Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?

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**Otto von Bludd**

Saber wrote:
I've been running a mechanized list with my Steel Legion. It looks roughly like this:

2 Officers
3 Infantry Squads
1 Command Squad with special weapons
1 Master of Ordinance
1 Tank Commander in a standard Leman Russ
2 Leman Russ (standard again)
3 Basilisks
1 Hellhound
3 Chimera with Autocannon, Heavy Bolter
1 Chimera with two Heavy flamers

The last 200-odd points can be spent on a couple of different things, like Sentinels with lascannon, another Hellhound, vehicle weapon upgrades, more infantry, or a handful of pskyers. I can also drop a tank and take some Storm troopers and a Storm trooper officer.

My default plan is to deploy my army in concentric circles (or half circles). The center is the Basilisks and the MoO, around them is the Leman Russes, then autocannon Chimeras and some infantry, and finally the Hellhound and the flamer-armed Chimeras. The inner rings shoot, shoot, and shoot some more, and the outer rings protect the inner rings. My infantry and Chimeras will move aggressively to pin the enemy back and force them to 'deep strike' or charge in a fair distance away from my firebase. The outermost ring of vehicles cruises around, captures objectives, and puts pressure on vulnerable enemy troops. If I take Storm Troopers they usually gravchute in to support my offensive troops.

The effect of this is to pressure the enemy on a wide front, which forces him to waste his energy attacking troops that don't matter and surrender board space and objectives to my tanks. I target fast enemy units first, to further inhibit the enemy's ability to control the temp of engagement, and then concentrate my fire on whatever can threaten my Basilisks. There are never enough guns to kill everything you need to kill, which is fine because you can just through guardsmen and cheap tanks at the things you can't kill in order to distract it.

I really like playing with all of the vehicles and troops a proper Guard army can bring to the table. They open up your strategic options and make other armies feel positively limiting in comparison.

I really like the sound of this list, perhaps I'm too committed to running a Brigade.

**ThePorcupine**

What are people's opinions on hot-shot volley guns? Not on tauroxes, mind you, but on scions. I can't outfit every special weapon as plasma (plasma is very hard to come by), should I hold out for more plasma someday in the future or should I slap some volley guns in there? Are they not worth it? Are regular hot shot lasguns preferable over volley guns?

**vipoid**

ThePorcupine wrote:
What are people's opinions on hot-shot volley guns? Not on tauroxes, mind you, but on scions. I can't outfit every special weapon as plasma (plasma is very hard to come by), should I hold out for more plasma someday in the future or should I slap some volley guns in there? Are they not worth it? Are regular hot shot lasguns preferable over volley guns?

I'd also like to hear if Hot Shot Volley Guns are any good. If so, do you still Deep Strike them or do you have them start on the board (to try and avoid moving)?

Also, what about the other non-plasma weapons on Scions - is it ever worth taking Meltas or Flamers?

**Stus67**

meltas on scions are pretty hilarious if you have a target for them. even worse is if you drop them from a valkyrie for melta distance.

**RogueApiary**

ThePorcupine wrote:
What are people's opinions on hot-shot volley guns? Not on tauroxes, mind you, but on scions. I can't outfit every special weapon as plasma (plasma is very hard to come by), should I hold out for more plasma someday in the future or should I slap some volley guns in there? Are they not worth it? Are regular hot shot lasguns preferable over volley guns?

Check Ebay. Granted, it can run up to 4 dollars per plasma gun during crazy times, but if you're patient, you can get quite a few for cheaper. Get the marine ones and use the scion GL/Flamer arms to hold them

Volley guns I would say are fine, but it's a completely different target set. One that you may already have covered better elsewhere in your army. If you're mostly using Scions for vehicle work, I would use meltas once I ran out of plasma bits.

I would really like to try running 10man scions with 4 volley guns in the middle of my lines or sitting on a mid/rear objective some time. Maybe if I ever go with the all infantry 2k list I've been toying with.

