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Oh no, the Mordheim one will be much, much worse than this, I'll be trying to avoid it entirely as I'm already sick of explaining to folk who're really into AoS why they can't use their Land Marines in a Mordheim campaign.

BFG and Epic shouldn't be as contentious since they're a lot less tied down to any specific place or time; as long as it's clear that they'll eventually cover everything the worst we'll get in that discussion is some (reasonably justified)grumbling from Xenos players if as seems likely the SGS guys choose to kick things off in the Heresy.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
And I wonder why you don't just hit eBay if you literally want nothing else but a repackage of the original game.

Manchu already said that bad faith arguments will get you nowhere, and yet there you go...

I had to google that, but it definitely looks like neither of you two is using the term correctly. I honestly don't udnerstand what you guys want, one moment you're hating on anything new the other you're wishing for updates.

Also not sure why MLaw keeps attributing some sort of Necromunda hate to me like I don't have a link to a 250-page supplement that I wrote in my sig.

All I ever said is I'd prefer the expanded universe with all factions rather than just 6 bands of street punks that don't even have different stats other than skill access.

I don't see what they'd possibly need to release for Gorkamorka that isn't either already released or coming soon (buggies).

Other than a GoC style box with current plastics (and the New buggies) I don't think there's a hope in hell specialist games will do anything

Vorian wrote:
I don't see what they'd possibly need to release for Gorkamorka that isn't either already released or coming soon (buggies).

The problem with Gorkamorka is that you ran out of stuff to do with a campaign too soon. A lack of variety between gangs didn't help any, either.

 MLaw wrote:
..oh I just realized we're going to see this exact same conversation again for Mordheim, Epic, BFG, and whatever else they bring out (please be Gorkamorka!!!)..

Then let's get all the arguing from the other side out of the way:

"I can't wait for the new Mordhiem, but I hope it's not set in Mordhiem and is set in Age of Sigmar."
"I can't wait for new Epic to come out! Only I hope it's not set in 40K and has no Titans in it."
"I can't wait for the new BFG. I just wish it didn't have any space ships in it."
"The new Gorkamorka will be ace, but if GW are smart they'll ensure that it doesn't have any Orks in it!"


Makes about as much sense as wanting a new Necromunda but wanting GW to remove everything that made Necromunda Necromunda.

I want them to re-release Necromunda, but add in new stuff that tells us more about Necromunda; not just Palatine Hive.

If they do release Necromunda at Xmas then it had better be Necromunda with the six original gangs (multipart plastic kit for each gang) not a Shadow War: Armageddon expansion.

The only thing I hope for is that the gangs from the outlanders expansion will be following close.


I remember a campaign where there was arbitators, spyrers, redemptionists, 2x scavys and me playing delaque

Made my gang feel special for being the only "boring standard gang".

 Lockark wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

 Lockark wrote:
I don't really get what's wrong with updating the look for the existing gangs. Alot of the updates to classic designs have looked great.

It's been mentioned before, if there is no thematic change and the models still exhibit the same style as the old ones, there may still be a noticeable difference in sculpting technique and scaling that can make new models look off next to old ones. While it doesn't affect me personally, I can see how that might be a problem for others. I certainly try to get a unified look in my collections whenever possible.

Edit: Manchu puts up a good example. Celestine (or Veridyan in my case), so new Sisters, are well executed updates and put the style of the old one into plastic very well. But put Veridyan next to a metal Sister and the size difference is so irritating I'm going to have to put one of them away again because it ruins the overall appearance of the assembled Sisters.

But necromunda has so few models why would you want to use your old along side your new? One box would replace your whole gang in theory. That's why I don't get why this is a issue.

In the sister example that's only a issue because they didn't replace the whole range. One plastic box of ten would replace your whole old gang anyway.

Me? Specifically in this situation? I wouldn't use my old gang models at all because I hate metal models and very rarely put up with them these days. Which, by the way, is another reason I am all in favor of a real Necromunda redo with new models for the classic gangs.

