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 Trickstick wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
However, if you drop them out of a couple Valkyries instead, you could move after dropping in order to get inside of 9". Though if you want to use just one Valkyrie, you'd be limited to one squad plus the commander.

I probably wouldn't end up using Scions in Valkyries. Sure, they are really effective, but you are paying for the deep strike rule and not using it. I would rather have vets in a valk.

Yeah, the best use of the Valk most of the time (other than just being a sky-tank) is going to be giving a sort-of deep strike to units that don't have it. So either veterans, or suicidal special weapons teams with flamethrowers.

 Trickstick wrote:

jaxor1983 wrote:
So am I missing something or do all of these vehicles move and hit on a 5+, with the exception of the turret on a leman russ? This is going to be a miserable edition if that's the case.

Yeah, pretty much. I think that is one reason that flamers got a bump in points, they are going to be much more useful now. Actually, with the changes to how vehicles and gun arcs work, an eight flamer baneblade could be quite interesting...

9 track attacks on the charge, ap-2 with d3 damage. It's 5+ to hit I suppose, but still not bad.

I guess thy sold enough LR kits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
However, if you drop them out of a couple Valkyries instead, you could move after dropping in order to get inside of 9". Though if you want to use just one Valkyrie, you'd be limited to one squad plus the commander.

I probably wouldn't end up using Scions in Valkyries. Sure, they are really effective, but you are paying for the deep strike rule and not using it. I would rather have vets in a valk.

Yeah, the best use of the Valk most of the time (other than just being a sky-tank) is going to be giving a sort-of deep strike to units that don't have it. So either veterans, or suicidal special weapons teams with flamethrowers.

Still, the Valk is better in this edition, am I wrong? And no-scatter DS in general with a double-order HQ can give space to a decent insertion strategy.
Assuming good planning (equip included) and good placement.

One problem with all of the brigade talk, the side with the most units will probably be going second. It is alternating deployment, with whoever finishes first getting to chose when to go. Just something to keep in mind.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

jaxor1983 wrote:
So am I missing something or do all of these vehicles move and hit on a 5+, with the exception of the turret on a leman russ? This is going to be a miserable edition if that's the case.

Yeah, pretty much. I think that is one reason that flamers got a bump in points, they are going to be much more useful now. Actually, with the changes to how vehicles and gun arcs work, an eight flamer baneblade could be quite interesting...

9 track attacks on the charge, ap-2 with d3 damage. It's 5+ to hit I suppose, but still not bad.

I guess thy sold enough LR kits.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
However, if you drop them out of a couple Valkyries instead, you could move after dropping in order to get inside of 9". Though if you want to use just one Valkyrie, you'd be limited to one squad plus the commander.

I probably wouldn't end up using Scions in Valkyries. Sure, they are really effective, but you are paying for the deep strike rule and not using it. I would rather have vets in a valk.

Yeah, the best use of the Valk most of the time (other than just being a sky-tank) is going to be giving a sort-of deep strike to units that don't have it. So either veterans, or suicidal special weapons teams with flamethrowers.

Still, the Valk is better in this edition, am I wrong? And no-scatter DS in general with a double-order HQ can give space to a decent insertion strategy.
Assuming good planning (equip included) and good placement.

The Valk is definitely better this edition, those 14 wounds will easily make up for Hard to Hit going from 6+ flat to -1 modifier. Also, its anti-tank missiles are no longer one-shot, so you can keep using them all game. Though I might go with frag missile pods just because they're cheaper. Due to the change to the wound chart though, the multi-laser can pair equally well with either one.

And despite its high price, the Valkyrie is arguably the best transport in the game right now because grav-chute insertion is just that awesome. As an amazing transport and fairly decent sky-tank, it's definitely worth the points.

Edit:

As far as going second goes, that's probably going to just be the case for Imperial Guard lists in general outside of parking lots. Unless we end up getting blob squads back when the codex drops. A standard or infantry-heavy list is just going to be so littered with single-model character units, they're always going to need more turns to deploy.

So it's less a thing to consider when list building, and more a fact of life that you're going to have to plan for on the table. If you're playing Imperial Guard, you're getting second turn more often than not.

