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Pottsey wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
“So i can outright say-a team of stealth suits with 2 fusions, and 4 burst cannons should not really be able to take down a rhino, as that takes 9 fusion blasters to accomplish.

With rerolls of 1 AND being in half range, 2 fusions and 4 bursts should do about 2.5 wounds on average to a rhino.”

That seems wrong although I dont have a spreadsheet for 8th yet. On average I would expact 1 fusion wounding per volley and that fusion alone would do around 4 to 5 damage per wound at half range. Then the burst cannons on top. If both fusions hit on the same turn with burst cannons you expact to do over 10 damage that volly and bow the rino up. If I am wrong please explain where so I can learn.

Think of it generally, you're looking at 2 fusion shots and 16 burst shots per shooting turn, with sliiiiightly-better-than-half accuracy, which need to wound, get through armor, and roll damage (where applicable). Realistically, you're looking at 1 fusion hit and 9 or 10 burst cannon hits per shooting round. Against a Rhino, you're now looking at 2/3 of a fusion wound and roughly 3 burst cannon wounds (of which, 2 will be saved by the Rhino).

Fusion within half range average approximately 4.5 damage per roll. Overall damage is thus expected to be 4.5 x (2/3) +1 ~=4 wounds. Not sure where BoomWolf got his math, but its possible I missed a step in there...

As for drones I apologize big time. I see what you mean which means all my other numbers are way off. It also means when I was last playing against nids with half my army as drones and the rest as fusion I won without using half my drone shots! So I am still confused at why people are saying nids are one of the hardest to play against as Tau.

Drones are just that awesome. As I mentioned, they also have a high potential - they can be outputting 5 or 6 (depends on rule interpretation) BS 3+ (reroll 1s) pulse shots a turn for so few points a pop, on a reasonably durable platform, with reasonable speed... and they're cheap enough that sacrificing them as ablative wounds for infantry and battlesuits (because sometimes you need 4 BS2+ Fusions more than 2+ Pulse Carbines).

As long as you keep away from the bad units like the railguns and Riptide Tau seem pretty good this edition. Although I do agree half the Tau codex is bad.

Mostly agreeable sentiment, but then, that's part of what we're trying to do here in this thread: Sort the wheat from the chaff, find the gems in the rough, and generally figure out what works for Tau when, and why.

Part of that process is going through the potential gems and trying to find not only their overall worth (their tier) but their unique value (what they can do in the right circumstances).

That's all we're trying to do here: figure out the proper tools that COULD be used for the job, and determining which among those tools is best, whether that's generally, in specific circumstances, or rarely both.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Minor rules question. I don't play Tau but faced them for the first time this weekend and was doing some reading today on them. Found some....oddities.

A commander can have 4 guns....seems fair, but whatever. I figured fusion blaster, plasma rifle, missile pod, burst cannon...you know the standard Crisis loadouts.

What is stopping me (aside from common sense and a sense of fair-play) from paying 244 points and putting 4 cluster rocket systems on him? 16D6 S5 shots? At BS 2+?

Or 4 railguns? 228 points for 4 railgun shots on a "character" platform so he can lurk behind troops?

Am I missing something here? Tell me I'm wrong, please.

Commanders (and all suits) only have access to the ranged weapons list which only includes the usual suit weapons (plasma, fusion, burst, ion blaster, AFP, flamer, and missiles)

Have no fear of railguns on suits or cluster rockets on anything but a surge.

 Carnage43 wrote:

What is stopping me (aside from common sense and a sense of fair-play) from paying 244 points and putting 4 cluster rocket systems on him? 16D6 S5 shots? At BS 2+?

The rules of the unit, a crisis commander can put 4 weapons on him, but all of them must be from the section "ranged weapons and support system". Here you have a limited selection of weapons, not all the tau weapons, you know, mostly "the standard Crisis loadouts".
Your commander can put 16 S5 shots, but not 16D6 S5, unless, of course, he use a Ta'Unar suit, those robots are so absurdly cramped with weapons to blush an ork engineer.