**Otto von Bludd**

RogueApiary wrote:
ThePorcupine wrote:
What are people's opinions on hot-shot volley guns? Not on tauroxes, mind you, but on scions. I can't outfit every special weapon as plasma (plasma is very hard to come by), should I hold out for more plasma someday in the future or should I slap some volley guns in there? Are they not worth it? Are regular hot shot lasguns preferable over volley guns?

Check Ebay. Granted, it can run up to 4 dollars per plasma gun during crazy times, but if you're patient, you can get quite a few for cheaper. Get the marine ones and use the scion GL/Flamer arms to hold them

Volley guns I would say are fine, but it's a completely different target set. One that you may already have covered better elsewhere in your army. If you're mostly using Scions for vehicle work, I would use meltas once I ran out of plasma bits.

I would really like to try running 10man scions with 4 volley guns in the middle of my lines or sitting on a mid/rear objective some time. Maybe if I ever go with the all infantry 2k list I've been toying with.

I've had a 10man squad with 4 volley guns used against me; even though they were hitting on 4s after the deepstrike they totally shredded the squad they were shooting at with massive overkill. Granted, they were only shooting Guardsmen but I'm pretty sure they would have put down 10 marines just as easily with the amount of wounds they put on me, even deadlier when they hit on 3s.

**Polonius**

Volley guns have two big advantages: four shots, and 24" range. The problem is that they are heavy, so take a -1 to hit on the drop. They also don't get much from orders, although there is some synergy with FRF!SRF!. At S4, they're a 5+ against medium vehicles, so they can strip wounds on even too th targets in a pinch.

I would use them more like fire bases though, and actually deploy them. If you go second, they'll likely have range turn one.

Scions are so good, and so cheap, that they're worth taking just with volley guns.

**Unit1126PLL**

What would people bring to support a superheavy tank company? I have 3 Stormhammers and I like to run them at 2k (they're 1506 total) but don't really know what the rest of the 500 should be. I am thinking Trojan, Salamander, Atlas, and other stuff, but not sure really if it should be a Battalion with troops, or if I should bring like 1 more Techpriest and perhaps just run a Vanguard, or what.

A Battalion would be neat, for CP, and the cool troops stuff, but eh, not necessary and not exactly fluffy for a superheavy tank regiment.

**argonak**

ThePorcupine wrote:
What are people's opinions on hot-shot volley guns? Not on tauroxes, mind you, but on scions. I can't outfit every special weapon as plasma (plasma is very hard to come by), should I hold out for more plasma someday in the future or should I slap some volley guns in there? Are they not worth it? Are regular hot shot lasguns preferable over volley guns?

I used a squad of 10 scions with 4 HSVGs in my most recent game. They more than earned their points back against Thousand Sons, even with my poor choice of deployment. I didn't take advantage of their 24" range like I should have.

**ThePorcupine**

Polonius wrote:
The problem is that they are heavy, so take a -1 to hit on the drop. They also don't get much from orders, although there is some synergy with FRF!SRF!.

Do deep strikers count as having moved? What about disembarkers ?

And what synergy? I thought frfsrf didn't effect volley guns.

And plasma is ridiculously expensive on eBay. I've been checking for weeks.

**RogueApiary**

ThePorcupine wrote:
Polonius wrote:
The problem is that they are heavy, so take a -1 to hit on the drop. They also don't get much from orders, although there is some synergy with FRF!SRF!.

Do deep strikers count as having moved? What about disembarked?

And what synergy? I thought frfsrf didn't effect volley guns.

Yes, they count as having moved in both cases.

Same target profile. HSLG's will likely want to shoot the same things as HSVG's. Not really a huge deal with split fire being a thing, but I have had cases with plasma drop squads where the two HSLG shots are being used on something they effectively can't hurt.

**rhinoceraids**

Hot shots are good. Lots of times for troops in ruins. Deep strike out of them. You can usually pick a couple off.

Toss some squads in. Or just elysians. Cheap troop choices for those juicy command points. Now just to sit and wait for the codex.

