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Digging the Libby dread

Me too. Glad I've got one painted up!

My only question is if the psychic powers that effect friendly blood angels units within 12" (Shield of Sanguinius & Unleash Rage) can target themselves. It seems to me they can, as the Psyker is a friendly Blood Angels unit within the range in question. I've had discussion with a few friends locally that disagree, stating the psyker cannot target himself with ether buffing power as it doesn't explicitly say the power can do so.

That said, I'm of the opinion the powers can effect any unit inside of 12", including the Psyker himself.

Just figured I'd pose the question. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Fenris-77 wrote:
The Baal...

WS 6+ BS * (I dunno why) S6 T7 W11 Ld8 Sv 3+

Twin AC or Flamestorm turret, HB of HF sponsons

Overcharged Engines - roll 2d6 for Advance and pick the highest

Flamestorm is Rng 8" Assault D6, S6 AP-2 D2
TAC is Range 24" Hvy 12 6/-1/1

Thank you!

So it looks like the Flamestorm Baal is once again the subpar option (presumably as I can't see the points cost in comparison the the TLAC since no pic will load). Overcharged engines have had a MASSIVE nerf, as the whole point of them was that they could move faster whilst shooting. With The new rule it completely changes the playstyle of the Baal, Vindi etc - a more appropriate rule would have been something like +2" movement and don't suffer -1 to hit from movement.
The AC version has 300% the range of the FS, gets (im assuming BS3+ before damage) 8 hits on average compared to 3.5, only has 1 ap less and 0.5 damage less. The FS better be cheap in comparison!

The thing is the flamestorm cannon can be fired at full effect even while advancing (with the bonus dice for the advancing roll helping) since you don't care about -1 to hit; you hit automatically! Sadly Heavy Flamers are back to being Heavy so they cannot fire if you advance. But, tradeoffs are what they are

So you move 12" (So long as you haven't been depleted below 6 wounds) with further advance roll of 2D6, taking the highest roll of the two dice, the have an 8" range to do 1D6 automatic hits from the turret gun at ST6, -2 AP and 2 damage per hit.

Pretty beastly.

Baal Predators are also a little over 100 points points base cost before adding weapons in, which you have to pay for a Twinlinked assault cannon minimum, as that's what comes on the tank by default) making the tank just under 145 points base cost (no sponsons). The Flamestorm Cannon appears to be five points cheaper than the Twin Assault Cannon, so that cuts the cost just under 140 points for a turret Flamestorm Cannon and no sponson weaponry.

Adding in sponsons increases the cost by between about 20 and about 40 points depending on what pair of sponson weapons you choose to go with.

Hopefully that helps. Both will have their uses. I foresee a Baal predator kitted out with an all fire build being able to inflict withering casualties to large hordes of models like Ork Mobs or large squads of Gaunts, etc.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Ah, assault weapons can shoot despite an advance move? Interesting... I missed that one.
No idea why they would change a heavy flamer to heavy despite the name... if anything could be deemed an assault weapon, surely flamers of all types are it.
I'm assuming the heavy flamers are the 20point option due to their range and being unable to fire when advancing?
So 160pts seems reasonable from what I've seen so far... although with a Razorback with TLAC being 100pts (35 + 65 from what I've heard right?), I can't see the Baal of either variety doing anywhere near as much damage per point. Granted they will be more durable, but also lose transport capacity that a Razor has. 2 Flamestorms to come in at slightly more expensive with sponsoons and slightly less expensive without, compared to 3 targets that will put down 36 st6 shots at 300% the range (albeit with 1ap less and .5 damage less on average), I just can't see the logic of not just taking Razors instead of Baals if that's the case.

How about flying Librarian Dreads?

Poly Ranger wrote:Ah, assault weapons can shoot despite an advance move? Interesting... I missed that one.
No idea why they would change a heavy flamer to heavy despite the name... if anything could be deemed an assault weapon, surely flamers of all types are it.
I'm assuming the heavy flamers are the 20point option due to their range and being unable to fire when advancing?
So 160pts seems reasonable from what I've seen so far... although with a Razorback with TLAC being 100pts (35 + 65 from what I've heard right?), I can't see the Baal of either variety doing anywhere near as much damage per point. Granted they will be more durable, but also lose transport capacity that a Razor has. 2 Flamestorms to come in at slightly more expensive with sponsoons and slightly less expensive without, compared to 3 targets that will put down 36 st6 shots at 300% the range (albeit with 1ap less and .5 damage less on average), I just can't see the logic of not just taking Razors instead of Baals if that's the case.