 Carnage43 wrote:
Minor rules question. I don't play Tau but faced them for the first time this weekend and was doing some reading today on them. Found some....oddities.

A commander can have 4 guns....seems fair, but whatever. I figured fusion blaster, plasma rifle, missile pod, burst cannon...you know the standard Crisis loadouts.

What is stopping me (aside from common sense and a sense of fair-play) from paying 244 points and putting 4 cluster rocket systems on him? 16D6 S5 shots? At BS 2+?

Or 4 railguns? 228 points for 4 railgun shots on a "character" platform so he can lurk behind troops?

Am I missing something here? Tell me I'm wrong, please.

If its anything like the SM book it will say you may take items for the X weapon list which lists what weapons you can take

otherwise i would be mounting 4 hammer head rail cannons on that bastard.


damnit ninjaed

Theoryhammer aside, Tau have outperformed every other army I've seen played so far. The list:

IG, with 2 conscripts blobs
Nids
Space Wolves (undefeated against everything not Tau)
Vanilla Marines
Eldar 1-(Avatar, squads, and psykers) 2-(aspects)

Tau look good. Commanders are nasty and flexible. Kroot and FW have great troop synergy. Drones fit their role well, fluff and tabletop-wise. Triple flamer suit units dropped with a Homing Beacon are versatile, nasty, and can wreck an assault. Drop them and Commanders behind an army charging your static shooting. They can destroy enemy big guns, or the second wave of an assault. Between screens and Fall Back, you can absolutely run a combined arms force that has the flexibility to win different missions and match up against different army types.

Is it just me, or are skyrays unable to perform the air defense role they're built with under the new rules.

You get six seeker missiles. Assuming you've got markerlight hits and they all hit their target, that's six wounds, total. It's nice that you get to inflict a mortal wound, ignoring armor and invul saves, but six total wounds doesn't cut it anymore - you can't kill any real vehicle with six wounds. (Sure, you can take out an ork buggy, trading your 150 point tank for their 75 point one)

Ork fighters, pretty much flying wrecks, have 12 wounds. A Flying Hive Tyrant has 10. These used to be a Skyray's bread and butter targets. Now, it can't take either one out.

What reason is there to take this tank now?

 Redbeard wrote:
Is it just me, or are skyrays unable to perform the air defense role they're built with under the new rules.

You get six seeker missiles. Assuming you've got markerlight hits and they all hit their target, that's six wounds, total. It's nice that you get to inflict a mortal wound, ignoring armor and invul saves, but six total wounds doesn't cut it anymore - you can't kill any real vehicle with six wounds. (Sure, you can take out an ork buggy, trading your 150 point tank for their 75 point one)

Ork fighters, pretty much flying wrecks, have 12 wounds. A Flying Hive Tyrant has 10. These used to be a Skyray's bread and butter targets. Now, it can't take either one out.

What reason is there to take this tank now?

I have to agree. Skyrays are trash. But, if you can get a bead on a character, slap a couple of markerlights on him...

Very iffy, but a possible use. I'm still not planning on running Skyrays myself.

 Redbeard wrote:
Is it just me, or are skyrays unable to perform the air defense role they're built with under the new rules.

You get six seeker missiles. Assuming you've got markerlight hits and they all hit their target, that's six wounds, total. It's nice that you get to inflict a mortal wound, ignoring armor and invul saves, but six total wounds doesn't cut it anymore - you can't kill any real vehicle with six wounds. (Sure, you can take out an ork buggy, trading your 150 point tank for their 75 point one)

Ork fighters, pretty much flying wrecks, have 12 wounds. A Flying Hive Tyrant has 10. These used to be a Skyray's bread and butter targets. Now, it can't take either one out.

What reason is there to take this tank now?

Skyrays are the worst now
I'm disappointed because they have been my favorites for a long time.

