Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?

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**stratigo**

gungo wrote:
Best codex this edition by far.....
It's so well done...
And with tyranids out soon I wonder how well GSC will become when attached with a astra militarum detachment.

I'm not sure a codex blatantly more powerful than others is well done.

**Blightstar**

Stus67 wrote:I was thinking with the Consolidate Squads stratagem and the Laurels of Command relic you can pull off some zany stuff with Scions.

Drop two ten-man squads with a prime equipped with the laurels. Combine the two scions squads into a single twenty-man squad.
Prime orders Take Aim! and with the Laurels on a 4+ can order Elimination Protocol at the same time.

That's 20 Scions with 8 Plasma guns and 2 plasma pistols re-rolling 1s to hit, rolling additional shots on 6s, and re-rolling all failed to wounds on vehicles/monsters.

boi

Doesnt work like that. Combined Squads only work on Infatry Squads aka the Troop unit, not any squad with Infantry-type.

This is going to cause a lot of confusion

DoomMouse wrote:Do rough riders still gain the regimental bonuses if you use the index version? I've just converted 30 of them armed with plasma

Sure. They do have the [regiment]. Just remember that orders (probably) still wont work on them since ordered unit needs to be Infantry-type.

**Dionysodorus**

DoomMouse wrote:
Do rough riders still gain the regimental bonuses if you use the index version? I've just converted 30 of them armed with plasma

The only doctrines that appear to buff Rough Riders are Cadia (re-roll 1s to hit when shooting if stationary) and Vostroya (+6" range for rapid fire weapons with at least 24" range).

**stratigo**

argonak wrote:
gungo wrote:
Plasmaguns are 15pnts on bs3 models, 12 for vets and still 7 pts on bs4.
Scions get another shot at halfrange on a 6+. Ironically this helps deepstrike plasmagun and not hot shot lasguns/melta.
They also have an order that allows them to reroll failed wound vs vehicles and monster creatures but that means no reroll 1s for plasma if you use it.

Baneblade variants all got huge buffs outside of regiment doctrines which further improve them. Price cut, d6 more shots, move and fire without penalty..... there is a new ogryn bodyguard that probably can eat wounds for tank characters. And pask which is already 2+ bs is Cadian which allows him to reroll 1 when he doesn't move.

Most infantry went down in price. Also combined squads allows you to almost never give up kill points because you can just keep combining squads for 1cp as long as you are near another infantry squad. I have no idea how they expect you to keep track of killpoints doing this unless each squad is marked different or you just don't get killpoints until the combined squad is gone.

Basilisks were good and now even better at -3ap.
Everyone was all hyped for catachan doctrine but thier order is kind of meh.. it allows you to reroll number of atks w flamers and ignore cover. Not extremely useful but ok on scout sentinels, I guess.

The best warlord trait gives you more cp and reroll 1 hit, wound, or saving throw per battle. I'm confused by this it's not per game or limited to the warlord so does this mean every single combat/shooting phase I can reroll 1 die?
3 new psychic powers with the best being -1 to hit a unit or maybe an 18in sniping psychic power that does a mortal wound on 2+, 3+, 4+, 5+, 6+.

You don't lose regimental doctrines with most AM add on units like commissars, bullgrysn, scions, priests, psykers and crusaders?

Marines pay 13 points. if scions pay 15 I'm crying foul.

The warlord trait reroll looks like one free use of the standard strategem to me in the whole game. The use of the term battle is a little unusual, but I think it just means game.

There's an oddity about advisors and auxilia, because its questionable whether that would apply to an MT regiment detachment based on the MT regiment wording.

weapon options are priced for the army, not consistently.

Scions get far more value out of their plasma than marines do. It's not even close.

**Stus67**

Blightstar wrote:
Stus67 wrote:I was thinking with the Consolidate Squads stratagem and the Laurels of Command relic you can pull off some zany stuff with Scions.

Drop two ten-man squads with a prime equipped with the laurels. Combine the two scions squads into a single twenty-man squad.
Prime orders Take Aim! and with the Laurels on a 4+ can order Elimination Protocol at the same time.

That's 20 Scions with 8 Plasma guns and 2 plasma pistols re-rolling 1s to hit, rolling additional shots on 6s, and re-rolling all failed to wounds on vehicles/monsters.

boi

Doesnt work like that. Combined Squads only work on Infatry Squads aka the Troop unit, not any squad with Infantry-type.

This is going to cause a lot of confusion

DoomMouse wrote:Do rough riders still gain the regimental bonuses if you use the index version? I've just converted 30 of them armed with plasma

Sure. They do have the [regiment]. Just remember that orders (probably) still wont work on them since ordered unit needs to be Infantry-type.

