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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I already said BS4+ weapons are / should be cheaper than BS3+...?

Yes, but in theory the platforms that are BS3+ are more expensive to counteract this - e.g. tank commanders compared with normal russes. GW hasn't got all their points worked out perfectly anyway, but this is the general trend.

If they're doing their points right, then offensive output should be the same hits/per point invested (all other things being equal).

 DoomMouse wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I already said BS4+ weapons are / should be cheaper than BS3+...?

Yes, but in theory the platforms that are BS3+ are more expensive to counteract this - e.g. tank commanders compared with normal russes. GW hasn't got all their points worked out perfectly anyway, but this is the general trend.

If they're doing their points right, then offensive output should be the same hits/per point invested (all other things being equal).

I think sossen's point is that offensive output should not be the same hits/point because hits/point changes more drastically with penalties applied for models with a worse basic BS.

Yes, it is a disadvantage, but on the other hand, things with lower BS do better in overwatch, so there is that to counteract it.

What do you guys put inside your Valkyries?
Bullgryns? Melta-Vets?

I was just going to ask how everybody feels about Bullgryn. I've been running 5 of them with Yarrick and they put out some serious hurt.

 Stus67 wrote:
I was just going to ask how everybody feels about Bullgryn. I've been running 5 of them with Yarrick and they put out some serious hurt.

I've only used them once, but they did very well. Unfortunately a hellbrute got a charge off on them and smooshed them.

I find its important to mix shield types, so you can take an invuln save if something with heavy AP hits you. A ministorum priest is also an awesome helper character.

I really enjoy them. Cram 4 in a 2 H flamer chimera. When they pop out let the chimera charge and eat overwatch. Then charge bullgryn in.

So it hasnt been brought up much lately, what're everyones thoughts on the Taurox? Im taking 3 primes to a GT this weekend, along with an Astropath to help their Gatlings ignore cover when shooting at all those units that try to get in my face. Only got to use them in one test game where they were excellent but what has everyone else found with them?

 jifel wrote:
So it hasnt been brought up much lately, what're everyones thoughts on the Taurox? Im taking 3 primes to a GT this weekend, along with an Astropath to help their Gatlings ignore cover when shooting at all those units that try to get in my face. Only got to use them in one test game where they were excellent but what has everyone else found with them?

On paper they look awsome have not tried them in game yet (I'm building a list with round 6 in ) so I hope there good

Let's talk about Mech Guard:

I know 8th edition has so far been favoring large Infantry forces. I just really like the idea of a mechanised force which is hitting hard and fast also I am not playing to win any major tournaments, I just wanna have a fighting chance, playing against my opponents

- So what are your experiences using Mech Guard?

- what units did you use and how did they perform?

- How much mechanised Infantry should I be aiming for in a 2000 points game? (Infantry, Vets and Scions)

- What about flyer support? (Especially the Valkyrie and/or the Vulture)

 lash92 wrote:
Let's talk about Mech Guard:

I know 8th edition has so far been favoring large Infantry forces. I just really like the idea of a mechanised force which is hitting hard and fast also I am not playing to win any major tournaments, I just wanna have a fighting chance, playing against my opponents

- So what are your experiences using Mech Guard?

- what units did you use and how did they perform?

- How much mechanised Infantry should I be aiming for in a 2000 points game? (Infantry, Vets and Scions)

- What about flyer support? (Especially the Valkyrie and/or the Vulture)

Transports are too expensive for the Guard right now. BS 5+ on the move hurts them, plus loss of firing points.
That being said....

CHIMERA: hull and turret heavy bolter plus storm bolter beats heavy bolter/multilaser combo for same price.
Alternatively, spend more points on dual heavy flamers to mitigate movement penalty and punish assaults. Add a storm bolter for 2pts.

VALKYRIE: these get expensive fast. I would keep it focused on the anti-infantry role. A high volume of shots will get more mileage from a decreased ballistic skill. Load them with troops geared for harder targets. Vets, bullgryns, command squads etc. Send priests with combat troops, officers with shooty troops and astropaths with anything.

Not a comprehensive analysis by any means, but a few of my thoughts.

Vendetta is the better flyer transport, mostly because with all the lasguns, heavy bolters, heavy stubbers, and storm bolters you'll have plenty of anti-infantry on the ground. The list will be hurting for AT and the vendetta will provide that. You can probably only afford 1, 2 is a stretch, but it will pop vehicles nicely. Prioritize heavy (ie T8) vehicles, leave T7 to the plasma until you run out of other targets. It is purely optional though. Good, but not central to the build.