Seeker Missiles need to be d3 Mortal Wounds to be anywhere near viable. Even then it's questionable.
The silliest aspect of the Skyray? It costs 2 more points than the Hammerhead

or maybe the Skyray regenerated 3 Seeker Missiles every turn.

xmbk wrote:
Theoryhammer aside, Tau have outperformed every other army I've seen played so far. The list:

IG, with 2 conscripts blobs
Nids
Space Wolves (undefeated against everything not Tau)
Vanilla Marines
Eldar 1-(Avatar, squads, and psykers) 2-(aspects)

Tau look good. Commanders are nasty and flexible. Kroot and FW have great troop synergy. Drones fit their role well, fluff and tabletop-wise. Triple flamer suit units dropped with a Homing Beacon are versatile, nasty, and can wreck an assault. Drop them and Commanders behind an army charging your static shooting. They can destroy enemy big guns, or the second wave of an assault. Between screens and Fall Back, you can absolutely run a combined arms force that has the flexibility to win different missions and match up against different army types.

I am curious what this Space Wolf players list looked like?

Thanks for explaining everything Unusual Suspect.

Now I know most consider broadsides poor but could 1 single broadside with early warning system be good under certain circumstances? As far as I can see there is no limit to how often the override can trigger per turn so if a lot of units deep strikes that’s a lot of extra shots. Also spore mines when they miss count as a unit being setup mid battle so you can wipe them out for free without wasting other units.

The EWO is good. On a stormsurge it's really good. In fact I'd say it's the one possible justification for taking a surge. With a shield generator, ATS, EWO and pulse driver cannon the stormsurge ought to do some good, sat on an objective somewhere.

The trouble with putting it on a broadside is that it wants an ATS and the firepower it has on its own probably isn't enough. You'll deter scions but not much more.

Pottsey wrote:
Thanks for explaining everything Unusual Suspect.

Now I know most consider broadsides poor but could 1 single broadside with early warning system be good under certain circumstances? As far as I can see there is no limit to how often the override can trigger per turn so if a lot of units deep strikes that’s a lot of extra shots. Also spore mines when they miss count as a unit being setup mid battle so you can wipe them out for free without wasting other units.

EWO is the only thing that makes Broadsides still viable

Even if it doesn't get a shot off, if it acted a deterrent that pushed enemies away it succeeded

Well, the results of the first few ITC tournaments of 8th are in and the doom and gloom crowd have been subtly rebuked, nor are we top tier.

Tau come in just outside the top 10 (of 34 collected in the data), a crowded space, at about 58 points per player. This is only 202 players worth of data, surely this will change. I think we need to see a larger event like NOVA, with a talented general or two choosing Tau in order to make a real judgment.

106,4 Adeptus Ministorum 1

93,5 Knights Renegades 1
91,5 Militarum Tempestus 3
90,4 Grey Knights 3

69,4 Adepta Sororitas 6
68,3 Chaos 6
65,7 Imperium 7
64,2 Chaos Daemons 7
61,2 Death Watch 2

58,7 Dark Eldar 6
58,2 Tau Empire 11
57,7 Tyranids 17
56,9 Death Guard 3
56,1 Ynnari 7
55,8 Dark Angels 5
54,8 Cult Mechanicus 5
52 Harlequins 8
51,5 Adeptus Astartes 11
51,3 Aeldari 6
50,8 World Eaters 2
50,5 Genesteler Cult 4

49,6 Necrons 13
49,6 Imperial Knights 3
49,4 Ultramarines 3
48,5 Astra Militarum 13
46,3 Blood Angels 13
42,7 Space Wolves 5
40,6 Orks 14
40,3 Chaos Space Marines 12

32,5 Thousand Sons 1
32,5 Asuryani 1
32,5 Imperial Fists 1
31,7 Adeptus Costudes 1
31,3 Skitarii 1

For now, I maintain my stance that Tau are competitive in 8th, perhaps with a narrower selection for competitive list construction than some other factions. Once again, I stress to the doom and gloom crowd that we couldn't scratch the top tier Daemon/Imperial Soup builds of last edition so even if many of our units have been nerfed, we should be pleased to at least have a shot in this edition even if it's a long shot measured against Militarum Tempestus or Knights.

