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I started 8th Edition with him in a Plasma Executioner with a hull lascannon and plasma cannon sponsons. After six games, I switched to a Punisher with heavy bolter sponsons and kept the hull lascannon.

He kicks arse against armies that assault my lines and is still useful against enemy gunlines but you have to be more careful where you put him. One of the advantages of having more unit drops than my opponents is that I can put Pask down after I see where all of my opponent's units are placed.


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 daedalus wrote:

 JB wrote:
I just use eight infantry squads and no veterans. I don't even use HWTs or special weapons in the squads. I have two commissars and three commanders to lead those squads. They kill some enemy with their flashlights and the orders are very useful, especially Get Back in the Fight and FRFSRF. My real killers though are DS Scions, artillery, a pair of Hellhounds, and KC Pask. The infantry just has to keep the enemy away from my killers and also disrupt the enemy's attack plan.

I do something similar, except I use four with plasmas. Almost the exact same tactic though. Worked really well against GK. Hard to take out tanks when you have to waste a round clearing out their ablative armor first.

I sometimes mix in some plasma guns in the squads that are furthest from the enemy if I have any extra points. I have a multilaser scout sentinel that is only in the list as part of the FA tax for a brigade detachment. Six plasma guns would be a better use of points.

In five games, no opponent has killed all of my infantry squads. I won all five games and tabled the enemy army in four of them. I also tried three games using several tanks, less artillery (only three bassies), no scions, and five veteran squads with plasma guns and lascannons instead of pure lasgun infantry squads. Those games were less successful. I still won two of three games but I had a far more difficult time.

I have only played one kill point scenario and all of my games were matched play with either 1000 or 2000 points. In the smaller games, I only used six infantry squads. My favorite artillery mix is three Wyverns with two Manticores.



This battle was versus Blood Angels. I messed up my point count and faced his 2000 points of mostly Death Company, Sanguinary Guard, and Dante with only 1792 points of imperial guard. I still tabled him in four turns because he hit my line in three waves: Death Company with Lemartes on turn two, Sanguinary Guard with an Ancient on turn three, and a Furioso Deadnought on turn four. Dante was shot down as the last model on turn four without ever entering the fight because he turned back to his deployment zone to face my scions that had wiped out two squads of objective guarding scouts.

U02dah4 wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Rough riders seem to be pretty similar to scions to me if you arm each 5 man squad with 2 plasma guns.

Scions advantages: ability to deep strike anywhere (not on board edges), better BS, better ranged damage (hotshots), can take orders, 4+ save, slightly better LD

Riders advantages: 2 wounds (so higher durability), faster movement, much higher melee damage output, 4pts cheaper than similar scion unit.

I think they both look pretty useful to be honest. Looking forward to using my outflanking plasma-riders soon!

I would add that if your taking a brigade you need something in your FA slots and their arn't a lot if good options

Hellhounds are amazing.

Requizen wrote:

U02dah4 wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
Rough riders seem to be pretty similar to scions to me if you arm each 5 man squad with 2 plasma guns.

Scions advantages: ability to deep strike anywhere (not on board edges), better BS, better ranged damage (hotshots), can take orders, 4+ save, slightly better LD

Riders advantages: 2 wounds (so higher durability), faster movement, much higher melee damage output, 4pts cheaper than similar scion unit.

I think they both look pretty useful to be honest. Looking forward to using my outflanking plasma-riders soon!

I would add that if your taking a brigade you need something in your FA slots and their arn't a lot if good options

Hellhounds are amazing.

I'd second that, I love hellhounds so much. They're just so effective with that 2 damage! I have an artemia Hellhound too, and that is awesome. The 2d6 hits take the highest is so good.

Banewolf can do some work too, especially against nids monstrous creatures.

 vipoid wrote:
Ah. Which tank do you put him in?

There are a few promising options in 8th to take advantage of his BS2+. The two load outs I've been using is the Punisher with hull and sponson Heavy Bolters like I ran in 7th; that's 29 S5 shots of horde mowing goodness. I've also tried out a Vanquisher with hull Lascannon. The latter isn't exactly overwhelming, but it does almost guarantee two very hard hitting shots for taking on the heavier stuff across the table. Adding Multi Melta sponsons to the Vanquisher is an option too, but not one that fits in my own points lists. I've got enough deep striking Scions to handle those needs in closer quarters.