In terms of ground transports, this is mostly my opinion but Taurox Prime > Chimera > Taurox.

The TPrime is locked to tempestus of course, so for Guard I'd go with chimeras despite the beating they took from the nerf bat. Because the regular taurox doesn't have the BS4+ or mini-punisher that make the TPrime so good, being stuck with an expensive twin autocannon instead (autocannons are, IMO, a tiny bit overpriced at 15 points right now).

Put plasma guns on everyone that can take them, roll mostly infantry squads with some plasma command squads in the mix. Take heavy bolters for the heavy weapons in the infantry squad, they're cheap and can mitigate the movement penalty slightly with volume of fire. Remember that the guys manning the heavy weapon still have their lasguns.

All the chimeras should be rocking heavy bolters, multilaser just isn't worth the extra 2 points. Use those 2 points to put storm bolters on everything instead, they share a range bracket with the lasgun arrays, don't have a movement penalty, and fire 4 shots up close.

Make sure you have enough officers to order everyone. Go light on commissars, maybe 1 per 4 infantry squads. A squad that needs to get blammed will probably only have 2-3 models left anyway so commissars don't do much for this list, but mitigating bad RNG and/or keeping a lone surviving HB team alive one more round can be convenient.

Send infantry after infantry, send command squads after vehicles. Use HBs or split-fire the infantry plasma guns if a vehicle needs a couple more wounds chipped off.

You'll need to wait a turn before disembarking (except airborne troops, they can grav-chute to disembark on first turn), but each chimera firing two HBs, six lasguns, and a storm bolter should help pass the time. Once disembarked, vehicles should park and turn themselves into turrets as much as possible. Especially the vendetta if you brought one, you want those lascannons hitting on 4+.

Infantry squads FRFSRF and fire their plasma guns on normal mode. Command squads use Aim and overcharge their plasma.

If melee happens, you might be able to fall back and embark in the chimera. I don't have the book with me right now so someone will have to check, but if you get within 3" I think you can embark, and then the chimera didn't fall back so it can use the lasgun arrays. Seems legit in theory anyway.

Otherwise, the squad that fell back should use Get Back in the Fight so they can still shoot a little bit.

Also, if you end up with a sole survivor from a squad, put him back in a chimera. He can use the lasgun arrays to fire six lasguns, then when it dies he can defiantly hop out and shoot whoever killed his ride.

Thank to both of you, for your feedback
I will definitely take a look at the Vendetta, because AT is really kind of a problem. Also putting in two Command Squads with Melter should be quite a heavy punch.

I am also planing to take a small amout of Scions, so no problem with the Taurox Prime.

 ross-128 wrote:


Put plasma guns on everyone that can take them, roll mostly infantry squads with some plasma command squads in the mix. Take heavy bolters for the heavy weapons in the infantry squad, they're cheap and can mitigate the movement penalty slightly with volume of fire. Remember that the guys manning the heavy weapon still have their lasguns.

So you are talking about the "normal" Infantry squad not Vets?


How do I deal with enemies who want to (deepstrike and) charge my vehicles, for example my Leman Russes (I know the Russ isn´t so good anymore, but it´s just my favorite modell)?
Should I just accept it and fall back in the next turn and kill it with my other stuff? Or shall I grab some heavy Flamers?
I was also considering to add some Scout Sentinels to create a anti-deepstriking-zone but I´m not quite sure if it´s worth the points.

Also how many bodies do I need for a 2000 point game? About 50? (including some Drop-Scions)

Scout Sentinels 100% worth it, heck also worth the extra 7 pts to put HF on them, 3 is 150ish points and you can easily block up an approx 63" wide zone to keep deep striking units out of (9" on either side of a 3" wide base= 21" zone per Sentinel)

You'd need about 50-60 bodies for a mechanized list (I'd go no less than 3 Infantry squads in Chimeras, 2-3 min Scions and whatever CMD squads you want to fit in there).

Veterans are sadly not troops anymore, though if you wanted to do that you could probably cram everything into two vanguard detachments. It's a bit more risky now that they actually have to get out of the chimeras to shoot. Veterans are a lot killier, what with their ability to take three plasma, a heavy bolter, and a heavy flamer, but loading up on all that gear makes them very expensive.

A trio of flamer scout sentinels definitely makes a good deepstrike deterrent for that kind of list, since unlike conscripts they'll leave a lot of board open to move your transports up while still projecting a huge bubble of denial.

If something does charge the transports, as long as you have some open board within 3" you can disembark the passengers then fall back. The passengers didn't fall back, so they can still shoot.