Actually you've got it backwards. The Heavy Flamer is the more expensive option. Heavy bolters clock in at ~20 points for the pair and heavy flamers clock in at ~40 points for the pair. Despite the short range they have much higher damage potential over Heavy Bolters (6 hits possible versus 12 possible on the Heavy Flamer.).

Baal Preds will be much more durable vs Razorbacks I suspect, but if you're wanting just a Twin Assault Cannon then the Razorback will likely be your cheapest option to field one.

wuestenfux wrote:How about flying Librarian Dreads?

Unless they're being deployed from a Storm Raven or hopping out of a Drop Pod, I don't think this is going to come into play. We shall see though.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Wonder if you can still shoot with two weapons out of a rhino and shoot with heavy flamer even after movement. Now that you can put two units inside a rhino. I'm already planning two 5 man tacs with heavy flamers in one rhino and two tacs with (multi)meltas in another. Thats allready 4 out of 6 compulsory troop choices for the brigade. Drop pods seems to have more of an dread transport role. Wonder if unit from a drop pod can be olaced closer than 9" after disembark.. Has a big difference with certain weapons. I'm struggling to figure out what fast slots to take for Ba and brigade..

 Fenris-77 wrote:
The Baal...

WS 6+ BS * (I dunno why) S6 T7 W11 Ld8 Sv 3+

* is usually there because of degration that W11+ models tend to have. You sure there wasnt' degration chart there as well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Xirax wrote:
Wonder if you can still shoot with two weapons out of a rhino and shoot with heavy flamer even after movement. Now that you can put two units inside a rhino. I'm already planning two 5 man tacs with heavy flamers in one rhino and two tacs with (multi)meltas in another. Thats allready 4 out of 6 compulsory troop choices for the brigade. Drop pods seems to have more of an dread transport role. Wonder if unit from a drop pod can be olaced closer than 9" after disembark.. Has a big difference with certain weapons. I'm struggling to figure out what fast slots to take for Ba and brigade..

Drop pods can transport infantry. Dreadnought!=infantry. No more podding dreadnoughts it seems. And units out of pod needs to be more than 9" away. Pod is now 103 pts deep strike upgrade basically(plus extra immobile unit to take objectives). And no bespoken rule on rhino to say stuff can shoot out and no mention of firepoints so looks like no more shooting out of rhinos.

Oh,
I've totally missed any rules leaks about drop pods.. Seems a big downtune to fragiosos with frag cannon and heavy flamer. Hope that stormraven can drop a dread still.

Awfully expensive a drop pod, if it can't transport a dread, can't score? and must be dropped over 9" away.

This makes jump pack units with T1 precision deepstrike much more handy. Melta has a 12" range even without that melta rule it can still be spammed with small suicide assault marines. Ok, T1 drop pod with two squads of multi-melta & combi-melta tacticals will damage something.

Well, we'll see how it goes in the end. Can't wait!

Baal Pred does degrade.

As it loses wounds it gets slower (from 12" to 6" to 3") worse BS (from 3+ to 4+ to 5+) and fewer attacks (From 3 to D3 to 1).

Has it been confirmed that disembarking units from a Drop Pod must e further than 9" from an enemy unit? Also was it confirmed that Dreadnoughts cannot deploy from Pods as well?

I was under the impression that the Drop Pod had to be further than 9" from an enemy unit per the new Deep Strike rules, but that you then had to disembark up to 3" from an access point (all 5 sides of a Drop Pod being access points) so you'd be further than 9" away, then disembarking 3" means you'd be further than 6" away, putting you in range of standard and heavy flamer weapons and able to charge if you rolled a 7 or more on the charge 2D6.

I freely admit I may be incorrect on this, but that was my impression. That would justify the new, much steeper point cost for Drop Pods also.

We'll see I suppose. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

 Red__Thirst wrote:

Has it been confirmed that disembarking units from a Drop Pod must e further than 9" from an enemy unit? Also was it confirmed that Dreadnoughts cannot deploy from Pods as well?

It specifically says disembarked must be more than 9". And note how it specifies INFANTRY(and then excludes jump, terminator, terminator and primaris) for what it can transport. No mention of dreadnought. So unless dreadnought has infantry keyword it can't fit in. If it has and no restriction in dreadnought datasheet you would be able to fit 10 dreadnought into drop pod...