The Vanquisher is inferior to the Battle Cannon against every target. One better AP and 2D6 pick highest damage does not compensate for D6 shots with D3 damage. The same goes for the Demolisher, while the Punisher is almost as good against hard targets. In fact, a normal Leman Russ Annihilator Turret (Twin Lascannon turret) will deal more damage against heavy tanks than Pask in a Vanquisher.

In fact, the Vanquisher cannon is one I would never recommend anyone to take. alongside the Eradicator and the Exterminator.

So how do people think punisher russes compares to taurox primes (with gatling cannons and hot shot volley guns).

Im thinking of either running pask and a tank commander in punishers, or or the same points i could get 4 tauroxes and still have points over.

The russes have better str on thier weapons, higher survability and better accuracy(reroll1's and no penalty on main gun while moving), but the tauroxes put out double the volume of shots.

 ThePie wrote:
So how do people think punisher russes compares to taurox primes (with gatling cannons and hot shot volley guns).

Im thinking of either running pask and a tank commander in punishers, or or the same points i could get 4 tauroxes and still have points over.

The russes have better str on thier weapons, higher survability and better accuracy(reroll1's and no penalty on main gun while moving), but the tauroxes put out double the volume of shots.

This is my problem with the Punisher Russ; there are better places to get the Punisher Cannon, specifically those Taurox Primes you mentioned as well as the Vulture, which is probably the ultimate Punisher Cannon platform.

I get that you're taking it for volume of shots, but there's something odd to me about the HB sponsons and hull gun on a Punisher having better range and AP than its main gun.

Does anyone know if the Forgeworld Vanquisher Stygies VIII Conversion Kit fit on the chassis of a regular Leman Russ?
I.e. does it fit without having to be glued on, like the regular Leman Russ turrets do?

 MinscS2 wrote:
Does anyone know if the Forgeworld Vanquisher Stygies VIII Conversion Kit fit on the chassis of a regular Leman Russ?
I.e. does it fit without having to be glued on, like the regular Leman Russ turrets do?

It should do if it's anything like the Ryza turrets.

 Aenarian wrote:
The Vanquisher is inferior to the Battle Cannon against every target. One better AP and 2D6 pick highest damage does not compensate for D6 shots with D3 damage. The same goes for the Demolisher, while the Punisher is almost as good against hard targets. In fact, a normal Leman Russ Annihilator Turret (Twin Lascannon turret) will deal more damage against heavy tanks than Pask in a Vanquisher.

In fact, the Vanquisher cannon is one I would never recommend anyone to take. alongside the Eradicator and the Exterminator.

Not exactly.

Without Pask, the Leman Russ Vanquisher has both a higher chance of doing nothing and a much higher cumulative chance of doing "a lot of wounds". This is rather important, as it does give the Vanquisher a better chance of completely destroying an enemy vehicle in one salvo. The Annihilator is strictly superior than it, though.

Unit review time!

I tried a few units I otherwise wouldn't take;

Sentinels /w heavy flamer.

These guys are... ok for a cheap fast attack choice. You'll need to bring at least three if you want to create 'reserve deny' bubbles, simply because Guard usually fill their deployment zone.
If you really want a Brigade detachment, they are an ok choice.

Devildog.

These babies were surprisingly effective. With a multi-melta in the hull it forces enemies to deal with them or watch them take out a vehicle a turn. I'm not kidding, one of my Devildogs left 1 wound on a Helldrake.

However.... at 128 points, they are competing with the likes of a Manticore. Who can deal out a lot more damage and is oddly enough just as tanky.
Maybe not the best option but you will definitely not regret it if you want to take one or two.


Infantry squads with grenade launcher and missile launchers.

To try something other than the standard plasma/lascannon combo, i had several infantry squads with grenade launchers and missile launchers.
First the missile launcher. They actually aren't too bad. S8 means that they still wound pretty much anything on a 3+, and AP-2 isn't too shabby either.
However... I found that I almost never used the frag missile option. Granted I was playing against Marines. Frag missiles might be an option against horde armies, but you are probably gonna use the Krak option to take down their vehicles/transports anyway.
In short, it isn't a bad option, but you'll find yourself shooting the krak missile 9/10 times, thus making the Lacannon a better option.