Ooh rip I was reading it as an infantry unit, not specifically the infantry squad.

**DarklyDreaming**

So now you can have a 9 Bullgryn unit with 2++ thanks to the stratagem + psychic powers, is that correct?

**Stus67**

DarklyDreaming wrote:
So now you can have a 9 Bullgryn unit with 2++ thanks to the stratagem + psychic powers, is that correct?

This is correct.

**DarklyDreaming**

Is not that a bit too much? Considering you can have a squad of 9 Ogres. Has that stratagem at least a limitation? Like you cant advance or charge...
Ofc a CSM can nullify the inv save, and a good mage can deny the witch... but isnt that a bit too much anyway?

**Wulfey**

The Scion extra shot on a 6+ doesn't work with the hot shot volley gun when you deepstrike since the -1 to moving applies to the heavy weapon. Which is super lame. Seems like scions are still railroaded into plasma even with the higher cost.

**Asmodios**

Does anyone know if you could combine 2 squads together (2 groups of Vallhallan guys) let's just say 2 10 man squads into a group of 20 then bring them back as a group of 20?

**Dionysodorus**

Asmodios wrote:
Does anyone know if you could combine 2 squads together (2 groups of Vallhallan guys) let's just say 2 10 man squads into a group of 20 then bring them back as a group of 20?

"Send in the Next Wave" specifically forbids you from using it on a squad that used "Combined Squads" earlier in the game. That's actually how we first learned that "Combined Squads" was a thing.

**SilverAlien**

Asmodios wrote:
Does anyone know if you could combine 2 squads together (2 groups of Vallhallan guys) let's just say 2 10 man squads into a group of 20 then bring them back as a group of 20?

The returning to the field stratagem specifically forbids combined squads from being targeted.

I'm honestly not sure what combined squads are good for, company commanders are so cheap do you really need to burn cp to maximize orders?

Wulfey wrote:
The Scion extra shot on a 6+ doesn't work with the hot shot volley gun when you deepstrike since the -1 to moving applies to the heavy weapon. Which is super lame. Seems like scions are still railroaded into plasma even with the higher cost.

Does the exact wording mean it works with the taurox prime? That'd be fairly great, if nothing else.

**Suzuteo**

argonak wrote:

Guard isn't strong in the competitive scene, scions and conscripts are. Two overpowered units and they're obvious from all the lists. Cheap double tapping plasma and bubble wrap. Most of the rsst of the guard units weren't pulling their weight, and some downright sucked.

I wouldn't be surprised if conscripts get nerfed dowh the line again, this nerf is a lovetap. I don't use them anyway.

What? Commissars (both the characters and in general), Conscripts, Scions, Elysians, and Basilisks are all Guard, and they're all really strong. It's not my fault that they overshadow the rest of your faction.

**Asmodios**

Dionysodorus wrote:
Asmodios wrote:
Does anyone know if you could combine 2 squads together (2 groups of Vallhallan guys) let's just say 2 10 man squads into a group of 20 then bring them back as a group of 20?

"Send in the Next Wave" specifically forbids you from using it on a squad that used "Combined Squads" earlier in the game. That's actually how we first learned that "Combined Squads" was a thing.

Thanks I assumed you couldn't but hadn't gotten a chance to read all the leaks just listens to a couple videos on them and hadn't herd it mentioned

**Colonel Cross**

So salt aside. What are people's thoughts on list building and Leman Russ options?

I've looked at building a fluffy TAC list, I prefer Catachans due to their fun character and they were my first army. But every time I go to build a list I gotta admit I lean towards Cadian rules. I feel I can play either because most of my army is a mash up of both kits and my own color scheme.

I'm excited to use Valkyries again. Since after they dump melta Scions or Bullgryn off they can now do things. I built mine with MRPs, heavy Bolters, and a Lascannon. So now I'm pretty happy with that

**daedalus**

I'm keeping Mordians. I'm flying air cav, and with me rides the demise of any character I deem even vaguely inconvenient.

**SilverAlien**

The issue I have with cadians is their doctrine can be mimicked fairly easy with special characters, harker for catachans and Yarrick for everyone. If you are using lots of mortar teams and want to be able to reroll all misses I could see cadia working well, but for tanks and artillery support catachan probably works better, as you can squeeze everything into the auras and get a powerful doctrine.

I think Valhallans are also underrated for Russ heavy armies, particularly the ones with shorter ranges. Keeping your 4+ bs till you are down to 3 wounds is nice.

What do people think about the basilisks vs the improved russes?