But what if you lovingly converted some gangers back in the day and want to re-recruit them? You are emotionally attached to them, but putting them next to the new ones just doesn't work for you. And while you may have enough gangers for your last campaign, what if your new campaign with the new Necromunda is more successful for your gang and you need more models? New models are available, but you have to go scour Ebay for old ones because of visual incompatibility? These are valid concerns.

And it's true the real (and everlasting issue) with Sisters is that they don't get updated. The problem is not limited to Sisters, necessarily. If you look at Bloodbowl, only five teams have gotten plastic models so far. Additional resin models are rolled out slowly, and the other teams are made to order old models two decades old that you wouldn't mix in a single team, if GW offered additional models for plastic teams (say a chainsaw goblin or steamroller). So following the Bloodbowl example, if a new Necromunda is released, you have the full rules at your disposal before Christmas and can start playing right away. But only with the two gangs in the boxed set. And you'd better hope you don't roll for any exotic weapons, because there are no models for those yet. If you're hoping for other gangs, you'll get the basic model from February till May. If you're waiting for underhive scum, it could take over a year.

Now sure, it's not like this is the end of the world, and naturally GW cannot release all models at the same time, but specifically for that reason you will get a noticeable period of time in which too few options are covered and players have to go looking for alternatives. One of which could be old models.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 MLaw wrote:
..oh I just realized we're going to see this exact same conversation again for Mordheim, Epic, BFG, and whatever else they bring out (please be Gorkamorka!!!)..

Then let's get all the arguing from the other side out of the way:

"I can't wait for the new Mordhiem, but I hope it's not set in Mordhiem and is set in Age of Sigmar."
"I can't wait for new Epic to come out! Only I hope it's not set in 40K and has no Titans in it."
"I can't wait for the new BFG. I just wish it didn't have any space ships in it."
"The new Gorkamorka will be ace, but if GW are smart they'll ensure that it doesn't have any Orks in it!"

Makes about as much sense as wanting a new Necromunda but wanting GW to remove everything that made Necromunda Necromunda.

A campaign based AoS game would do a lot to fill out the background. I'd go for it, and can easily imagine that the cursed city was so cursed that even the end of the world wasn't enough to destroy it entirely. A single Stormcast leading a band of freeguild to claim the tainted shards of warpstone and keep them out of the hands of the baddies doesn't sound too out of place, or Knight-Questors as hireable mercs whose goals just happen to align with certain gangs at the moment.

As for the other games...
Bring back Warmaster? Yes, please!
Man-o-war? Same!
A game focusing on renegade grots vs diggas? Well, that would be a bit of a radical change, but could be interesting.

'Shadow Wars: Necromunda' is what we'll get if anything.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Oh no, the Mordheim one will be much, much worse than this, I'll be trying to avoid it entirely as I'm already sick of explaining to folk who're really into AoS why they can't use their Land Marines in a Mordheim campaign.

BFG and Epic shouldn't be as contentious since they're a lot less tied down to any specific place or time; as long as it's clear that they'll eventually cover everything the worst we'll get in that discussion is some (reasonably justified)grumbling from Xenos players if as seems likely the SGS guys choose to kick things off in the Heresy.

Whenever one of the members of our club want to use Sigmarines in our narrative campaings/games set in the old world we always use the same excuse: They are Iron golems created by Balthasar Gelt.
Or just a big-ass Knight. One friend of mine has a small band of a zombicied Knight-Questor with squeletons squires for example.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Oh no, the Mordheim one will be much, much worse than this, I'll be trying to avoid it entirely as I'm already sick of explaining to folk who're really into AoS why they can't use their Land Marines in a Mordheim campaign.

Yikes.
"No! Noooo! *pushes glasses back onto face* You CANNOT use THOSE fantasy soldiers in THIS fantasy game! I'm TIRED of EXPLAINING this!!!"

What happens when someone plays Space Marines vs Space Marines in 40k? "I'm sick of explaining to you two that Ultramarines cannot be fighting Crimson Fists!"

