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 Chris521 wrote:
which if I'm interpreting the rules correctly, gave the vanquisher cannon twin linked. I would imagine that if that rule remained, it would remain a re roll instead of firing two shots.

The co-axial stubber had sort of a "markerlight". You used the stubber shooting it before the main weapon; If the co-axial stubber hit, the main could reroll as if twinned.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Chris521 wrote:
But a bs3+ vanquisher cannon that re rolls 1 and does D6 mortal wounds could be pretty nice.

I really want the FW rules now...

I believe the commissar tank also had a sizable leadership bubble.

 Humble Guardsman wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:

Very true, everybody else's shoulder pads are going to be a camo green. The will be the only infantry models with white and red on them.

An absolute might insist you model on the medi-pack to truly represent WYSIWYG, but I can't imagine anyone actually having a problem with it.

I'm really digging the new medic rules, for a moment I was excited to field Command Squad's of just medics supporting my mass infantry. Then I could lay into my opponent and charge them with breaching the Geneva Conventions whenever they targeted them.

Yeah, I might end up making a few green stuff pouches/backpack to stick on the backs of my four medics, at least that way I could call that the "Medi-Pack". It would probably be a good preventative against "that guy", I didn't see anywhere that it says the model with it loses their lasgun though, so at least that makes it a bit easier. Might also green stuff a cross on each of their shoulder pads to hold people over until they are painted.

I couldn't believe how good they are though, them four medics can help replace Battleshock casualties.

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Yeah, I might end up making a few green stuff pouches/backpack to stick on the backs of my four medics, at least that way I could call that the "Medi-Pack". It would probably be a good preventative against "that guy", I didn't see anywhere that it says the model with it loses their lasgun though, so at least that makes it a bit easier. Might also green stuff a cross on each of their shoulder pads to hold people over until they are painted.

You would alter your models to encourage "that guy" to play against you? I would probably alter my models to not play against them. I mean, it's not like you are calling a plasma a melta. That is acceptable to moan about.

A bit of painting would be fine for most people.

 Trickstick wrote:

 NH Gunsmith wrote:
Yeah, I might end up making a few green stuff pouches/backpack to stick on the backs of my four medics, at least that way I could call that the "Medi-Pack". It would probably be a good preventative against "that guy", I didn't see anywhere that it says the model with it loses their lasgun though, so at least that makes it a bit easier. Might also green stuff a cross on each of their shoulder pads to hold people over until they are painted.

You would alter your models to encourage "that guy" to play against you? I would probably alter my models to not play against them. I mean, it's not like you are calling a plasma a melta. That is acceptable to moan about.

A bit of painting would be fine for most people.

Yeah, but if I ever play in any tournaments this edition it can't hurt to be safe.

Well, I am very disappointed with GW. Our tanks have been over nerfed yet again, our Veterans are now a useless and expensive Elites choice and our HWT cannot give any covering fire.
GG GW, well played. You actually had me excited there for a second.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, I am very disappointed with GW. Our tanks have been over nerfed yet again, our Veterans are now a useless and expensive Elites choice and our HWT cannot give any covering fire.
GG GW, well played. You actually had me excited there for a second.

And you've got a detachment entirely dedicated to elites (plus I see vets to be quite decent choices still) so that doesn't matter. And you can rack command points to boost tanks effectively quite a bit too. But yep, doom and gloom it is (plus don't lie, you've been like that since day one).

Lord Kragan wrote:
And you've got a detachment entirely dedicated to elites (plus I see vets to be quite decent choices still) so that doesn't matter

Actually it matters. DUCY?

Oh and check out genestealer cult leman russ vanquisher

Lord Kragan wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, I am very disappointed with GW. Our tanks have been over nerfed yet again, our Veterans are now a useless and expensive Elites choice and our HWT cannot give any covering fire.
GG GW, well played. You actually had me excited there for a second.

And you've got a detachment entirely dedicated to elites (plus I see vets to be quite decent choices still) so that doesn't matter. And you can rack command points to boost tanks effectively quite a bit too. But yep, doom and gloom it is (plus don't lie, you've been like that since day one).

Since Day 6 actually, when our 6th edition codex was released and pretty much nerfed our entire army, but yes I suppose that is exactly the same as Day 1.

