Astra Militarum: More Competitive in 8th Edition?

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**Thoni**

godardc wrote:
Thoni wrote:

Drop in a few mortars for geq clearing

why would you take mortars over heavy bolters ?

The Heavy Bolter I drop in on the tarantula Sentry guns. So no need for them in hvy weapon squads for elysians.

Regarding the flames you are right. They are not scaring the close combat specialist units. But if you fight with your recently dropped troops over an objective somewhere in the nomansland and not on your frontline, your enemy usually don’t have the heavy hitters nearby. And if he pulled some troops or geq in their direction he is thinking twice to charge flamer and Lasguns.

**tneva82**

MrMoustaffa wrote:
Is there a serious assault unit in the game actually deterred by flamers? I feel like even just your lasguns and plasma on overwatch would be more intimidating than a single flamer. At best you get 6 hits, which will wound 3 genestealers and kill something like 2. That's hardly stopping most things. A SWS or command squad with flamers? Yeah I'd start thinking harder about how badly I want to stab those guardsmen but I feel a regular flamer isn't going to stop anything but the most fragile of units.

And what assault unit is worriea about single plasma? Less than 0.33 wounds. More casualties to yourself on overwatch than enemy

**Thoni**

tneva82 wrote:
MrMoustaffa wrote:
Is there a serious assault unit in the game actually deterred by flamers? I feel like even just your lasguns and plasma on overwatch would be more intimidating than a single flamer. At best you get 6 hits, which will wound 3 genestealers and kill something like 2. That's hardly stopping most things. A SWS or command squad with flamers? Yeah I'd start thinking harder about how badly I want to stab those guardsmen but I feel a regular flamer isn't going to stop anything but the most fragile of units.

And what assault unit is worriea about single plasma? Less than 0.33 wounds. More casualties to yourself on overwatch than enemy

Exactly my point. If you trying to fight an assault unit with you simple troops, something goes wrong.

They just pick opportunities at forgotten objectives and have to survive long enough to score.

**tneva82**

But flamers, especially several ones, can scare assault stuff. I know my orks hate charging several flamers.

**Thoni**

tneva82 wrote:
But flamers, especially several ones, can scare assault stuff. I know my orks hate charging several flamers.

That’s what catachan command squats are for.

But as we have been discussing the Elysian troop single special weapon choice I would stick to a single flamer. See above.

**Smotejob**

Thoni wrote:

That’s what catachan command squats are for.

Squats who have not only joined the catachan army but command it? Yes please

**tag8833**

So Hydras are pretty amazing. Took one to an event yesterday. It was my top damage dealer by far. Feels like nearly every army has something that flies.

What is the best regiment for Hydras? I ran Cadian, and thanks to the extra CP from Battallions, I used the Cadian Strategem a couple times. Hitting on 2's with 8 Autocannons is pretty intense.

JB

tag8833 wrote:
So Hydras are pretty amazing. Took one to an event yesterday. It was my top damage dealer by far. Feels like nearly every army has something that flies.

What is the best regiment for Hydras? I ran Cadian, and thanks to the extra CP from Battallions, I used the Cadian Strategem a couple times. Hitting on 2's with 8 Autocannons is pretty intense.

I think most IG players choose to take other units instead of paying 108 points for a Hydra. I take one sometimes because my area is full of armies that use units with the Fly keyword. Cadian is best for Hydras. The Overlapping Fires stratagem and Born Soldiers regimental trait are fantastic together, as you experienced in your event. I tend not to take a Hydra versus IG, AdMech, and some Nurgle players because they rarely use flyers. There is one Death Guard guy though that fields Morty and Plague Drones.

**Thoni**

JB wrote:
tag8833 wrote:
So Hydras are pretty amazing. Took one to an event yesterday. It was my top damage dealer by far. Feels like nearly every army has something that flies.

What is the best regiment for Hydras? I ran Cadian, and thanks to the extra CP from Battallions, I used the Cadian Strategem a couple times. Hitting on 2's with 8 Autocannons is pretty intense.

I think most IG players choose to take other units instead of paying 108 points for a Hydra. I take one sometimes because my area is full of armies that use units with the Fly keyword. Cadian is best for Hydras. The Overlapping Fires stratagem and Born Soldiers regimental trait are fantastic together, as you experienced in your event. I tend not to take a Hydra versus IG, AdMech, and some Nurgle players because they rarely use flyers. There is one Death Guard guy though that fields Morty and Plague Drones.

Hydras are perfect. I love them with mit catachans. I usually take one or two. Everyone brings some units with the fly keyword, like battlesuits, Jetbikes, deamons, etc. They are every game their points worth.

**slip**

I'm about to finalize my army list and I was wondering if I could get your opinions on how competitive it is and if there are any tweaks I should make.

Spoiler:

**Thoni**

Next question: What about malcador tanks?

They are the very few tanks I’ve never seen in action - but they look badass.

But my concern is, that after the first faq a Leman Russ has packs much more firepower point wise. What’s your experiences?

**Colonel Cross**

Slip,

Sentinels can't have Heavy Bolters. So you better cough up 12 more points in the list of yours for autocannons. Or I guess just 6 if you're ok with multilasers.

