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2017/10/15 03:58:50
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
I really want to try out Cadian Doctrines but I feel like they are a trap, and a potentially boring one at that. Great buffs but you have to sit still to make use of them. Every Cadian unit weakens itself by moving and I'm tempted enough to sit still and gun line already. I think Catachans and Tallarn are the way to go.
2017/10/15 05:26:25
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Otto von Bludd wrote: I really want to try out Cadian Doctrines but I feel like they are a trap, and a potentially boring one at that. Great buffs but you have to sit still to make use of them. Every Cadian unit weakens itself by moving and I'm tempted enough to sit still and gun line already. I think Catachans and Tallarn are the way to go.
I can see it being a trap if you only have Cadians. But I think bringing a firebase detachment of Cadians with a mobile detachment has a lot of promise. Currently playing with Cadian brigade firebase, pure Tempestus battalion detachment, and a wildcard detachment (tried Tallarn Spearhead and Mixed Imperium Vanguard so far). Its been working pretty well so far but I think I'll need more tanks to make the tallarn spearhead variant work.
2017/10/15 06:15:48
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Cadians are your standard gunline+, so should suffer objective-wise since you got to move and loose some of their efficiency.
Also, checking in a bit more details, the other regimental doctrines, seems to favour getting in close, or having some adventage when you're in closer to your enemy, even being in melee with them, either with orders, doctrines, or strategams. Cadians rely on shooting at every turn. Their only non-related shooting 'Cadians-only' thing is thier Warlord Trait.
Close second would be Vostroyans, but even get to shoot non-pistol weapons in melee via their Regimental order. Add the Laurels of command, and got a 50/50 chance to FRFSRF that lot of whatever that's hounding your infantry.
2017/10/15 06:33:24
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Ogryn bodyguard are a way to use the Dagger of Tu'sak deepstrike a unit of Bullgryn though so they're not footslogging.
*edit: Well now that I look at it never mind using the bodyguard, you can use a Primaris psyker or a priest ause it says the <infantry> unit need to have the same regiment keyword only ifthe character with the dagger also has a regiment.
With Vostroyans "Repel the Enemy!" order I was looking more as a way to support screening units locked in melee with the fire of units with nasty ranged weapons. Like say i have a unit of crusaders tying up some khorne berserkers and right behind the crusaders is a plasma command squad. Order RTE and they're blasting the zerkers while remaining safely behind the Crusader's shield wall out of the reach of chain axes.
Granted the can just be shot at or jump units can just fly over the crusaders and get behind the command squad but you get the idea. Let tanky units basically the anvil and the guys behind them a hammer.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/10/15 06:49:12
Vorradis 75th "Crimson Cavaliers" 8.7k
The enemies of Mankind may employ dark sciences or alien weapons beyond Humanity's ken, but such deviance comes to naught in the face of honest human intolerance back by a sufficient number of guns.
2017/10/15 09:00:02
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Otto von Bludd wrote: I really want to try out Cadian Doctrines but I feel like they are a trap, and a potentially boring one at that. Great buffs but you have to sit still to make use of them. Every Cadian unit weakens itself by moving and I'm tempted enough to sit still and gun line already. I think Catachans and Tallarn are the way to go.
Well, I think it can be effective - especially if you have a lot of artillery units that will probably never need to move.
However, I completely agree with you that it will almost certainly encourage boring play, hence why it doesn't interest me at all.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/10/15 12:38:37
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
I think Cadian v Catachan comes down to more than just static v movement. It's also a matter of support fire. Catachan favor vehicle artillery, while Cadians favor heavy weapon teams.
2017/10/15 15:00:28
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
I took my Scions out to a tourney for the 1st time since the codex dropped. I was relatively impressed. The regimental bonus of getting extra shots on 6's to hit was more potent than I expected, and the Old Grudges Warlord trait was quite powerful and useful.