The data becomes more promising if you take GW at their word and consider that points updates will be coming in the codices to regress the statistical outliers at present to the mean. For example, despite Orks being declared "Back" they are near the bottom of the per-player scores. The hope in the data however stems from the large pool in the middle of per-player scores hovering between 49-69. This is where most factions live and where GW should want to push those currently at the top and bottom of the curve.

GW has completely overhauled the game. When Sigmar released there was doom and gloom as well. People laughed at how bad the game was. We should fee lucky we've avoided that. Now its core rules are the foundation for both games. It may take an 8th ed 2.0 next year, or simply a gradual release of codices, but I'm confident this is a step in the right direction. We should exercise patience as GW listens to the data, and give them the opportunity to make the necessary tweaks.

like many have pointed out: too few matches to make any statement about army performance.

 Redbeard wrote:
Is it just me, or are skyrays unable to perform the air defense role they're built with under the new rules.

You get six seeker missiles. Assuming you've got markerlight hits and they all hit their target, that's six wounds, total. It's nice that you get to inflict a mortal wound, ignoring armor and invul saves, but six total wounds doesn't cut it anymore - you can't kill any real vehicle with six wounds. (Sure, you can take out an ork buggy, trading your 150 point tank for their 75 point one)

Ork fighters, pretty much flying wrecks, have 12 wounds. A Flying Hive Tyrant has 10. These used to be a Skyray's bread and butter targets. Now, it can't take either one out.

What reason is there to take this tank now?

Sky Rays are now character killers (if you can target them, of course). Although, in great numbers, Sky Rays become much more dangerous (3 of them will fire 18 mortal wounds shots)... But for that price we can take a Y'vahra, for example

Aeri wrote:
like many have pointed out: too few matches to make any statement about army performance.

I agree, but Tau were I think the third most taken army? So one of the larger sample sizes to analyze.

 The Shrike wrote:
Well, the results of the first few ITC tournaments of 8th are in and the doom and gloom crowd have been subtly rebuked, nor are we top tier.

Tau come in just outside the top 10 (of 34 collected in the data), a crowded space, at about 58 points per player. This is only 202 players worth of data, surely this will change. I think we need to see a larger event like NOVA, with a talented general or two choosing Tau in order to make a real judgment.

106,4 Sisters of Battle 1
91,5 Imperial Guard - Tempest 3
90,4 Grey Knights 3
68,3 Chaos 6
65,7 Space Marines 7
64,2 Chaos Daemons 7
58,7 Dark Eldar 6
58,2 Tau Empire 11
57,7 Tyranids 17
51,3 Eldar 6
50,5 Genesteler Cult 4
49,6 Necrons 13
48,5 Imperial Guard
46,3 Blood Angels 13
42,7 Space Wolves 5
40,6 Orks 14
31,3 Skitarii 1

Refined to list only the 'big armies', changed the name of a few of them to their more commonly known names. It's pretty tricky now, since a lot of armies are really open these days.

 Vector Strike wrote:

Sky Rays are now character killers (if you can target them, of course). Although, in great numbers, Sky Rays become much more dangerous (3 of them will fire 18 mortal wounds shots)... But for that price we can take a Y'vahra, for example

I wouldn't be surprised if a Railhead dealt 6 mortal wounds per game...

 The Shrike wrote:

Aeri wrote:
like many have pointed out: too few matches to make any statement about army performance.

I agree, but Tau were I think the third most taken army? So one of the larger sample sizes to analyze.

Seems to be about 8th most taken

Shrike - For us uneducated folk, can you explain how to read the data above?

ArmchairArbiter wrote:


I am curious what this Space Wolf players list looked like?