Now the grenade launcher. Unfortunately, this baby has had it's days compared to plasma. The frag grenade is simply an average of 3,5 lasgun shots and the krak grenade isn't even anti-transport anymore, since it wounds most transports in bloody 5+'s!
Conclusion: spend two more points and grab yourself something much shinier and warmer (plasma gun).

MVP's from the match:

Astropaths. These.guys. They are 100% auto-include in any of my armies now. just.... sooo much utility for 15 points!
Deny the witch bubbles, ignore cover bubbles and some decent power as well.... just take em. NOW!

Vindicare Assassins. Nothing is more hilarious than to watch the likes of Kharn, Ahriman or Grahzkull cower in cover because their heads will get blown off by two of these. (Grazkhull with one wound left dove into the belly of a Gorkanaut and didn't dare to come out xD)
Just mention this sentence after you wounded a target: 'AP3, No invuln saves, no cover'. All my opponents so far called bs on that xD.

Surprisingly enough, they haven't killed anything yet in any of my matches. Mostly the enemy characters simply stay out of LoS. But watching Kharn spend two turns advancing just to hop from cover to cover kind is very interesting. Perhaps better positioning or splitting them up might be effective against this tactic.

Let me know if you have any questions about my matches!

I think your post just persuaded me to pick up a Vindicare next time I'm at my local GW. In all fairness, I've heard nothing but good things about them, I just always opted for a Culexus due to never running psykers to any avail with my Guard in 7th. All of the Assassins appears to have a decent role on the battlefield now.

Doctoralex, out of curiosity, what artillery have you been running?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:
The Vanquisher is inferior to the Battle Cannon against every target. One better AP and 2D6 pick highest damage does not compensate for D6 shots with D3 damage. The same goes for the Demolisher, while the Punisher is almost as good against hard targets. In fact, a normal Leman Russ Annihilator Turret (Twin Lascannon turret) will deal more damage against heavy tanks than Pask in a Vanquisher.

In fact, the Vanquisher cannon is one I would never recommend anyone to take. alongside the Eradicator and the Exterminator.

Not exactly.

Without Pask, the Leman Russ Vanquisher has both a higher chance of doing nothing and a much higher cumulative chance of doing "a lot of wounds". This is rather important, as it does give the Vanquisher a better chance of completely destroying an enemy vehicle in one salvo. The Annihilator is strictly superior than it, though.

On the Leman Russ debate:

http://elite40k.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/analysis-astra-militarum-in-8th-ed-russ.html

Ghorgul wrote:
I did analysis on havoc weaponry and my conclusion was that missile launcher is all around best choice. It is same price as lascannon and inferior to it against heavy targets, but not by much. The best part about missile launcher is ability to use frag if needed, allowing the squad to work as anti-horde. My opinion is that Missile launcher is best choice for TAC list.

The thing is though, how often do you need the Frag mode? It seems like you can cover that pretty easily with other weapons and FRFSRF (not to mention cheap HWSs with Mortars or Heavy Bolters).

Doctoralex wrote:

Sentinels /w heavy flamer.

These guys are... ok for a cheap fast attack choice. You'll need to bring at least three if you want to create 'reserve deny' bubbles, simply because Guard usually fill their deployment zone.
If you really want a Brigade detachment, they are an ok choice.

Out of interest, have you tried Sentinels with other weapons?

Doctoralex wrote:

Now the grenade launcher. Unfortunately, this baby has had it's days compared to plasma. The frag grenade is simply an average of 3,5 lasgun shots and the krak grenade isn't even anti-transport anymore, since it wounds most transports in bloody 5+'s!
Conclusion: spend two more points and grab yourself something much shinier and warmer (plasma gun).

Was there anything at all you liked about the Grenade Launcher?

Doctoralex wrote:

Astropaths. These.guys. They are 100% auto-include in any of my armies now. just.... sooo much utility for 15 points!
Deny the witch bubbles, ignore cover bubbles and some decent power as well.... just take em. NOW!

I was about to correct you on the price . . . and then I realised that the 6pt Telepathica Stave is entirely optional.

...