Yep, Drop Pods are still somewhat useful but they certainly cannot be abused any more in the same way as they could.

Good to know. I've got one built and one waiting to be built. They'll both still see use, but in different ways now for sure. (Melta delivery systems rather than flamers) My Flamer/combiflamer/heavy flamer tactical squad will probably find themselves cruising in a rhino more often than not.

Interesting times to be sure. Thanks for sharing the datafile on the drop pod. Hadn't seen it yet.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I think GW have dropped the ball on the HB vs HF pricing. Yes within 8" the heavy flamer will get 7 hits on average compared to 4 but it will be shooting less over the course of the game, it means you have less choice on positioning of your Baal if you want to utilize it's weapons and even more importantly, opens up the Baal to melta/rapid fire/charge ranges with no trouble at all for the opponent. So to be costed more let alone double what heavy bolters cost is utterly absurd.

I agree - heavy flamers should probably be costed the same as the HBs, certainly not more. Fortunately mine were set up with the HBs though

I imagine screening tanks will be a big issue in this edition. If a baal pred gets charged then it'll lose a whole turn of firepower. Not ideal with a 24 inch gun when melee units are moving so fast this edition. Might need to use some allied conscipts to screen them...

I too prefer a dakka Baal Pred (Assault Cannons and Heavy Bolters) over the flamestorm variant. Just always seemed more thematic to have the tank zipping across the field unloading bucketloads of bullets into enemy targets.

My next question is does the Space Marine Captain Entry (with Jump Pack) Have an option to increase his save from 3+ to 2+ at all outside of being in Terminator armor.

Is there an artificer armor upgrade option, or does a Captain not wearing terminator armor have access to a 2+ save at all?

I always preferred my Captain wearing artificer armor, and hope I can still field him that way. Time will tell, I suppose.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

And with the recent space marine leaks, it looks like the Captain entry does not have the capacity to have Artificer Armor or a 2+ save without wearing Terminator armor.

I'm a little bummed about that, but I can still build my captain out in all other respects (including wearing a Death Mask) so, I'm not terribly bothered overall. If that's my only complaint, I think we'll be doing okay on the Blood Angels front.

Now to keep building and painting. These scouts aren't going to paint themselves.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

given HQs have more wounds, and ID isn't a thing, going from 2+/4++ to 3+/4++ should be survivable. survivability will now have a draw back, of reduced mobility. this is proably a good thing, as noi more 2+/3++ bike captains.

Most of my lists recently have revolved around Fragnoughts and Flamer Tactical squads in pods.

How will you guys be planning on delivering these units (particularly your Furiosos) now with the changes to drop pod disembarkation?

Personally, I've never liked bringing them in on Ravens. Always seemed risky, potentially late and points heavy. Any changes in 8th which mitigate the risks?

BrianDavion wrote:
given HQs have more wounds, and ID isn't a thing, going from 2+/4++ to 3+/4++ should be survivable. survivability will now have a draw back, of reduced mobility. this is proably a good thing, as noi more 2+/3++ bike captains.

I agree, Brian. I do not mind losing one point of armor save in the long run generally speaking. He still has his Iron Halo, so he'll be as survivable as most any other character out there sporting a similar save or item.

I don't mind artificer armor being reserved for more unique and named characters either. Makes sense that it should be somewhat rare as well, to be honest.

My main thing is I want my Captain to be able to have a hand flamer (rule of cool), a relic blade or similar style unique sword (He's the Keeper of the Arsenal, after all!) a jump pack and a death mask. He can have all of these things, so I'm more than content.

My captain just has a really cool looking set of power armor now. I'm ok with this.

Now to figure out how to build my list with the match play point systems. I'm wondering if you have to buy wargear that's listed on the unit's sheet, or only pay for upgrades.

Example:

Librarian Dreadnought says it comes with a Force Halberd and a Furioso Fist and a Storm Bolter. You can upgrade the Storm Bolter to a Meltagun, or a Heavy Flamer. It also says the base cost is without wargear (I assume weapons included in wargear)

The listing has a Force Halberd at 0 points, but the Furioso Fist is showing 40 points for a single fist, plus a storm bolter is 2 points on top of that (Mine has a Heavy Flamer at 17 points on top of that, which is how I have my model armed/equipped).

