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 Ravajaxe wrote:
So if we essentially trade veterans for scions in troops section that seems fair.

Especially with the new Taurox prime stats:

Gatling: heavy20 str4, 2x volley gun (heavy4 str4 ap-2), 76 pts

Or you can just drop Scions 9" away from the target with 2x plasma and plasma pistol per 5 men, backed up by tempestors throwing out 2 orders each. Deep strike is so powerful now that there is no scatter and you can just decide when to drop.

Just noticed Astropath is gone as well.

Valkyries and Officer of the Fleet lack the <Regiment> keyword which may screw up dedicated listbuilding a bit (poor Elysians).

Lord-Commissar has a measly four wounds. Sounds like sniper-bait to me.

Astropath, primaris and the squad are all in the Astra Telepathica list. Still have AM keyword though, so can use them fine. Same with the enginseer.

That second power though. 2d6" line, for every model under it roll a die. 4+, that unit takes a mortal wound. It seems that there are still some attacks that punish clumped up units.

So they're directly nerfing the exterminator and executioner by taking twin-linked away from one, and reducing the other to a single blast instead of three. That's pretty lame.

Edit:
Alright, so I've had time to read through more of it.

CCS order ranged nerfed to 6"

No platoons

No blobs (super important, because orders only affect one unit!)

No Vendetta

MoO nerfed to once per battle (previously he was just an artillery piece with legs).

Medics can't revive, so only useful on characters

No Camo netting, period (NOOOOOOOOO!)

No Chimera fire ports

No Chimera lasgun batteries

Pask no longer provides special rules or Preferred Enemy, only BS4 and Tank Orders.

GW was swinging that nerf hammer like a bull in a china shop, and I'm scratching my head as to why. Imperial Guard was perhaps the most balanced codex previously, but they've received more nerfs than problem codices like Tau or Eldar.

On the bright side, it looks like Officer of the Fleet will be able to replace the Master of Ordinance as the "artillery with legs" pick. He does mortal wounds, and is restricted to once per turn instead of once per game. Also Hellstrike missiles don't seem to be once-per-game anymore, so those might be useful now.

Overall though... "They want to nerf me? Me, whom everyone loves?"--Imperial Guard players in 8th edition.

Been away all day, just updated the OP.

Did we really loose the vandetta or is that in another list aswell? I saw Ministorum Priests somewhere too, so semi-sure that we still can take them.

Some really cool stuff I think, and some not-so-cool-stuff.

I've never used Scions so I shouldn't comment too much, but aren't their guns kinda trash now? I remember them being MEQ killers with AP3, but now they just get -2 and still only S3.

Loving the whole Astra Auxiliary section, super cool that Bullgryns can take Slabshields and Maul now but they do clock in at 42 points pr head which might still be too expensive for what they can do. Cheap Sniper Hobbits.

The Punisher Russ variant was a beast last edition, it seems less so now when the Taurox can take a mini variant with one less strength. Too bad that model is so ugly, it seems like it got quite a boost


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:
So they're directly nerfing the exterminator and executioner by taking twin-linked away from one, and reducing the other to a single blast instead of three. That's pretty lame.

Yeah I agree the executioner is just bad now, I think the exterminator didn't get Heavy 8 so it dosen't compete with the Hydra or outshines the other variants.

tneva82 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

I think that a vanquisher pask may be worth it, as he is 2+ to hit now.

Nah battle cannon is still better vs tanks and obviously better vs infantry.

2+ is good but same helps battle cannon...Indeed BC gets bigger help from BS than it did before.

Already shown through the math. Battle cannon is only better on lower saves(4+,5+,and 6+) and lucky rolls. Vanquisher is better against heavy targets.

Both have a chance to fire 1 shot and miss. But if the vanquisher hits with a single shot that shot is more likely to do more damage than the battle cannon hitting with 2 shots. The battle cannon can, if the dice all go in your favor put 3x damage in a single turn. It is worth a try if you have no other anti-big'uns guns left or have already killed all the med-heavy infantry.