Some helpful tips on running a mech list

So I wrote a test list trying to incorporate your tipps, let me know what you think


#HQ
2x Company Commander (Boltgun)
Tempestor Prime (Plasma Pistol)
Pask (Battlecanon, Lascanon, 2x Heavy Bolter)

#Troops
3x Infantry Squad (Boltgun, Heavy Bolter, Plasma and Vox)
Scions (total 9 men, 8x Hotshot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol)

#Elite
Command Squad (4x Melter)
Commissar (Boltgun)
Special Weapons Squad (Demo Charge, 2x Flamer)
Tempestus Command Squad (4x Plasma)
Veterans (Lascanon, 3x Plasma, Plasma Pistol, Vox)

#Fast Attack
3x Scout Sentinel (Heavy Flamer)

#Heavy Support
Leman Russ (Battle Canon, 3x Heavy Bolter)

#Flyer
Vendetta Gunship (3x Twin Lascanon, Twin Heavy Bolter)

#Dedicated Transport
4x Chimera (2x Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter)
Taurox Prime (2x Hotshot Volley Gun, Gatling Canon)

Total 1986 points, so 14 points for some gimmicks.

Idea:
- Infantry Squads and Veterans go inside the Chimeras and are the main part of my army
- Scions Squad + Tempestor Prime goes inside the Taurox Prime and is there to unleash some FRFSRF with their Hotshot Lasguns
- Scion Command Squad gets dropped
- Command and Special Weapon Squad get dropped of by the Vendetta as a suicide AT unit
- Pask + Leman Russ provide fire support / distraction
- Sentinels deny deepstrike

 lash92 wrote:
So I wrote a test list trying to incorporate your tipps, let me know what you think


#HQ
2x Company Commander (Boltgun)
Tempestor Prime (Plasma Pistol)
Pask (Battlecanon, Lascanon, 2x Heavy Bolter)

#Troops
3x Infantry Squad (Boltgun, Heavy Bolter, Plasma and Vox)
Scions (total 9 men, 8x Hotshot Lasguns, Plasma Pistol)

#Elite
Command Squad (4x Melter)
Commissar (Boltgun)
Special Weapons Squad (Demo Charge, 2x Flamer)
Tempestus Command Squad (4x Plasma)
Veterans (Lascanon, 3x Plasma, Plasma Pistol, Vox)

#Fast Attack
3x Scout Sentinel (Heavy Flamer)

#Heavy Support
Leman Russ (Battle Canon, 3x Heavy Bolter)

#Flyer
Vendetta Gunship (3x Twin Lascanon, Twin Heavy Bolter)

#Dedicated Transport
4x Chimera (2x Heavy Bolter, Storm Bolter)
Taurox Prime (2x Hotshot Volley Gun, Gatling Canon)

Total 1986 points, so 14 points for some gimmicks.

Idea:
- Infantry Squads and Veterans go inside the Chimeras and are the main part of my army
- Scions Squad + Tempestor Prime goes inside the Taurox Prime and is there to unleash some FRFSRF with their Hotshot Lasguns
- Scion Command Squad gets dropped
- Command and Special Weapon Squad get dropped of by the Vendetta as a suicide AT unit
- Pask + Leman Russ provide fire support / distraction
- Sentinels deny deepstrike

I like every thing apart from the russe myself I just don't think they do enough for there points but it's your list let us know how they get on for you ?

I know that the Russes aren´t considered to be very good, but it´s just my favorite modell. They were the reason I started with the Guard

Sure I let you know, but this will take approximately 2 months. I just started collecting in May this year and I still got lots of stuff to paint.
I just needed to expand my collection and wanted to do this in a efficient way, so I asked for advice for a Mech list.

 lash92 wrote:
I know that the Russes aren´t considered to be very good, but it´s just my favorite modell. They were the reason I started with the Guard

Sure I let you know, but this will take approximately 2 months. I just started collecting in May this year and I still got lots of stuff to paint.
I just needed to expand my collection and wanted to do this in a efficient way, so I asked for advice for a Mech list.

With any luck they'll get a cost decrease when the new Guard codex.

Lash I would give the tempestor prime a command rod instead of a pistol so he can order the scions and the command squad.

Something I've been pondering is the idea of an MSU guard list.

Now, I know that, with the removal of Platoons, IG is already going to be MSU to some extent. However, I was thinking in terms of maximising that aspect (so no Conscripts).

Ideally, it would also have more mobility, if only in the form of Scions.

Any thoughts on this sort of list?

