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Hello all, long time Nid player here. I am wanting to run a big group of genestealers ambushing into the opponent (probably 3x20, a Patriarch and Primus in a Vanguard detachement) - issue being they are wasted on chaff, which can easily be used to bubble wrap. I have been looking at the tools I have in Nids and Cult to clear chaff, and keep coming to the same conclusion, that Guard is simply far, far better at it! Termagants are really solid for that role, but they only have 18" range whilst Guard's best options ignore LoS and have colossal range...

So what would you guys run with the above Vanguard detachment? It costs 1125pts, so a fair bit left. I am mulling over Thud guns, Wyverns, and Mortar squads (possibly with some Basilisks/Earthshakers/Manticores thrown in for really tough stuff that genes are also not phenomenal against) - but I have no experience with anything Guard (beyond what's in Cult) so really don't know what's best.

CaptainO wrote:
Do LR block LoS to other LR. Could you "hide" Pask behind two LR for turn 1 at least (I'm assuming I'm going second) ?

The second there is any high ground that some one can park a lascannon on the tactic wont work.

but it certainly does work if you are playing only on ground level.

Benlisted wrote:
Hello all, long time Nid player here. I am wanting to run a big group of genestealers ambushing into the opponent (probably 3x20, a Patriarch and Primus in a Vanguard detachement) - issue being they are wasted on chaff, which can easily be used to bubble wrap. I have been looking at the tools I have in Nids and Cult to clear chaff, and keep coming to the same conclusion, that Guard is simply far, far better at it! Termagants are really solid for that role, but they only have 18" range whilst Guard's best options ignore LoS and have colossal range...

So what would you guys run with the above Vanguard detachment? It costs 1125pts, so a fair bit left. I am mulling over Thud guns, Wyverns, and Mortar squads (possibly with some Basilisks/Earthshakers/Manticores thrown in for really tough stuff that genes are also not phenomenal against) - but I have no experience with anything Guard (beyond what's in Cult) so really don't know what's best.

Mortars, Manticores or Basilisks (or Earthshaker/Medusa Carriages and Platforms). Thudd Guns/Heavy Mortars/Griffons are pretty darn bad, and Wyvern is a little lackluster.

Mortars are a nice cheap throwaway unit. For 111 points and a spearhead detachment, you get +1 CP, and 9d6 S4 shots that range across most boards and don't need LoS to hit. Course they're fragile as hell and can easily be wiped out in turn one, but that's why I called them a "throwaway" unit.

Has anyone had any luck with assault bullgryns in transports? I want to try and run 2 valks filled with bullgryn. Had decent luck with 1 as my opponent wasnt expecting to be assaulted by them first turn and they effectively held up Arhiman and his squad of T. Sons for practically the entire game. Once Arhiman broke combat, I deployed my Vindicare from reserves to snipe him off.

I used 3 Chimera with 6 Bullgryn, a priest, Straken, Yarrick, and a pysker + 2 SWSs in one of my first games of 8th. As long as you hit non CC specialist units it should be quite brutal. It's pretty good in OBJ based games since we now have a very strong base of fire and the best deep strikers so these resilient mobile units are quite tough since it's hard for an opponent to prioritize targets.

RogueApiary wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
I also look at Dual HF Chimeras as assault transports and run 4-5 (contemplating going up to 6 for a fully mechanized brigade) filled with either infantry squads or DKOK Engineers, though I am going to try Veterans loaded with flamers soon. The few more points it costs to give the Chimera heavy flamers change the vehicle from being an expensive rhino with no offensive output into a very dangerous medium assault tank that can also carry 12 men. A Dual HF Chimera with a squad inside is basically a self contained assault force; the men can pop out and screen the tank from assault if need be, or the tank can screen the men. It is now essentially a Hellhound that trades 1 damage and 1 STR for lasgun arrays and a transport capacity. It also has 12" move base which is huge and it gives the squad inside essentially 3 extra inches of movement when they disembark.

They are also very hardy! Turn one, drive 12", advance and pop smoke. Who cares if they charge you, you get your shooting in either way due to the HF overwatch. You are now in a great position for turn 2 to unleash your heavy flamers, unload your men into rapid fire range, FRFSRF and then bayonet charge while being buffed by the priest and Col. Straken who rode along with you.