**lash92**

ThePorcupine wrote:
What are people's opinions on hot-shot volley guns? Not on tauroxes, mind you, but on scions. I can't outfit every special weapon as plasma (plasma is very hard to come by), should I hold out for more plasma someday in the future or should I slap some volley guns in there? Are they not worth it? Are regular hot shot lasguns preferable over volley guns?

I really like them on Tempestus Command Squads: drop them in cover and you have a nice firesquad with a +3 save. I don't like them so much in normal squads, because the normal squad wants to get close, in rapidfire range.

For Plasma Guns check out Anvil industry's ion rifles.

**ThePorcupine**

lash92 wrote:
For Plasma Guns check out Anvil industry's ion rifles.

I'm afraid I'd get crucified at the local warhammer store for non-40k models/parts.

**lash92**

ThePorcupine wrote:
lash92 wrote:
For Plasma Guns check out Anvil industry's ion rifles.

I'm afraid I'd get crucified at the local warhammer store for non-40k models/parts.

Isn't there the rule if it's at least 50% GW it's okay?

Also you will still need to buy your Scions box because you need the other parts.
Furthermore the plasma comes only with one pose (the one with the raised arm) which will look really stupid on a command squad with 4 plasmas ^^

**vipoid**

Going back to MSU Guard, I've come up with this list:

Spoiler:

The Infantry stuff will most likely deploy in 2 groups to hold different areas of the table (each with 3 Infantry Squads, a CC, a Commissar and 2 HWSs). The MT stuff will probably all go into deep strike, arriving either to kill priority targets (in the case of the meltas and plasma), or going into ruins to harass targets at longer ranges and possibly hold objectives (in the case of the Hot Shot Volley Guns). The Sentinels can either be aggressive with their heavy flamers or else simply go after objectives or such. Celestine will probably stay with the bulk of my army early on, acting as a counter-assault unit. Later one she might be more aggressive.

One little thing I wasn't sure about - I could either have the current arrangement, with the Company Commanders, Commissars and Infantry Squad Sergeants having Bolters, or I could drop the Bolters and give both Commissars Plasma Pistols. Which do you think is best?

Otherwise, any other thoughts/suggestions on this list?

**Otto von Bludd**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
What would people bring to support a superheavy tank company? I have 3 Stormhammers and I like to run them at 2k (they're 1506 total) but don't really know what the rest of the 500 should be. I am thinking Trojan, Salamander, Atlas, and other stuff, but not sure really if it should be a Battalion with troops, or if I should bring like 1 more Techpriest and perhaps just run a Vanguard, or what.

A Battalion would be neat, for CP, and the cool troops stuff, but eh, not necessary and not exactly fluffy for a superheavy tank regiment.

I would probably take a bunch of un-squaded Heavy Flamer Scout Sentinels.

**Unit1126PLL**

Otto von Bludd wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
What would people bring to support a superheavy tank company? I have 3 Stormhammers and I like to run them at 2k (they're 1506 total) but don't really know what the rest of the 500 should be. I am thinking Trojan, Salamander, Atlas, and other stuff, but not sure really if it should be a Battalion with troops, or if I should bring like 1 more Techpriest and perhaps just run a Vanguard, or what.

A Battalion would be neat, for CP, and the cool troops stuff, but eh, not necessary and not exactly fluffy for a superheavy tank regiment.

I would probably take a bunch of un-squaded Heavy Flamer Scout Sentinels.

Oh? Can I ask why?

**lash92**

Because you can create a huge anti deepstrike zone. Just put one Sentinel on each side and on in front of your army and then scout move them.

**Unit1126PLL**

I'm not too worried about deep-strike. The sooner they are in close-combat with me, the more immune to most of their anti-tank weapons I am. Stormhammers hit pretty hard in melee and their weapons can still engage threatening targets.

**ross-128**

I would consider a salamander command tank.

Usually its +1 to hit buff is not too impressive because you can only apply it to a single vehicle (despite being a 6" bubble, it can only buff a single unit in that bubble, which with the new squadron mechnanic means a single model for vehicles). +1 to hit is great don't get me wrong, but just one vehicle can only do so much with it.

