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2017/06/01 00:27:32
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
InquisitorKnickers wrote: A little frustrating that camo and carapace aren't around anymore, but I gotta say; at 40 points (min) for a troop choice, we will DOMINATE command points. Stratagems for days folks!
On the down side, be prepared to go second a lot. It may be worth using conscripts to bubble wrap your army, combined with plenty of reserves to keep your killy units safe. Mass scion drops, valkyrie reinforcements and fast tanks are all viable turn 1 reserves. Non-random reserves are a huge strategic change.
Arbitrator wrote: So, to bring back an old debate. Are we thinking Snipers in Special Weapon Squads or Ratlings?
Ratlings! I have no maths to back it up, but they are better BS, can infiltrate, scoot and shoot, and have +1 cover.
A sniper sws is 42 for 3 snipers, 3 lasguns. You can get 6 Ratlings for that.
If you have a free elite slot, I agree.
Otherwise IG squads that are sitting on objectives can grab them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
InquisitorKnickers wrote: A little frustrating that camo and carapace aren't around anymore, but I gotta say; at 40 points (min) for a troop choice, we will DOMINATE command points. Stratagems for days folks!
If you want carapace, grab Scions.
Scions are now 9 points before gear. That's cheaper than old vets with carapace.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 00:53:05
2017/06/01 00:53:23
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
InquisitorKnickers wrote: A little frustrating that camo and carapace aren't around anymore, but I gotta say; at 40 points (min) for a troop choice, we will DOMINATE command points. Stratagems for days folks!
On the down side, be prepared to go second a lot. It may be worth using conscripts to bubble wrap your army, combined with plenty of reserves to keep your killy units safe. Mass scion drops, valkyrie reinforcements and fast tanks are all viable turn 1 reserves. Non-random reserves are a huge strategic change.
Why would the Guard player go second often?
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2017/06/01 01:00:08
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
InquisitorKnickers wrote: A little frustrating that camo and carapace aren't around anymore, but I gotta say; at 40 points (min) for a troop choice, we will DOMINATE command points. Stratagems for days folks!
On the down side, be prepared to go second a lot. It may be worth using conscripts to bubble wrap your army, combined with plenty of reserves to keep your killy units safe. Mass scion drops, valkyrie reinforcements and fast tanks are all viable turn 1 reserves. Non-random reserves are a huge strategic change.
Why would the Guard player go second often?
In all of the eternal war and maelstrom missions, player alternate deploying units. The player who finishes deploying first gets to choose to go first or second. You can still try to seize with cp reroll if you want.
Error found,
Demolisher Cannons are listed as D6 vs units of 5 or more models in all unit entries where they're mentioned, but D6 vs units of 10 or more models in the armory listing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 01:09:54
2017/06/01 01:15:30
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Just trying to find a good way to mitigate these new blast mechanics (for the record I hate them) which hurt poor bs units more.
As far as Russes go, if I want to run just one, I would pay the 35 points for the commander every time, just consider it the veteran upgrade that we've always wanted and we've got the HQ slot space now. If I was using a normal russ, I think I would always pair it with a tank commander so the order can give it's turret at least something closer to a higher bs. I think a "number of shots" roll would be the best one to use a stratagem on.
Idk maybe in this setup you can load up the normal russ with flamers (make up for the poor bs) and send it in first as a screen for the tank commander.
I also see Pask as a must have if you can use Cadians.
Ignispacium wrote: Error found,
Demolisher Cannons are listed as D6 vs units of 5 or more models in all unit entries where they're mentioned, but D6 vs units of 10 or more models in the armory listing.
Yeah, I saw that earlier and the most likely answer seems to be that the 10 is a typo since the 5 appears more than once.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/06/01 01:23:12
2017/06/01 02:14:00
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
InquisitorKnickers wrote: A little frustrating that camo and carapace aren't around anymore, but I gotta say; at 40 points (min) for a troop choice, we will DOMINATE command points. Stratagems for days folks!
This is exactly my thinking too. Throw in Creed for even more. Having 20 CPs when you have so many D6, 2D6, 4D6 shot weapons combined with re-rolls from orders seems to me like it will be quite powerful.
Chris521 wrote: Just trying to find a good way to mitigate these new blast mechanics (for the record I hate them) which hurt poor bs units more.