8th edition Imperial Guard in a nutshell

The Scions are really trashy when it comes to deep striking now, their guns don't have the range to rapid fire when they drop, and they'll be even less able to inflict damage to the enemy and hope to survive the returning fire. That said, the volley gun became great with the new heavy rule, so there might be something to do here.

Rough riders don't seem that good. You can outflank if you stay over 9" away from enemies. So if you want to charge you need to roll a 9 on 2d6, pretty difficult and if you fail then you still take overwatch and sit in the open for a turn. I think that scions are a much better reserve choice.

You can take 10 Scions, 4x P.Gun and a P.Pistol for 138. Take 2 of these and a Tempestor with the 2 order rod (40 + melee if wanted). So 316 for 18 plasma shots you can drop 9" away from something and give orders to.

Hmm, we only have three psychic powers to choose from now too. I guess barrier is kinda good, even if it does only work on one unit. Gee, it sure would be nice if we had a way to combine several units into one.

RIP Diviniation, you will be missed. At least the Astropath can still grant Ignores Cover, though that spell was way better as a buff on friendlies than a debuff on enemies.

Also the Astropath has to roll 5+ on 1d6 instead of 2d6 to Smite. At least he can't Perils that way, but good luck actually casting.

 Commissar Benny wrote:
8th edition Imperial Guard in a nutshell

You're lacking huge amounts of context with regards to points; EVERY other army got a points increase to vehicles, not just guard.

When you face someone in this edition, the balance doesn't come just from your codex, but your opponent's codex as well. Please keep that in mind!

ALSO, the exterminator cannon being nerfed was necessary. Otherwise, why the feth would you ever tank a battlecannon over a Heavy 8 S7 AP -1 D2 weapon?

If you want leaks without going to some of the more reclusive parts of the internet: http://www.3plusplus.net/2017/05/imperial-guard-leaks-hammer-emperor-finally-descends-8th-edition/

 Bobthehero wrote:
The Scions are really trashy when it comes to deep striking now, their guns don't have the range to rapid fire when they drop, and they'll be even less able to inflict damage to the enemy and hope to survive the returning fire. That said, the volley gun became great with the new heavy rule, so there might be something to do here.

Someone here has no balls for the grav-chute insertions..
Jokes aside, yeah, overall is underwhelming. No specific orders for scion, am I right?

 Shadelkan wrote:

You're lacking huge amounts of context with regards to points; EVERY other army got a points increase to vehicles, not just guard.

When you face someone in this edition, the balance doesn't come just from your codex, but your opponent's codex as well. Please keep that in mind!

ALSO, the exterminator cannon being nerfed was necessary. Otherwise, why the feth would you ever tank a battlecannon over a Heavy 8 S7 AP -1 D2 weapon?

I've been looking through some of the other codices. Tyranids MC's are like 80pts a pop, compared to our 130-150 LR variants. Tyranids are gauranteed to be in assault with your gunline turn 1 every match if they take Trygon + Swarmlord. Trygon comes up turn 1 9" away along with 20 genestealers. Then swarmlord uses ability to move genestealers an additional 8 inches in shooting phase. Putting them 1 inch away. Meaning no overwatch. GG its over.

Believe me, we need every advantage we will be able to get. The exterminator nerf is unnecessary. I have yet to see any other example of a twin-linked weapon losing its twin-linked from another army. I agree that you would never take a battlecannon over an exterminator, which speaks volumes about how absolutely terrible battle cannons will be this edition.

Why would you use grav chute, when Scions can be set up wherever they like with no scatter, at the end of any movement phase you decide? Deep striking is so much better now. Give yourself some reroll 1s with orders and blaze away!

I just noticed something else... the Chimera doesn't have Command Tank anymore. So we can't even stuff our Officers into a Chimera to hide them from sniper fire.

Was this codex written by Matt Ward?

 Commissar Benny wrote:
I've been looking through some of the other codices. Tyranids MC's are like 80pts a pop, compared to our 130-150 LR variants. Tyranids are gauranteed to be in assault with your gunline turn 1 every match if they take Trygon + Swarmlord. Trygon comes up turn 1 9" away along with 20 genestealers. Then swarmlord uses ability to move genestealers an additional 8 inches in shooting phase. Putting them 1 inch away. Meaning no overwatch. GG its over.

