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They may kill things okay, but their firepower compares directly with Commanders. Would you rather pay an extra 45 pts to hit on a 4 instead of a 2 and lose the ability to deep strike?

I've been toying with a list themed to vanguard and outrider detachments. Using pathfinders in place of firewarriors, and going msu with them to max on ion/rails (plus the 2 ml in each). Have people had good success with around 4 -6 squads of 5, and if so which rifle did you run them with?

MilkmanAl wrote:
They may kill things okay, but their firepower compares directly with Commanders. Would you rather pay an extra 45 pts to hit on a 4 instead of a 2 and lose the ability to deep strike?

Depends on what you want for your army list. Do you want to pay more for a unit that has 4 more wounds, opponents shoot at it with -2 to hit so its hopefully a fire magnet, and can infiltrate and support your other deepstriking units? I dont run one myself but consider it a good choice with markerlight support.

 doc1234 wrote:
I've been toying with a list themed to vanguard and outrider detachments. Using pathfinders in place of firewarriors, and going msu with them to max on ion/rails (plus the 2 ml in each). Have people had good success with around 4 -6 squads of 5, and if so which rifle did you run them with?

Ion is safe, and will never feel like they didn't do work. Even if they die without ever firing a shot, the entire squad was only 50 points. At worst they gave you access to a Grav Drone for 60 points, and absorbed some shooting from more important stuff.
If you bring that many squads, I would say bring 2-3 Recon Drones to allow your Pathfinders to ignore cover.

Rail is a gamble, they can be more effective but if targeted you will feel it wasted.

vs Devastators/Havocs in Cover 30"
Fire Warriors - 7 / (1 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/6) = 108 shots to kill the 1st heavy weapon
Ion Rifles - 7 / (2 * 21/36 * 5/6 * 1/3) = 21.6 shots to kill the 1st heavy weapon
Ion Rifles with Recon Drone nearby - 7 / (2 * 21/36 * 5/6 * 1/2) = 14.4 shots to kill the 1st heavy weapon
Rail Rifle - 7 / ((1 * 21/36 * 2/3) + (1 * 21/36 * 1/6)) = 14.4 shots to kill the 1st heavy weapon

15"
Fire Warriors - 7 / (2 * 21/36 * 2/3 * 1/6) = 54 shots to kill the 1st heavy weapon
Rail Rifle - 7 / ((2 * 21/36 * 2/3) + (2 * 21/36 * 1/6)) = 7.2 shots to kill the 1st heavy weapon

I feel like the GK has a strange load out to a degree, with the FB it is a scary looking target so people focus it but in order to shoot anything you need to be in 18" but out of 12" to be survivable; but at the same time most units can move around 6" so even if you position right at the edge of your range you risk them diving in on you. So you are trapped spending 200 points that will not be doing damage or is not all that survivable. On the other hand the Ion Raker load out lacks the punch to be really scary to most people so it moves down the priority queue of units, so then you have a unit which lacks a spectacular armement and is not making use of its key concept of toughness.

Maybe going half and half with ion and rail pf might work out slightly better. 2-3 ion teams for tackling medium infantry @, $ light vehicles?, and some rail teams for any 2+ save infantry

davethepak wrote:


I think they are great. Yes, if you do JUST math and compare them to a static line of gun drones shooting at a single target (to avoid their target protocols) it is not as good.


However, while good input, it is just an abstract comparison.

Piranhas are useful because of their speed and firepower. I use them for zipping around taking objectives, and shooting where needed.

it usually takes a bit of dedicated firepower to remove them as well. Finally, if I decide I am going to run a list that will leverage seekers (not always a good choice) they are yet another seeker platform.

Remember - a good player is more than just math - its deployment, target priority, movement, reading your opponent and have a flexible plan.

Granted, I am a little salty that they went from "slightly more durable than a landspeeder" to "significantly less durable than a landspeeder" over the edition change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rockfish wrote:
I feel like the GK has a strange load out to a degree, with the FB it is a scary looking target so people focus it but in order to shoot anything you need to be in 18" but out of 12" to be survivable; but at the same time most units can move around 6" so even if you position right at the edge of your range you risk them diving in on you. So you are trapped spending 200 points that will not be doing damage or is not all that survivable. On the other hand the Ion Raker load out lacks the punch to be really scary to most people so it moves down the priority queue of units, so then you have a unit which lacks a spectacular armement and is not making use of its key concept of toughness.

That's because the Ghostkeel, like many other things in the Tau codex, is balanced around the now non-existent ability to move after shooting. The prevalence of fly on our models is somewhat similar against melee attacks, but it doesn't help at all against ranged attacks.

Well the game happened. I'm working up the battle report. Lost, for a few reasions. But did gain some valuable insight into tatics needed. Don't have much time at the moment but I'll be able to field some insights and possible considerations for our builds.

Tylendal wrote:

Granted, I am a little salty that they went from "slightly more durable than a landspeeder" to "significantly less durable than a landspeeder" over the edition change.