My point is veterans should be Troops not Elites. Right now (and assuming that some other Elites units have been buffed) they have been thrust into an already well populated (although underpowered) section of the list, whereas our troops choices have now been reduced to a single choice: The platoon. We used to have Penal Troopers in here, and Veterans which together gave us three choices. We lost Penal Troopers and now Veterans have been moved to Elites for no good reason other than "GW thought it was a good idea".

 master of ordinance wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, I am very disappointed with GW. Our tanks have been over nerfed yet again, our Veterans are now a useless and expensive Elites choice and our HWT cannot give any covering fire.
GG GW, well played. You actually had me excited there for a second.

And you've got a detachment entirely dedicated to elites (plus I see vets to be quite decent choices still) so that doesn't matter. And you can rack command points to boost tanks effectively quite a bit too. But yep, doom and gloom it is (plus don't lie, you've been like that since day one).

Since Day 6 actually, when our 6th edition codex was released and pretty much nerfed our entire army, but yes I suppose that is exactly the same as Day 1.

My point is veterans should be Troops not Elites. Right now (and assuming that some other Elites units have been buffed) they have been thrust into an already well populated (although underpowered) section of the list, whereas our troops choices have now been reduced to a single choice: The platoon. We used to have Penal Troopers in here, and Veterans which together gave us three choices. We lost Penal Troopers and now Veterans have been moved to Elites for no good reason other than "GW thought it was a good idea".

And it being "well" populated doesn't matter. You can make an army of rough riders as the main line. You can make an all artillery army. You're just making a fallacy and claiming that your choices have been diminished. Sure, there's only regular guardsmen in troops, but who cares when you can bring the other stuff in a different cad without breaking a sweat?

 master of ordinance wrote:
Since Day 6 actually, when our 6th edition codex was released and pretty much nerfed our entire army, but yes I suppose that is exactly the same as Day 1.

My point is veterans should be Troops not Elites. Right now (and assuming that some other Elites units have been buffed) they have been thrust into an already well populated (although underpowered) section of the list, whereas our troops choices have now been reduced to a single choice: The platoon. We used to have Penal Troopers in here, and Veterans which together gave us three choices. We lost Penal Troopers and now Veterans have been moved to Elites for no good reason other than "GW thought it was a good idea".

Actually scions are troops as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Kragan wrote:
And it being "well" populated doesn't matter. You can make an army of rough riders as the main line. You can make an all artillery army. You're just making a fallacy and claiming that your choices have been diminished. Sure, there's only regular guardsmen in troops, but who cares when you can bring the other stuff in a different cad without breaking a sweat?

But if you have 2 identical units but one is troop and one is elite having it on troops is better. DUCY?

 master of ordinance wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, I am very disappointed with GW. Our tanks have been over nerfed yet again, our Veterans are now a useless and expensive Elites choice and our HWT cannot give any covering fire.
GG GW, well played. You actually had me excited there for a second.

And you've got a detachment entirely dedicated to elites (plus I see vets to be quite decent choices still) so that doesn't matter. And you can rack command points to boost tanks effectively quite a bit too. But yep, doom and gloom it is (plus don't lie, you've been like that since day one).

Since Day 6 actually, when our 6th edition codex was released and pretty much nerfed our entire army, but yes I suppose that is exactly the same as Day 1.

My point is veterans should be Troops not Elites. Right now (and assuming that some other Elites units have been buffed) they have been thrust into an already well populated (although underpowered) section of the list, whereas our troops choices have now been reduced to a single choice: The platoon. We used to have Penal Troopers in here, and Veterans which together gave us three choices. We lost Penal Troopers and now Veterans have been moved to Elites for no good reason other than "GW thought it was a good idea".

Uhhh... I got some bad news about the platoon buddy...

On the other hand, stormtroopers are troops now, and conscript squads can be taken individually, that's a thing.


In unrelated news, troops in and of itself really doesn't seem to be that big of a deal other than competition in slots since from what I understand claiming an objective goes off of how many models you have near it, so vets can still do the same job. It still sucks they've lost doctrines and the like but pretty much every army lost options that they're used to having in their codex.

This is basically the 3rd edition reboot all over again, of course everyone is missing options. We *should* see a lot of this stuff come back when we get our proper codex released. These books are meant to be placeholders (and more than likely, beta test) until we get proper codexes so honestly I expected us to be missing more than this.

 master of ordinance wrote:

My point is veterans should be Troops not Elites.