Looks like conscript screens are going to be super useful. If they are going to eat things, why not the cheapest models in the game? Then just run them away and shoot the snot out of what charged them. Then charge them back!

 Commissar Benny wrote:

 Shadelkan wrote:

You're lacking huge amounts of context with regards to points; EVERY other army got a points increase to vehicles, not just guard.

When you face someone in this edition, the balance doesn't come just from your codex, but your opponent's codex as well. Please keep that in mind!

ALSO, the exterminator cannon being nerfed was necessary. Otherwise, why the feth would you ever tank a battlecannon over a Heavy 8 S7 AP -1 D2 weapon?

I've been looking through some of the other codices. Tyranids MC's are like 80pts a pop, compared to our 130-150 LR variants. Tyranids are gauranteed to be in assault with your gunline turn 1 every match if they take Trygon + Swarmlord. Trygon comes up turn 1 9" away along with 20 genestealers. Then swarmlord uses ability to move genestealers an additional 8 inches in shooting phase. Putting them 1 inch away. Meaning no overwatch. GG its over.

Believe me, we need every advantage we will be able to get. The exterminator nerf is unnecessary. I have yet to see any other example of a twin-linked weapon losing its twin-linked from another army. I agree that you would never take a battlecannon over an exterminator, which speaks volumes about how absolutely terrible battle cannons will be this edition.

God forbid Nids get a buff /s. Have you seen the other codices? Orks, Chaos, Marines, Tau; they're not all overpowered either. In fact, the one thing I've noticed is that everything is... tame. There's no clearcut absolute best option now, which is what we've been asking for since forever!

Leaks have been leaking: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/6edukc/full_rules_leak/

TauDar are still looking pretty ridiculous. The loss of formations does a lot to indirectly tone them down, but GW seems to have treated them with a really light touch and even buffed the Tau in several areas to compensate.

Chaos lost their infinite factory lists of course, which was much deserved.

But what's weird is why the Imperial Guard is getting nerfed so hard when they really didn't need it. The Imperial Guard didn't have anything broken or out of line except maybe Wyverns, and those were only causing problems by outclassing other artillery options within the codex. They weren't a big enough deal to make opponents rage.

So these nerfs are very unexpected and strike me as rather unnecessary. Especially since we seem to be the only faction to have a model get Squatted, unless Forge World rides to the rescue.

The only real silver lining seems to be that with Platoons getting scattered across every force org slot from HQ to Heavy Support, and with the CCS getting split into ten separate units, the Imperial Guard will typically have tons of command points because filling up a Brigade detachment or three will be trivial for them. We're definitely going to need all those extra HQ slots for all of the officers it'll take to wrangle 12+ non-blobbed squads.

So Pask went from a must take. To '' he will hit stuff on a 2'' :( ??!

So since we cant make platoons we can only issue orders to one squad per junior officer! That is BS! On top of that every squad will be taxed with a vox if you want a chance to give them an order more than 6" away.

Medic can now revive 1 model within 3" on a 4+. USLESS!

Why would I take a command squad now since a platoon leader cant attach to a squad?

 ross-128 wrote:
I just noticed something else... the Chimera doesn't have Command Tank anymore. So we can't even stuff our Officers into a Chimera to hide them from sniper fire.

Was this codex written by Matt Ward?

Hyperbolic nonsense. Matt Ward wrote terrible fluff, not rules... Well.. not compared to the rest. What you meant to say instead of Matt Ward was Phil Kelly. The evil Ward made the rules for chain of command, the order system and even fleet of foot for Eldar. Cruddace couldn't be creative if you pointed a gun to his head.