As far as Russes go, if I want to run just one, I would pay the 35 points for the commander every time, just consider it the veteran upgrade that we've always wanted and we've got the HQ slot space now. If I was using a normal russ, I think I would always pair it with a tank commander so the order can give it's turret at least something closer to a higher bs. I think a "number of shots" roll would be the best one to use a stratagem on.
Idk maybe in this setup you can load up the normal russ with flamers (make up for the poor bs) and send it in first as a screen for the tank commander.
I also see Pask as a must have if you can use Cadians.
Remember all those Command points we will be sitting on? If you don't like the result of your roll for the blast just re-roll it. I agree Pask is going to be a monster in a Vanq.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 02:17:52
2017/06/01 02:57:48
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
InquisitorKnickers wrote: A little frustrating that camo and carapace aren't around anymore, but I gotta say; at 40 points (min) for a troop choice, we will DOMINATE command points. Stratagems for days folks!
This is exactly my thinking too. Throw in Creed for even more. Having 20 CPs when you have so many D6, 2D6, 4D6 shot weapons combined with re-rolls from orders seems to me like it will be quite powerful.
Chris521 wrote: Just trying to find a good way to mitigate these new blast mechanics (for the record I hate them) which hurt poor bs units more.
As far as Russes go, if I want to run just one, I would pay the 35 points for the commander every time, just consider it the veteran upgrade that we've always wanted and we've got the HQ slot space now. If I was using a normal russ, I think I would always pair it with a tank commander so the order can give it's turret at least something closer to a higher bs. I think a "number of shots" roll would be the best one to use a stratagem on.
Idk maybe in this setup you can load up the normal russ with flamers (make up for the poor bs) and send it in first as a screen for the tank commander.
I also see Pask as a must have if you can use Cadians.
Remember all those Command points we will be sitting on? If you don't like the result of your roll for the blast just re-roll it. I agree Pask is going to be a monster in a Vanq.
But, you can only use the re-roll once per phase..
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
2017/06/01 03:30:38
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
So, just noodling around with some points. The following is a complete Battalion (+3CPs) and just a hair over 400 points
2 Company Commanders
1 Infantry Squad Ac/Plas/vox
2 5-man Scion Squads, 2 GL ea
3 Hvy Weapon Teams all AC
That;s 10 Auto Cannons, with enough orders to reroll every squad every turn plus a couple of annoying DS Scion Squads. Or add about 15 points and just roll out two more AC/Plas Squads instead of the Scions. Whatever props your tent.
The same silliness but with HB is around 330.
BTW I'm liking the Grenade Launcher, range 24" can keep the scions out of trouble, it's decent a S6 -1AP, but most importantly does D3 wounds. 4 of those at BS 3+ is kinda hot.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
2017/06/01 03:31:59
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Formerly Wu wrote: Thanks, but I actually meant battlefield role. Elite or HQ?
Sound like he got some nice support buffs.
Elite.
Has anyone thought of a use for command squads? They just seem really bad. No ablative wounds and most of the special equipment is pointless. Maybe as transported suicide units? I would just rather have more characters and squads to be honest.
You can arm 3 squads to the teeth with plasma and throw them in a single valkyrie/chimera.
12 plasma guns with literally 0 chaff models thrown in. Get them close to something, overcharge every single one, and completely murder a target nearby. I'm not really sure why we even have special weapon squads when these guys are superior in almost every way and share a slot.
Realistically you'd want two with a couple of platoon commanders thrown in to let them reroll the ones, but honestly if they're firing at something that needs 12 overcharged plasma guns they're probably not coming out of that alive anyways. Plus with plasmas being only 7pts a gun you'd be insane to not take as much as humanly possible. I mean seriously, Plasma is incredibly good now, guard has an autopass order that mitigates it's only drawback, and you're pretty much going to always overcharge it because you're a guard player and you're used to them killing themselves anyways.
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
2017/06/01 03:42:45
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Ignispacium wrote: I'm a little confused by the wording on Command Squads.
Can I take 4x special weapons or is the vox caster and/or pistol+chainsword mandatory before taking 3x?
The Tempestus Command squad has similar wording, but also suggests you can equip the entire squad with special weapons.