Landspeeder: T 5, W 6, Sv 3+
Pirhana: T5, W 6, Sv 4+

They're *nearly* the same, just the Marine Save vs Tau Save.

I wish that they had better weapon options tho. Like the Landspeeder, the Pirhana should have several weapon options. They're an ideal place for a single missile system, for instance, or for a pair of underchin plasma rifles. Yeah, you'd need a new kit, but, man, it'd be a big hit.

Wakshaani wrote:


I wish that they had better weapon options tho. Like the Landspeeder, the Pirhana should have several weapon options. They're an ideal place for a single missile system, for instance, or for a pair of underchin plasma rifles. Yeah, you'd need a new kit, but, man, it'd be a big hit.

getting some new kits for the tau vehicles would be awsome, the piranha has so much potential for different upgrades and the hammerhead could do with some variants and better moulds. Maybe some day we could get some, if GW realsies that not everyone wants to field just battlesuits.

Wakshaani wrote:

I wish that they had better weapon options tho. Like the Landspeeder, the Pirhana should have several weapon options. They're an ideal place for a single missile system, for instance, or for a pair of underchin plasma rifles. Yeah, you'd need a new kit, but, man, it'd be a big hit.

Piranha TX-42 from FW has those options. It's a bit more expensive (akin to 120ish points)

If they update the piranha kit, I would hope for more drastic redesign. The size is..ok? merits from being such a movement blocking piece, but I would generally like a more streamlined/smaller design for being so tissue-paper soft. And even the option for missile pods/CIB IF it gets something like relentless again/stable platform. Seems it would match the meta a bit better.

Wakshaani wrote:


Landspeeder: T 5, W 6, Sv 3+
Pirhana: T5, W 6, Sv 4+

They're *nearly* the same, just the Marine Save vs Tau Save.

I wish that they had better weapon options tho. Like the Landspeeder, the Pirhana should have several weapon options. They're an ideal place for a single missile system, for instance, or for a pair of underchin plasma rifles. Yeah, you'd need a new kit, but, man, it'd be a big hit.

An extra point of armour is hardly an insignificant difference, especially when Piranhas used to be 11/10/10 2HP vs the Landspeeder's 10/10/10 HP2. I'd always liked the thought that since the Tau are just a little more reasonable and rational, their skimmers were just a little better armoured where it counted. With all the other problems with the codex, discovering that that was no longer the case was a bit of a kick in the teeth.

More options for Piranhas would definitely be fun. Could be fun to field a Piranha heavy army. (They also could carry a single missile before eighth.)

They still can carry missiles can't they?

you can take up to two seeker missiles per piranha. I usually do it since it is only 10 points and it stops me from feeling like some of the marker light results do nothing

I still feel that Markerlight 2 should read "Ignore any penalties to-be-hit that this unit has" (So, for instance, the -1 to-be hit of a Ravenguard unit or the -1 to-hit of a Supersonic flyer are disregarded) while Seker Missiles should read:

"Drone Brain. This attack hits on a 5+, regardless of the vehicle's normal BS. This attack gains +1 to-hit per markerlight on the targeted unit in addition to the usual Markerlight bonuses. On a to-hit roll of 6+, this attack deals 1D3 Mortal Wounds, rather than 1."

ROUGHLY worded. Makes Markerlights a little bit better without being insanely stronger and gives Seeker Missiles a little Oomph.

But that's not really for this thread, is it?

I'm currently trying to assemble a small Tau force out of the parts I've picked up over the years, topped off with a couple of new purchases. Currently, I have:

48 Fire Warriors with Pulse Rifles
24 Fire Warriors with Pulse Carbines
10 Pathfinders
10 Crisis Suits (only 1 assembled yet) (OLD models)
9 Stealth Suits
4-ish Devilfish
2-ish Hammerheads
2-ish Skyrays
(There are a couple of spare turrets that could be moved around here.)
15 Piranha
30-ish drones (two Markerlight, 3 Pathfinder, 24+ Gun Drones)
1 Fireblade
30 Kroot

It's thin right now, with command especially so, but workable in a classic gunline sense. I don't really care for the giant battlesuits (Riptides, Ghostkeels, etc), but I like the line infantry and, obviously, the speedy flankers. I'm just not yet sure the best way to turn this into a fighting force. It lacks something with significant staying power that I can park on an objective, which is sort of the definition of a Riptide, but I want to avoid that if possible.

Any suggestions? (Other than, you know, "Spam commanders").

Wakshaani wrote:
I still feel that Markerlight 2 should read "Ignore any penalties to-be-hit that this unit has" (So, for instance, the -1 to-be hit of a Ravenguard unit or the -1 to-hit of a Supersonic flyer are disregarded) while Seker Missiles should read:

"Drone Brain. This attack hits on a 5+, regardless of the vehicle's normal BS. This attack gains +1 to-hit per markerlight on the targeted unit in addition to the usual Markerlight bonuses. On a to-hit roll of 6+, this attack deals 1D3 Mortal Wounds, rather than 1."