This was my list:
Spoiler:
Imperium Vanguard Detachment St Celestine w/ 1 Geminai Superior
Ordo Malleus Inquisitor in termie armor (Psyker - Terrify, Nemisis Demonhammers, Psycannon)
Militarum Tempestus Battalion Detachment Tempestor Prime (Chain Sword, Command Rod) *Warlord: OLD GRUDGES*
Tempestor Prime (Chain Sword, Command Rod) **Relic: THE LAURELS OF COMMAND**
MT Scions (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)
MT Scions (2 Hot Shot Volley Guns)
MT Scions
Taurox Prime (Taurox Gatling, 2 Autocannons, Storm Bolter)
More info on the tourney:
Spoiler:
It was a 2 v 2 event. My partner was grey knights with Grand Master Dreadknight, Draigo, and 3 squads of interceptors.
Game 1 We lost a close one in round 1 to a list that was Magnus, Mortarian, Belikore, a Nurgle Demon Prince, a Renegade knight with RFBC + Gatling, and 30-40 Brimstones with a blue in each squad. It was kill points base on powerlevel, and because my partner had 6 interceptors in each squad we gave up a bunch of extra power level (16 extra PL than if he had put 3 extra in 1 squad) We lost KP by just 4 PL so it made a huge difference.
I marked Magnus with Old grudges and dropped all my heavy guns agianst him on T1, but his rerollable 3+ invul saved every last one. But on turn 2 we killed the DP, Magnus and Mortarian, and on Turn 3 we finished belikore, and some horrors. If we had had a turn 4 we would have finished the horrors, and won solidly.
Game 2 we played Tzeeche CSM list. We smashed them really hard with our alphastrike. My melta command squad killed a dread, and my plasma command squad did 11!!!!! overcharged plasma wounds to a squad of rubric marines. Yes, a squad with only 8 shots did 11 wounds.
Game 3 was 2 Knights + Dark Eldar. This is where Old grudges really came up big. I marked the shooty knight, and dropped my Melta and plasma command squads next to it. All 4 melta wounded, but he saved one, unfortuanely that was only 9 damage. Still better than I expected without the warlord trait. The plasma caused 9 overcharged wounds to the knight, and he saved 5 of them, but still knocking a knight down 17 hull points with 2 command squads felt excellent.
My hot shot volley guns made mincemeat of Dark Eldar when they got out of their vehicles.
I was thinking plasma might have got nerfed a bit too hard, but Getting the extra shots via the regimental doctrine really made up for it, and having a way to reroll wounds really helped. I used "Vengence for Cadia" a couple times to reroll to hit with them so I could order them to reroll to wound. The Laurals of command, and the new scion order helped out my hot shot volley guns a bit too.
I still felt like I need to hit an opponent so hard on T1 that they can't get back up, because my scions die so easily, but I felt like I was more able to do that especially against big stuff like Knights or Big Demons. The biggest problem remains invul saves. Magnus with his 3++ rerollable is hard for guard, and if the culexus hadn't enabled us to deny it, I think we would have gotten stomped.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/15 15:01:11
2017/10/15 17:47:54
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
How come nobody is talking about multiple rocket pods now being assault weapons PLUS the hovering gunship rule? I just used a Valkyrie in a game that had a Lascannon, 2 heavy Bolters, and multiple rocket pods and it was boss. I'm actually considering using the hell strike missiles now ...
I also used Chimeras armed with autocannons and they were a lot of fun and useful since I play maelstrom missions. The hull heavy flamers got a nice power boost from Catachans doctrine.
And can anybody tell me if there is a use for the tech priest engineseers forge world keyword? Only thing I can think of is that if you had ad mech and imperial guard detachments then choosing the same forge world would allow it to repair both types of vehicles? He only gains the forge world dogma bonus if he's in a battle forged detachment ... It's confusing. If I can make him Stygies for help against snipers then I'd do that if I don't require a whole detachment. It's confusing.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/10/15 17:50:18
5k Imperial Guard
2k Ad Mech
2017/10/15 18:35:55
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Colonel Cross wrote: How come nobody is talking about multiple rocket pods now being assault weapons PLUS the hovering gunship rule? I just used a Valkyrie in a game that had a Lascannon, 2 heavy Bolters, and multiple rocket pods and it was boss. I'm actually considering using the hell strike missiles now ...