Why? Aren't Veteran soldiers the definition of elite? I'm bummed about GW taking away all the cool doctrines, maybe we shall see a return in the later codex. However, there's no punishment for Veterans being transferred to the elite slot. You can still field an entire army of IG with Elites, no problem.

Right now (and assuming that some other Elites units have been buffed) they have been thrust into an already well populated (although underpowered)

True, there is a lot of competition for it. But certainly not enough to be an issue for an army fielding 2 detachments of any sort.

section of the list, whereas our troops choices have now been reduced to a single choice: The platoon. We used to have Penal Troopers in here, and Veterans which together gave us three choices.

There is no functional difference between an Elite or a Troop when holding objectives. This isn't 6E where Troops trumped others on objectives. The only area where an all Vet IG army will suffer is on Command Points, and really that makes sense.

tneva82 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Since Day 6 actually, when our 6th edition codex was released and pretty much nerfed our entire army, but yes I suppose that is exactly the same as Day 1.

My point is veterans should be Troops not Elites. Right now (and assuming that some other Elites units have been buffed) they have been thrust into an already well populated (although underpowered) section of the list, whereas our troops choices have now been reduced to a single choice: The platoon. We used to have Penal Troopers in here, and Veterans which together gave us three choices. We lost Penal Troopers and now Veterans have been moved to Elites for no good reason other than "GW thought it was a good idea".

Actually scions are troops as well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lord Kragan wrote:
And it being "well" populated doesn't matter. You can make an army of rough riders as the main line. You can make an all artillery army. You're just making a fallacy and claiming that your choices have been diminished. Sure, there's only regular guardsmen in troops, but who cares when you can bring the other stuff in a different cad without breaking a sweat?

But if you have 2 identical units but one is troop and one is elite having it on troops is better. DUCY?

Yet they aren't identically. last time I checked you couldn't tote 3 special weapons with a guardsman squad, nor hit on 3s base.

Lord Kragan wrote:
Yet they aren't identically. last time I checked you couldn't tote 3 special weapons with a guardsman squad, nor hit on 3s base.

All the better then? Point generally being you BENEFIT from having unit as troop rather than elite. Ideally you want every unit as troop rather than say elite. Well okay IG might benefit from some cheap choices elsewhere but generally troop is better than elite.

In other words if veterans were moved to troop without any other changes they would be _better_ than now.

So point being it's not irrelevant that they are elite because there's detachment that allows taking elite as tax rather than troop as it would be even better if they were troop.

So real quick, not sure if it was mentioned or not...

But how about that Strength 16 Volcano Cannon on the Shadowsword?

Beter than s16 dam2d6 is niae one

 Kanluwen wrote:
So real quick, not sure if it was mentioned or not...

But how about that Strength 16 Volcano Cannon on the Shadowsword?

Looks really nice. +1 to hit and reroll wounds against TITANIC foes. I guess it really depends on how often you see those. If hordes become popular then this thing loses some of its appeal. Point thing at a knight or something though, and it should delete it with decent rolling. I would save some command points to reroll the number of shots though.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
So real quick, not sure if it was mentioned or not...

But how about that Strength 16 Volcano Cannon on the Shadowsword?

Looks really nice. +1 to hit and reroll wounds against TITANIC foes. I guess it really depends on how often you see those. If hordes become popular then this thing loses some of its appeal. Point thing at a knight or something though, and it should delete it with decent rolling. I would save some command points to reroll the number of shots though.

Wording on the Shadowsword Targeters makes it apply to the Adamantium Tracks in CC as well.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 Shadelkan wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
It's gone. Probably because GW doesn't sell vendeta model. FW meanwhile sells(well conversion kit) so it's 99% sure it comes on FW index end of june.

Then why are dakka flyrants still a thing? You need a FW upgrade kit for that as well.

No you don't? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Tyranid-Hive-Tyrant?_requestid=5676204

Errr yes you do https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-WW/Tyranid-Twin-linked-Devourers?_requestid=5691830

Twin linked devourers aren't in the Hive Tyrant box.

Lol, by that logic: Sergeants should only have las pistol and chainswords, Veterans shouldn't exist at all, shotguns shouldn't exist at all, etc.

I just realized all arc of sight is gone.

All vehicle weapons can now fire through the rear corner, for example.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I just realized all arc of sight is gone.

All vehicle weapons can now fire through the rear corner, for example.