Yeah, I think a few of these are going to make it into my lists now.

Doctoralex wrote:

Vindicare Assassins. Nothing is more hilarious than to watch the likes of Kharn, Ahriman or Grahzkull cower in cover because their heads will get blown off by two of these. (Grazkhull with one wound left dove into the belly of a Gorkanaut and didn't dare to come out xD)
Just mention this sentence after you wounded a target: 'AP3, No invuln saves, no cover'. All my opponents so far called bs on that xD.

Surprisingly enough, they haven't killed anything yet in any of my matches. Mostly the enemy characters simply stay out of LoS. But watching Kharn spend two turns advancing just to hop from cover to cover kind is very interesting. Perhaps better positioning or splitting them up might be effective against this tactic.

Pleased to hear that these are good because I want to try one soon (I found I have a great conversion for one).

Out of interest, what do you shoot at when their characters are all hiding?

Doctoralex wrote:
Let me know if you have any questions about my matches!

Just one more - could you post the full list(s) you used?

 MinscS2 wrote:
Does anyone know if the Forgeworld Vanquisher Stygies VIII Conversion Kit fit on the chassis of a regular Leman Russ?
I.e. does it fit without having to be glued on, like the regular Leman Russ turrets do?

It will fit, but the older Vanquisher turrets didn't have the "nubs" that would let it get locked into place.

 vipoid wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Aenarian wrote:
The Vanquisher is inferior to the Battle Cannon against every target. One better AP and 2D6 pick highest damage does not compensate for D6 shots with D3 damage. The same goes for the Demolisher, while the Punisher is almost as good against hard targets. In fact, a normal Leman Russ Annihilator Turret (Twin Lascannon turret) will deal more damage against heavy tanks than Pask in a Vanquisher.

In fact, the Vanquisher cannon is one I would never recommend anyone to take. alongside the Eradicator and the Exterminator.

Not exactly.

Without Pask, the Leman Russ Vanquisher has both a higher chance of doing nothing and a much higher cumulative chance of doing "a lot of wounds". This is rather important, as it does give the Vanquisher a better chance of completely destroying an enemy vehicle in one salvo. The Annihilator is strictly superior than it, though.

On the Leman Russ debate:

http://elite40k.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/analysis-astra-militarum-in-8th-ed-russ.html

He's still not accounting for the distributions. In my opinion, the CCDF is more important than the average value.

I ran off the numbers via monte carlo simulation before the edition dropped. If I can find them, I can re-post my charts.

Anyway, my 2c on the Leman Russes:
Pask should command a Battle Tank, Tank Commanders should select Annihilators, Demolishers, [or Vanquisher/Battle Tank, but less preferred], and the tank followers should be Punishers.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
He's still not accounting for the distributions. In my opinion, the CCDF is more important than the average value.

CCDF?

Cumulative distribution function I think.

To that end, I made a Katherine style analysis script in python myself a while ago. Been meaning to post it, but I honestly forgot about it.

https://github.com/daed/mathhammer if anyone wants to work out their own mathhammer. It requires python and I think I have it set to do some 100,000 samples, but you can adjust that down if you don't want it to run so long or have an older computer.


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Requires a pretty new python too, actually. I think it's like, 3.6 minimum. It uses the RNG from a relatively recent crypto library, which is why.

 daedalus wrote:
Cumulative distribution function I think.

To that end, I made a Katherine style analysis script in python myself a while ago. Been meaning to post it, but I honestly forgot about it.

https://github.com/daed/mathhammer if anyone wants to work out their own mathhammer. It requires python and I think I have it set to do some 100,000 samples, but you can adjust that down if you don't want it to run so long or have an older computer.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Requires a pretty new python too, actually. I think it's like, 3.6 minimum. It uses the RNG from a relatively recent crypto library, which is why.

Complementary Cumulative Distribution Function. It's the chance of doing at least X wounds.

Nice script, by the way.


I've always thought that looking at the average along wasn't super useful. The game isn't long enough for the vehicle's results to reach it's average value. For example, the Vanquisher has a very, very high chance of doing nothing, and a fairly okay chance of doing a 5 or 6 wounds, but an almost zero percent chance of actually doing it's average value.

 vipoid wrote:


Vindicares;

Out of interest, what do you shoot at when their characters are all hiding?