Do you pay for the base model at ~150 points, then pay for a ~40 point Furioso Fist (To bring it to correct armament) then pay 2 points for a Storm Bolter, making the thing close to 200 points base?

Or do you pay ~150 points for the bare-bones equipment, Force Halberd, Furioso Fist + Storm Bolter, and then if you want to upgrade the Storm Bolter you pay the requisite ~20 points for a Heavy Flamer or Meltagun, making the thing just a shade under 170?

I've seen people discussing this back and forth, and I'm rather confused by it, as it will make a BIG difference in points at the end of the list building process.

Guess we'll wait and see. Hopefully it's covered in the codexes regarding matched play and how these points and building armies with them interact.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alanmckenzie wrote:
Most of my lists recently have revolved around Fragnoughts and Flamer Tactical squads in pods.

How will you guys be planning on delivering these units (particularly your Furiosos) now with the changes to drop pod disembarkation?

Personally, I've never liked bringing them in on Ravens. Always seemed risky, potentially late and points heavy. Any changes in 8th which mitigate the risks?

It's interesting, as I very much enjoyed bringing a pod with flamer death down most every game I played with my Blood Angels.

I've had to radically change how I'm building my list (which isn't a big deal, my army is rather small still so far since I've been re-building it). I was building toward a descent of angels style list, with everything deploying in a pod, a storm raven, or via Jump Packs (with the exception of my infiltrating scouts) and now that half your force must start on the board, that will have to be shifted a bit. Not that I mind terribly, to be honest. I've just gotta come up with some other ideas and means to get things worked out

Now? I'm still going to be using the Pods, but I will be putting other squads with different weapons in them. My next tactical squad will be a melta-heavy team (combi-melta, meltagun, and Multimelta) and my eventual devastator squad will be sporting 4x Multimeltas as well. The combi-flamer, flamer, heavy flamer squad will likely ride in a rhino now and hunt soft targets.

I still plan on fielding a Storm Raven, and will be using it to deploy my Librarian Dreadnought and possibly my Death Company + Lemartes, depending on how it works.

Currently my plan for a list is two tactical squads (one in a pod, one in a rhino), one scout squad, maybe a squad of Primaris Marines (why not?), a Librarian Dread, Lemartes, Death Company, Assault Squad, Storm Raven, Devastator Squad (in a pod), Jump Pack Veterans (honor guard) with a Sanguinary Novitiate and a Company Champion attached, and a Captain. I may also add in a single extra HQ choice for a second jump pack librarian. Essentially a Demi-company with support elements. I may also try and squeeze in some Sanguinary Guard too, because they're some of my favorite models.

We'll see. It's going to be interesting, that's for sure.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

You have a weapon, you pay for it so in your case you pay the fist.

 Red__Thirst wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alanmckenzie wrote:
Most of my lists recently have revolved around Fragnoughts and Flamer Tactical squads in pods.

How will you guys be planning on delivering these units (particularly your Furiosos) now with the changes to drop pod disembarkation?

Personally, I've never liked bringing them in on Ravens. Always seemed risky, potentially late and points heavy. Any changes in 8th which mitigate the risks?

It's interesting, as I very much enjoyed bringing a pod with flamer death down most every game I played with my Blood Angels.

I've had to radically change how I'm building my list (which isn't a big deal, my army is rather small still so far since I've been re-building it). I was building toward a descent of angels style list, with everything deploying in a pod, a storm raven, or via Jump Packs (with the exception of my infiltrating scouts) and now that half your force must start on the board, that will have to be shifted a bit. Not that I mind terribly, to be honest. I've just gotta come up with some other ideas and means to get things worked out

Now? I'm still going to be using the Pods, but I will be putting other squads with different weapons in them. My next tactical squad will be a melta-heavy team (combi-melta, meltagun, and Multimelta) and my eventual devastator squad will be sporting 4x Multimeltas as well. The combi-flamer, flamer, heavy flamer squad will likely ride in a rhino now and hunt soft targets.

I still plan on fielding a Storm Raven, and will be using it to deploy my Librarian Dreadnought and possibly my Death Company + Lemartes, depending on how it works.

Currently my plan for a list is two tactical squads (one in a pod, one in a rhino), one scout squad, maybe a squad of Primaris Marines (why not?), a Librarian Dread, Lemartes, Death Company, Assault Squad, Storm Raven, Devastator Squad (in a pod), Jump Pack Veterans (honor guard) with a Sanguinary Novitiate and a Company Champion attached, and a Captain. I may also add in a single extra HQ choice for a second jump pack librarian. Essentially a Demi-company with support elements. I may also try and squeeze in some Sanguinary Guard too, because they're some of my favorite models.