Why Veterans with flamers? You're paying a 2 point premium for +1 BS to not use it. An SWS can also take 3 flamers and you can stuff two into a Chimera. I mean, you lose the HF from the vets and burn another elite slot (but that s what Vanguard dets are for), but that's still 6 flamers vs 3 + HF. Currently, I like to run run 2x Plasma CCS + Company Commander in a BBQ Chimera. Works pretty well in normal games, but I got stomped 0-3 in a tournament last week so I'm probably going to cut them.

You're right, I tried to make a list with them today and thought, why would I want to drive up and fire flamers when I could drive up and fire plasma. Then I thought, why would I want to drive up and fire plasma when I can just deep strike scions in and fire plasma and decided a cheap infantry squad was best to pop out and claim objectives / FRFSRF.

 Desubot wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
Do LR block LoS to other LR. Could you "hide" Pask behind two LR for turn 1 at least (I'm assuming I'm going second) ?

The second there is any high ground that some one can park a lascannon on the tactic wont work.

but it certainly does work if you are playing only on ground level.

It doesn't work in 8th because Pask is higher than the silhouette of the tanks in front of him. The enemy can simply aim at Pask.

RogueApiary wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
I also look at Dual HF Chimeras as assault transports and run 4-5 (contemplating going up to 6 for a fully mechanized brigade) filled with either infantry squads or DKOK Engineers, though I am going to try Veterans loaded with flamers soon. The few more points it costs to give the Chimera heavy flamers change the vehicle from being an expensive rhino with no offensive output into a very dangerous medium assault tank that can also carry 12 men. A Dual HF Chimera with a squad inside is basically a self contained assault force; the men can pop out and screen the tank from assault if need be, or the tank can screen the men. It is now essentially a Hellhound that trades 1 damage and 1 STR for lasgun arrays and a transport capacity. It also has 12" move base which is huge and it gives the squad inside essentially 3 extra inches of movement when they disembark.

They are also very hardy! Turn one, drive 12", advance and pop smoke. Who cares if they charge you, you get your shooting in either way due to the HF overwatch. You are now in a great position for turn 2 to unleash your heavy flamers, unload your men into rapid fire range, FRFSRF and then bayonet charge while being buffed by the priest and Col. Straken who rode along with you.

Why Veterans with flamers? You're paying a 2 point premium for +1 BS to not use it. An SWS can also take 3 flamers and you can stuff two into a Chimera. I mean, you lose the HF from the vets and burn another elite slot (but that s what Vanguard dets are for), but that's still 6 flamers vs 3 + HF. Currently, I like to run run 2x Plasma CCS + Company Commander in a BBQ Chimera. Works pretty well in normal games, but I got stomped 0-3 in a tournament last week so I'm probably going to cut them.

I'm also thinking that two packs of Rough riders running screen work perfectly for a chimera carrying ogryns too. Hah! We're close assault guard! Chaaaaaarge!

That'll surprise the hell out of your opponent for sure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Resin Glazed Guardsman wrote:
Has anyone had any luck with assault bullgryns in transports? I want to try and run 2 valks filled with bullgryn. Had decent luck with 1 as my opponent wasnt expecting to be assaulted by them first turn and they effectively held up Arhiman and his squad of T. Sons for practically the entire game. Once Arhiman broke combat, I deployed my Vindicare from reserves to snipe him off.

My last game 3 Bullgryns were the stars of the show until they got charged by a dreadnought. Learned my lesson there. Make sure to mix them up with shield types, I forgot to do that.

Does anyone know what the cost and stats are for the Mars Pattern Alpha Tanks and the Stygios Vanquisher?

I know they both have a co-ax weapon (which for so whatever reason can only be a Storm Bolter I think) to give it re-roll to hit on the main gun, sounds pretty sweet!

The Mars Pattern also has +1 save VS S4 or lower attacks. I doubt your tank will be getting hit by those apart from a horde of S4 attacks (Boyz for instance).

The Stygios can unfortunately only be the Vanquisher, but get +1 BS for not Moving. Along with the Co-ax weapon, that's a 89% chance to hit! Too bad the Co-ax weapon will probably never be in range for the big gun....