Honestly any infantry with (high) invuln saves. You can easily snipe a Terminator a turn.


Just one more - could you post the full list(s) you used?

Yup!

Brigade detachment, 2000 points:

HQ:
Pask, Battle Cannon, Lascannon, Multi-melta sponsons
Tank Commander, Battle Cannon, Lascannon, Multi-melta sponsons
3x company commander, shotguns

Troops:
6x infantry squad, grenade launcher, missile launcher

Elite
2x Commissar, Bolter
3x astropath
2x Vindicare Assassin

Fast attack
2x scout sentinel, heavy flamer
2x devildog, multi-melta

Heavy Support
3x basilisk



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 slowclinic wrote:
I think your post just persuaded me to pick up a Vindicare next time I'm at my local GW. In all fairness, I've heard nothing but good things about them, I just always opted for a Culexus due to never running psykers to any avail with my Guard in 7th. All of the Assassins appears to have a decent role on the battlefield now.

Doctoralex, out of curiosity, what artillery have you been running?

I would advice and get two. One doesn't really cut it in terms of damage. Yea it's heavy on the points, but being able to quite reliable snipe ANY character per turn....

You can't go wrong with 3x basilisk. They put out a reliable amount of shots and can really tear a new one into any enemy unit.

Manticores are pretty solid too, though they usually need a command point to re-roll one of the 2D6's. S10 also doesn't do that much more than S9, since T5 is quite uncommon (Where are all the bikers at? Haven't seen em in any of my matches!) You'll also very rarely see T9-10.

Wyvern is good, but competes heavily with the Heavy Weapons mortar team. Well it's not really compete, the mortar is just straight up better.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

I've always thought that looking at the average along wasn't super useful. The game isn't long enough for the vehicle's results to reach it's average value. For example, the Vanquisher has a very, very high chance of doing nothing, and a fairly okay chance of doing a 5 or 6 wounds, but an almost zero percent chance of actually doing it's average value.

I agree. I mean, sure the average on a d6 is 3.5, but the likelihood of a single d6 disappointing you when you're expecting a 3.5 is about 50%. I used an excel spreadsheet that I did some bizarre math in to estimate probability spreads across all outcomes years ago, but that was more number porn and less useful information. I think your way of actually taking a couple thousand outcomes and modelling off that is much better, at least, from a practical point of view.

Doctoralex wrote:

Yup!

Brigade detachment, 2000 points:

HQ:
Pask, Battle Cannon, Lascannon, Multi-melta sponsons
Tank Commander, Battle Cannon, Lascannon, Multi-melta sponsons
3x company commander, shotguns

Troops:
6x infantry squad, grenade launcher, missile launcher

Elite
2x Commissar, Bolter
3x astropath
2x Vindicare Assassin

Fast attack
2x scout sentinel, heavy flamer
2x devildog, multi-melta

Heavy Support
3x basilisk

Thanks. I always feel it helps to have the whole picture.

I had a few other questions though (it was probably hard to tell because I messed up the quote thing in my last post):

1) Out of interest, have you tried Sentinels with other weapons?

2) Was there anything at all you liked about the Grenade Launcher?

3) Not a question, just wanted to thank you for making me realise that Telepathica staves on Astropaths were optional.

4) If the enemy characters are all hiding out of LoS, what do you aim for with your Vindicare?

 vipoid wrote:


Thanks. I always feel it helps to have the whole picture.

I had a few other questions though (it was probably hard to tell because I messed up the quote thing in my last post):

1) Out of interest, have you tried Sentinels with other weapons?

2) Was there anything at all you liked about the Grenade Launcher?

3) Not a question, just wanted to thank you for making me realise that Telepathica staves on Astropaths were optional.

4) If the enemy characters are all hiding out of LoS, what do you aim for with your Vindicare?

1: Nope, though I see no reason not too. You can get any other weapon as a heavy weapons team for the same price, only a heavy weapons team easily get's you 2x-3x the firepower.
(scout) sentinels pretty much serve two purposes: Filling the Fast Attack slot for a Brigade and creating anti-deep strike bubbles. Giving them heavy flamers makes the most use out of their movement and let's you fire at least once (since you are gonna overwatch in their first turn when it dies).