WG with Arjac
Bjorn
Ven Dread with axe and shield
Iron Priest on wolf
TWC with Canis and Harald

Bjorn is a beast, WG are nasty and Arjac is great support for them, and TWC with char support is a juggernaut. 3++ everywhere.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talamare wrote:

Pottsey wrote:
Thanks for explaining everything Unusual Suspect.

Now I know most consider broadsides poor but could 1 single broadside with early warning system be good under certain circumstances? As far as I can see there is no limit to how often the override can trigger per turn so if a lot of units deep strikes that’s a lot of extra shots. Also spore mines when they miss count as a unit being setup mid battle so you can wipe them out for free without wasting other units.

EWO is the only thing that makes Broadsides still viable

Even if it doesn't get a shot off, if it acted a deterrent that pushed enemies away it succeeded

I've always been partial to the Broads, but they seem overcosted now. Fusion Commanders just seem better for the points, the mobility is a big difference. But if you go static, the Broads can easily be protected by drone/Kroot from deep strikers.

I take it that the second number is the number of players who took the army? In that case sisters of battle seem very good, but not as dominant as the one player getting 104 would appear. IG and GKs look excellent though.

It's very early to be making much analysis of performance. The sample sizes are very small and most people won't have had time to produce new armies.

This applies a lot to Tau, who need quite different stuff to do well under the new system. Fish of Fury is now the way to go, but I only own one devilfish - and 0 breachers! I'm actually in the position that making a good Tau army would effectively mean making a whole new army from scratch - so different would it be to what I have now. That might not be so bad, actually.

I think that the synergy between crisis suits and gun drones might mean that suits continue to be good; possibly better than they were in 7th. Suits with plasma or CIBs provide an alternative source of dakka to breachers. They are pricey, but not outrageously so, don't need to get within 5" to maximise effectiveness and don't require a transport.

I'm curious to see how ghostkeels fit in. I'm not convinced that crisis suits and commanders don't just do the same job, better.

Quick question about stealth drones and Ghostkeels.

There seems to be a big weakness that, because the Stealth Drones (and in fact all drones) count as a separate unit, whats to stop someone just targeting the two stealth drones with some light weapons, killing them, then firing on the Ghostkeel without the -2 modifier?

It seems you'll never get the accumulated -2 to hit defence as its not going to be hard to blow away 2 drones. It's always going to be -1 to hit

Same goes for using gun drones as ablative wounds. they'll be quickly targeted and removed, or am I missing something?

 obsidianaura wrote:
Quick question about stealth drones and Ghostkeels.

There seems to be a big weakness that, because the Stealth Drones (and in fact all drones) count as a separate unit, whats to stop someone just targeting the two stealth drones with some light weapons, killing them, then firing on the Ghostkeel without the -2 modifier?

It seems you'll never get the accumulated -2 to hit defence as its not going to be hard to blow away 2 drones. It's always going to be -1 to hit

Same goes for using gun drones as ablative wounds. they'll be quickly targeted and removed, or am I missing something?

Nothing.

except hiding it behind something so they cant shoot it.

You shouldnt expect to get first blood unless you are going first.

 obsidianaura wrote:
Quick question about stealth drones and Ghostkeels.

There seems to be a big weakness that, because the Stealth Drones (and in fact all drones) count as a separate unit, whats to stop someone just targeting the two stealth drones with some light weapons, killing them, then firing on the Ghostkeel without the -2 modifier?

It seems you'll never get the accumulated -2 to hit defence as its not going to be hard to blow away 2 drones. It's always going to be -1 to hit

Same goes for using gun drones as ablative wounds. they'll be quickly targeted and removed, or am I missing something?

At least for basic drones that doesn’t matter. If the drone is targeted and removed it’s still done the same job as moving a wound from a suit to the drone. Same result either way, the drone gets the wound and dies leaving the suit to blast away.

Suks wrote:
Shrike - For us uneducated folk, can you explain how to read the data above?

Sorry, should have mentioned this in the first post. The first number is the average battle points earned for each player who ran that faction; the second is number of players who took the faction.