**Colonel Cross**

Very true. The issue with Catachan vs Cadian LRs is that Tank Commanders can only issue the reroll 1 order to other LRs. Whereas the Cadians have the ability to use Pask to issue reroll # of shots order to his tank commanders and if they stay still they reroll 1s anyway ...

Harker can barely fit my Manticore and Basilisk, mortars, and HWTs into his aura. No way can I fit LRs in there.

**Blightstar**

The cadian relic is actually very good. Once per battle and used start of the movement phase, gives Cadian units within 12" of the officer rerolls to 1's to-hit/wound until end of round. But against Chaos targets it turns into reroll all to-hit/wound rolls. It can be a nice little boost or massive punch to the face depending of your opponent.

**SilverAlien**

Colonel Cross wrote:
Very true. The issue with Catachan vs Cadian LRs is that Tank Commanders can only issue the reroll 1 order to other LRs. Whereas the Cadians have the ability to use Pask to issue reroll # of shots order to his tank commanders and if they stay still they reroll 1s anyway ...

Harker can barely fit my Manticore and Basilisk, mortars, and HWTs into his aura. No way can I fit LRs in there.

Oh that's right, I forgot they got the unique tank order. Hmmm... yeah they both end up playing similarly it seems. Catachan works better for artillery still, but with russes cadia can be more point efficient with Pask.

So mixed is probably the best choice. I mean pask+2 tank commanders will eat HQ slots anyways. Run them either in a cadian command detachment or battalion, then your artillery in a catachan battalion. Running the russes in a battalion is probably a bit better overall, but it might be less hassle with other players to toss them in the command detachment, so you aren't running infantry/conscripts from two different regiments with the same paint job. The russes all being their own separate detachment and regiment isn't that hard for your opponent to remember either.

**Stus67**

Wulfey wrote:
The Scion extra shot on a 6+ doesn't work with the hot shot volley gun when you deepstrike since the -1 to moving applies to the heavy weapon. Which is super lame. Seems like scions are still railroaded into plasma even with the higher cost.

I don't think this is how it would work.

**Colonel Cross**

SilverAlien wrote:
Colonel Cross wrote:
Very true. The issue with Catachan vs Cadian LRs is that Tank Commanders can only issue the reroll 1 order to other LRs. Whereas the Cadians have the ability to use Pask to issue reroll # of shots order to his tank commanders and if they stay still they reroll 1s anyway ...

Harker can barely fit my Manticore and Basilisk, mortars, and HWTs into his aura. No way can I fit LRs in there.

Oh that's right, I forgot they got the unique tank order. Hmmm... yeah they both end up playing similarly it seems. Catachan works better for artillery still, but with russes cadia can be more point efficient with Pask.

So mixed is probably the best choice. I mean pask+2 tank commanders will eat HQ slots anyways. Run them either in a cadian command detachment or battalion, then your artillery in a catachan battalion. Running the russes in a battalion is probably a bit better overall, but it might be less hassle with other players to toss them in the command detachment, so you aren't running infantry/conscripts from two different regiments with the same paint job. The russes all being their own separate detachment and regiment isn't that hard for your opponent to remember either.

I agree. I would run a Supreme Command Detachment with Pask + 2 HQ Russes and a Baneblade. Then I would run a BN with all my catachan infantry and artillery. Theoretically if I were attempting to build as strong a list as possible.

**Dionysodorus**

Stus67 wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
The Scion extra shot on a 6+ doesn't work with the hot shot volley gun when you deepstrike since the -1 to moving applies to the heavy weapon. Which is super lame. Seems like scions are still railroaded into plasma even with the higher cost.

I don't think this is how it would work.

Modifiers would definitely apply. If you're at -1 to hit, because for example you're firing a heavy weapon after deep striking, you can never roll a 6+. It's the same as if you were overcharging plasma and shooting at a flyer. On the other hand, if you can somehow get +1 to hit, you get a lot more out of the doctrine. With no modifiers, it's a 17% boost in damage. At +1 to hit it's a 33% boost in damage. I'm not sure if there's anything that can give a Scion unit +1 to hit, though.

**Tyr13**

Dionysodorus wrote:
Stus67 wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
The Scion extra shot on a 6+ doesn't work with the hot shot volley gun when you deepstrike since the -1 to moving applies to the heavy weapon. Which is super lame. Seems like scions are still railroaded into plasma even with the higher cost.

I don't think this is how it would work.