2: I'm afraid there isn't. The Krak grenade was just such a disappointment with the fact that it wounded marines on 3+ and only had AP-1. And the frag version is barely better than a basic Lasgun in rapid-fire range!

3: Yea man, no probs! To tell you about a sweet trick I learned:
Give at least one of your Astropaths Gaze of the Emperor. Then, when an enemy melee blob is close, advance him as close as possible to them and cast it. You'll get an average of 7" on the beam, meaning you can easily cover 10+ models. With a 4+ mortal wound, that will kill 5 enemy models!

4: Usually any character with (high) invuln saves. Terminators (especially with Storm Shields) are great targets. A vindicare will probably snipe on a per turn. Though it's less point-efficient than him sniping a character, it still an easy kill for something that would take your other units a lot more effort.


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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:


I've always thought that looking at the average along wasn't super useful.

It's both looking at the averages and the chances of said averages.

A good example I always use is the Basilisk's 2D6 take the highest VS the Manticore's 2D6.

I don't know the exact percentages, but I believe the Basilisk has +- 80% chance to get a 4 shots, but the Manticore has +- 43% chance to get 7 shots on 2D6.

While the Manticore will do more damage on average, this damage is spread out over multiple rolls. With the first two-three turns being the most important, would you rather go for lower results, but more consistency (Basilisk), or a weapon that on 'average' is better, but can sway both ways more often (Manticore)?

Of course, the Manticore can heavily benefit from the command re-roll.

I, as an engineer myself, also agree with Inquisitor Lord Katherine that looking beyond the average is important, but I usually don't spend the time to write simulations for it, and I think the average will suffice in many ways. If you look at the number of wounds on battle tanks though, you will almost never be able to really cripple it in one turn (the Vanquisher does 2D6 pick highest for example, which could result in 6 wounds, which is still not enough for BS5+ on a Leman Russ), I think the average will tell you enough in most cases.

I mean yeah, that one time your Vanquisher saves the match will be an awesome memory (I still remember mine exploding a Necron Lord's barge the first shot it took), but all the times it just scratched the paint or simply botched the roll entirely? Much more likely.

Though I can say that this discussion has me wanting to write my own software to do mathhammer.

Doctoralex wrote:

1: Nope, though I see no reason not too. You can get any other weapon as a heavy weapons team for the same price, only a heavy weapons team easily get's you 2x-3x the firepower.
(scout) sentinels pretty much serve two purposes: Filling the Fast Attack slot for a Brigade and creating anti-deep strike bubbles. Giving them heavy flamers makes the most use out of their movement and let's you fire at least once (since you are gonna overwatch in their first turn when it dies).

2: I'm afraid there isn't. The Krak grenade was just such a disappointment with the fact that it wounded marines on 3+ and only had AP-1. And the frag version is barely better than a basic Lasgun in rapid-fire range!

3: Yea man, no probs! To tell you about a sweet trick I learned:
Give at least one of your Astropaths Gaze of the Emperor. Then, when an enemy melee blob is close, advance him as close as possible to them and cast it. You'll get an average of 7" on the beam, meaning you can easily cover 10+ models. With a 4+ mortal wound, that will kill 5 enemy models!

4: Usually any character with (high) invuln saves. Terminators (especially with Storm Shields) are great targets. A vindicare will probably snipe on a per turn. Though it's less point-efficient than him sniping a character, it still an easy kill for something that would take your other units a lot more effort.

1) So far, I've only tried Armoured Sentinels with Lascannons and HKs. Both to fill out my FA slots in a Brigade and also to provide a little extra long-range fire (especially since I don't use artillery). They've actually been pretty decent so far. They're not especially hard to kill and their shooting is mediocre, but like everything in guard what they lack in quality they make up for in quantity.

Anyway, I'll try those scout sentinels with heavy flamers you mentioned. If nothing else, it will shave 24pts off my list that I can then use elsewhere.

2) That's a shame. I have a ton of models with Grenade Launchers and it would be nice to use them for something other than proxy R&F guys.

3) Thanks, I'll give that a whirl.

4) Ah, okay. I was wondering if you'd shoot him at vehicles, but yeah that makes a lot more sense. I have a Vindicare conversion that I'm eager to use, so I'll give him in try in the next game I play with IG.