**Chris521**

Thoni wrote:
Next question: What about malcador tanks?

They are the very few tanks I’ve never seen in action - but they look badass.

But my concern is, that after the first faq a Leman Russ has packs much more firepower point wise. What’s your experiences?

Well, you answered your question. Unfortunately, the majority of the FW tanks have been left in the dust. The codex gave Leman Russes and Baneblades much better firepower but FW hasn't changed their own. The Macharius and Malcador line really need something like grinding advance to be relevant. Funnily enough, it was FW's laziness that made the Macharius Vulcan okay since they just kept the 7th edition weapon profile, which gives it a way to double fire.

**slip**

Thanks! I'm gonna swap a grenade launcher and the storm bolter on the stormlord for multilasers on the sentinels and the extra point on a gold plated boltgun for my warlord. Style for the style throne.

I figure multilasers for the sentinels since their only scouts and I'd prefer to keep them out of firefights altogether. Good as pickets, speed bumps, linebreaker, and possibly surprise charge the maybe one thing per army lamer than it in CC. Almost tempted to spring for chainsaws somehow.

I'll edit this into the original list.

e: Tweaked it slightly for another plasma gun and some sniper filler.

e2: Would the dagger of tu'sakh and a plasma vet squad paired with the order form firing squad and the strategem volley fire combine effectively to assassinate an enemy character?

**Smotejob**

I like bringing the dagger in my lists... However, I dont usually get a character pick from it. Most people protect their characters well enough. I like to bring plasma in to target something dangerous or elite. 3-4 plasma guns are good for picking off their long range fire power, shoving them off their backfield objectives and forcing your opponent to move backwards (think Terran Marine medivac drop on the mineral line).

**PatrickL**

Can Yarrick bring the dagger? I don;t think he can since he doesnt have the officer keyword, but I wanted to make sure.

**Grimskul**

PatrickL wrote:
Can Yarrick bring the dagger? I don;t think he can since he doesnt have the officer keyword, but I wanted to make sure.

No, he's a named character so he doesn't have access to heirlooms of conquest. Only generic characters have access to them.

**gendoikari87**

Grimskul wrote:
PatrickL wrote:
Can Yarrick bring the dagger? I don;t think he can since he doesnt have the officer keyword, but I wanted to make sure.

No, he's a named character so he doesn't have access to heirlooms of conquest. Only generic characters have access to them.

not quite accurate ... named characters can take relics..... IF they don’t have special war gear themselves. Which is effectively about the same but an important distinction. Otherwise they’d never have made the distinction

Automatically Appended Next Post:
For instance creed can take relics (despite the codex calling him out by name) as can pask*

*if his lrbt doesn’t count and I’m not 100% sure it does

Automatically Appended Next Post:
P.s. no I don’t care what you think the rules are clear and until gw faqs it that’s how it works

JB

Creed cannot take relics and neither can Pask. The codex specifically states,"Named characters such as Lord Castellan Creed already have one or more artefacts, and cannot be given any of the following relics."

Edit: Page 2 of the codex FAQ says that only characters that have the INFANTRY and OFFICER keywords can take the dagger. Given the restriction on named characters, you can give the dagger to a Company Commander, a Tempestor Prime, or a Platoon Commander.

**Unit1126PLL**

What's everyone's opinion on the Minotaur Artillery Tank now that it can move and fire it's guns? Is just under 300 points worth it for such a machine?

**Peregrine**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
What's everyone's opinion on the Minotaur Artillery Tank now that it can move and fire it's guns? Is just under 300 points worth it for such a machine?

How can it move and fire?

**Thoni**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
What's everyone's opinion on the Minotaur Artillery Tank now that it can move and fire it's guns? Is just under 300 points worth it for such a machine?

I don’t have one so my thoughts are pure guesswork:

I tend to run at least 2 basilisk in my CATACHAN army. With them I stick to the Armageddon pattern for the extra toughness point. So two basilisk are much cheaper for the same firepower.

Minotaur got one point toughness more.
You get the 5+invul against shooting.
Due to damage chart you have better output over the game turns. On the other hand your opponent have just one target and he has not have to split fire between two tanks.
You can’t take the reroll from Artillerie officer, so you have to get another solution. This is critical in my opinion.
The fire on the move due to steel behemoth rule is irrelevant. When you get your Artillerie parking lot moving you doing it wrong.
You have to add a super heavy slot. For good and bad. The heavy slot is very crowded. So not bad.

My conclusion:
I tend to stick to the cheaper two single Armageddon basilisk. But the durability is definitely worth the points. In my games the basilisk are heavy hitter but not priority targets like manticore or executioner. Due to the increased durability of the Armageddon pattern they are no quick wins for my opponent neither. I like them to stay low in target priority so I tend to stick to Armageddon basilisk.
The model is awesom!.

**Unit1126PLL**

Peregrine wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
What's everyone's opinion on the Minotaur Artillery Tank now that it can move and fire it's guns? Is just under 300 points worth it for such a machine?

How can it move and fire?

The new Steel Behemoth update for FW gave it to their tanks iirc.

