Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2017/05/31 17:07:52
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
War Kitten wrote: I'm incredibly happy that blob squads were gone, but the Russ changes worry me greatly
Why? If you don't like them don't play them, but let other people enjoy blobs if that floats their boat.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 17:11:49
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
2017/05/31 17:15:25
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
War Kitten wrote: I'm incredibly happy that blob squads were gone, but the Russ changes worry me greatly
Why? If you don't like them don't play them, but let other people enjoy blobs if that floats their boat.
If you want to field a blob of 50 men you still have conscripts. I'm glad to see we can finally take lone infantry squads.
In exchange of a BS4+ blob? You could take a cheap platoon before and keep the units split. I.. I don't even...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 17:19:58
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
2017/05/31 17:21:24
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
It's nice that we can take lone infantry squads to get the Brigade Detachment bonuses, considering it requires 6 troops. That would have cost a fortune under the old format.
2017/05/31 17:23:35
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
ross-128 wrote: The biggest hurt by far in my opinion is the loss of blob squads. We're going to have to buy a lot more officers and commissars, because what was once 1 unit is now 5. Even with commissars being changed into a bubble, it's hard to get 5 squads in range of a 6" bubble without some serious conga-lines.
Fortunately, 4-point infantry will free up a few points for all those extra officers.
Also, reading the Valkyrie's rules again, grav-chute insertion is no ordinary deep strike. It happens during the Valkyrie's move instead of "at the end of your movement phase". So your movement phase is still going. The transport rule says units can move and shoot normally after getting out of a transport, and there's nothing in grav-chute insertion to contradict that.
So grav-chute insertion does, indirectly, ignore the 9" rule for deep strikes. Sure, you drop 9" away. Then you can move 6" before you attack. Flamethrower Valkyrie drops actually do work.
A buddy of mine was upset that the DS rules put his Scions less than an inch outside of rapid fire range. Looks like Valks are going to be useful here.
DQ:90S++G++MB++I--Pw40k01+D+A++/hWD-R+++T(D)DM+
Organiser of 40k Montreal There is only war in Montreal
kronk wrote:The International Programmers Society has twice met to get the world to agree on one methodology for programming dates. Both times they met, the meeting devolved into a giant Unreal Tournament Lan party...
2017/05/31 17:43:45
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
rabidguineapig wrote: It's nice that we can take lone infantry squads to get the Brigade Detachment bonuses, considering it requires 6 troops. That would have cost a fortune under the old format.
Exactly. Those saying "but you could just take a cheap platoon and split the squads" seem to think that 130pts x 6 to field a Brigade would somehow be reasonable. Of course when you try and force 8th edition units into your 7th edition paradigm you end up with all sorts of questionable reasoning.
rabidguineapig wrote: It's nice that we can take lone infantry squads to get the Brigade Detachment bonuses, considering it requires 6 troops. That would have cost a fortune under the old format.
Exactly. Those saying "but you could just take a cheap platoon and split the squads" seem to think that 130pts x 6 to field a Brigade would somehow be reasonable. Of course when you try and force 8th edition units into your 7th edition paradigm you end up with all sorts of questionable reasoning.
I still wouldn't mind something like a general "up to 5 Infantry Squads can choose to deploy together as one Combined Squad". Then I could use a 50-man blob to occupy 5 Troops slots.
2017/05/31 17:55:24
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
rabidguineapig wrote: It's nice that we can take lone infantry squads to get the Brigade Detachment bonuses, considering it requires 6 troops. That would have cost a fortune under the old format.
Exactly. Those saying "but you could just take a cheap platoon and split the squads" seem to think that 130pts x 6 to field a Brigade would somehow be reasonable. Of course when you try and force 8th edition units into your 7th edition paradigm you end up with all sorts of questionable reasoning.
I still wouldn't mind something like a general "up to 5 Infantry Squads can choose to deploy together as one Combined Squad". Then I could use a 50-man blob to occupy 5 Troops slots.
I agree it certainly wouldn't have harmed anything to leave the option open for those who really wanted it. However it is possible that this could be a regiment specific option in the Codex when that comes along. Some kind of Chenkovish/Valhallan doctrine or soemthing.