Thanks for the answers and the advice.

Hey, been hoping to build a new army for 8th (a themed knight feudal world list) but pennies are tight at the moment so hoping to reconstruct an old raptors and scion force I had into a legal list as luckily folks are generally ok with proxying round here as long as its easy to tell whats what.

Going for scions supported with a few assassins and a couple of taurox and planes providing the heavy weaponry. Just want to check that my ideas are legal and not too cheesey as it does involves using several different types of AM regiments.

First of all am I right in understanding you can have multiple imperium forces in the same detachment? ie. guard and assassins and more specifically Elysians and DKOK with vanilla guard, reason being I want to use Elysian officers of the fleet with my the scions to buff up the shooting of the air support.

Secondly, can DKOK engineers go in Valkryies or vendettas? Fairly sure they can as the the valkryie rule say they can carry any astra militarum infantry and the DKOK engineers have that keyword. Do folks think they are a suitable unit to stick in the fliers and if so what load out do folks recommend for both the planes and the units inside. Personally I like the engineers due to the close range weapons and increased WS to represent Assault scions, chuck 2 meltas in a unit of 10 and bundle a priest and maybe a commissar in with them, original plan was to use a DKOK field officer rather than a commissar to reroll 1's to prevent over heating on carcass shells but apparently they have switched out the "take aim!" order for the regiment specific ones.

Thanks for any help you guys can offer.

I really don't see the reason to take a punisher leman russ over the vulture. Even if the vulture's gatling cannon WASN'T twice as many shots (and still cost the same amount), it has 2 more wounds, hits on a 3+ if it doesn't move, and is hard to hit. The only benefit that the Leman Russ has over it is being T8 and 8 points cheaper.

Did I mention that the vulture gets twice as many shots?

Actually, though, being able to use sabre defense searchlights on the russ is nice too. In terms of efficiency, the vulture still comes out ahead (even if it's hitting on 4's).

Goodness that bird is just ridiculous. Maybe I should get 3 instead of 2

I am I the process of building an IG list and I am debating wyverns versus mortar heavy weapon teams. For the cost of one wyvern, I can bring three mortar squads for a total of nine D6 shots. The drawback of rerolling wounds seems minimal.

I'd like to hear the thoughts on this from more experienced Guard commanders.

crouching lictor wrote:
I am I the process of building an IG list and I am debating wyverns versus mortar heavy weapon teams. For the cost of one wyvern, I can bring three mortar squads for a total of nine D6 shots. The drawback of rerolling wounds seems minimal.

I'd like to hear the thoughts on this from more experienced Guard commanders.

Pro for Mortar Squads:

- 9 D6 shots instead of 4 D6 shots.

Pro for Wyvern:

- Reroll to wound.
- Easy access to rerolling 1's to hit from Master of Ordnance.
- Way cheaper to buy with real money.
- Easier to hide on the battlefield.
- More resilient. 18 T3 5+ wounds vs 11 T6 3+ wounds? Overall I'd say the Wyvern is more resilient.

Let's do some math as well.

Vs. T3:
Wyvern: 14 shots on average, 7 hits, 6,27 wounds after reroll.
Mortars: 31,5 shots on average, 15,75 hits, 10,5 wounds. (+68%)

Vs T4:

Wyvern: 14 shots on average, 7 hit, 5,25 wounds after reroll.
Mortars: 31,5 shots on average, 15,75 hits, 7,88 wounds. (+50%)

Vs T5, T6, T7.
Wyvern: 14 shots on average, 7 hit, 3,89 wounds after reroll.
Mortars: 31,5 shots on average, 15,75 hits, 5,25 wounds (+35%)

Vs T8+
Wyvern: 14 shots on average, 7 hit, 2,14 wounds after reroll.
Mortars: 31,5 shots on average, 15,75 hits, 2,63 wounds. (+23%)

TLDR: Mortars do more damage per point than the Wyvern, but imo they aren't worth all the drawbacks compared to a Wyvern.
If you need them as cheap heavy support-choices for filling out a detatchment however, they're alright.

I've got a question for you guys (based off something that came up in a different thead):

If plasmaguns ceased to exist, would you start taking Grenade Launchers instead?