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ThePorcupine wrote:

 Tyr13 wrote:
If you want more than one, you could take them in a Vanguard detachment. A primaris psyker as HQ, maybe another support elite (enginseer, priest, etc), and as manny assassins as you like, *and* you even get a CP out of it.

Edit: Seems Ive left this tab open for too long... ah well. What everyone else said, I guess. <.<

Still seems bad. My tank company list included one eversor assassin to deepstrike in and cause havoc. I don't own 3. Or any enginseers.

Take one Primaris and 2 Astropaths. They will be very useful and only cost like ~70pts.

 rhinoceraids wrote:
So if you add in forgeworld kits do you lose the doctrines? Or do they just not benefit from it.

Just forgeworld units in general? They benefit, as long as they are from the correct regiment.

The unique regiments would interfere with any other regiment but might get their own doctrine of choice in a pure regiment. It's unclear.

 rhinoceraids wrote:
So if you add in forgeworld kits do you lose the doctrines? Or do they just not benefit from it.

Who knows? Technically they don't, as the Imperial Armour Index only references Index 2 when saying that you can take stuff in an IG army. Of course, we know it is _supposed_ to be fine to just add them in. Expect a FW faq soon to fix this. And by soon, I mean anytime from now, 1 year from now or even never. They are small and sometimes just don't update things. Hell, they never updated the ABG list to work with the 6th ed codex, which sort of sucked.

Talk with your opponents really. Should be fine to use any FW stuff with <regiment> but Elysian/DKOK stuff gets trickier.

Any indications yet if Earthshaker carriages/batteries get the AP -3 from the Codex? I would assume that you would use the Earthshaker Cannon weapon profile from the Codex, but then again, Deathwatch still take 20 point power fists so I have no idea how this is intended to work.

RogueApiary wrote:
Any indications yet if Earthshaker carriages/batteries get the AP -3 from the Codex? I would assume that you would use the Earthshaker Cannon weapon profile from the Codex, but then again, Deathwatch still take 20 point power fists so I have no idea how this is intended to work.

Not until FW updates them. I had to use old points costs for the entire time I wanted to field my beast-hunter vanquisher. You can't just pick what you want. Unless your opponents are cool with it of course. The price of Forgeworld is slow updates. Well, besides the actual price.

 malamis wrote:
Had the pleasure of making one of our uber competitive players concede the end of turn 1 against mono cadia:

Bobby G; two units of custodes a plurality of deep strike GK paladins and some fabulous psychic & shooting mixed in somewhere for good measure. wiped fully 1/3 of the non-deep striking part of his army by going first, and 1/2 of it in overwatch.

Cadian innate reroll 1s and +1 to hit stratagem is phenomenal; 30 3+ reroll 1 to hit Heavy Bolters from a shadowsword is actually filth. Defensive gunners on quad sponson shadowsword made me roll 110 dice in my opponents phase, killing no less than 7 Paladins and spoiling every charge attempt.

That in 2k I had 3 SHTs, one with quad sponsons and 3 manticores made me realise that i'll need to play index without an appointment. Without even trying, IG can straight up suck the fun out of the game :|

Mobility is nice and all, but Cadian IG just flat out ignores the need for a combo system for artillery *and* superheavies by having it built in; combined with the overlapping fire rule to flat out delete units who look at you funny and I think hardcore cadian guard is going to win by tabling every time; they actually have enough high accuracy unit ending weapons that mobility and cover simply won't matter.

A list of 3 Superheavy tanks may not be a good indication of how the army is going to perform generally. Your triple superheavy list "sucking the fun out of the game" is different than IG sucking the fun out of the game. It just isn't a good list to draw sweeping conclusions from. That list would crush unprepared opponents just the same if you ran it out of the index.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

A list of 3 Superheavy tanks may not be a good indication of how the army is going to perform generally. Your triple superheavy list "sucking the fun out of the game" is different than IG sucking the fun out of the game. It just isn't a good list to draw sweeping conclusions from. That list would crush unprepared opponents just the same if you ran it out of the index.