I've designed a couple of lists with exactly that in mind. I still think it's got pretty brutal competitive potential! Here was my take on MSU guard. It's arranged in TWO brigades for the casual 21 command points...

3 Company commanders 90pts
3 primaris psykers 120pts

3 Commissars 93pts
5 astropaths with laspistols 75pts

6 infantry squads with lascannon + bolter 366pts
6 Infantry squads with plasma gun and bolter 288pts
2 scion squads (each with 2 plasma guns) 124pts

6 Rough rider squads (each with 2 plasma guns) 360pts

8 Heavy weapons teams (each with 2 mortars and a lascannon) 336pts
4 heavy weapons teams with 3 heavy bolters 144pts

32 MSU, and over 200 infantry (and mostly fairly good quality infantry), plus 10 characters and a bunch of mortal wound smite spam I'm looking forward to when I finally have my rough riders painted up to try out the double brigade!

basedgigi wrote:
Lash I would give the tempestor prime a command rod instead of a pistol so he can order the scions and the command squad.

Agreed. You won't always need it, but those times you do, you'll be thankful for it.

 DoomMouse wrote:
I've designed a couple of lists with exactly that in mind. I still think it's got pretty brutal competitive potential! Here was my take on MSU guard. It's arranged in TWO brigades for the casual 21 command points...

3 Company commanders 90pts
3 primaris psykers 120pts

3 Commissars 93pts
5 astropaths with laspistols 75pts

6 infantry squads with lascannon + bolter 366pts
6 Infantry squads with plasma gun and bolter 288pts
2 scion squads (each with 2 plasma guns) 124pts

6 Rough rider squads (each with 2 plasma guns) 360pts

8 Heavy weapons teams (each with 2 mortars and a lascannon) 336pts
4 heavy weapons teams with 3 heavy bolters 144pts

32 MSU, and over 200 infantry (and mostly fairly good quality infantry), plus 10 characters and a bunch of mortal wound smite spam I'm looking forward to when I finally have my rough riders painted up to try out the double brigade!

I like it, but what is your reason for taking Bolters over Plasma Pistols on the Srgts? I'm debating which way I want to go with mine right now. Currently I've been running PPs on them which work well, but I've been running Bolters on my Company Commanders which have also impressed me.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

I like it, but what is your reason for taking Bolters over Plasma Pistols on the Srgts? I'm debating which way I want to go with mine right now. Currently I've been running PPs on them which work well, but I've been running Bolters on my Company Commanders which have also impressed me.

Can't speak for him, but for me, it's cheaper and has better range compatibility with the rest of the squad

I've been running a mechanized list with my Steel Legion. It looks roughly like this:

2 Officers
3 Infantry Squads
1 Command Squad with special weapons
1 Master of Ordinance
1 Tank Commander in a standard Leman Russ
2 Leman Russ (standard again)
3 Basilisks
1 Hellhound
3 Chimera with Autocannon, Heavy Bolter
1 Chimera with two Heavy flamers

The last 200-odd points can be spent on a couple of different things, like Sentinels with lascannon, another Hellhound, vehicle weapon upgrades, more infantry, or a handful of pskyers. I can also drop a tank and take some Storm troopers and a Storm trooper officer.

My default plan is to deploy my army in concentric circles (or half circles). The center is the Basilisks and the MoO, around them is the Leman Russes, then autocannon Chimeras and some infantry, and finally the Hellhound and the flamer-armed Chimeras. The inner rings shoot, shoot, and shoot some more, and the outer rings protect the inner rings. My infantry and Chimeras will move aggressively to pin the enemy back and force them to 'deep strike' or charge in a fair distance away from my firebase. The outermost ring of vehicles cruises around, captures objectives, and puts pressure on vulnerable enemy troops. If I take Storm Troopers they usually gravchute in to support my offensive troops.

The effect of this is to pressure the enemy on a wide front, which forces him to waste his energy attacking troops that don't matter and surrender board space and objectives to my tanks. I target fast enemy units first, to further inhibit the enemy's ability to control the temp of engagement, and then concentrate my fire on whatever can threaten my Basilisks. There are never enough guns to kill everything you need to kill, which is fine because you can just through guardsmen and cheap tanks at the things you can't kill in order to distract it.

I really like playing with all of the vehicles and troops a proper Guard army can bring to the table. They open up your strategic options and make other armies feel positively limiting in comparison.

 DoomMouse wrote:
I've designed a couple of lists with exactly that in mind. I still think it's got pretty brutal competitive potential! Here was my take on MSU guard. It's arranged in TWO brigades for the casual 21 command points...