 JB wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

CaptainO wrote:
Do LR block LoS to other LR. Could you "hide" Pask behind two LR for turn 1 at least (I'm assuming I'm going second) ?

The second there is any high ground that some one can park a lascannon on the tactic wont work.

but it certainly does work if you are playing only on ground level.

It doesn't work in 8th because Pask is higher than the silhouette of the tanks in front of him. The enemy can simply aim at Pask.

I'll just be using a "normal" LR punisher as Pask. The fluff for my army is that they're from a toxic world so all infantry, rough riders and characters will have gas masks, conscripts will be zomified civilians/ex infantry (AoS zombies plus cadians) and all vehicles will be sealed (no dudes sticking their heads out)

I get that if someone can get a bead on the tank it can be shot. I just wanted to make sure that the enemy won't be able to shoot "through" the other tanks.

CaptainO wrote:

I get that if someone can get a bead on the tank it can be shot. I just wanted to make sure that the enemy won't be able to shoot "through" the other tanks.

I don't think that'll ever be possible without some creative modeling. The main problem is even if you can block the LRBT body with other LRBTs, the turret of the target tank will still be visible between the turrets of the intervening tanks.

I wouldn't plan on being able to keep an LRBT out of sight without a super-heavy, fortification, or terrain.

Tricky. Youd reeeeaaally need to have pask at the perfect angle.

Bring a Preator Assault launcher instead. Or a baneblade.

KestrelM1 wrote:

CaptainO wrote:

I get that if someone can get a bead on the tank it can be shot. I just wanted to make sure that the enemy won't be able to shoot "through" the other tanks.

I don't think that'll ever be possible without some creative modeling. The main problem is even if you can block the LRBT body with other LRBTs, the turret of the target tank will still be visible between the turrets of the intervening tanks.

I wouldn't plan on being able to keep an LRBT out of sight without a super-heavy, fortification, or terrain.

Gotcha. Ya it'll be hard to hide him and the big ass BS 2+ model on the board is going to attract a lot of attention. I have Pask "leading" a Cadian Spearhead detachment and Straken "leading" a brigade of catachans in my 2000 pt force. The real question is do I make Pask my Warlord and give him the FnP 6+ rule or make Straken my Warlord and not have to worry about gifting my opponent Kill the Warlord.

CaptainO wrote:

Gotcha. Ya it'll be hard to hide him and the big ass BS 2+ model on the board is going to attract a lot of attention. I have Pask "leading" a Cadian Spearhead detachment and Straken "leading" a brigade of catachans in my 2000 pt force. The real question is do I make Pask my Warlord and give him the FnP 6+ rule or make Straken my Warlord and not have to worry about gifting my opponent Kill the Warlord.

I would recommend Straken, as Pask dies very quickly to anti-tank fire. If your opponent wants him gone, he's gone, 6+ FNP or no. He's already a priority target given his damage output and buffs, so there's no reason to give up extra points for your opponent doing what they'd probably do anyway.

What's everyone thoughts on creed? I'm kinda disappointed. How have your experiences been?

 GreaterGood? wrote:
What's everyone thoughts on creed? I'm kinda disappointed. How have your experiences been?

Creed is 70 points, gives three orders and 2 command points.

1 Company commander and platoon commander is 50 points, gives you 3 orders, but you'll probably want voxes, so you're really looking at 75 points.
3 Platoon Commanders is 60 points, gives you 3 orders, and you skip the voxes.

I'd say if you use Creed, and assume you have to buy 3 voxes, then he's 85 points and you're paying an extra 10 points (or 25 with the PCs) to get 2 command points. I think that's pretty great. If you're willing to pile your troops up in one spot for him, then you don't need the voxes and he's absolutely worth it. He's in my list for my next game, so I'll see how he works out.

Once we have strategems of our own, I think he'll practically be mandatory.

I don't think I'd bother with Kell ever though. He seems useless. Once the battle starts, Creed is no more important or useful than 3 simple platoon commanders.

 GreaterGood? wrote:
What's everyone thoughts on creed? I'm kinda disappointed. How have your experiences been?