ROUGHLY worded. Makes Markerlights a little bit better without being insanely stronger and gives Seeker Missiles a little Oomph.

But that's not really for this thread, is it?

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/732795.page
My personal suggestion on it

Hey y'all,

I am super new to the tau empire and just wanted to get some clarification on why the riptide is soooo bad? Is it mainly based on the point value of it with its upgrades or is it just not an optimally effective machine anymore.

What units should I be focusing on more then others? There are a lot of options that look sweet, but I'm still trying to work out the best tactics for them.

Thanks for all the information.

trinhm03 wrote:
Hey y'all,

I am super new to the tau empire and just wanted to get some clarification on why the riptide is soooo bad? Is it mainly based on the point value of it with its upgrades or is it just not an optimally effective machine anymore.

What units should I be focusing on more then others? There are a lot of options that look sweet, but I'm still trying to work out the best tactics for them.

Thanks for all the information.

You can find a lot of stuff that, for 304 points, will do way better than a Riptide. All it really does now is to soak wound from your other units... until the enemy learns to avoid it and fire at anything else. Like the Dwarven Defender prestige class from D&D 3.5 - very hard to kill, but without serious bite.

The best way to learn what will do good or bad in your group is playing. But, in general, we can say Fusion Blaster or Cclic Ion Blaster Commanders, Cadre Fireblades + Strike Teams, Darkstrider + Breachers + Devilfishes, Pathfinders, XV109 Y'vahra, Flamer Crisis Suits, Sun Shark Bomber and Hammerheads + Longstrike are our best units.

If you were to have four, and only four, Commanders in your 2k list, what equipment would you run? I'm thinking of 2 fusionmanders,1 with CIBs, 1 with Missiles to stand back providing Mont'ka or Kayuon, but I feel Coldstar would be better than missilemander. Thoughts?

 Fueli wrote:
If you were to have four, and only four, Commanders in your 2k list, what equipment would you run? I'm thinking of 2 fusionmanders,1 with CIBs, 1 with Missiles to stand back providing Mont'ka or Kayuon, but I feel Coldstar would be better than missilemander. Thoughts?

Id go with 2 3 Fusion Shield Generator commanders, and 2 Coldstars, but thats just me.

I'm not convinced Coldstar has enough firepower. Is his speed worth his price?

Colstar is not entirely about firepower, its more about the fact that NOTHING and NOWHERE is safe.
You can't possibly hide from them, you can't put anything in between-he WILL reach you if he needs to, and if you didn't left enough to defend a remote objective, he easily claims it.

Its the fastest thing in the game by far except actual aircraft, and that's his true value.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
I'm not convinced Coldstar has enough firepower. Is his speed worth his price?

ATS with 2 Burst Cannons and a Missile Pod is nothing to sneeze at, but its no Fusionmander. 20 inch move and assault. It has more mobility than any unit in the game. You can tie up any squad in the game because he has fly. Devastator squad giving you problems in the back? Move right next to them, shoot and charge, tie em up. Heck he can tie up tanks, as long as you have a shield gen and he doesnt get lucky with overwatch.

Now these are exactly the reasons I'm considering Coldstar. I have one unbuilt commander kit and I think I might build it as Coldstar. Cheers for replies guys.

Tie up any unit in the game? Yeah, you can run from combat, but Commanders aren't exactly tanks. I definitely wouldn't be deliberately getting them into assaults except in dire and/or unique circumstances. The "FLY" keyword gets a whole lot of unwarranted praise in this thread, I feel like. We still get effing rolled in combat, guys. You're not going to have anything left to fall back with after a round of combat.

Well, I don't think anyone was suggesting trying to use the Coldstar to tie up Khorne Berzerkers or Assault Terminators or other dedicated assault units. Tanks are the only thing in the game worse at combat than Tau, so we should look to tie those up if possible.

I ran a Coldstar last weekend during a bunch of games and they definitely scored more than anything else in the army, and they were great at picking up my opponent's characters when they forget to have a bubble of models around them. I killed Yvraine and Yarrick like that.

 Vector Strike wrote:

The best way to learn what will do good or bad in your group is playing. But, in general, we can say Fusion Blaster or Cclic Ion Blaster Commanders, Cadre Fireblades + Strike Teams, Darkstrider + Breachers + Devilfishes, Pathfinders, XV109 Y'vahra, Flamer Crisis Suits, Sun Shark Bomber and Hammerheads + Longstrike are our best units.

I am so sorry for being this dumb but what are these units? "Cclic Ion Blaster Commanders, Cadre Fireblades + Strike Teams, Darkstrider + Breachers"

I know what the commander is but I do not know what weapon. I am a little lost in what the other units are. Thanks for the info.

Fusion Blaster Commander and Ion Blaster Commander are Commanders with either 4 of these weapons or 3 of them and an Advanced Targeting System.
Cadre Fireblade + Strike Teams is the combination of both, since they have good synergy. Same with Darkstrider and Breachers embarked in a Devilfish.