Yes but vehicle rotation (aside from flyers) is infinite, so why wouldnt you turn your vehicle to shoot at your target and look cool in the process.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Well, I am very disappointed with GW. Our tanks have been over nerfed yet again, our Veterans are now a useless and expensive Elites choice and our HWT cannot give any covering fire.
GG GW, well played. You actually had me excited there for a second.

And you've got a detachment entirely dedicated to elites (plus I see vets to be quite decent choices still) so that doesn't matter. And you can rack command points to boost tanks effectively quite a bit too. But yep, doom and gloom it is (plus don't lie, you've been like that since day one).

Since Day 6 actually, when our 6th edition codex was released and pretty much nerfed our entire army, but yes I suppose that is exactly the same as Day 1.

My point is veterans should be Troops not Elites. Right now (and assuming that some other Elites units have been buffed) they have been thrust into an already well populated (although underpowered) section of the list, whereas our troops choices have now been reduced to a single choice: The platoon. We used to have Penal Troopers in here, and Veterans which together gave us three choices. We lost Penal Troopers and now Veterans have been moved to Elites for no good reason other than "GW thought it was a good idea".

Uhhh... I got some bad news about the platoon buddy...

On the other hand, stormtroopers are troops now, and conscript squads can be taken individually, that's a thing.

.

Waitwaitwait, so your are telling me that a Guardsman whom has been in three or more battles somehow merits a radical rise from a grunt to some kind of elite unit, but the Storm troopers, the elite shock troops of the Scholar Commissariat, the literal Commando's of the 40K universe whom are specially trained and equipped with above-standard grade equipment and are pretty much the definition of elite infantry are only Troops?
How does that make any sense?

The Platoon has gone has it? Waht about Heavy weapon Squads, Special Weapon Squads and Platoon Command Squads?

 portugus wrote:
Looked at the Genestealer cult vanquisher leman russ, its strength 9 in both it's unit entry and on the weapons page while ours is strength 8. Hoping these kinda things are ironed out before print of the real codex.

Jesus H Christ.

"b-b-but 8th is going to be perfect! y-you naysayers are just haters! nu-gw will pay attention to the rules!"

 master of ordinance wrote:

Waitwaitwait, so your are telling me that a Guardsman whom has been in three or more battles somehow merits a radical rise from a grunt to some kind of elite unit, but the Storm troopers, the elite shock troops of the Scholar Commissariat, the literal Commando's of the 40K universe whom are specially trained and equipped with above-standard grade equipment and are pretty much the definition of elite infantry are only Troops?
How does that make any sense?

It was probably done as a concession to Militarum Tempestus players, since their codex is now gone entirely, so I 'can' see their logic in it.

The Platoon has gone has it? Waht about Heavy weapon Squads, Special Weapon Squads and Platoon Command Squads?

Platoons are gone despite earlier saying they weren't.
HWS' are Heavy Support.
SWS' are Elites.
Platoon Commanders are Elites, whilst there's just a Company Command Squad now.

 Shadelkan wrote:

Spoiler:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

 Shadelkan wrote:

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
It's gone. Probably because GW doesn't sell vendeta model. FW meanwhile sells(well conversion kit) so it's 99% sure it comes on FW index end of june.

Then why are dakka flyrants still a thing? You need a FW upgrade kit for that as well.

No you don't? https://www.games-workshop.com/en-CA/Tyranid-Hive-Tyrant?_requestid=5676204

Errr yes you do https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-WW/Tyranid-Twin-linked-Devourers?_requestid=5691830

Twin linked devourers aren't in the Hive Tyrant box.

Lol, by that logic: Sergeants should only have las pistol and chainswords, Veterans shouldn't exist at all, shotguns shouldn't exist at all, etc.

I converted some leftover Lascannons from Guard HWTs into the guns for my Vendetta, back in the day. Magnetized them and everything.

I also converted some shotguns gor my Veterans just by cutting up a Lasgun carefully, didn't even have to add extra details, it just worked out.

I also had to convert all of my Rough Riders from a mix of old Empire, Bretonnian, and Imperial Guard bits, and they look pretty good next to my plastic converted Ogryns from Fantasy Ogres.

Under arc of sight not all weapons could be brought to bear at certain ranges due to weapon placement(and some t-l weapons where separated by the hull creating a host of problems).

Under the new rules, before I noticed the lack of arc, I thought target per weapon was awesome for those models.