I was pretty annoyed about my russ changes and my jetbikes till I really pondered what I'm unhappy about. If the russ could move fire everything, hit on a 3+ and had little downside the switch to wounds from hullpoints would be really OP. Some weapons got worse some got better imo the ( demolisher is pretty sweet )

tanks are very good in this edition especially if I have 12 or 15 of them. Also everyone complaining about lack of fast attack the hellhound is absurd for 75pts

I think, that even with our tank guns being crap, I'm going to stick with armoured battlegroup, because they're also hard to kill, and can still manage to take and hold positions

Rolling around with a parking lot full of tanks looks like it will be nearly impossible to dislodge, especially considering the price of the tanks versus the price of antitank units.

 gainsay wrote:
tanks are very good in this edition especially if I have 12 or 15 of them. Also everyone complaining about lack of fast attack the hellhound is absurd for 75pts

That's before you put weapons on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I think, that even with our tank guns being crap, I'm going to stick with armoured battlegroup, because they're also hard to kill, and can still manage to take and hold positions.

The rules for objectives read "If you have more models than your opponent". Tanks will have a hard time holding objectives.

 labmouse42 wrote:

 gainsay wrote:
tanks are very good in this edition especially if I have 12 or 15 of them. Also everyone complaining about lack of fast attack the hellhound is absurd for 75pts

That's before you put weapons on it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
I think, that even with our tank guns being crap, I'm going to stick with armoured battlegroup, because they're also hard to kill, and can still manage to take and hold positions.

The rules for objectives read "If you have more models than your opponent". Tanks will have a hard time holding objectives.

Capture radius is 3" right? If I sit my tank directly on top of the point, the enemy basically can't get to it. The Leman Russ Tank is about 3" wide and 5" long. A pair of tanks parked side-by-side locks an objective sitting in the open down completely, and if the objective is against a wall or something as most are on my battlefields, then the tank basically just has to sit there and not die. If I bring a bunch of tanks, the enemy will be hard pressed to dislodge me from the objectives, since CQC isn't a death sentence for the tank either.

I am going to miss camo netting though. I thought they might change how it works, I wasn't expecting them to just drop an Exterminatus on it.

RIP
Camo Netting
1993-2017
+1 to cover saves

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Capture radius is 3" right? If I sit my tank directly on top of the point, the enemy basically can't get to it. The Leman Russ Tank is about 3" wide and 5" long. A pair of tanks parked side-by-side locks an objective sitting in the open down completely, and if the objective is against a wall or something as most are on my battlefields, then the tank basically just has to sit there and not die. If I bring a bunch of tanks, the enemy will be hard pressed to dislodge me from the objectives, since CQC isn't a death sentence for the tank either.

You can assault the tank and wrap withing range of the objective. A super-heavy or Land Raider can pull this off, but a LRBT is just not big enough.

Don't get me wrong. In the list I'm going to playtest a few times, I am bringing lots of tanks. I just realize their limitations.

Has anyone seen the Master of the Fleet yet? Do we know what role he has?

 Formerly Wu wrote:
Has anyone seen the Master of the Fleet yet? Do we know what role he has?

He helps coordinate fire for friendly aeronautica units giving them a bonus to hit and once a game can call in an airstrike on a +4 that can deal mortal wounds.

So his role has changed a bit to where he actually works with the air support in your army instead of just manipulating reserve rolls. For 25pts he's not bad if you're bringing a bunch of air units.

 Formerly Wu wrote:
Has anyone seen the Master of the Fleet yet? Do we know what role he has?

Officer of the fleet, 3 wounds.
Gets a one use "on a 4+ unit takes d3 mortal wounds, on 6 takes 3" strafing run ability.
Also gets "choose ground unit. aeronautica units reroll 1s to hit against it that turn" can use every turn ability.

25 pts.

I mean, he is cheap and pretty nice if you bring Valks (which are Aeronautica Imperialis faction). Not really a knock out though.

Thanks, but I actually meant battlefield role. Elite or HQ?

Sound like he got some nice support buffs.

Well, having seen all the rules, I can now officially state that for every thing in the IG list I like, there's about 3 things I dislike.

We're still missing a bunch of characters from 5th, but I'm hoping the later codex release will be more fleshed out. The Russes are seem decidedly meh at first glance, but I'll have to do a thorough go over and compare to all other MBT/Heavy Support style tanks and see where they stand. That being said, the Exterminator Autocannon is pretty pathetic, and the Executioner seems pretty masochistic. My Russes will likely end up as whatever variant FW decides to make reasonable, like the Annihilator or a proper Vanq with the BH shells. Arty looks...okay I guess. MoO at least has a role now as a support model than as a pocket sized Basilisk.