Modifiers would definitely apply. If you're at -1 to hit, because for example you're firing a heavy weapon after deep striking, you can never roll a 6+. It's the same as if you were overcharging plasma and shooting at a flyer. On the other hand, if you can somehow get +1 to hit, you get a lot more out of the doctrine. With no modifiers, it's a 17% boost in damage. At +1 to hit it's a 33% boost in damage. I'm not sure if there's anything that can give a Scion unit +1 to hit, though.

Maybe a searchlight? Not sure if theyre regiment specific though... (if they are, itd be a no-go...)

**Colonel Cross**

Yeah searchlights are regiment only.

**strepp**

Dionysodorus wrote:
Stus67 wrote:
Wulfey wrote:
The Scion extra shot on a 6+ doesn't work with the hot shot volley gun when you deepstrike since the -1 to moving applies to the heavy weapon. Which is super lame. Seems like scions are still railroaded into plasma even with the higher cost.

I don't think this is how it would work.

Modifiers would definitely apply. If you're at -1 to hit, because for example you're firing a heavy weapon after deep striking, you can never roll a 6+. It's the same as if you were overcharging plasma and shooting at a flyer. On the other hand, if you can somehow get +1 to hit, you get a lot more out of the doctrine. With no modifiers, it's a 17% boost in damage. At +1 to hit it's a 33% boost in damage. I'm not sure if there's anything that can give a Scion unit +1 to hit, though.

I see that the MT doctrine applies to any model (rather than a restriction to just infantry) with the <Militarum Tempestus> faction, and there is no restriction (unlike the Index) barring you making tanks, sentinels, etc., from the MT and able to benefit from the doctrine.

So, are there any interesting units that could benefit from this? Anything with a heavy weapon would need to remain stationary to avoid the -1 to hit penalty, but something like an Earthshaker cannon or even the humble Leman Russ Battle cannon could bring the hurt. Although in my mind, sentinels would be fluffier for the MT (fast and mobile) - extra autocannon shots, maybe? Also makes Hunter-Killer missiles a bit more valuable, too.

**Colonel Cross**

I could see the Taurox gatling cannon but come on, nobody needs to be adding MT regiment tag to anything outside of that list. Guard players are getting enough crap from the codex with legal abuse, no need to break the rules.

**SilverAlien**

Colonel Cross wrote:
I could see the Taurox gatling cannon but come on, nobody needs to be adding MT regiment tag to anything outside of that list. Guard players are getting enough crap from the codex with legal abuse, no need to break the rules.

Plus it'll just be faq'd anyways. Presumably at least. Not that it really seems much better than other tactics though.

Colonel Cross wrote:
I agree. I would run a Supreme Command Detachment with Pask + 2 HQ Russes and a Baneblade. Then I would run a BN with all my catachan infantry and artillery. Theoretically if I were attempting to build as strong a list as possible.

Yeah, that's always the thing about tactics threads, half the time this stuff ends up being massive overkill in any random friendly game and you have to deliberately weaken your list.

**ross-128**

The best use of the MT doctrine would probably be to just take a 10-man squad full of lasguns and run them right up to a target (maybe hopping out of a Taurox) to use FRFSRF, since they need to be within 9" to use it and they want to throw a lot of dice around to fish for 6s. Then they just let the AP-2 do all the heavy lifting.

If they really did remove the restriction on putting the MT keyword on non-MT models, then MT searchlights are potentially horrifying. For one thing, their ability to grant immunity to Gets Hot means a plasma command squad under the effect of a searchlight can use their Elimination Protocols order to re-roll all to-wound rolls instead of using the Aim order to prevent overheating. However, it also interacts with their doctrine: they'll be getting extra shots on 5 and 6 instead of just 6 while under the effect of a searchlight.

Also, because their doctrine isn't restricted to any particular weapon, anything that throws a lot of dice around could end up throwing even more dice at the problem.

**Colonel Cross**

SilverAlien wrote:
Colonel Cross wrote:
I could see the Taurox gatling cannon but come on, nobody needs to be adding MT regiment tag to anything outside of that list. Guard players are getting enough crap from the codex with legal abuse, no need to break the rules.

Plus it'll just be faq'd anyways. Presumably at least. Not that it really seems much better than other tactics though.

Colonel Cross wrote:
I agree. I would run a Supreme Command Detachment with Pask + 2 HQ Russes and a Baneblade. Then I would run a BN with all my catachan infantry and artillery. Theoretically if I were attempting to build as strong a list as possible.

Yeah, that's always the thing about tactics threads, half the time this stuff ends up being massive overkill in any random friendly game and you have to deliberately weaken your list.

And I was already having difficulty building a list which was fun for both myself and my opponent. It is really difficult to find that balance of having a chance at winning without just easily tabling my friends :/