There's a long list of things phrased "veteran may", then "Any Other Veteran" for the SW. So any veteran you don't upgrade or exchange in another way can take a SW.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
2017/06/01 04:08:36
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Right so after having some time to read over it (granted it will take a few days for us to grasp exactly what all this means compared to other factions and playing with the rules) I'm not entirely sure how I feel about Guard in 8th yet. There are a lot of things I like, some things I don't like, and a couple of things I really don't like, but every army is being shaken up quite a bit so time will tell if they're really issues at all
The good
Spoiler:
+Plasma is god for Imperial Guard now. Seriously there is no sane reason to not take it in most squads, it's just that handy. We have an autopass order on characters that cost a whopping 20-30 pts to reroll ones, you should be abusing the heck out of plasma wherever you can. Flamers cost the same, Meltas cost more, Grenade Launchers are only 2pts cheaper for much less damage, and snipers should be ratlings if you can help it. Now, this isn't saying these weapons don't have a place in a list, it's just you need to build a unit with them in mind. Whereas if I'm sitting there thinking "I need this to be a good generalist unit" the answer should just be plasma. As far as I'm concerned, plasma became more powerful, got cheaper, and essentially kills guardsmen just as much as it used to, except now you have the option to ignore the gets hot roll if you're just lazily chucking shots into something and don't need to risk the gunner. In general we are going to have so many special weapons it's going to make what we fought with in pre 8th edition look like sticks and rocks, we just have so many options for cramming more special weapons into a list now.
+Autocannons are a very consistent weapon in a world of D3/D6, much like plasma. I expect many Guard players will make heavy use of them to ensure at least some predictability in their shooting phases. Missile Launchers and Lascannons don't seem bad, but you'll be much more vulnerable to variation with their performance and will be at the mercy of the dice gods.
+Medics are very good if you can find room for them. They'll be able to bring back characters and special/heavy weapons on a 4+, which will be very handy for just 10pts. This means you'll be able to bring back officers, commissars, masters of ordnance, etc, if you're smart with positioning and keep the medics alive. I don't think you'll get to use it much, after the first time you pull it off I think your opponent will learn to kill your medics, but it's a good trick to keep in mind.
+We are going to be the masters of command points. I'm honestly concerned that we'll even be able to spend all the points we get in a single game. Even the largest formations are essentially just what we took as a single troops choice last edition
+Harker looks like a not terrible investment for a Catachan army. I know most people don't care but I have a Catachan platoon and a Harker model so I thought it was kind of neat that he buffs shooting for all friendly Catachans nearby.
+Commissars are great now, even the basic ones are very good at their job now and with them all having an aura of effect and helping to mitigate battleshock, I'm glad I have so many in my collection. I honestly think the average guard army will have so many character models it simply won't be possible to kill all of them for an army that has a normal amount of snipers, and if they do have enough snipers to kill our characters off by turn 3 odds are they're just going to die to the rest of the army at that point. We'll see if I'm right on that though
+I like the new transport stats, but they're very literally battle taxis now. That said Tauroxes offer a surprising amount of firepower on a fast package and Chimeras can bring a lot of guardsmen to key points quickly. I think an armored counterattack force will serve most guard players well, if only to grab objectives or shore up a hole in the line, but I'll need to test it. At the very least 3 command squads armed to the teeth with plasma sounds too deliciously evil to not try at least once.
The Neutral
Spoiler:
==== (neutral) Good bye first turn, it was nice knowing you. There is no way any other army in the game is going to come close to us in the amount of units they're bringing. Maybe we'll have a way to be cute with deploying in vehicles to mitigate it, but I doubt it. On the other hand, we can cheese the heck out of almost any army in the deployment phase thanks to alternating deployment. We will have so many cheap, small units that we can just stall until the opponent has played his hand and deployed his most important units, then react in kind. Especially if you bring stormtroopers and the like that you can chuck into reserve
The Bad
Spoiler:
-Leman Russes remain to be seen how useful they are. I feel many of our weapons should be more effective than they are but perhaps our orders and numbers will balance it out. I'm not holding my breath though and expect them to be something that gets tweaked into the next codex. Many vehicles seem a bit underwhelming at first glance honestly but I know the Russes stood out the most for me, as with most players I looked forward to trying out a proper IG tank company at some point. At least we can split our squadrons after deployment now.
-No marbo, chenkov, Al'Raheem, Bastogne, etc. Although honestly if they do come back they'll come back with the proper IG codex, I'm not surprised to not see them here.