I don't want to be sour, but feth, Vets didn't deserve that nerf. I know I can run the Elites heavy detachment, but having them as troops would be infinitely more flexible for list building. Losing carapace is frankly just idiotic. Plus, being 20pts more for a squad for a point of BS and the option for more specials (at the loss of being troops) is another kick.

Hydras didn't quite their old tracking rule back, but at least now they aren't totally gimped if your opponent didn't bring any Fly units. Sentinels and Rough Riders got better, so there's that I suppose.

All in all, the Guard still feel fairly flavourless lacking any true regimental differentiation and with several older options/abilities still missing. I'll be anxiously looking forward to what FW rolls out for their pet regiments and other lists.

Until then, it looks like I'll be assembling my arty battery and building lots of troops. I suppose Chimeras are relatively stronger than other faction transports, so maybe I'll do a mech platoon. Would still rather a mechanized grenadier force, but them's the breaks.

Looking forward to the analysis of several posters on this forum though, the IG players here generally have a good head.

 Formerly Wu wrote:
Thanks, but I actually meant battlefield role. Elite or HQ?

Sound like he got some nice support buffs.

Elite.

Has anyone thought of a use for command squads? They just seem really bad. No ablative wounds and most of the special equipment is pointless. Maybe as transported suicide units? I would just rather have more characters and squads to be honest.

I'm also going to add that I absolutely loathe the vast amount of D3/D6 weapons. Just fething commit to a value. Save me the roll, let me have one shred of control and predictability.

I've been fairly positive about this edition, and there's still quite a few things I like, but man, its like they go out of their way sometimes to adhere to the "one step forwards, two steps back" policy they've rocked for a long time.

 Blacksails wrote:
I'm also going to add that I absolutely loathe the vast amount of D3/D6 weapons. Just fething commit to a value. Save me the roll, let me have one shred of control and predictability.

I've been fairly positive about this edition, and there's still quite a few things I like, but man, its like they go out of their way sometimes to adhere to the "one step forwards, two steps back" policy they've rocked for a long time.

I agree. Random number of shots can be extremely annoying.

 Trickstick wrote:

Elite.

My Aeronautica Imperialis army has been invalidated!

I figured, but thought I'd check. The 2-HQ requirement for a Battalion is kind of grating to my OCD sense of organization.

Has anyone thought of a use for command squads? They just seem really bad. No ablative wounds and most of the special equipment is pointless. Maybe as transported suicide units? I would just rather have more characters and squads to be honest.

They're the same cost and slot as a SWS, but can carry an extra special or some minor support buffs instead of a demo charge. More bodies on the field to block off your characters, I suppose.

All in all, the Guard still feel fairly flavourless lacking any true regimental differentiation and with several older options/abilities still missing. I'll be anxiously looking forward to what FW rolls out for their pet regiments and other lists.

That's been a common complaint with the Index armies, and one which I expect to be fixed with the codex release.

Huh, now that you mention it, you could just load some command squads up with four special weapons and Valkyrie drop three of them...

It would be quite an expensive suicide unit at 6 per plus weapons, but it would also be hitting with something like twelve melta/plasma guns at BS3+. If only there was also an equivalent for the PCS that was just four Guardsmen at 4/model and BS4+, it'd be 44 points for four flamers (with the CCS it's 52). I guess them being vets only adds 8 points to it though, so they'd be 4 points cheaper than a SWT before you add the fourth weapon.

 ross-128 wrote:
Huh, now that you mention it, you could just load some command squads up with four special weapons and Valkyrie drop three of them...

It would be quite an expensive suicide unit at 6 per plus weapons, but it would also be hitting with something like twelve melta/plasma guns at BS3+. If only there was also an equivalent for the PCS that was just four Guardsmen at 4/model and BS4+, it'd be 44 points for four flamers (with the CCS it's 52). I guess them being vets only adds 8 points to it though, so they'd be 4 points cheaper than a SWT before you add the fourth weapon.

How much does it costs to load 2 command squads with 4 plasma +pistol in a Valkyrie, add a Prime with double order and give the order to reroll the "1" results while they overcharge ALL the plasma weapons?
Plasma is cheap for the guard now, am I wrong?