I also used Chimeras armed with autocannons and they were a lot of fun and useful since I play maelstrom missions. The hull heavy flamers got a nice power boost from Catachans doctrine.
And can anybody tell me if there is a use for the tech priest engineseers forge world keyword? Only thing I can think of is that if you had ad mech and imperial guard detachments then choosing the same forge world would allow it to repair both types of vehicles? He only gains the forge world dogma bonus if he's in a battle forged detachment ... It's confusing. If I can make him Stygies for help against snipers then I'd do that if I don't require a whole detachment. It's confusing.
It's a cool platform and will give you lots of options.
However we are talking 9+2D6 heavy bolter shots (give or take a multi-laser +1str for -1ap.)... So 16 str 5 shots for 170ish lasguns.
2x Wyverns give you 28 str4 shots (re-roll wounds) for about the same. A Punisher gets you 43 str 5 shots (granted, lacking some -1AP and range) but again, 30pts cheaper.
The mobility is well worth it though. I used it to drop off some meltas to pick off Bjorn and grab an OBJ. Then it moved off to support rough riders in the back field. There were some Marines in cover that the Wyvern would never have dislodged. Plus it was probably out of range. The -1ap on the weapons, ability to character snipe, deliver a payload where I want it, late game guardsmen shuffling, etc are all reasons it's useful. The cost adjustment and ability to hit things while in hover now made it absolutely relevant.
Also, my dice rolls are garbage. 2 turns in a row my Wyvern fired less than 10 shots WITH the free Catachan reroll of 1 dice! And I had a punisher. Range, LoS, mobility, etc all need to be taken into consideration.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/15 18:49:26
5k Imperial Guard
2k Ad Mech
2017/10/15 18:49:18
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Colonel Cross wrote: The mobility is well worth it though. I used it to drop off some meltas to pick off Bjorn and grab an OBJ. Then it moved off to support rough riders in the back field. There were some Marines in cover that the Wyvern would never have dislodged. Plus it was probably out of range. The -1ap on the weapons, ability to character snipe, deliver a payload where I want it, late game guardsmen shuffling, etc are all reasons it's useful. The cost adjustment and ability to hit things while in hover now made it absolutely relevant.
Relevant yes, but suboptimal.
Which is nice; it means I can field my V-Force without feeling guilty unlike when they were all vendettas back in 7th. They are probably one of the few options in the codex where it actually *does* matter what the player's skill is, as timing, positioning and general usage actually matters instead of 'take the enemy models off the table, if you want you can roll dice before doing it'
Some people find the idea that other people can be happy offensive, and will prefer causing harm to self improvement.
2017/10/15 19:11:01
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
I would quite like to see someone field a Catachan 22nd army, taking lots of veterans in valkyries. Could be a lot of fun to play with. Maybe take a few FW fliers as CAS.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/15 19:27:51
9 CP (because of three relics) at 1500 points, 5 points left over.
I put the two command squads in the Valk with the company commander that has the Iron Star and they do some character assassination. Other two company commanders hang out with the infantry, which generally screen the HWS / Basilisk, and then walk forward shooting after the obligatory alpha strike happens. The hellhound barrels forward on a suicide mission, flaming and daring my opponent to risk that 4+ moral would bubble from blowing it up. Scout Sentinels help with mitigating the alpha strike, but they're mostly there as cheap means to fill out the brigade. The HWS / Basilisks do what they're there to do. Astropath is mostly there for a cheap deny the witch, but I'd probably give it Nightshroud or something to help protect a basilisk or one of the HWS. Finally, the Scions just do their point and click thing that they do. Nothing really special there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/15 20:13:14
Quick question, guys - do you think it's worth giving a Company Commander a Power Fist?