Quite true, but, it is emblematic of what IG has; hard counters; extreme survivability and the best straight up high damage as well as possibly the best priced indirect fire weapons. With the numerous accuracy improving abilities that just got unleashed the in-game drawbacks to IG are, shall we say, somewhat slim?

Shadowswords really are pretty crazy. A barebones Shadowsword is now I think 406 points (with storm bolter). Its volcano cannon alone, and without considering doctrines or other buffs, expects 9.6 wounds on a Predator, 10.3 wounds on a Russ, 12.7 wounds on a Land Raider, 9.1 wounds on a Stormraven, 22.1 wounds on another Baneblade, and 16.2 on a Knight.

So against another superheavy it is coming pretty close to making its cost back in a single shot. It expects to make back well more than half its points against something like a Land Raider, and almost half against a tricked-out Russ or Stormraven or Predator. It's less efficient against these lighter vehicles mostly because it tends to overkill them.

It's harder to figure out which regiment to make them. Cadia seems like the obvious choice but you probably don't want to be sitting still -- you want to be charging forwards to maybe take advantage of Crush Them. The Catachan doctrine has a pretty negligible effect -- it boosts expected wounds vs a Land Raider by only about 6%. The Vostroyan stratagem is a lot better, since it improves expected wounds vs a LR by 14%. The Valhallan doctrine will have a similar impact to the Vostroyan stratagem some of the time, and will keep it more effective in CC for longer.

Did plasma pistols on scion sergeants go up in the codex, or just the plasma guns? Is a squad of 5 with 2x plasma guns, 2x hot shot lasguns, and a chainsword/plasma pistol Tempestor now 78 points instead of 66? Thanks to whoever got their book before me!

 MacPhail wrote:
Did plasma pistols on scion sergeants go up in the codex, or just the plasma guns? Is a squad of 5 with 2x plasma guns, 2x hot shot lasguns, and a chainsword/plasma pistol Tempestor now 78 points instead of 66? Thanks to whoever got their book before me!

Looks correct.

In other news: new plan! 3 Vanguard detachments with maxxed out Ogryn Bodyguards. That's 18 individual T5 6W 4++sv Ogryn for around 990 points. Each is a character of less than 10 wounds, so only the closest can be targeted. If one of them loses a wound, a different one can, on a 3+, suffer a mortal wound instead. So you can spread wounds around. Further, if the ogryn you want to eat the damage is in the back, you can potentially daisy chain the wound to him, albeit with the correct rolls of 3+ (Ogryn A took damage! Ogryn B intercepts, suffering a mortal wound! Ogryn B took damage! Ogryn C intercepts, suffering a mortal wound!). So, you have a formation of 108 wounds worth of models that lose their first model after suffering 91 damage. Bear in mind, that with the Celestine + Primaris Psyker + Strategem, the model you can shoot at is sporting a 2++, potentially. Or, you can just take 4++ saves across the block.

Needs FAQ. Sooner than later.

ryzouken wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
Did plasma pistols on scion sergeants go up in the codex, or just the plasma guns? Is a squad of 5 with 2x plasma guns, 2x hot shot lasguns, and a chainsword/plasma pistol Tempestor now 78 points instead of 66? Thanks to whoever got their book before me!

Looks correct.

In other news: new plan! 3 Vanguard detachments with maxxed out Ogryn Bodyguards. That's 18 individual T5 6W 4++sv Ogryn for around 990 points. Each is a character of less than 10 wounds, so only the closest can be targeted. If one of them loses a wound, a different one can, on a 3+, suffer a mortal wound instead. So you can spread wounds around. Further, if the ogryn you want to eat the damage is in the back, you can potentially daisy chain the wound to him, albeit with the correct rolls of 3+ (Ogryn A took damage! Ogryn B intercepts, suffering a mortal wound! Ogryn B took damage! Ogryn C intercepts, suffering a mortal wound!). So, you have a formation of 108 wounds worth of models that lose their first model after suffering 91 damage. Bear in mind, that with the Celestine + Primaris Psyker + Strategem, the model you can shoot at is sporting a 2++, potentially. Or, you can just take 4++ saves across the block.