Also, lack of arc mitigates flyer's limited range of motion. While you are forced to travel straight foreward and can only turn 90°; you can still shoot all your guns at a target back and to the left(which is realistically dynamic; a fighter-jet doesn't just fly towards a location, shoot, the fly somewhere else. It shoots as it flies)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Arbitrator: plations are not gone. They now net ys 3 cps per.

While you may want to cry about how the single slot got broken up between different battlefield roles; you may want to wipe the tears off your blouse, put on your big-boy pants and use your think-meat to see what we actually get.

Battalion detachment: commander as hq, 3 infantry squads as troops, hws as hs, sws as elites,add in a command squad as elites if you choose. Oh, and you can still take a blob of conscripts as troops.

I am going to say it again: each platoon is now +3 command points to our army.

[While you may want to cry about how the single slot got broken up between different battlefield roles; you may want to wipe the tears off your blouse, put on your big-boy pants and use your think-meat to see what we actually get.

I was staying facts. They're gone in the rules, breaking them up into Detachments same as everybody else is still removing them. Oh, and there's Kill Points and Battle Shock that will be effected by them not being blobed and those Commissars only have 6" to stretch their shooting arm.

I love you GW shills who are so sensitive you have to get passive aggressive at the slightest presumed slight against your precious game.

One major problem with the loss of platoons: there is still a kill point mission. With the addition of 1 model character "units" and multiple 10 man squads, that mission is going to be hell for IG.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
While you may want to cry about how the single slot got broken up between different battlefield roles; you may want to wipe the tears off your blouse, put on your big-boy pants and use your think-meat to see what we actually get.

 Arbitrator wrote:
I love you GW shills who are so sensitive you have to get passive aggressive at the slightest presumed slight against their precious game.

This rubbish is pointless. Discussing the rules is far more interesting that weird attacks against what you imagine the other person is thinking.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 portugus wrote:
Looked at the Genestealer cult vanquisher leman russ, its strength 9 in both it's unit entry and on the weapons page while ours is strength 8. Hoping these kinda things are ironed out before print of the real codex.

Jesus H Christ.

"b-b-but 8th is going to be perfect! y-you naysayers are just haters! nu-gw will pay attention to the rules!"

 master of ordinance wrote:

Waitwaitwait, so your are telling me that a Guardsman whom has been in three or more battles somehow merits a radical rise from a grunt to some kind of elite unit, but the Storm troopers, the elite shock troops of the Scholar Commissariat, the literal Commando's of the 40K universe whom are specially trained and equipped with above-standard grade equipment and are pretty much the definition of elite infantry are only Troops?
How does that make any sense?

It was probably done as a concession to Militarum Tempestus players, since their codex is now gone entirely, so I 'can' see their logic in it.

The Platoon has gone has it? Waht about Heavy weapon Squads, Special Weapon Squads and Platoon Command Squads?

Platoons are gone despite earlier saying they weren't.
HWS' are Heavy Support.
SWS' are Elites.
Platoon Commanders are Elites, whilst there's just a Company Command Squad now.

So in other words, the only thing left in the Troops slots are Infantry Squads and Storm Troopers? Everything else has been forced into already densely populated and in some cases (Heavy Support) extremely competitive slots that they (in all honesty) have no right being anywhere near?
Wonderful GW, you just managed to kill the Guard.

In my book, breaking the platoons into MSUs does count as removing them.

The loss of platoons is a two-sided coin in this edition though, due to the ability to take multiple detachments and the fact that doing so gives you command points. Yes, we can't cram 200 models into a single slot anymore. Yes, if we want a 50-man blob it'll have to be BS2 with no specials or heavies.

But we can fill up detachments and rack up command points more easily than any other army, and that's a pretty good consolation prize. Also, we can take conscripts with no platoon tax now. As impractical as it might be, in a 2000 point game we can field 500 conscripts and still have enough points for enough Officers and Commissars to keep them in line. That's something I'd like to see at least once for sheer entertainment value.

Would also make an amusing benchmark for more practical lists. "But can it beat 500 Conscripts?"

Edit:
I do think Veterans should be moved to troops and Platoon commanders should be HQ though. Those slots are just under-populated, moving those over would make the organization chart a little less lop-sided and being able to fill an HQ slot for 20 points would be nice.

I'm putting that under "quality of life request" rather than "dead on arrival" though.