I'm going to post pictures of my Stormcast Eternals in my group's Mordheim terrain.

 judgedoug wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Oh no, the Mordheim one will be much, much worse than this, I'll be trying to avoid it entirely as I'm already sick of explaining to folk who're really into AoS why they can't use their Land Marines in a Mordheim campaign.

Yikes.
"No! Noooo! *pushes glasses back onto face* You CANNOT use THOSE fantasy soldiers in THIS fantasy game! I'm TIRED of EXPLAINING this!!!"

What happens when someone plays Space Marines vs Space Marines in 40k? "I'm sick of explaining to you two that Ultramarines cannot be fighting Crimson Fists!"

I'm going to post pictures of my Stormcast Eternals in my group's Mordheim terrain.

Specialist games needs to set Mordheim in the AoS universe to save Yod from this terrible fate! Start the petition!

You're sick of explaining it and they're sick of hearing it! It's a win-win!

You guys must have great fun playing Army Men vs GI Joes for your games of X-Wing. Or is wanting to keep the factions in play during a campaign limited to the ones that are actually part of the appropriate setting only bad-evil-wrong when it's a WHF fan prefering to play their WHF-set games with WHF factions and not Land Marines?

better analogy would be mixed eras in x wing. Which obviously, is the norm except by prearrangement

 Yodhrin wrote:
You guys must have great fun playing Army Men vs GI Joes for your games of X-Wing. Or is wanting to keep the factions in play during a campaign limited to the ones that are actually part of the appropriate setting only bad-evil-wrong when it's a WHF fan prefering to play their WHF-set games with WHF factions and not Land Marines?

My advice wasn't sarcastic. Stormcast Eternals with a little of tweaking can be put into a WHF battle. Obviusly, not as Stormcast Eternals. But I can totally understand people don't wanting them if they want a more "Pure" narrative.

 Yodhrin wrote:
You guys must have great fun playing Army Men vs GI Joes for your games of X-Wing. Or is wanting to keep the factions in play during a campaign limited to the ones that are actually part of the appropriate setting only bad-evil-wrong when it's a WHF fan prefering to play their WHF-set games with WHF factions and not Land Marines?

I was actually enjoying it more in a #firstworldproblems kind of way, not to belittle your very serious complaint of course!

 Yodhrin wrote:
You guys must have great fun playing Army Men vs GI Joes for your games of X-Wing. Or is wanting to keep the factions in play during a campaign limited to the ones that are actually part of the appropriate setting only bad-evil-wrong when it's a WHF fan prefering to play their WHF-set games with WHF factions and not Land Marines?

You got caught making a pedantically arrogant and dismissive statement.
Life goes on, take your licks and roll with it.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I had to google that, but it definitely looks like neither of you two is using the term correctly.

Google isn't a substitute for an education. What we're saying is, you don't even believe the arguments you're asserting and it's no surprise that we sure as hell don't, either. You'd do much better to state your position straightforwardly rather than hoping sarcasm will make the case for you, a la:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
All I ever said is I'd prefer the expanded universe with all factions rather than just 6 bands of street punks that don't even have different stats other than skill access.

There's an implication there that the stats are what matters, which is why I think the counterpoint that setting is more important sprang up.

As for what we want - I can only speak for myself but I'd like to see Necromunda faithfully recreated with updated materials and means along the lines of Space Hulk 2009.

 Yodhrin wrote:
I'm already sick of explaining to folk who're really into AoS why they can't use their Land Marines in a Mordheim campaign.

While the specific image you're evoking here - going on a tirade fueled by hatred of AoS - is silly, I agree with you underlying point that imaginary worlds actual do require a level of consistency to generate immersion. Stormcast simply do not work in the Mordheim setting, which relies on feelings of dread and vulnerability. Hulking warriors encased in resplendent golden armor streaming down from the heavens on lightning bolts in no way "fits" with the dank, dirty darkness of Mordheim.

 Manchu wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I had to google that, but it definitely looks like neither of you two is using the term correctly.