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/10/15 21:07:47
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
vipoid wrote: Quick question, guys - do you think it's worth giving a Company Commander a Power Fist?
Maybe, although I am not a fan of gearing for close combat; I would rather spend the points on bodies and tanks. If you want a fist, a Lord Commissar is a better carrier as they have WS 2+.
vipoid wrote: Quick question, guys - do you think it's worth giving a Company Commander a Power Fist?
Maybe, although I am not a fan of gearing for close combat; I would rather spend the points on bodies and tanks. If you want a fist, a Lord Commissar is a better carrier as they have WS 2+.
I largely agree, but I don't mind spending some points on my HQs to give them a bit of character and differentiate the important ones.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/10/15 21:23:26
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
vipoid wrote: I largely agree, but I don't mind spending some points on my HQs to give them a bit of character and differentiate the important ones.
Me too. I used to love my 2x plasma pistol commander, back when I used to run plasma chimera CCS. Even made all the plasma gunners individuals too, such as the one with loads of canteens to keep his gun cool.
Another question - does anyone like Lord Commissars and/or find them useful?
I like the idea but they seem rather expensive and don't appear to bring much to the table.
Trickstick wrote: Me too. I used to love my 2x plasma pistol commander, back when I used to run plasma chimera CCS. Even made all the plasma gunners individuals too, such as the one with loads of canteens to keep his gun cool.
Hah, I love that idea. I don't suppose it bought that plasmagunner any luck with overheats?
Also, I'd forgotten you could even have commanders with 2 plasma pistols. What's GW got against gunslingers?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/15 22:39:38
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2017/10/15 23:20:00
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
vipoid wrote: Hah, I love that idea. I don't suppose it bought that plasmagunner any luck with overheats?
Also, I'd forgotten you could even have commanders with 2 plasma pistols. What's GW got against gunslingers?
Not so much, although he was usually the last to die out of the squad.
As for gunslingers, I guess if they let anyone use two pistols then Cypher would be far less special. He deserves the bonus after being hunted by traitors for so long.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/15 23:20:24
vipoid wrote: Another question - does anyone like Lord Commissars and/or find them useful?
I like the idea but they seem rather expensive and don't appear to bring much to the table.
Leadership 9, can fill an HQ slot, and maybe if you really want to try to make CC guard work while having an HQ that is decent in CC and can take the relic pistol. Otherwise I don't see the point in taking one over a regular Commissar and a Company commander, as the extra 10-15 points is easily made up for with the commander being able to issue orders. If you want a fluffy Catachan list you can go without any Commisars and still hit LD 8 with the regimental standard.
I guess they're good for Valhallan infantry lists. LD9 blob of conscripts that can only lose 1 model to failed morale checks and then can be brought back after the stubborn bastards have fought to the last man sounds cool, but it's still more effective to bring a regular commissar and platoon commander.
Edit: I typed hammer commissar... The Valhallans are so much like the Red Army I was thinking of sickles and hammers..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/10/15 23:48:49
2017/10/16 00:00:46
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Otto von Bludd wrote: I really want to try out Cadian Doctrines but I feel like they are a trap, and a potentially boring one at that. Great buffs but you have to sit still to make use of them. Every Cadian unit weakens itself by moving and I'm tempted enough to sit still and gun line already. I think Catachans and Tallarn are the way to go.
Cadian Doctrine is good. It makes lascannons worthy.
You would think that your mobility suffers but it's not so bad. If the situation calls it and you really have to move these guys, you can move+advance in movement phase *and* move+advance in shooting place with Orders. You are bringing officers, right? Sure, you miss a turn a of shooting but with scenario play, it might be worth it. Killing something out of spite pales in comparison to actually playing the scenario and winning the game.
Also, nothing is stopping you from also fielding Stormtroopers. Deepstriking is the best form of movement.
Either way, when you are playing Imperium, it's a good idea to bring one detachment that doesn't benefit from Doctrines/etc. The variety just beats the alternative.