2017/05/31 18:03:47
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Vaktathi wrote: you're assuming some rather specific builds and that everything is in range for things like orders all the time here. Yeah, some armies built certain ways around specific mechanics will probably do just fine. Many others however will not however, and there's a lot that command points and orders arent going to fix because the problems arent stuff they address, and many longstanding internal balance issues remain apparently untouched, while other items appear to have simply been lazily translated (e.g. armored sentinels just being 3+ over 4+sv normal sentinels coming from Closed Topped AV12 vs Open top AV10).
This also isnt the first edition changeover for many people either
It isn't my first edition changeover, as I remember enjoying my regimental doctrines back in the day, but that doesn't really affect anything either way. I gave you one example of a powerful build that is extremely easy to use and play. The Pask example is basically foolproof and involves nothing more than Pask himself if you want to get right down to it.
which is fine if you want to run Pask, and I don't doubt it may prove quite effective, but running a Pask centered list isnt everyone's thing, and relies on lots of mechanics coming together around one relatively easily focus fired big target too.
What "long standing internal balance issues" remain untouched after every single unit has been altered in some way?
Scion/Stormtrooper weapons being unreasonably short ranged to be anything but a suicide unit (and now competing with Veterans for the same slots), Vanquisher cannons still being notably ineffective for a single shot BS3 main turret weapon on an expensive tank (particularly next to something like the Predator Annihilator that niw gets two S9 Damage D6 shots at BS4 vs 1 BS3 S8 shot with 2d6 drop lowest Damage), the Deathstrike still being a highly variable and easily neutered crapshoot, etc.
Why is giving an Armored Sentinel a 3+ save to represent it's improved armor "lazy"?
Because it's not a meaningful change for the unit. A slightly better save does not represent the difference in resiliency and role the armored sentinel had relative to the scout sentinel, AV12 closed topped vs AV10 open topped w/Outflank was a lot more meaningful than just a 3+ vs a 4+ save, one could tarpit and face heavy weapons fire while the other could not, but could at least enter from an advantageous and unexpected position, and those distinctions are diminished to the point of largely being irrelevant now.
Edit: I don't want to get into an argument over something that boils down to our own perception of these changes, but I would encourage you to have a bit more of an open mind when considering these changes. I think you might be pleasantly surprised with how your army is going to play now.
I'm trying doing exactly that, I'm just not terribly impressed with what we've seen of the IG army list thus far. I'm absolutely willing to admit I could be wrong, and I hope I am, but there looks to be a good deal of awkwardness with a lot of these units.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2017/05/31 18:11:33
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
ross-128 wrote: The biggest hurt by far in my opinion is the loss of blob squads. We're going to have to buy a lot more officers and commissars, because what was once 1 unit is now 5. Even with commissars being changed into a bubble, it's hard to get 5 squads in range of a 6" bubble without some serious conga-lines.
With the new rules on blast templates, you don't need to make conga lines.
Here are 3 squads that can easily be placed within 6" of a commissar. You can fit one more behind the commissar. I would put a heavy weapons team behind the commissar as you might lose range quickly otherwise.
Well, we have Leman Russ Annihilators too, so we can get 1 TL Lascannon, Lascannon, and 2 Multimeltas.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2017/05/31 18:13:51
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
ross-128 wrote: The biggest hurt by far in my opinion is the loss of blob squads. We're going to have to buy a lot more officers and commissars, because what was once 1 unit is now 5. Even with commissars being changed into a bubble, it's hard to get 5 squads in range of a 6" bubble without some serious conga-lines.
With the new rules on blast templates, you don't need to make conga lines.
Here are 3 squads that can easily be placed within 6" of a commissar. You can fit one more behind the commissar. I would put a heavy weapons team behind the commissar as you might lose range quickly otherwise.
Vaktathi wrote: you're assuming some rather specific builds and that everything is in range for things like orders all the time here. Yeah, some armies built certain ways around specific mechanics will probably do just fine. Many others however will not however, and there's a lot that command points and orders arent going to fix because the problems arent stuff they address, and many longstanding internal balance issues remain apparently untouched, while other items appear to have simply been lazily translated (e.g. armored sentinels just being 3+ over 4+sv normal sentinels coming from Closed Topped AV12 vs Open top AV10).