Google isn't a substitute for an education. What we're saying is, you don't even believe the arguments you're asserting and it's no surprise that we sure as hell don't, either. You'd do much better to state your position straightforwardly rather than hoping sarcasm will make the case for you, a la:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
All I ever said is I'd prefer the expanded universe with all factions rather than just 6 bands of street punks that don't even have different stats other than skill access.

There's an implication there that the stats are what matters, which is why I think the counterpoint that setting is more important sprang up.

As for what we want - I can only speak for myself but I'd like to see Necromunda faithfully recreated with updated materials and means along the lines of Space Hulk 2009.

 Yodhrin wrote:
I'm already sick of explaining to folk who're really into AoS why they can't use their Land Marines in a Mordheim campaign.

While the specific image you're evoking here - going on a tirade fueled by hatred of AoS - is silly, I agree with you underlying point that imaginary worlds actual do require a level of consistency to generate immersion. Stormcast simply do not work in the Mordheim setting, which relies on feelings of dread and vulnerability. Hulking warriors encased in resplendent golden armor streaming down from the heavens on lightning bolts in no way "fits" with the dank, dirty darkness of Mordheim.

I quoted all of this because I know if I tried to snip out the top part to trim it down I would just mangle it. My thing isn't so much that this group or that group can't be used... For me it's more about 2 things.

1. Mordheim is well within a specific area of "human" controlled lands. No real full-scale battles (army vs army) are going to be fought here. The types of adventurers who find themselves here just really doesn't thematically lend itself to full on front line shock trooper types. I could see one of these Sigmarines being a special character or something.. but just like Ogre Kingdoms, it doesn't make much sense for a whole warband of them to be slogging through Mordheim.. especially on a treasure hunt.

2. My family and friends actively play Mordheim using the originally printed rules and annuals and all of that. We stick to what is printed which means a)armies that exist in WHFB aren't always represented in Mordheim.. or.. are not represented exactly as they are in WHFB/AOS (Cult of the Possessed isn't "really" Chaos just like Undead are not a very accurate portrayal of a Vampire Counts army). and b) The groups that are present in Mordheim (as a standalone game) are tailored to the theme and setting.. which even means groups that have no actual army.. like Sisters of Sigmar, Pirates, and honestly.. Witchhunters.

I really see Necromunda the same way. It makes no sense to me to have Orks there as an example (though there was an official set of rules). Adding other stuff in should be done IMO thematically and within respect to the confines of the lore/setting. It wouldn't make sense to me at all to have Eldar or Necrons in a Necromunda setting. Tau... I dunno.. not really but some hand-waving explanation that they do trade might possibly work.. Adding in some specialized Chaos cult or Inquisitorial retinue? I could totally see that. Some Space Marines? No.. not really.. not even neophytes. There was a lot of stuff added in the Gang War magazine and other places that I don't think a lot of people are aware of.. and back then without the internet based resources we have today, it was hard to know exactly what WAS out there in most cases.

Anyway, someone mentioned Man-O-War a few posts up.. They kinda did that as Dreadfleet.. sorta.. I got the impression it didn't do so well.. so I'm not sure they would really be eager to go back down that road (I could be wrong though!). Someone also mentioned giving Necromunda the same treatment as Space Hulk (2009) which I think is a fantastic comparison to what I am looking for in this. Between that release and Bloodbowl, I really feel like maybe they get it... and hopefully that's where this lands.

 Manchu wrote:
Google isn't a substitute for an education.

This is basically hate speech against a non-native speaker, just so you know.

Like MLaw conveniently alluded to just now, most of official Necromunda material "isn't real Necromunda" by you guys' standards, so no, I am not making bad faith arguments. It's just that you guys can't present consistent standards for what is and isn't Necromunda.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Google isn't a substitute for an education.

This is basically hate speech against a non-native speaker, just so you know.

Like MLaw conveniently alluded to just now, most of official Necromunda material "isn't real Necromunda" by you guys' standards, so no, I am not making bad faith arguments. It's just that you guys can't present consistent standards for what is and isn't Necromunda.