-as expected with going into 8th, many units lost options they formally had, especially vets. No camo gear or carapace really sucks, even though technically we can bring 3 special weapons, a heavy flamer, and a heavy weapon if I'm reading the entry right. Of course, this is mainly due to the codexes we have now being placeholders, we'll probably see this come back with the main book
------------COMBINED INFANTRY SQUADS ARE GONE - I don't even have to explain that one honestly. I'm sure I can work around it, but it's clearly meant to make us work for our orders a bit more and bring more officers. Hope it comes back in 8th, or even just a "combined squad" troop choice where you just buy them that way.
Our biggest hurdle will be figuring out how to get used to MSU infantry again and the fact that we can no longer shoot out of transports. We have ways to mitigate this (conscripts especially as well as just about everyone else dealing with the transport change too) but there will absolutely be some growing pains. I expect many IG players will have a rough time learning how to adapt to the new edition. We will definitely take some finesse to play this edition, mainly in that proper splitting of fire, using the right orders at the right time, proper screening of important units, reliance on characters, and abusing the crap out of as many command abilities as we can will all be huge. For example, I know one mission takes place in the dark where everyone essentially has stealth. There's a command ability that lets you mark a target with flares to dispel it for 2cps. We can pop that every turn and still have points to spare in even a 1000pts list.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 04:09:59
'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader
"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell
2017/06/01 04:15:35
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
I think I can squeeze two of the battalions I listed above, one AC and one HB, plus Creed into 1000 pts. That's what, 11 CP to play with and 12 orders a round? Yeah, AM should be fine for CPs.
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
2017/06/01 04:26:29
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
It really depend on what other strategems there will be. So far, we can use 5 (assuming 5 turns) for rerolls and I doubt we will need to autopass leadership check every turn if we have enough commissars. Though extra command points could be used to save a few points on commissars.
2017/06/01 04:32:36
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Plus seizing the initiative and other pre-game shenanigans. You could use some there too. The list is solid for rerolls TH though, even w/o CPs...
It's essentially 15 or 20 points per infantry squad to get them rerolls TH every turn (either CC or PC). There's enough HQ/E slots to essentially spam that until your hand cramps too. One battalion has enough slots to fit 2 CCs and 6 PCs - that's 10 orders a turn (and 180 pts, but hey).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 04:34:56
He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all.
2017/06/01 04:40:59
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Well. Looks like I need to buy more Guardsmen, I took a look at.my collection and there's a lot more treads than boots in there!
TheEyeOfNight- I swear, this thread is 70% smack talk, 20% RP organization, and 10% butt jokes
TheEyeOfNight- "Ordo Xenos reports that the Necrons have attained democracy, kamikaze tendencies, and nuclear fission. It's all tits up, sir."
Space Marine flyers are shaped for the greatest possible air resistance so that the air may never defeat the SPACE MARINES!
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum
2017/06/01 04:54:09
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Right so after having some time to read over it (granted it will take a few days for us to grasp exactly what all this means compared to other factions and playing with the rules) I'm not entirely sure how I feel about Guard in 8th yet. There are a lot of things I like, some things I don't like, and a couple of things I really don't like, but every army is being shaken up quite a bit so time will tell if they're really issues at all
The good
[spoiler]
+Plasma is god for Imperial Guard now. Seriously there is no sane reason to not take it in most squads, it's just that handy. We have an autopass order on characters that cost a whopping 20-30 pts to reroll ones, you should be abusing the heck out of plasma wherever you can. Flamers cost the same, Meltas cost more, Grenade Launchers are only 2pts cheaper for much less damage, and snipers should be ratlings if you can help it. Now, this isn't saying these weapons don't have a place in a list, it's just you need to build a unit with them in mind. Whereas if I'm sitting there thinking "I need this to be a good generalist unit" the answer should just be plasma. As far as I'm concerned, plasma became more powerful, got cheaper, and essentially kills guardsmen just as much as it used to, except now you have the option to ignore the gets hot roll if you're just lazily chucking shots into something and don't need to risk the gunner. In general we are going to have so many special weapons it's going to make what we fought with in pre 8th edition look like sticks and rocks, we just have so many options for cramming more special weapons into a list now.