Thoni wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
What's everyone's opinion on the Minotaur Artillery Tank now that it can move and fire it's guns? Is just under 300 points worth it for such a machine?

I don’t have one so my thoughts are pure guesswork:

I tend to run at least 2 basilisk in my CATACHAN army. With them I stick to the Armageddon pattern for the extra toughness point. So two basilisk are much cheaper for the same firepower.

Minotaur got one point toughness more.
You get the 5+invul against shooting.
Due to damage chart you have better output over the game turns. On the other hand your opponent have just one target and he has not have to split fire between two tanks.
You can’t take the reroll from Artillerie officer, so you have to get another solution. This is critical in my opinion.
The fire on the move due to steel behemoth rule is irrelevant. When you get your Artillerie parking lot moving you doing it wrong.
You have to add a super heavy slot. For good and bad. The heavy slot is very crowded. So not bad.

My conclusion:
I tend to stick to the cheaper two single Armageddon basilisk. But the durability is definitely worth the points. In my games the basilisk are heavy hitter but not priority targets like manticore or executioner. Due to the increased durability of the Armageddon pattern they are no quick wins for my opponent neither. I like them to stay low in target priority so I tend to stick to Armageddon basilisk.
The model is awesom!.

Conversely, comparing it to a stock Baneblade at 390, you are 94 points cheaper and gain:
1) Essentially the same gun (averages for the twin earthshaker cannon are right around 8-12 shots, same for the 3d6 baneblade cannon)
2) 2 Heavy Bolters
3) A 5++ against shooting like a Knight
4) Ignore LOS shooting

You lose:
1) 1 pt of Strength (phrrbbt)
2) Some good CC ability (phrrbbt)
3) 4 wounds
4) flat 3 damage for d3 on the main gun

JB

Does the new Steel Behemoth rule apply to the Minotaur? The Imperial Armour FAQ lists the tanks for the Steel Behemoth change and the Minotaur is not listed among them. It seems to apply only to the tanks on pages 30-39.

Edit: Thanks for reminding me that I need to order the Imperial Armour Index for the Forces of the Imperial Guard.

**Unit1126PLL**

JB wrote:
Does the new Steel Behemoth rule apply to the Minotaur? The Imperial Armour FAQ lists the tanks for the Steel Behemoth change and the Minotaur is not listed among them. It seems to apply only to the tanks on pages 30-39.

Edit: Thanks for reminding me that I need to order the Imperial Armour Index for the Forces of the Imperial Guard.

Oh rats! You're right!

I'll have to give it Tallarn, then.

On the upshot it can still overwatch infinite times. *Shrug*

EDIT:
Same for the Valdor too, weird. And the Praetor launcher. That's unexpected, but infinite overwatch is hilarious.

**Colonel Cross**

I can't believe it took them so long to FAQ the baneblade chassis overwatch clarification.

**Unit1126PLL**

Colonel Cross wrote:
I can't believe it took them so long to FAQ the baneblade chassis overwatch clarification.

And they still missed it on 3 vehicles (at least).

I'll make sure to ask my opponent if they prefer infinite overwatch or ignoring the movement and to-hit penalty when I play my Valdors and Praetor. I still don't own a Minotaur, though I am considering it obviously.

**gendoikari87**

JB wrote:
Creed cannot take relics and neither can Pask. The codex specifically states,"Named characters such as Lord Castellan Creed already have one or more artefacts, and cannot be given any of the following relics."

Edit: Page 2 of the codex FAQ says that only characters that have the INFANTRY and OFFICER keywords can take the dagger. Given the restriction on named characters, you can give the dagger to a Company Commander, a Tempestor Prime, or a Platoon Commander.

creed doesn’t have aretefacts. Until that’s faqed named characters rules as written can take relics if they don’t have artifacts. If you have a problem with that call out gws horrible rules writing out.

You can kind of make an argument for creed because the codex specifically calls him out. But again thanks to gw being gakky at rules writing raw you can. In fact because artefact is not defined you can make an argument ALL named characters can.

All because gw added a line they did not need to. They could have stopped at “named characters can’t take relics” but they didn’t... because they are gak at rules writing and I’m not giving them a pass anymore without faqs because they need to be less sloppy

**ph34r**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
What's everyone's opinion on the Minotaur Artillery Tank now that it can move and fire it's guns? Is just under 300 points worth it for such a machine?

My thought is the same as before.

Minotaur 280 points, has the firepower of exactly 2 basilisks...
or
2 Basilisks 216 points (77% of 280), has the firepower of exactly 2 basilisks...

Why would you ever pick the more expensive option?

**Unit1126PLL**

ph34r wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
What's everyone's opinion on the Minotaur Artillery Tank now that it can move and fire it's guns? Is just under 300 points worth it for such a machine?
My thought is the same as before.

Minotaur 280 points, has the firepower of exactly 2 basilisks...
or
2 Basilisks 216 points (77% of 280), has the firepower of exactly 2 basilisks...

Why would you ever pick the more expensive option?

Dramatically higher durability, ability to fire while in CC, better benefits from singe target buffs...

there's more to this game than firepower per point, presumably.