Yeah.. this is another bad faith argument. You have no idea if that's how I view it or what any sort of consensus of what is and isn't acceptable is.. while simultaneously there is no need for any sort of consensus. The official game is what it is and will be what it will be.. and house rules will do the same. None of that has any bearing on what GW does. Moreover, I fully explained my reasoning.. which you aren't doing. You're just lighting fires, starting gak and leaving when someone points out that you're not here to advocate anything other than dissent. You have still not told us what you DO want and you are still just stirring the pot. Please carry that gak elsewhere.

EDIT: Just used the ignore feature for the first time and I have to say.. it's really nice. Other forum's ignore feature leaves the person's avatar and just hides the body of their comment.. which has that pandora's box effect. This is so elegant and discreet.. perfect!

 MLaw wrote:

Yeah.. this is another bad faith argument. You have no idea if that's how I view it or what any sort of consensus of what is and isn't acceptable is.. while simultaneously there is no need for any sort of consensus.

Then why are you ripping into everyone who doesn't share your definition?

The official game is what it is and will be what it will be.. and house rules will do the same. None of that has any bearing on what GW does. Moreover, I fully explained my reasoning.. which you aren't doing.

Yes I did.

You're just lighting fires, starting gak and leaving when someone points out that you're not here to advocate anything other than dissent.

Did I leave? I posted a few minutes ago. But I do have a day job. I also sleep. Am I disqualified somehow if I take an 8 hour break? In all fairness, tho, you were the first to say that anyone who disagrees with you should leave the thread and go play Urban Mammoth or something like that.

You have still not told us what you DO want and you are still just stirring the pot.

Yes I did. Maybe filter for my posts or something if your scroll wheel is broken.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Google isn't a substitute for an education.

This is basically hate speech against a non-native speaker, just so you know.

Like MLaw conveniently alluded to just now, most of official Necromunda material "isn't real Necromunda" by you guys' standards, so no, I am not making bad faith arguments. It's just that you guys can't present consistent standards for what is and isn't Necromunda.

Seems like you must also be mistakenly relying on random Google hits for the definition of "hate speech." As the person aggressively asserting strawman positions, you are hardly the victim here. And kindly refrain from citing Google to smugly suggest native speakers don't know the meaning of the phrases they use.

Getting back to the substance of the discussion, isn't your objection based on the lack of mechanical diversity among the core gangs? And again, isn't the counterpoint that it's the integrity of the setting itself that is most important? It seems to me that it's not that hard to define the setting because it amounts to the original release.

You said I was uneducated because I didn't know a particular English phrase. That's a personal attack and is based on nationalism, therefore hate speech. Maybe ask a mod who isn't strongly invested in the topic for their opinion?

 Manchu wrote:

Getting back to the substance of the discussion, isn't your objection based on the lack of mechanical diversity among the core gangs? And again, isn't the counterpoint that it's the integrity of the setting itself that is most important? It seems to me that it's not that hard to define the setting because it amounts to the original release.

What integrity? There is no integrity. That's what I am saying. Most of the official supplements don't conform to what you guys say is "real Necromunda". We have Ash Wastes that moved the setting outside the hive, we have rules for Tyranids, Chaos, Orks... Eldar hired guns that got actual models specific to Necromunda... So I don't know why you're so hung up on something that was never really a thing. People always want to add stuff. The most popular Necromunda rebuild out there is Inquisimunda, guess what it does? It adds all 40k factions in a setting where it makes sense for them to meet, obviously this isn't the Underhive. My own Gangs of Nu Ork does the same. And that's what you should be looking at if you want to see what I want.

To me, Necromunda isn't a place. It's a gaming experience. A particular system for high-detail, low-lethality skirmishes in the grimdark 40k setting with an involved campaign system for model advancement. You can play Ewoks vs Mars Attacks in there for all I care and it'll still be Necromunda as long as the feel is the same.