+Autocannons are a very consistent weapon in a world of D3/D6, much like plasma. I expect many Guard players will make heavy use of them to ensure at least some predictability in their shooting phases. Missile Launchers and Lascannons don't seem bad, but you'll be much more vulnerable to variation with their performance and will be at the mercy of the dice gods.
+Medics are very good if you can find room for them. They'll be able to bring back characters and special/heavy weapons on a 4+, which will be very handy for just 10pts. This means you'll be able to bring back officers, commissars, masters of ordnance, etc, if you're smart with positioning and keep the medics alive. I don't think you'll get to use it much, after the first time you pull it off I think your opponent will learn to kill your medics, but it's a good trick to keep in mind.
+We are going to be the masters of command points. I'm honestly concerned that we'll even be able to spend all the points we get in a single game. Even the largest formations are essentially just what we took as a single troops choice last edition
+Harker looks like a not terrible investment for a Catachan army. I know most people don't care but I have a Catachan platoon and a Harker model so I thought it was kind of neat that he buffs shooting for all friendly Catachans nearby.
+Commissars are great now, even the basic ones are very good at their job now and with them all having an aura of effect and helping to mitigate battleshock, I'm glad I have so many in my collection. I honestly think the average guard army will have so many character models it simply won't be possible to kill all of them for an army that has a normal amount of snipers, and if they do have enough snipers to kill our characters off by turn 3 odds are they're just going to die to the rest of the army at that point. We'll see if I'm right on that though
+I like the new transport stats, but they're very literally battle taxis now. That said Tauroxes offer a surprising amount of firepower on a fast package and Chimeras can bring a lot of guardsmen to key points quickly. I think an armored counterattack force will serve most guard players well, if only to grab objectives or shore up a hole in the line, but I'll need to test it. At the very least 3 command squads armed to the teeth with plasma sounds too deliciously evil to not try at least once.
The Neutral
Spoiler:
==== (neutral) Good bye first turn, it was nice knowing you. There is no way any other army in the game is going to come close to us in the amount of units they're bringing. Maybe we'll have a way to be cute with deploying in vehicles to mitigate it, but I doubt it. On the other hand, we can cheese the heck out of almost any army in the deployment phase thanks to alternating deployment. We will have so many cheap, small units that we can just stall until the opponent has played his hand and deployed his most important units, then react in kind. Especially if you bring stormtroopers and the like that you can chuck into reserve
The Bad
Spoiler:
-Leman Russes remain to be seen how useful they are. I feel many of our weapons should be more effective than they are but perhaps our orders and numbers will balance it out. I'm not holding my breath though and expect them to be something that gets tweaked into the next codex. Many vehicles seem a bit underwhelming at first glance honestly but I know the Russes stood out the most for me, as with most players I looked forward to trying out a proper IG tank company at some point. At least we can split our squadrons after deployment now.
-No marbo, chenkov, Al'Raheem, Bastogne, etc. Although honestly if they do come back they'll come back with the proper IG codex, I'm not surprised to not see them here.
-as expected with going into 8th, many units lost options they formally had, especially vets. No camo gear or carapace really sucks, even though technically we can bring 3 special weapons, a heavy flamer, and a heavy weapon if I'm reading the entry right. Of course, this is mainly due to the codexes we have now being placeholders, we'll probably see this come back with the main book
------------COMBINED INFANTRY SQUADS ARE GONE - I don't even have to explain that one honestly. I'm sure I can work around it, but it's clearly meant to make us work for our orders a bit more and bring more officers. Hope it comes back in 8th, or even just a "combined squad" troop choice where you just buy them that way.
Our biggest hurdle will be figuring out how to get used to MSU infantry again and the fact that we can no longer shoot out of transports. We have ways to mitigate this (conscripts especially as well as just about everyone else dealing with the transport change too) but there will absolutely be some growing pains. I expect many IG players will have a rough time learning how to adapt to the new edition. We will definitely take some finesse to play this edition, mainly in that proper splitting of fire, using the right orders at the right time, proper screening of important units, reliance on characters, and abusing the crap out of as many command abilities as we can will all be huge. For example, I know one mission takes place in the dark where everyone essentially has stealth. There's a command ability that lets you mark a target with flares to dispel it for 2cps. We can pop that every turn and still have points to spare in even a 1000pts list. [/spoiler]
Well said!
