basic platoons a bit (Autocannons out, Heavy Bolters in), but the basic idea will remain the same. I'm also wondering whether to make the Scions a core part of the army and put one unit of them into each platoon. However, I thought I'd see if anyone had thoughts on building an army this way.



Sorry, this post ended up far longer than I'd intended.

Doctoralex wrote:

As you can see the difference isn't extreme. However, given how expandable Astropaths are and them having a nice boon if giving Ignore Cover to nearby units gives them my preference.
The fact that they are so expandable also means you can set one up (pretty much on a suicide mission) for a nice Gaze of the Emperor.
Laugh as your opponent forgot to spread out his men to the ONLY THING IN THE GAME WHERE YOU STILL DO IT, MUHAHAHAHA.

What do you guys think?

I agree with your main point that Astropaths are a better option than Primaris but I don't think the Gaze of the Emperor is quite as good as you think it is. The 2D6 inches is fairly random and you have to avoid your own units. Then it only has a 50% chance of causing a mortal wound per enemy unit under the 2D6 line.

 DoomMouse wrote:
I think it's always going to be a problem with the kill point mechanic. It just gives some armies a straight up advantage over others. If Imperial knights were truly balanced and always did as well as any other army, they should win kill points every time as they only have 4-5 up for grabs. I'd much rather see something along the lines of scoring the points cost for each unit destroyed - even if it is a bit more mathematical...

Easiest way would be Kill Points based on the Power Level of the unit killed. No need to do crazy math and the number is right there in the index to use.

Mavnas wrote:

As a different thread points out rerolling 1s to hit or 1s to damage is exactly the same effectiveness. The only thing that matters if if something special happens on a 1 or a 6. So definitely re-roll your hit rolls with overcharged plasma. If you have snipers, reroll their damage rolls. (Also if you have someone like Harker or Yarrick, reroll damage as you're already rerolling hits). FRF is better, though obviously doesn't help when you're firing special weapons.

Not quite. Rerolling a 1 on a 3+ roll is more useful than rerolling a 1 on a 6+ roll. Same odds of each happening, but the success afterward is different. I completely agree with the rest of it though.

One thing we managed to math out was that re-rolling 1s increases your number of expected successes by 1/6 in any situation (so 6 becomes 7, for example), which might actually be a more useful way to look at it.

So for example, 30 6+ rolls is equal to 6 2+ rolls: both would expect 5 successes, so they'd both receive the same total benefit from re-rolling 1s. You can weigh quantity vs quality by boiling both down to the number of expected successes that the re-roll is being applied to.

Though obviously, when the number of rolls is equal, "apply to the strongest roll" still applies. Because when rolling an equal number of dice the stronger roll will expect more successes, which will be further magnified by the re-roll.

I suppose a 5-success equivalence might be a handy quick reference for that purpose.

6+: 30
5+: 15
4+: 10
3+: 7.5 (so effectively 8, since you can't roll half a die)
2+: 6

Using those values, you can quickly compare any two roll values to determine the point at which rolling more dice will out-weigh rolling "better" dice. For example, a 4+ is worth 1.5 5+s, a 3+ is worth 2 5+s. This is also interesting for other applications: if using only lasguns, a 3+ veteran has exactly the same firepower as two 5+ Conscripts. (though as a whole squad they fall behind because the sergeant can't take a lasgun) Convenient, seeing as it's also exactly twice the price. Though using veterans just for their lasguns would be a bit wasteful considering how good their wargear options are.

What is the best anti-tank platform now? HWS is great but its too easy to die. I don't want to pay 20pt for these t3 w2 models.

jim300 wrote:
What is the best anti-tank platform now? HWS is great but its too easy to die. I don't want to pay 20pt for these t3 w2 models.

HWS in a bunker? Solves your durability problem.

I'm putting together some scions.

I bought one plain box:

1 Tempestor, chainsword and boltgun
1 Plasma
1 Melta
2 Hot Shot Lasguns

I have a start collecting box on the way.

I'm thinking of doing:
1 Tempestor Prime
1 Plasma
1 Melta
2 Hot Shot Volly Gun
5 Hot Shot Lasguns

I feel like this would give me some good variety of weapon options for the squad, plus the associated character. I don't want to lock myself into anything too hard, as this is my starting foray into 8th. I'm leaving my orks and space marines on their shelves for now.

Any thoughts? Would a flamer and grenade launcher be worth putting together? They seem a bit lackluster in comparison to the other three weapon types.

I'd say there's no reason to bring a flamer on scions.

The only place it shines is as a counter-charge tool when massed, but it's not like the squad isn't easy to shoot off.