The only benefit Creed gives is his 2 additional command points just for taking him. He's more expensive than other sources of orders and requires more support because he can only be in 1 place at one time, whereas 2 or 3 other officers can spread out. You only need to cluster 2 squads per Company Commander to get full use of his orders, whereas Creed requires 3 within 6". Both are pretty achievable, but the latter less so and might spread out your power more than you'd like in some scenarios.

So how good are the command points he grants you? Well, he costs 70 points, and an equivalent number of order costs 50 or 60 points depending on how you spread it out. If we don't care about the additional bodies, as they are still pretty bad being guard, this is 5 or 10 points per command point. Given that the cheapest possible Brigade is ~500-600 for 9, this is actually really good. But if you have 20 command points already, is this worth it? Most likely in the future, depending on our codex stratagems, but right now I think we might reach a saturation point. He also only takes up one HQ slot, so all your detachments requiring more than this will become a little more expensive, but this is hardly something of consequence as you will either need mor orders anyway, and if you're taking tanks, you should almost always prioritize Pask > TC > Leman Russ.

Creed is good, but very boring and unenjoyable. You are not buying Creed, you are buying 2 command points. Thats the only thing you have to think about.

For orders, normal commanders are better.

Two commanders are 60 points. They have 4 orders a nd can be at two places (supporting larger field of battle). One order from commander is worth 15 points...so for 3 orders the cost is 45 points. Creed is 70 points. You are paying 25 points for 2 command points AND the disadvantage of shorter orders range (in comparison to two separate commanders on two places).

Its ok, but its...boring. Creed is in no way special, I was rather dissappointed when i saw his rules...

Anyone have thoughts on AA for Guard? Specifically against tough flyers like Storm Ravens, Stormwolfs?

Valks may as well be carrying slingshots

Vendettas are not going to happen at 240 pts hitting on 5s, unless you hover T1

Hydras are better suited to T6 and under/non hard-to-hit

Flamers cost more and are less effective in 8th. Save two points and take grenade launchers, which are better in so many ways.

 More Dakka wrote:
Anyone have thoughts on AA for Guard? Specifically against tough flyers like Storm Ravens, Stormwolfs?

Not really. The FW fliers and the Praetor are more effective per unit, but also much more expensive costing at least 200 points for the cheapest option. The Manticore Platform with Sky Eagle is lackluster. You'd probably be better served looking outside of AM at least if you're not happy with the Hydra.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CplPunishment wrote:
Flamers cost more and are less effective in 8th. Save two points and take grenade launchers, which are better in so many ways.

Spend the same amount of points and get Plasma Guns which are even better than the terrible Grenade Launcher.

 More Dakka wrote:
Anyone have thoughts on AA for Guard? Specifically against tough flyers like Storm Ravens, Stormwolfs?

Valks may as well be carrying slingshots

Vendettas are not going to happen at 240 pts hitting on 5s, unless you hover T1

Hydras are better suited to T6 and under/non hard-to-hit

Call me crazy, but I'm going to playtest basilisks against Flyers. My new policy is 4 basilisks every game anyhow. I know it sounds strange, but they roll 2d6 and pick the highest for determining shots, S9 AP-2 Dd3. They have range to the entire board, no more min range or firing arc, and don't have to see their target. All that for 108pts. Bonus: Master of Ordnance lets nearby artillery reroll 1s against targets more than 36" away.

I threw some dice at taking them down with Manticores with Harker helping them, it only sorta works because of the 5s to hit, typically I'm getting 3-4 hits, maybe 2-3 wounds, and they're 14W models. I can throw my whole army into one basically for a guaranteed kill, but I'm typically seeing 3 of them, with Scion back up so I can't kill enough fast enough to eliminate ground forces T1

 Aenarian wrote:

 More Dakka wrote:
Anyone have thoughts on AA for Guard? Specifically against tough flyers like Storm Ravens, Stormwolfs?

Not really. The FW fliers and the Praetor are more effective per unit, but also much more expensive costing at least 200 points for the cheapest option. The Manticore Platform with Sky Eagle is lackluster. You'd probably be better served looking outside of AM at least if you're not happy with the Hydra.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CplPunishment wrote:
Flamers cost more and are less effective in 8th. Save two points and take grenade launchers, which are better in so many ways.