An excellent summary of my own hopes and fears for the coming edition. Guard players need to make the most out of these CPs, we are going to be rolling in them even in small matches. The only thing I have trouble with is filling the HQ slots, and a 30 point Company Commander sorts that out.
I'm a fan of the focus on Blob conscripts rather than guardsmen, but that's a fluff thing rather than a rules mechanic that I objected to. While gun lines are going to dread those deep-strike-assaults (which is what I imagine most CC armies will be reserving their re-rolls for), falling back and folding ranks of fire is now an option where it wasn't before.
I'm excited to get back into the hobby with 8th edition.
Psienesis wrote: I've... seen things... you people wouldn't believe. Milk cartons on fire off the shoulder of 3rd-hour English; I watched Cheez-beams glitter in the dark near the Admin Parking Gate... All those... moments... will be lost, in time, like tears... in... rain. Time... to die.
"The Emperor points, and we obey,
Through the warp and far away."
-A Guardsman's Ballad
2017/06/01 05:37:07
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
In all seriousness though. 8th edition is all about infantry. If you want to know what to buy. Buy infantry. Then buy more infantry. Not only have their points decreased in many cases, but their damage output has increased significantly. I can tell you with 100% certainty right now any guard list competing in serious tournaments in 8th edition will have 200+ infantry minimum. While heavy weapons teams did not get special rules, their point costs went down substantially. Any serious IG player will be rocking 9+ of these this edition.
Armor is out, infantry is in. How do I know? Math. Any serious competitive list cannot rely on RNG. Even if you rolled 6 on the D6 shots every single time, you still have to pass the ballistic skill check, reducing your damage output by half on average. Then you have to consider the changes to cover etc putting your average to around 1-2 wounds. Then you need to consider we are finding that many armies we have seen thus far will be assaulting your gunline turn 1 & gauranteed turn 2. Your long ranged artillery & tanks do little good when the enemy is already ontop of you.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 05:37:51
2017/06/01 05:53:47
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Rumor Roundup - Post em if you got em!
Already shown through the math. Battle cannon is only better on lower saves(4+,5+,and 6+) and lucky rolls. Vanquisher is better against heavy targets.
Both have a chance to fire 1 shot and miss. But if the vanquisher hits with a single shot that shot is more likely to do more damage than the battle cannon hitting with 2 shots. The battle cannon can, if the dice all go in your favor put 3x damage in a single turn. It is worth a try if you have no other anti-big'uns guns left or have already killed all the med-heavy infantry.
3.5 shots in average, hit on 4+, wound on 4+(let's say T8 2+ save target like land raider), target saves on 4+, d3 damage=0.875 damage through
Vanquisher shoots 1 hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+, target saves on 5+ and does in average 4.5 wounds per damage=0.75 damage through.
Yeah both can shoot 1 if russ rolls badly but then again vanquisher can roll 1 damage as well. You don't factor in lucky "woo 18 damage" but averages.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2017/06/01 06:23:15
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Rumor Roundup - Post em if you got em!
Already shown through the math. Battle cannon is only better on lower saves(4+,5+,and 6+) and lucky rolls. Vanquisher is better against heavy targets.
Both have a chance to fire 1 shot and miss. But if the vanquisher hits with a single shot that shot is more likely to do more damage than the battle cannon hitting with 2 shots. The battle cannon can, if the dice all go in your favor put 3x damage in a single turn. It is worth a try if you have no other anti-big'uns guns left or have already killed all the med-heavy infantry.
3.5 shots in average, hit on 4+, wound on 4+(let's say T8 2+ save target like land raider), target saves on 4+, d3 damage=0.875 damage through
Vanquisher shoots 1 hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+, target saves on 5+ and does in average 4.5 wounds per damage=0.75 damage through.
Yeah both can shoot 1 if russ rolls badly but then again vanquisher can roll 1 damage as well. You don't factor in lucky "woo 18 damage" but averages.
Except your not calculating averages. You need to do an actual statistical analysis and go with 1 and 3 models to make sure there isnt a gap created by a peritale distribution.
If ypu do you will find Vanquisher is better at killing big things. On top of that you need to calculate the probability of what you will roll for damage on average. If i was a betting man I would put my money on 6 damage.. And i would get paid almost 30% of the time.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/01 06:28:36
2017/06/01 06:27:46
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
rabidguineapig wrote: It's nice that we can take lone infantry squads to get the Brigade Detachment bonuses, considering it requires 6 troops. That would have cost a fortune under the old format.