"Be like General Tarsus of yore, bulletproof and free of fear!"
2017/10/16 01:19:23
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
As for gunslingers, I guess if they let anyone use two pistols then Cypher would be far less special. He deserves the bonus after being hunted by traitors for so long.
Sisters of battle still have duel pistols. Ran a duel inferno pistol canoness when the index dropped. Ran her up the field with Cypher. She popped tanks and transports, and he finished off the infantry.
2017/10/16 02:07:37
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
The section in the codex that goes over this doesn't set a limit on the percentage in the army. If you only have a single squad, and the rest are auxillera, astropaths, commissars, ect, then that squad would still get the regimental doctrine.
Your list works.
If you had included any other imperial units in the detachment, or troops from any other non-stormtrooper regiment, then all regiments would loose their doctrines and stratagems. Also, stormtroopers only get their regiment buff if they're the only (REGIEMENT) unit in the detachment.
2017/10/16 09:12:09
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Reading the Codex and it is by far the most fun codex I have read. And it making me dust off my Guard and allies forces to play.
Overall, I like the codex and most of my complaints are nitpicks. Which to me means a good codex and after reading this and looking back at the insult of a codex for the Adeptus Mechanicus it really makes me feel sad that GW has not ironed out the bad rules writers and teams which are working with each faction. As its very apparent now that some armies are getting more love than others.
That being said. I love this codex since (imho) all codexes should make each unit a "Oh, I want to take that" and this book pretty much does that for every unit (except for wyrd psykers, which is sad cause I love their models).
So here is something I have been thinking about since reading the codex. For a potentially broken combo though its super expensive and some things can go wrong.
Baneblade: Stormlord. Give it all the bells and whistles, extra Lazcannons and so forth. Load it up with 18 autocannon heavy weapons guys or Lazcannons. Place it within a Force Field Generator. A squad of psykers (Primaris maybe two) casting +1 save and casting -1 to hit. And if you're really worried about something nuking it, spend a command point for the extra +1 save for the wonderful 3++.
Its a huge expensive chunk, probably costing you half your army in a 2000 pts game, but it would be fairly fun to field for lulz.
8th Overhaul!
Over 18,000 SM
Over 7000 Tyranids
About 3000 Genestealer cult
About 6000 IG
About 2500 Chaos
About 5000 Skitarii/Admech *Current focus
About 3000 Deamons
2 Imperial Knigts... Soon to be a third
2017/10/16 10:11:47
Subject: Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?
Otto von Bludd wrote: I really want to try out Cadian Doctrines but I feel like they are a trap, and a potentially boring one at that. Great buffs but you have to sit still to make use of them. Every Cadian unit weakens itself by moving and I'm tempted enough to sit still and gun line already. I think Catachans and Tallarn are the way to go.
Cadian Doctrine is good. It makes lascannons worthy.
You would think that your mobility suffers but it's not so bad. If the situation calls it and you really have to move these guys, you can move+advance in movement phase *and* move+advance in shooting place with Orders. You are bringing officers, right? Sure, you miss a turn a of shooting but with scenario play, it might be worth it. Killing something out of spite pales in comparison to actually playing the scenario and winning the game.
Also, nothing is stopping you from also fielding Stormtroopers. Deepstriking is the best form of movement.
Either way, when you are playing Imperium, it's a good idea to bring one detachment that doesn't benefit from Doctrines/etc. The variety just beats the alternative.
There are multiple solutions to Cadian lack of mobility.
Storm troopers
Elysians detachment
Tallaran detachment
add Valks or Vendettas they don't get regimental doctrine anyways.
Out flank with a combination of ogres and rough riders.
Chaos isn’t a pit. Chaos is a ladder. Many who try to climb it fail, and never get to try again. The fall breaks them. And some are given a chance to climb, but refuse. They cling to the realm, or love, or the gods…illusions. Only the ladder is real. The climb is all there is, but they’ll never know this. Not until it’s too late.
Vorradis 75th "Crimson Cavaliers" 8.7k