Furthermore, have you actually seen the Company Commander profile? 30 points for a dude that can dish out 2 orders that automatically succeeds. 3W and no instant death mechanics and literally cannot be targeted by anything but snipers, which aren't really that effective at dealing multiple wounds to begin with, especially not with a 5++. You can now take 2 of him for the exact same points of the former CCS, for twice the orders (which now auto passes, no less). Why would you then spend 75+ points on putting him inside a vehicle which makes the entire enemy force able to target him? He's been buffed mate.

Why do I get the uncomfortable feeling we're steadily heading towards the same space Sisters of Battle share?

Mfw no Platoons.

 Shadelkan wrote:
ALSO, the exterminator cannon being nerfed was necessary. Otherwise, why the feth would you ever tank a battlecannon over a Heavy 8 S7 AP -1 D2 weapon?

So they designed every single Russ tank around the nerfed battlecannon?
Well we can't have the exterminator be good... otherwise, why would anyone take the battlecannon?
Well we can't have the demolisher be good... otherwise why would anyone take the battlecannon?
Well we can't have the executioner be good...

rinse, repeat. Every single russ variant got nerfed, except the punisher I think? Eradicator is questionable, but nobody ran those anyway.

Here's an idea. DON'T HAVE THE BATTLECANNON BE GARBAGE

The special rule that basilisks get where you roll 2d6 and discard the lowest for the number of attacks? Why is that not the standard for all things that used to be large blasts? How does that even make sense on an earthshaker but not the battlecannon? How are indirect earthshakers more accurate than battlecannons? In what universe did guard deserve such heavy nerfs to so many units? Was guard top tier in 7th or something? Were they skewing the tourneys? Did I miss something?

 Zewrath wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
I just noticed something else... the Chimera doesn't have Command Tank anymore. So we can't even stuff our Officers into a Chimera to hide them from sniper fire.

Was this codex written by Matt Ward?

Hyperbolic nonsense. Matt Ward wrote terrible fluff, not rules... Well.. not compared to the rest. What you meant to say instead of Matt Ward was Phil Kelly. The evil Ward made the rules for chain of command, the order system and even fleet of foot for Eldar. Cruddace couldn't be creative if you pointed a gun to his head.

Furthermore, have you actually seen the Company Commander profile? 30 points for a dude that can dish out 2 orders that automatically succeeds. 3W and no instant death mechanics and literally cannot be targeted by anything but snipers, which aren't really that effective at dealing multiple wounds to begin with, especially not with a 5++. You can now take 2 of him for the exact same points of the former CCS, for twice the orders (which now auto passes, no less). Why would you then spend 75+ points on putting him inside a vehicle which makes the entire enemy force able to target him? He's been buffed mate.

If he was in the Chimera he'd have a boatload of ablative wounds, a slight range extension on his orders due to the Chimera's size, a 3+ save, and when the Chimera finally blows up the Commander would just hop out without a scratch on him. Wouldn't even have to spend extra points if you brought a Chimera for one of your infantry squads anyway, theirs would have two empty seats that he could use.

And considering mortal wounds ignore invuln saves, snipers are definitely a concern for something with only 3W. Have you not seen our own Ratlings?

ThePorcupine wrote:

 Shadelkan wrote:
ALSO, the exterminator cannon being nerfed was necessary. Otherwise, why the feth would you ever tank a battlecannon over a Heavy 8 S7 AP -1 D2 weapon?

So they designed every single Russ tank around the nerfed battlecannon?
Well we can't have the exterminator be good... otherwise, why would anyone take the battlecannon?
Well we can't have the demolisher be good... otherwise why would anyone take the battlecannon?
Well we can't have the executioner be good...

rinse, repeat. Every single russ variant got nerfed, except the punisher I think? Eradicator is questionable, but nobody ran those anyway.

Here's an idea. DON'T HAVE THE BATTLECANNON BE GARBAGE

The special rule that basilisks get where you roll 2d6 and discard the lowest for the number of attacks? Why is that not the standard for all things that used to be large blasts? How does that even make sense on an earthshaker but not the battlecannon? How are indirect earthshakers more accurate than battlecannons? In what universe did guard deserve such heavy nerfs to so many units? Was guard top tier in 7th or something? Were they skewing the tourneys? Did I miss something?