Spend the same amount of points and get Plasma Guns which are even better than the terrible Grenade Launcher.

I have the Preator. It under performs often. The SAM ammo type is D6 shots. And only a +1 to hit. You're almost always better to just use the anti armour rounds because you get 2D6.

For AA Im using the Thunderbolt with Skyfire missiles. Pretty cool model. With an Elysian officer of the fleet he can order priority target and give it re'rolling 1's.

Hydras are good. But generally that's what your enemy is going to go for first. (HVT and all that)

Well yes, I stated that it was only more effective per unit, although I guess I should have written per model. A Praetor will most likely outperform a Hydra, but cost about 3x as much. I would never recommend it as a pure AA choice. The aircraft are better choices when going purely against air, but also pretty expensive, with the Thunderbolt being 280 points. It deals about as much damage as 2 Hydras, but costs a little more.

In all honesty, the Hydra is probably the best answer to flying enemies we have, with the Thunderbolt being a close second (and having a bit more flexibility). If you want better answers you will have to find them outside of the Astra Militarum.

 Aenarian wrote:

 More Dakka wrote:
Anyone have thoughts on AA for Guard? Specifically against tough flyers like Storm Ravens, Stormwolfs?

Not really. The FW fliers and the Praetor are more effective per unit, but also much more expensive costing at least 200 points for the cheapest option. The Manticore Platform with Sky Eagle is lackluster. You'd probably be better served looking outside of AM at least if you're not happy with the Hydra.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CplPunishment wrote:
Flamers cost more and are less effective in 8th. Save two points and take grenade launchers, which are better in so many ways.

Spend the same amount of points and get Plasma Guns which are even better than the terrible Grenade Launcher.

Grenade Launchers are actually worth their points now, and are better than plasma against infantry hordes.
Plasma is by far the most bang for its buck, I'll give you that. All my plasma goes into Veterans now, because it is more effective there. 3+ to hit (rerolling 1s because Harker is useful now!) And my company commander buffs both squads to reroll 1s to wound. If you can spare the points, a lascannon team will buff their damage output. BONUS: Commander, Harker and 2 Vet squads give you 1 CP (vanguard).

CplPunishment wrote:

Grenade Launchers are actually worth their points now, and are better than plasma against infantry hordes.

I'm curious, but in what way do you actually have a lot of problems versus infantry hordes? A FRFSRF lasgun is better than a grenade launcher within 12" and you have heaps of those. At 24", you go from 9 lasguns to 11.5 (using averages), at 12" you go from 18 to 19,5. Hell, if you're using FRFSRF you go from 36 to 35,5 when picking a GL. You could also get mortar teams for the same cost, and they are strictly superior to the frag grenade if you're desperate for anti-horde weapons, while plasma gun or meltagun will let you deal with enemies you can't normally hurt well, while only being a little worse than the grenade launcher in the worst case scenario.

I don't doubt that a grenade launcher could be worth its points in a very specific scenario, namely when I want to purely deal with hordes T3 hordes and don't expect to face anything else, or very light vehicles for the krak grenades. But I have never come across a scenario where this small increase against these kinds of targets ever mattered enough to take the opportunity cost of not taking a meltagun or plasma gun for the vehicles or heavy infantry I expect to face.

 Aenarian wrote:
Well yes, I stated that it was only more effective per unit, although I guess I should have written per model. A Praetor will most likely outperform a Hydra, but cost about 3x as much. I would never recommend it as a pure AA choice. The aircraft are better choices when going purely against air, but also pretty expensive, with the Thunderbolt being 280 points. It deals about as much damage as 2 Hydras, but costs a little more.

In all honesty, the Hydra is probably the best answer to flying enemies we have, with the Thunderbolt being a close second (and having a bit more flexibility). If you want better answers you will have to find them outside of the Astra Militarum.

Oh for sure! I didn't mean to make it sound like I was arguing. Only providing my anecdotal evidence.

Still a cool and fun model.

I know this may seem like an odd question;

How much better is the Hydra Vs. a Wyvern at taking down a flyer (/vehicle). Because I'm looking at cost/benefits, the loss of the additional infantry slaying firepower vs. the AA / AV