Needs FAQ. Sooner than later.

Can an Ogryn Bodyguard take a wound for a Culexus? Asking for a friend...

 daedalus wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
So are evicerators on priests.... again

Would there be any benefit to taking the codex one over the index?

Sorry for the tardy reply was at work. So after comparing them, looks like we lost the shotgun, evicerator AND plasma gun options lol. Otherwise they are identical except for costs. Codex one is cheaper 2pl to 3pl from the index both 35pts. So basically they just got worse in terms of gear. Pretty sure you have to use the codex entry since its the most recent dataslate, although I can see how that is awkward for other armies of the imperium that are not using the guard book.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

RogueApiary wrote:

ryzouken wrote:

 MacPhail wrote:
Did plasma pistols on scion sergeants go up in the codex, or just the plasma guns? Is a squad of 5 with 2x plasma guns, 2x hot shot lasguns, and a chainsword/plasma pistol Tempestor now 78 points instead of 66? Thanks to whoever got their book before me!

Looks correct.

In other news: new plan! 3 Vanguard detachments with maxxed out Ogryn Bodyguards. That's 18 individual T5 6W 4++sv Ogryn for around 990 points. Each is a character of less than 10 wounds, so only the closest can be targeted. If one of them loses a wound, a different one can, on a 3+, suffer a mortal wound instead. So you can spread wounds around. Further, if the ogryn you want to eat the damage is in the back, you can potentially daisy chain the wound to him, albeit with the correct rolls of 3+ (Ogryn A took damage! Ogryn B intercepts, suffering a mortal wound! Ogryn B took damage! Ogryn C intercepts, suffering a mortal wound!). So, you have a formation of 108 wounds worth of models that lose their first model after suffering 91 damage. Bear in mind, that with the Celestine + Primaris Psyker + Strategem, the model you can shoot at is sporting a 2++, potentially. Or, you can just take 4++ saves across the block.

Needs FAQ. Sooner than later.

Can an Ogryn Bodyguard take a wound for a Culexus? Asking for a friend...

No, they can only play blocker foir friendly astra militarum characters

They're 13ppm now.

Plasma pistols stayed the same I believe!

Happy to be back using the shadowsword. Itll be nice to get 3d3 and hitting on 2's if I didnt move and I use the cadia strategem. Along with re-rolling 1's. (Assuming its vs a titan)

Im a bit overwelmed with warhammer and all the new changes. I've vowed to stop spending money on it all lol

Dionysodorus wrote:
Shadowswords really are pretty crazy. A barebones Shadowsword is now I think 406 points (with storm bolter). Its volcano cannon alone, and without considering doctrines or other buffs, expects 9.6 wounds on a Predator, 10.3 wounds on a Russ, 12.7 wounds on a Land Raider, 9.1 wounds on a Stormraven, 22.1 wounds on another Baneblade, and 16.2 on a Knight.

So against another superheavy it is coming pretty close to making its cost back in a single shot. It expects to make back well more than half its points against something like a Land Raider, and almost half against a tricked-out Russ or Stormraven or Predator. It's less efficient against these lighter vehicles mostly because it tends to overkill them.

It's harder to figure out which regiment to make them. Cadia seems like the obvious choice but you probably don't want to be sitting still -- you want to be charging forwards to maybe take advantage of Crush Them. The Catachan doctrine has a pretty negligible effect -- it boosts expected wounds vs a Land Raider by only about 6%. The Vostroyan stratagem is a lot better, since it improves expected wounds vs a LR by 14%. The Valhallan doctrine will have a similar impact to the Vostroyan stratagem some of the time, and will keep it more effective in CC for longer.