When that one vehicle is something like a stormlord or a shadowsword though, well that changes things.

There's also the trojan, if you want re-rolls instead of +1. Or you can bring both. They're each about 100 points with weapons, the salamander gets a heavy bolter and heavy flamer, trojan just gets a heavy bolter. Both have pintle slots of course.

I wouldn't bring enough for the whole company, likely too expensive, but with just one you can hide it behind its fatter friends and just drive it over to whichever baneblade you really want to get hits from.

**Unit1126PLL**

ross-128 wrote:
I would consider a salamander command tank.

Usually its +1 to hit buff is not too impressive because you can only apply it to a single vehicle (despite being a 6" bubble, it can only buff a single unit in that bubble, which with the new squadron mechnanic means a single model for vehicles). +1 to hit is great don't get me wrong, but just one vehicle can only do so much with it.

When that one vehicle is something like a stormlord or a shadowsword though, well that changes things.

There's also the trojan, if you want re-rolls instead of +1. Or you can bring both. They're each about 100 points with weapons, the salamander gets a heavy bolter and heavy flamer, trojan just gets a heavy bolter. Both have pintle slots of course.

I wouldn't bring enough for the whole company, likely too expensive, but with just one you can hide it behind its fatter friends and just drive it over to whichever baneblade you really want to get hits from.

Yes, I think I mentioned these in my original post. I have one Salamander command tank and one Trojan support vehicle, and would like to bring both. The question is, what should I do to bring them? Tech-priests to ride the Trojan, and an Atlas, for repairs in a Vanguard detachment? Troops to capture objectives and whatnot in a Battalion?

**ross-128**

A techpriest might be useful, especially if it can drag a damaged unit back above the degredation threshold for one more turn.

A big blob of conscripts would probably make a good distraction/objective taker, they'd give enemy anti-infantry weapons something unproductive to do other than fish for 6s on your tanks.

Their lasguns would also help counter enemy hordes, while their inability to take anything else wouldn't matter because the SHVs have everything else covered. The two polar extremes of the guard codex compliment each other pretty well.

Though it does depend on how much you can allocate for support. 100 conscripts with their officer and commissar will run a minimum of 361 points, so they're basically a baneblade made of infantry.

**Unit1126PLL**

ross-128 wrote:
A techpriest might be useful, especially if it can drag a damaged unit back above the degredation threshold for one more turn.

A big blob of conscripts would probably make a good distraction/objective taker, they'd give enemy anti-infantry weapons something unproductive to do other than fish for 6s on your tanks.

Their lasguns would also help counter enemy hordes, while their inability to take anything else wouldn't matter because the SHVs have everything else covered. The two polar extremes of the guard codex compliment each other pretty well.

Though it does depend on how much you can allocate for support. 100 conscripts with their officer and commissar will run a minimum of 361 points, so they're basically a baneblade made of infantry.

My Stormhammers, the way they're kitted, come out to 502 points each, so I've got 494 points left.

My issue with conscripts is 2-fold: I've found their slow speed to be of little utility; when they're not blocking the movement of my vehicles they're straining their little legs to keep up, not to mention put effective fire downrange.

**CakesPicasso**

Unit1126PLL wrote:

My issue with conscripts is 2-fold: I've found their slow speed to be of little utility; when they're not blocking the movement of my vehicles they're straining their little legs to keep up, not to mention put effective fire downrange.

Keep in mind that with orders Conscripts can move 12+2d6" per turn. Their speed will only be an issue if you need them to fire as well. And even then you can move+advance and still fire at their normal rate.

**Unit1126PLL**

CakesPicasso wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:

My issue with conscripts is 2-fold: I've found their slow speed to be of little utility; when they're not blocking the movement of my vehicles they're straining their little legs to keep up, not to mention put effective fire downrange.

Keep in mind that with orders Conscripts can move 12+2d6" per turn. Their speed will only be an issue if you need them to fire as well. And even then you can move+advance and still fire at their normal rate.