Exactly. Those saying "but you could just take a cheap platoon and split the squads" seem to think that 130pts x 6 to field a Brigade would somehow be reasonable. Of course when you try and force 8th edition units into your 7th edition paradigm you end up with all sorts of questionable reasoning.
Of course there's nothing that would prevent having ability to take brigades and/or blop...
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2017/06/01 06:28:30
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
I was shocked when I totalled up the points costs for my army, in 7th it is around 2,250-2,300... now it isn't even 2,000 points. I have to find a way to add an additional 76 points if I want to get to 2k again... plasma pistols for everything haha. And I will be painting some of my Tallarn's shoulder pads white with a cross on them in each of my command squads just to spend points and take medics.
Kind of off topic, but I used two Inquisitors in my army, how is it going to work in 8th? The detachment says they have to be from the same faction, and I assume Imperial is a faction. What are going to be the penalties of taking Coteaz and a generic Inquisitor?
2017/06/01 06:29:58
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
ross-128 wrote: The biggest hurt by far in my opinion is the loss of blob squads. We're going to have to buy a lot more officers and commissars, because what was once 1 unit is now 5. Even with commissars being changed into a bubble, it's hard to get 5 squads in range of a 6" bubble without some serious conga-lines.
With the new rules on blast templates, you don't need to make conga lines.
Here are 3 squads that can easily be placed within 6" of a commissar. You can fit one more behind the commissar. I would put a heavy weapons team behind the commissar as you might lose range quickly otherwise.
NH Gunsmith wrote: I was shocked when I totalled up the points costs for my army, in 7th it is around 2,250-2,300... now it isn't even 2,000 points. I have to find a way to add an additional 76 points if I want to get to 2k again... plasma pistols for everything haha. And I will be painting some of my Tallarn's shoulder pads white with a cross on them in each of my command squads just to spend points and take medics.
Kind of off topic, but I used two Inquisitors in my army, how is it going to work in 8th? The detachment says they have to be from the same faction, and I assume Imperial is a faction. What are going to be the penalties of taking Coteaz and a generic Inquisitor?
Each Faction will have specific Stragems you will be limited to the Imperial one.
ross-128 wrote: The biggest hurt by far in my opinion is the loss of blob squads. We're going to have to buy a lot more officers and commissars, because what was once 1 unit is now 5. Even with commissars being changed into a bubble, it's hard to get 5 squads in range of a 6" bubble without some serious conga-lines.
With the new rules on blast templates, you don't need to make conga lines.
Here are 3 squads that can easily be placed within 6" of a commissar. You can fit one more behind the commissar. I would put a heavy weapons team behind the commissar as you might lose range quickly otherwise.
With spaces between models maximised. Conga lines have other reasons than just avoiding templates.
Your going to want 6 " between the front unit and the charcter. Same with the flanking squads and the rear squad it will allow between 8" and 12 " between the units plunty of space.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/01 06:33:53
2017/06/01 06:52:21
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Also, would anybody be annoyed if I represented my Tallarn having Medi-Packs by painting a shoulder pad white with a red cross on it? There isn't much customization with the models (a slight downside of having some kick butt classic single pose models I guess).
2017/06/01 06:54:40
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
NH Gunsmith wrote: Also, would anybody be annoyed if I represented my Tallarn having Medi-Packs by painting a shoulder pad white with a red cross on it? There isn't much customization with the models (a slight downside of having some kick butt classic single pose models I guess).
I would say as long as it stands out sufficantly its fine but best to ask around your local shop to see what they think. Those are the people you need to get approval from.
2017/06/01 06:56:41
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
NH Gunsmith wrote: Also, would anybody be annoyed if I represented my Tallarn having Medi-Packs by painting a shoulder pad white with a red cross on it? There isn't much customization with the models (a slight downside of having some kick butt classic single pose models I guess).
I would say as long as it stands out sufficantly its fine but best to ask around your local shop to see what they think. Those are the people you need to get approval from.
Very true, everybody else's shoulder pads are going to be a camo green. The will be the only infantry models with white and red on them.
Edit. I will make sure to point them to my opponents and see what they think. I don't think it will be an issue though, saw a guy today playing with a unit that was just bases. And another guy using proxies.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/01 06:59:12
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