Good luck finding people to play against...

 malamis wrote:
Had the pleasure of making one of our uber competitive players concede the end of turn 1 against mono cadia:
That in 2k I had 3 SHTs , one with quad sponsons and 3 manticores made me realise that i'll need to play index without an appointment. Without even trying, IG can straight up suck the fun out of the game :|

I too would concede turn 1, maybe not even before I deployed if I had to see that. I can't see how that army would ever be fun for the opposing side unless they specifically built against it. I would work on maybe not bringing three SHTs in a 2k game and maybe something a bit more casual if you are looking to increase fun levels.

About the conscripts...

Who would even use them? As in that they are supposedly used every time someone plays IG.

It's not like they are the only bubble wrap awailable.

 RedCommander wrote:
About the conscripts...

Who would even use them? As in that they are supposedly used every time someone plays IG.

It's not like they are the only bubble wrap awailable.

Platoons are gone in the traditional sense, so they're the only "blobs" we have now.

On top of that, they're practically fearless with commissars, the cheapest and most efficient infantry in the game, benefit from orders 50-75% of the time, have a good all around weapon in a pinch, and just are all in all a pain in the ass to remove. They're not tough in the traditional sense so much as they are just so ridiculously cheap that most weapons and units that attack them are just not efficient enough to remove them in time. You're spending like 90pts on conscripts to hold up like 3-400pts of the enemy's army from killing your main units.

This is ignoring the new things they gained, such as objective secured, and regiment traits, which means that now they get to be S4 if they're catachans, reroll 1's if they're cadians, increased rapid fire range if vostroyans or steel legion, BS 5+ overwatch as Mordians, or take half losses from battleshock and practically endlessly respawn as Valhallans.


It's one of the closest things in the game to a no brainer right now. If you want troops to hold objectives, screen, or even just harass enemy infantry, conscripts with a commissar are one of the most efficient choices in the game. The crazy part is stormtroopers and infantry squads are crazy good too, they're just not as insane as conscripts.

 Zontarz wrote:


I too would concede turn 1, maybe not even before I deployed if I had to see that. I can't see how that army would ever be fun for the opposing side unless they specifically built against it. I would work on maybe not bringing three SHTs in a 2k game and maybe something a bit more casual if you are looking to increase fun levels.

Almost this exact army went up against the same player in TWC 7th and was pasted turn 3 - hence why we tried it.

By the way, am I right in thinking that the Valhallan Send in the Next Wave stratagem requires Reinforcement Points?

If so, what is even the point of it?

No, GW clarified that any ability that resurrects an existing unit doesn't require reinforcement points (and zombifying counts as ressurecting) summoning a brand new unit e.g. Daemon does require reinforcement points though.

WatcherZero wrote:
No, GW clarified that any ability that resurrects an existing unit doesn't require reinforcement points (and zombifying counts as ressurecting) summoning a brand new unit e.g. Daemon does require reinforcement points though.

Could you send me a link to that clarification, because it's the exact opposite of what the Reinforcement Point rule states?

 vipoid wrote:

WatcherZero wrote:
No, GW clarified that any ability that resurrects an existing unit doesn't require reinforcement points (and zombifying counts as ressurecting) summoning a brand new unit e.g. Daemon does require reinforcement points though.

Could you send me a link to that clarification, because it's the exact opposite of what the Reinforcement Point rule states?

Isn't reinforcements as such, but you are completely scrapping one unit for another, rather than adding another complete unit to your army. In other words you are 'respawning' a unit, even if there are some survivors.
It's more or less like the meat grinder attacker rules from 3rd where you can remove a unit and redeploy it at the attackers table edge.

 vipoid wrote:

WatcherZero wrote:
No, GW clarified that any ability that resurrects an existing unit doesn't require reinforcement points (and zombifying counts as ressurecting) summoning a brand new unit e.g. Daemon does require reinforcement points though.