Ah, true, though I would have to run a Vanguard, and also figure out how to build conscript models in a week, lol. I have been thinking of bringing drop scions, to fill out a battalion and drop on objectives (since troops will have objective secured).

**ross-128**

Since you're not worried about melee and are wanting to move your vehicles up, you can deploy them in blocks instead of a screening line. 100 is not very many (by conscript standards) so it shouldn't clog the board too much, though you can run squads of 30-40 to save points and board space. They'll probably be in a patrol detachment with your salamander.

Use Forward for the Emperor to put some pep in their step if they aren't going to have a target after a normal move. If they don't have any targets they can reach in 9" of movement, use Move Move Move to reposition them or plop them on an objective. They weren't going to shoot anything that turn anyway. Just make sure to stretch the back of the formation if you roll high, to help the officers catch up. Obviously once they have a target they should switch to FRFSRF.

They're not going to single-handedly swing a 2k point game obviously, but they'll be a great distraction especially with the overblown reputation they've garnered recently. They're mostly there to make your opponent panic.

**Unit1126PLL**

ross-128 wrote:
Since you're not worried about melee and are wanting to move your vehicles up, you can deploy them in blocks instead of a screening line. 100 is not very many (by conscript standards) so it shouldn't clog the board too much, though you can run squads of 30-40 to save points and board space. They'll probably be in a patrol detachment with your salamander.

Use Forward for the Emperor to put some pep in their step if they aren't going to have a target after a normal move. If they don't have any targets they can reach in 9" of movement, use Move Move Move to reposition them or plop them on an objective. They weren't going to shoot anything that turn anyway. Just make sure to stretch the back of the formation if you roll high, to help the officers catch up. Obviously once they have a target they should switch to FRFSRF.

They're not going to single-handedly swing a 2k point game obviously, but they'll be a great distraction especially with the overblown reputation they've garnered recently. They're mostly there to make your opponent panic.

I can try, though I'd like to squeeze in both a Salamander and a Trojan, and the Salamander is an Elites choice, not an HQ.

**Saber**

lash92 wrote:
Saber wrote:
I've been running a mechanized list with my Steel Legion. It looks roughly like this:

2 Officers
3 Infantry Squads
1 Command Squad with special weapons
1 Master of Ordinance
1 Tank Commander in a standard Leman Russ
2 Leman Russ (standard again)
3 Basilisks
1 Hellhound
3 Chimera with Autocannon, Heavy Bolter
1 Chimera with two Heavy flamers

I really like the concept behind your army. How did your games go so far?
I can imagine that the enemy AT will be really struggling to prioritise the right targets.

I've had a fair amount of success. I usually win, and when I lose it's usually because of tactical mistakes and not because of the army. The only thing I've struggled against consistently is flyer-spam, due to the lack of accurate weapons.

The Basilisks are the core of the army - they churn out at least ten shots a turn and typically smash one target to pieces. The Leman Russes assist the Basilisks, and the infantry and Chimeras get in the way the enemy's attack. It's rare that the enemy is able to kill a Basilisk, much less two or three, as my Russes absorb more fire and my Chimeras usually offer themselves as more immediate targets. I've never come close to being tabled and I always have at least half a dozen vehicles on the board at the end, but my infantry usually suffer horribly and get annihilated as soon as they deploy from their transports. The main challenge is to avoid playing too passively, surrendering board position and objectives to the enemy. The Basilisks are never going to capture anything and the Leman Russes rarely get past midfield so projecting power can be difficult if you don't plan your moves out ahead of time.

**ross-128**

Hmm, true, if you want 2-3 elite picks a patrol won't cut it. So it would either be a vanguard with only one conscript squad (in the one troops slot), or three to four 20-30 man squads to unlock a battallion (which will require two officers anyway due to batallion minimums).

Or they can be separate detachments, but then you'll still have some random officer supervising the support tanks' vanguard detachment. So I think it would be better to use those two officers to get a batallion, and put them both to work commanding some infantry in addition to unlocking those tank slots.