This also isnt the first edition changeover for many people either
It isn't my first edition changeover, as I remember enjoying my regimental doctrines back in the day, but that doesn't really affect anything either way. I gave you one example of a powerful build that is extremely easy to use and play. The Pask example is basically foolproof and involves nothing more than Pask himself if you want to get right down to it.
which is fine if you want to run Pask, and I don't doubt it may prove quite effective, but running a Pask centered list isnt everyone's thing, and relies on lots of mechanics coming together around one relatively easily focus fired big target too.
What "long standing internal balance issues" remain untouched after every single unit has been altered in some way?
Scion/Stormtrooper weapons being unreasonably short ranged to be anything but a suicide unit (and now competing with Veterans for the same slots), Vanquisher cannons still being notably ineffective for a single shot BS3 main turret weapon on an expensive tank (particularly next to something like the Predator Annihilator that niw gets two S9 Damage D6 shots at BS4 vs 1 BS3 S8 shot with 2d6 drop lowest Damage), the Deathstrike still being a highly variable and easily neutered crapshoot, etc.
Why is giving an Armored Sentinel a 3+ save to represent it's improved armor "lazy"?
Because it's not a meaningful change for the unit. A slightly better save does not represent the difference in resiliency and role the armored sentinel had relative to the scout sentinel, AV12 closed topped vs AV10 open topped w/Outflank was a lot more meaningful than just a 3+ vs a 4+ save, one could tarpit and face heavy weapons fire while the other could not, but could at least enter from an advantageous and unexpected position, and those distinctions are diminished to the point of largely being irrelevant now.
Edit: I don't want to get into an argument over something that boils down to our own perception of these changes, but I would encourage you to have a bit more of an open mind when considering these changes. I think you might be pleasantly surprised with how your army is going to play now.
I'm trying doing exactly that, I'm just not terribly impressed with what we've seen of the IG army list thus far. I'm absolutely willing to admit I could be wrong, and I hope I am, but there looks to be a good deal of awkwardness with a lot of these units.
Like I said we definitely have a different perception of these changes. If you don't think for example that an improved 3+armor save and the loss of what is effectively a scout move sufficiently differentiates an Armored Sent from a Scout Sent, well I can't argue with that. I personally think that in a simplified 8th edition world that such differences are sufficient. Scions are now a troop choice, which means they don't compete with veteran elites, and the ability to deep strike reliably within 9 inches and have access to 2 guaranteed orders from the Tempestor Prime with Rod seems pretty good to me, especially since those -2AP Hellguns will be re rolling 1s to wound with Bring it Down. Likely still a suicide unit, but certainly much better at their job than in 7th. In fact 5 man squads with 2 volleyguns each as a Troop choice sounds pretty interesting. I don't disagree that the Vanquisher Cannon is still lackluster at BS3+. I think it still has a place on Tank Commanders, which is fluff appropriate at least. I think the only builds which were totally destroyed were ones centered around 50 man blobs. I don't think that is a bad thing myself, but I do understand how those who ran such armies would feel about that.
2017/05/31 18:29:02
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
So am I missing something or do all of these vehicles move and hit on a 5+, with the exception of the turret on a leman russ? This is going to be a miserable edition if that's the case.
2017/05/31 18:32:10
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
What "long standing internal balance issues" remain untouched after every single unit has been altered in some way?
Scion/Stormtrooper weapons being unreasonably short ranged to be anything but a suicide unit (and now competing with Veterans for the same slots), Vanquisher cannons still being notably ineffective for a single shot BS3 main turret weapon on an expensive tank (particularly next to something like the Predator Annihilator that niw gets two S9 Damage D6 shots at BS4 vs 1 BS3 S8 shot with 2d6 drop lowest Damage), the Deathstrike still being a highly variable and easily neutered crapshoot, etc.
Scions are actually Troops now.
Spoiler:
2017/05/31 18:36:07
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
jaxor1983 wrote: So am I missing something or do all of these vehicles move and hit on a 5+, with the exception of the turret on a leman russ? This is going to be a miserable edition if that's the case.
Yeah, pretty much. I think that is one reason that flamers got a bump in points, they are going to be much more useful now. Actually, with the changes to how vehicles and gun arcs work, an eight flamer baneblade could be quite interesting...