We'll see. It's going to be interesting, that's for sure.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Thanks for your thoughts.

I think my flamey tac squad will now be zooming around in a rhino too. My other tac squad is armed with a heavy bolter, plasma gun, combi plasma. So I could see them comandeering that drop pod. I think that could work. I also have a Plasma Cannon Dev squad in the works, that could be an option as well. And a combi melta sternguard squad which would certainly work. Could get expensive that one though.

I think my plan now will likely revolve around those two tactical squads in their respective transports, and a Death Company squad, either in a Land Raider with chaplain or librarian, or Deep Striking with Lemartes (magnetised jump packs ). And then a number of Landspeeders buzzing around.

I could either fit this into the Outrider Detachment or into a Battalion Detachment (with a 3rd small tac squad in Razorback) .

I quite like the look of this.

I'm actually seeing lots of interesting, fun lists I can build, unfortunately I'm struggling to fit my beloved fragnoughts into them, but yeah, certainly interesting.

Cheers


Edited because I fethed up the quote

I'm probably going to run my Primaris as Blood Angels. I hope they make an upgrade pack at some point because I want another Lieutenant with nipple armor. I don't like the one without a helmet.

Right now, I'm leaning toward the following list:

Captain with a jump pack

Librarian Dreadnought (Or, librarian with a jump pack)

Lemartes

Death Company with jump packs

'Honor Guard' consisting of 3x company veterans w/ jump packs and storm shields + 1 power fist, with an attached Novitiate and Company Champion

2x Tactical squads, one in a rhino (Flamers all around) One in a drop pod (melta all around)

1x Scout squad (pistols & blades + meltabomb on sgt., fairly bare-bones)

Assault Squad w/ 2x meltaguns, one evicerator, and a sgt. w/ an inferno pistol and Power Sword or power axe (leaning toward sword)

Storm Raven (transporting either the Captain + Honor Guard squad or Lemartes and Death Company, along with the Librarian Dreadnought, maybe)

Devastator Squad, possibly in a drop pod of their own with 4x multimeltas.

All squads save the scouts, death company and honor guard are 10 models strong.

We'll see what changes as I playtest, but that's the goal so far.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I feel like Primaris Blood Angels could make a really devastating, fast moving dakka force. Force org that has 3 heavy support 1 HQ, Librarian Dread as HQ, 3 Baal Predators and a squad or two of inceptors.

All dread lists are possible for us!

Hey,
Am I seeing it right, the option to take two melta guns with assault marines is gone. GW said that you can field your current models in the 8th ed. as well, but having hard time seeing how to get my assault marines with jump packs and melta guns fielded.

Or is this just a mirage?

Oh...

Hmm...Lucius Pattern Drop Pods...hope they have rules to carry a Dread.

 alanmckenzie wrote:
Most of my lists recently have revolved around Fragnoughts and Flamer Tactical squads in pods.

How will you guys be planning on delivering these units (particularly your Furiosos) now with the changes to drop pod disembarkation?

Personally, I've never liked bringing them in on Ravens. Always seemed risky, potentially late and points heavy. Any changes in 8th which mitigate the risks?

I think it's pretty obvious a new plastic drop pod is coming, probably as part of the Primaris releases (as they can't travel in regular drop pods either).

In the meantime, using Stormravens as an assault transport is a whole lot better than before. Stormravens start on the table now, and you don't have to swap between Supersonic and Hover modes to disembark. Just get out before the Stormraven moves. You'll generally have your Dreads in assault turn 2.

Stormravens have also had a massive boost in shooting too with the changes to Twin Linked, they're proper gunships putting out an impressive amount of firepower. The price hasn't changed that much either (10-20pts more expensive) which is a bargain when compared to Razors, Land Raiders etc
Seriously, Stormravens seem to be the most improved unit (whilst also balancing out some the flyer stupidness from 6th/7th) BA can take. My BA will definitely have an aircav theme for 8th ed

Agreed on that Bartali.

I had already planned on getting a Storm Raven for my heavy firepower needs and this only further reinforces that plan.

Hell, I may deploy my flamer tactical squad from the storm raven at this point. Not sure yet.

We'll get the rules in hand soon and start spitballing from there.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-