3 Company commanders 90pts
3 primaris psykers 120pts

3 Commissars 93pts
5 astropaths with laspistols 75pts

6 infantry squads with lascannon + bolter 366pts
6 Infantry squads with plasma gun and bolter 288pts
2 scion squads (each with 2 plasma guns) 124pts

6 Rough rider squads (each with 2 plasma guns) 360pts

8 Heavy weapons teams (each with 2 mortars and a lascannon) 336pts
4 heavy weapons teams with 3 heavy bolters 144pts

32 MSU, and over 200 infantry (and mostly fairly good quality infantry), plus 10 characters and a bunch of mortal wound smite spam I'm looking forward to when I finally have my rough riders painted up to try out the double brigade!

Nice. Is that 2000pts?

RogueApiary wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

I like it, but what is your reason for taking Bolters over Plasma Pistols on the Srgts? I'm debating which way I want to go with mine right now. Currently I've been running PPs on them which work well, but I've been running Bolters on my Company Commanders which have also impressed me.

Can't speak for him, but for me, it's cheaper and has better range compatibility with the rest of the squad

Yeah I agree really. I've got nothing against the plasma pistol, just feel that most of the time my guys won't be within 12" range. It also doesn't feel clever when you overcharge and kill the guy with the extra LD... Bolters definitely feel worth it over the laspistol for a single point.

I might have to start running bolters on the commanders and commissars myself - the only reason I haven't so far is that I don't want to distract myself from their primary purpose - supporting squads and staying alive!

vipoid wrote:

 DoomMouse wrote:
I've designed a couple of lists with exactly that in mind. I still think it's got pretty brutal competitive potential! Here was my take on MSU guard. It's arranged in TWO brigades for the casual 21 command points...

3 Company commanders 90pts
3 primaris psykers 120pts

3 Commissars 93pts
5 astropaths with laspistols 75pts

6 infantry squads with lascannon + bolter 366pts
6 Infantry squads with plasma gun and bolter 288pts
2 scion squads (each with 2 plasma guns) 124pts

6 Rough rider squads (each with 2 plasma guns) 360pts

8 Heavy weapons teams (each with 2 mortars and a lascannon) 336pts
4 heavy weapons teams with 3 heavy bolters 144pts

32 MSU, and over 200 infantry (and mostly fairly good quality infantry), plus 10 characters and a bunch of mortal wound smite spam I'm looking forward to when I finally have my rough riders painted up to try out the double brigade!

Nice. Is that 2000pts?

It is! It's pretty scary on what guard can achieve right now... I'm also looking forward to when we get our own stratagems to utilise these tasty CPs better

 Saber wrote:
I've been running a mechanized list with my Steel Legion. It looks roughly like this:

2 Officers
3 Infantry Squads
1 Command Squad with special weapons
1 Master of Ordinance
1 Tank Commander in a standard Leman Russ
2 Leman Russ (standard again)
3 Basilisks
1 Hellhound
3 Chimera with Autocannon, Heavy Bolter
1 Chimera with two Heavy flamers

The last 200-odd points can be spent on a couple of different things, like Sentinels with lascannon, another Hellhound, vehicle weapon upgrades, more infantry, or a handful of pskyers. I can also drop a tank and take some Storm troopers and a Storm trooper officer.

My default plan is to deploy my army in concentric circles (or half circles). The center is the Basilisks and the MoO, around them is the Leman Russes, then autocannon Chimeras and some infantry, and finally the Hellhound and the flamer-armed Chimeras. The inner rings shoot, shoot, and shoot some more, and the outer rings protect the inner rings. My infantry and Chimeras will move aggressively to pin the enemy back and force them to 'deep strike' or charge in a fair distance away from my firebase. The outermost ring of vehicles cruises around, captures objectives, and puts pressure on vulnerable enemy troops. If I take Storm Troopers they usually gravchute in to support my offensive troops.

The effect of this is to pressure the enemy on a wide front, which forces him to waste his energy attacking troops that don't matter and surrender board space and objectives to my tanks. I target fast enemy units first, to further inhibit the enemy's ability to control the temp of engagement, and then concentrate my fire on whatever can threaten my Basilisks. There are never enough guns to kill everything you need to kill, which is fine because you can just through guardsmen and cheap tanks at the things you can't kill in order to distract it.

I really like playing with all of the vehicles and troops a proper Guard army can bring to the table. They open up your strategic options and make other armies feel positively limiting in comparison.

I really like the concept behind your army. How did your games go so far?
I can imagine that the enemy AT will be really struggling to prioritise the right targets.