9 track attacks on the charge, ap-2 with d3 damage. It's 5+ to hit I suppose, but still not bad.
jaxor1983 wrote: So am I missing something or do all of these vehicles move and hit on a 5+, with the exception of the turret on a leman russ? This is going to be a miserable edition if that's the case.
Yeah, pretty much. I think that is one reason that flamers got a bump in points, they are going to be much more useful now. Actually, with the changes to how vehicles and gun arcs work, an eight flamer baneblade could be quite interesting...
9 track attacks on the charge, ap-2 with d3 damage. It's 5+ to hit I suppose, but still not bad.
Hellhounds with heavy flamers sound pretty nice as well.
2017/05/31 18:45:47
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
I'm tempted to say banewolves are better, due to the better synergy of ranges. If you have no targets you can advance and pop smoke, which keeps you alive longer.
One thing is fore sure, stormbolters beat stubbers if you plan to move around at all.
How close to BS4+ is BS5+ with a re-roll of 1s? Honest question, I don't know the math. Or do you "not even".
4+ is 50%, rerolled 5+ is 0.555 (the square of the two chances, subtraction of their product, IIRC)
But concerning the blobs, the orders target 1 unit, so why it cannot be one that hits on 4+?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 19:00:06
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
2017/05/31 19:00:44
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
You can drop your Stormtroopers 9" away from an enemy unit. You drop, say, 2 units of 10 and a scion commander (with his boss stick) there. He gives them both first rank, second rank.
Being 9" away means they're at half range, so they'd get 4 shots each with hotshot lasguns.
How effective would this be? I'm not good at math but that sounds pretty devastating
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/05/31 19:10:24
2017/05/31 19:19:10
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
You can drop your Stormtroopers 9" away from an enemy unit. You drop, say, 2 units of 10 and a scion commander (with his boss stick) there. He gives them both first rank, second rank.
Being 9" away means they're at half range, so they'd get 4 shots each with hotshot lasguns.
How effective would this be? I'm not good at math but that sounds pretty devastating
They are not in half range, because you have to be over 9", as in 9.000000001". Also, you need a 9 on 2d6 to charge.
You can drop your Stormtroopers 9" away from an enemy unit. You drop, say, 2 units of 10 and a scion commander (with his boss stick) there. He gives them both first rank, second rank.
Being 9" away means they're at half range, so they'd get 4 shots each with hotshot lasguns.
How effective would this be? I'm not good at math but that sounds pretty devastating
Unfortunately, due to how the Deep Strike rule is worded they'd be just *outside* 9", so they wouldn't be able to double-tap if you use their built-in deep strike.
However, if you drop them out of a couple Valkyries instead, you could move after dropping in order to get inside of 9". Though if you want to use just one Valkyrie, you'd be limited to one squad plus the commander.
2017/05/31 19:21:09
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
ross-128 wrote: However, if you drop them out of a couple Valkyries instead, you could move after dropping in order to get inside of 9". Though if you want to use just one Valkyrie, you'd be limited to one squad plus the commander.
I probably wouldn't end up using Scions in Valkyries. Sure, they are really effective, but you are paying for the deep strike rule and not using it. I would rather have vets in a valk.
Ah I missed that ST's are Troops now instead of Elites, good catch. Odd that they're Troops instead of Elites while Veterans got bumped, but I guess thats how theyre gonna fold the MT book in, which is fine.
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
2017/05/31 19:22:15
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
You can drop your Stormtroopers 9" away from an enemy unit. You drop, say, 2 units of 10 and a scion commander (with his boss stick) there. He gives them both first rank, second rank.
Being 9" away means they're at half range, so they'd get 4 shots each with hotshot lasguns.
How effective would this be? I'm not good at math but that sounds pretty devastating
Unfortunately, due to how the Deep Strike rule is worded they'd be just *outside* 9", so they wouldn't be able to double-tap if you use their built-in deep strike.
However, if you drop them out of a couple Valkyries instead, you could move after dropping in order to get inside of 9". Though if you want to use just one Valkyrie, you'd be limited to one squad plus the commander.
Ah that's true. Still, that's 24 hot-shot attacks if you jump a squad from a Valkyrie, and 16 volley-gun shots (or 4 other special weapon's worth of attacks), and whatever the Valkyrie shoots. Still seems pretty devastating
Organiser of 
3000 point 