Large amount of salt in this post..... but I can't help myself to agree wholeheartedly on all your points.

 Zewrath wrote:

ThePorcupine wrote:

 Shadelkan wrote:
ALSO, the exterminator cannon being nerfed was necessary. Otherwise, why the feth would you ever tank a battlecannon over a Heavy 8 S7 AP -1 D2 weapon?

So they designed every single Russ tank around the nerfed battlecannon?
Well we can't have the exterminator be good... otherwise, why would anyone take the battlecannon?
Well we can't have the demolisher be good... otherwise why would anyone take the battlecannon?
Well we can't have the executioner be good...

rinse, repeat. Every single russ variant got nerfed, except the punisher I think? Eradicator is questionable, but nobody ran those anyway.

Here's an idea. DON'T HAVE THE BATTLECANNON BE GARBAGE

The special rule that basilisks get where you roll 2d6 and discard the lowest for the number of attacks? Why is that not the standard for all things that used to be large blasts? How does that even make sense on an earthshaker but not the battlecannon? How are indirect earthshakers more accurate than battlecannons? In what universe did guard deserve such heavy nerfs to so many units? Was guard top tier in 7th or something? Were they skewing the tourneys? Did I miss something?

Large amount of salt in this post..... but I can't help myself to agree wholeheartedly on all your points.

Yeah, I think that's the biggest thing that is causing the nerfs to be taken so poorly. It's not the nerfs per se, but the fact that they're so unnecessary. Guard hasn't been close to top-tier since 5th, but here comes GW swinging the nerf bat left and right.

So we're standing here in confusion going "They want to nerf me? Me, whom everyone loves?"

 ross-128 wrote:

 Zewrath wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
I just noticed something else... the Chimera doesn't have Command Tank anymore. So we can't even stuff our Officers into a Chimera to hide them from sniper fire.

Was this codex written by Matt Ward?

Hyperbolic nonsense. Matt Ward wrote terrible fluff, not rules... Well.. not compared to the rest. What you meant to say instead of Matt Ward was Phil Kelly. The evil Ward made the rules for chain of command, the order system and even fleet of foot for Eldar. Cruddace couldn't be creative if you pointed a gun to his head.

Furthermore, have you actually seen the Company Commander profile? 30 points for a dude that can dish out 2 orders that automatically succeeds. 3W and no instant death mechanics and literally cannot be targeted by anything but snipers, which aren't really that effective at dealing multiple wounds to begin with, especially not with a 5++. You can now take 2 of him for the exact same points of the former CCS, for twice the orders (which now auto passes, no less). Why would you then spend 75+ points on putting him inside a vehicle which makes the entire enemy force able to target him? He's been buffed mate.

If he was in the Chimera he'd have a boatload of ablative wounds, a slight range extension on his orders due to the Chimera's size, a 3+ save, and when the Chimera finally blows up the Commander would just hop out without a scratch on him. Wouldn't even have to spend extra points if you brought a Chimera for one of your infantry squads anyway, theirs would have two empty seats that he could use.

And considering mortal wounds ignore invuln saves, snipers are definitely a concern for something with only 3W. Have you not seen our own Ratlings?

I have. Have you? Why don't you tell me how many shots it would take to even kill one character?

Also, consider how danger close you are to the units you are buffing via orders. Remember that the suffer mortal wounds if they get caught.
You make a good point about the passenger size on a chimera, which is why this a better buff. Consider the stander mech list. Bring a Vanguard detachment with your normal army and you can now give bring a order buffers for 20-30 points with every veteran squad. 20 points for a platoon commander will automatically give re-rolls of 1's to your plasma vets. Not bad.

 ross-128 wrote:
So we're standing here in confusion going "They want to nerf me? Me, whom everyone loves?"

You can't really call anything a buff/nerf without taking into account all of the other changes in the game. If a units goes up 5 pts but everything else in the game goes up 10, then what looks like a nerf is really a buff. People need to stop comparing 8th to 7th, and start comparing things internally within 8th. At least now the whole thing is leaked, we can start doing that.