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
Huh, now that you mention it, you could just load some command squads up with four special weapons and Valkyrie drop three of them...

It would be quite an expensive suicide unit at 6 per plus weapons, but it would also be hitting with something like twelve melta/plasma guns at BS3+. If only there was also an equivalent for the PCS that was just four Guardsmen at 4/model and BS4+, it'd be 44 points for four flamers (with the CCS it's 52). I guess them being vets only adds 8 points to it though, so they'd be 4 points cheaper than a SWT before you add the fourth weapon.

How much does it costs to load 2 command squads with 4 plasma +pistol in a Valkyrie, add a Prime with double order and give the order to reroll the "1" results while they overcharge ALL the plasma weapons?
Plasma is cheap for the guard now, am I wrong?

Plasma is amusingly 7 points per model just like the flamer, so 52 points for each command squad. There'd be no pistols though, the command squad is just four Veteran models with no commander now (he's an IC). So you're looking at 104 points for two of them, then probably 30 points for a company commander to give orders to both of them since he's a lot cheaper than a Tempestor Prime.

You are not gaining that much from the Valkyrie. You could do exactly the same thing without it, you just can't move and charge after dropping. Saves you a lot of points too. I'm doing a similar thing but with tempestor and basic scions for extra bodies, which costs 296. If you used command squads, it would be 168 pts. That is pretty cheap but I like the idea of more bodies, gives them some staying power. With command squads, you are removing plasma with any casualties. Also, you are using elite slots and not troops, and elite slots are pretty bloated already.

 Blacksails wrote:
The Russes are seem decidedly meh at first glance.

Run the mathhammer on them. They do decent damage output when combined with tanks commanders. They are also pretty durable too.

 Blacksails wrote:
Executioner seems pretty masochistic.

Only if you supersize the shots. You can also use a tank commander to greatly mitigate the risk. 1/6 down to 1/36.

 Blacksails wrote:
I don't want to be sour, but feth, Vets didn't deserve that nerf. I know I can run the Elites heavy detachment, but having them as troops would be infinitely more flexible for list building. Losing carapace is frankly just idiotic. Plus, being 20pts more for a squad for a point of BS and the option for more specials (at the loss of being troops) is another kick.

Are vets the go-to they were in previous editions. No. But they are not totally useless either. If I'm looking for a melta-squad to drop out of a valk to suicide into a tough target, they are still a solid choice.
Valks are fantastic transports. They are the only transport that lets units move after disembarking from them.

Hydras didn't quite their old tracking rule back, but at least now they aren't totally gimped if your opponent didn't bring any Fly units. Sentinels and Rough Riders got better, so there's that I suppose.

Worth noting that Fly units inlcude pretty much all Skimmers and Jump pack units - Assault Marines, Seraphim etc

 Trickstick wrote:
You are not gaining that much from the Valkyrie. You could do exactly the same thing without it, you just can't move and charge after dropping. Saves you a lot of points too. I'm doing a similar thing but with tempestor and basic scions for extra bodies, which costs 296. If you used command squads, it would be 168 pts. That is pretty cheap but I like the idea of more bodies, gives them some staying power. With command squads, you are removing plasma with any casualties. Also, you are using elite slots and not troops, and elite slots are pretty bloated already.

Yeah, part of the reason I kind of wish I had the option to get a BS4+ "junior command squad" for 4/model. 132 points for a 12-flamer surprise barbecue would be hilarious, 156 points to do the same thing is a bit on the pricey side especially when the flamer is getting zero benefit from BS3+. (well, it would also require a nearly 200 point transport, but that transport can then proceed to be a nearly 200 point sky-tank after making the drop so it's not a complete loss)

So, to bring back an old debate. Are we thinking Snipers in Special Weapon Squads or Ratlings?

 Arbitrator wrote:
So, to bring back an old debate. Are we thinking Snipers in Special Weapon Squads or Ratlings?

Ratlings! I have no maths to back it up, but they are better BS, can infiltrate, scoot and shoot, and have +1 cover.

A sniper sws is 42 for 3 snipers, 3 lasguns. You can get 6 Ratlings for that.

I'd say it's no contest. If you want snipers, it's Ratlings all the way.

A little frustrating that camo and carapace aren't around anymore, but I gotta say; at 40 points (min) for a troop choice, we will DOMINATE command points. Stratagems for days folks!