I already know the 40k setting. I don't need to be spoonfed. I don't need GW to hold my hand like some who want a re-release just because they feel like they're not allowed to play the game because it's out of print. I want new material. I have every published bit of Necromunda (and Gorkamorka) and most of the models for all gangs. I'm good on old stuff. I don't need another 30 Eschers. Give me the variety of SWA (and preferably much more) with the complexity of the original campaign system, give me new factions, new terrain, new planets. Make it so all the old material is a subset of the new setting so... nostalgia-mongers... can just continue to play as they always did without losing anything... apart from being triggered by others having badwrongfun and so on.

Necromunda is my all time favourite GW game. Massive collection of original metal minis (what's wrong with metal? I love metal minis) Would be much more likely to play Necromunda on any given opportunity than 40k or any other GW game for that matter. Its an all time classic.

Agreed, some scenarios were crummy and we never played the roll to see what scenario you're playing rules, we just play what scenario we want and most often make up our own. So yes a big reboot on scenarios would be excellent.

And I wouldn't mind seeing an update on house weapons lists and skill tables. I'm a big fan of house weapons lists as it really made an impact on fighting style for each gang that just wasn't there back when skill availability was the only difference between houses. I could even see a few house specific recruitment or post battle variations being introduced too just to flesh things out even more.

And I also agree that many of the items on sale were crummy and overpriced. But you know that was half the fun sometimes. As champaign manager I'd dole out some of the more obscure items in bonus loot counters for free and laugh when they came into play in often game changing circumstances. They could be game changers but it was often more sensible to hire and arm a Juve than waste your creds on the chance. But I'm sure in the 20 odd years its been since the original game was written there's been plenty of new fangled wotsits that might show up at the trading post.

Then there's XP. Correct me if I'm wrong but you get 5xp for every wounding hit you inflict. And if you're in close combat rolling well you can often land multiple hits that wound and follow-up into another combat and do the same. Before you know it Jimmy Juve has tripled his XP in one game and is now tougher, a crack shot and an upcoming candidate for Gang leader! I used to cap the available XP for wounding hits in our champaign to three hits per game +15xp being a suitable bonus on top of your D6 for surviving.

Then I always wanted Juves to have something to do post battle so I drew up a Juve capers table for them to roll on. If you wanted to risk it for more XP.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who'd love to see all their house rules integrated into a Necromunda reboot.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
@lord_Blackfang- Ewoks vs Mars Attacks? Lets do it! Nub Yub!

Friend of mine had a good idea for what Juves can do after a game: Go back to recover lost equipment, only there's a chance they get killed/eaten when they do.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
Most of the official supplements don't conform to what you guys say is "real Necromunda". [...] So I don't know why you're so hung up on something that was never really a thing.

Eventual expansions may well broaden the scope of a product line - that doesn't mean that the core brand "was never really a thing." The reasons this discussion is happening at all are (1) BB is the only Boxed Game so far to have significant expansion beyond launch and (2) SWA is not Necromunda (which is fine, too; I love SWA). People ITT understand that a Necromunda release could well be "one and done" - and therefore, if there is only one shot, the hope is that it will be the core brand of Necromunda ... which (again, what is the name of this game?) is about certain factions battling over territory in a certain hive.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I'm good on old stuff. I don't need another 30 Eschers.

Then you are not the target demographic for Specialist Games.

 Manchu wrote:
Seems like you must also be mistakenly relying on random Google hits for the definition of "hate speech." As the person aggressively asserting strawman positions, you are hardly the victim here. And kindly refrain from citing Google to smugly suggest native speakers don't know the meaning of the phrases they use.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
You said I was uneducated because I didn't know a particular English phrase. That's a personal attack and is based on nationalism, therefore hate speech. Maybe ask a mod who isn't strongly invested in the topic for their opinion?

Do you know what a strawman argument is? It is where you assert that someone has taken a position, which they actually have not, for the sake of attacking them: for example, accusing me of "hate speech" based (somehow?) on "nationalism" because I objected to your facially ignorant claim that HBMC (an Australian) and I (an American) don't know how to use the phrase "bad faith" properly. To borrow a phrase from another poster ITT, "You got caught making a pedantically arrogant and dismissive statement. Life goes on, take your licks and roll with it." This isn't the only strawman you have made ITT, either - which is how we have even come to this point.