Could you send me a link to that clarification, because it's the exact opposite of what the Reinforcement Point rule states?

The August batch of Errata updates.

 Dr. Mills wrote:

Isn't reinforcements as such, but you are completely scrapping one unit for another, rather than adding another complete unit to your army.

Irrelevant.

Reinforcement Points: "Sometimes a psychic power or ability will allow you to add units to your army, or replace units that have been destroyed."

Emphasis mine.

Unless you have an errata that stats otherwise, a replaced unit still uses Reinforcement Points.

WatcherZero wrote:
[The August batch of Errata updates.

That's not a link. I've checked the core rule faq/errata and have found nothing to back up your statement.

Could you perhaps quote the relevant change?

It appears to cost points as-is, though note that the week-1 faqs for Chaos and AdMech both clarified that their similar stratagems did not require points (even though in those cases the clarification seems unnecessary).

The key is the difference between Unit and Model wording, all the resurrection abilities work by resurrecting models not units, Send in the next wave has to be used on an existing unit and respawns them to full at the edge of the board, its not creating a new unit.

Rules Errata

REINFORCEMENTS Q: If a rule creates a new unit during the battle in a matched play game and adds them to my army, must I pay for the unit with my reinforcement points? A: Yes (unless the rule itself says otherwise). If you don’t have enough reinforcement points, you cannot add that unit to your army.
Q: What about rules that transform one model into another model – such as turning an enemy Character into a Chaos Spawn; do I still need to pay reinforcement points to add the Chaos Spawn to my army? A: Again, yes (unless the rule itself says otherwise).
Q: What about rules that add models to existing units; do I need to pay reinforcement points for those models? A: No (unless the rule itself says otherwise).

The clarification they provided recently was to the rule interpretation debate if unit and model are indeed treated separately and you could overstrength units and to Admech they said their identical strategy didn't require reinforcement points

Codex Death Guard Errata
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Codex_Death_Guard_ENG.pdf

Q: Can Poxwalkers use the Curse of the Walking Pox ability to increase the unit above its starting strength? A: Yes.
Q: If the Poxwalkers’ Curse of the Walking Pox ability increases the unit above its starting strength, does this cost reinforcement points? A: No.

Admech
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/Codex_Adeptus_Mechanicus_ENG.pdf

Q: Do I need to spend reinforcement points to return units when using the Fresh Converts Stratagem? A: No.

Haven't seen if confirmed in tha thread so I'll do it. We no longer have access to power weapons except swords and fist.

*Erk never mind I skimmed right over it.

Anyways, so with the tallarn strat and dagger I was thinking as part of a 2k list, Supreme Command <Tallarn> with two plasma vet or plasma special weapon teams and three Punisher tank commanders. I'm undecided as if it would be better to mount heavy bolters all around on the tanks and use the order to duck back out of LOS after shooting or mount heavy flamers and use the order to roll in and burninate. That backed by a decent brigade of Cadians in my head atleast sound like it can be a devestating alpha or even beta strike since even without those models on the table you can a build damn solid firebase out of just the Cadian brigade.

Yeah, I'm a little bummed that one of the two armies that makes the best use of mauls and axes lost them.

So, a couple of other questions regarding Send in the Next Wave:

1) Are you allowed to bring back a unit when the last man fled instead of being destroyed?

2) If you bring back a destroyed unit, do you have to exclude models in that unit that fled during the battle?

 vipoid wrote:
So, a couple of other questions regarding Send in the Next Wave:

1) Are you allowed to bring back a unit when the last man fled instead of being destroyed?

2) If you bring back a destroyed unit, do you have to exclude models in that unit that fled during the battle?

It doesn't matter at all. Fleeing is the same as dying, can't see anything in the rules that would make it different.