I've just been having a look at the Forgeworld index. Cool that they have made an epub version.

XV9s seem decent - at least with some load-outs. The twin-linked burst cannons seem best, though they do provide yet more S5 shooting, which may not be required. You get decent efficiency by putting an ATS on them. The photon launchers that give opponents -2 on their charge ranges makes going within 18" of the enemy (or closer) a lot safer.

Meanwhile the pulse submunitions rifle has a 30" range and strength 6, in exchange for half as many shots as the burst cannons - and is a bit cheaper. I've got a couple of these (made by sticking rail rifles from the TX-42 onto hazard suits). They appear to be reasonably good, though not amazing.

Fusion cascades are an interesting option. You get comparable firepower to a commander, with less range - and obviously not the 2+ BS. They are a fair bit cheaper than commanders though, and you have a support system slot that you could use for a shield generator or DC. Much more expensive than the other guns though.

I'm going to look and see if I can find the twin-burst cannons I didn't use on my suits and maybe stick them on the hazards after all. Might even run the actual TX-42s with the rail rifles, as they seem like decent little toys now.

Mandragola wrote:
I've just been having a look at the Forgeworld index. Cool that they have made an epub version.

XV9s seem decent - at least with some load-outs. The twin-linked burst cannons seem best, though they do provide yet more S5 shooting, which may not be required. You get decent efficiency by putting an ATS on them. The photon launchers that give opponents -2 on their charge ranges makes going within 18" of the enemy (or closer) a lot safer.

Meanwhile the pulse submunitions rifle has a 30" range and strength 6, in exchange for half as many shots as the burst cannons - and is a bit cheaper. I've got a couple of these (made by sticking rail rifles from the TX-42 onto hazard suits). They appear to be reasonably good, though not amazing.

Fusion cascades are an interesting option. You get comparable firepower to a commander, with less range - and obviously not the 2+ BS. They are a fair bit cheaper than commanders though, and you have a support system slot that you could use for a shield generator or DC. Much more expensive than the other guns though.

I'm going to look and see if I can find the twin-burst cannons I didn't use on my suits and maybe stick them on the hazards after all. Might even run the actual TX-42s with the rail rifles, as they seem like decent little toys now.

I'd say only the TBBC build is really worth it. FC build is worse than the Quad Commander; the other 2 options are plain worse than the TBBC

How do people go about drone herding? Specifically I'm talking about Drone Controllers for more reliable shooting.

Commanders are probably a no-go. BS2+ is too good to waste on fewer weapons.

Stealth Battlesuits bring lots more S5 Dakka and the odd Fusion gun. Doesn't seem great.

Crisis Suits seem a bit better, but those weapon/support option slots are precious.

Ghostkeels seem to have good synergy. Shoot at the Ghostkeel, miss a lot and drones self-sacrifice. Shoot at the drones and Ghostkeel rolls up with lots of Fusion firepower.

Ghostkeels, Stealth Suits, Hazards or any of the big suits, as they don't lose slots for DCs

 John Prins wrote:
How do people go about drone herding? Specifically I'm talking about Drone Controllers for more reliable shooting.

Commanders are probably a no-go. BS2+ is too good to waste on fewer weapons.

Stealth Battlesuits bring lots more S5 Dakka and the odd Fusion gun. Doesn't seem great.

Crisis Suits seem a bit better, but those weapon/support option slots are precious.

Ghostkeels seem to have good synergy. Shoot at the Ghostkeel, miss a lot and drones self-sacrifice. Shoot at the drones and Ghostkeel rolls up with lots of Fusion firepower.

Stealthsuits are considered the 'goto' Drone Controllers at the moment

Yeah, Stealth Suits are my choice. They're really the only suit that doesn't have a significantly better use of their support system slot. Commanders and, to a lesser extent, Crisis Suits need weapons (and maybe an ATS), while big suits need ATS, shield generators, target locks, etc. Stealth Suits don't really need any of that.