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Don't forget that you can fit 15 sentinels in a brigade if you want to. It would be about 900 points but could easily work in a 2k list. I guess that not many people would be expecting it either.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Wait, why do genestealer cultists get better smoke launchers than us? Their entry says that the enemy 'must subtract 1 from any hit rolls that target it' whilst they're deployed. No distinction is made between ranged and melee attacks. What the hell?

Is this a typo? Which one is the right one?

This plus the Vanquisher. I think there is a Genestealer infiltration within the Departmento Munitorum. They are diverting the best equipment to Genestealer Cults!

What's this with the Vanquisher and GS?

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
What's this with the Vanquisher and GS?

Their Vank has a higher strength for some reason.

I'm disappointed that we've already got these glaring mistakes. This is sloppy work Gee Dubya.

xmbk wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:
I read that, but I must not have actually processed it. That's a really weird way to determine first turn.

Why? "Realism"-wise, certainly makes sense that bigger forces are more unwieldy. Balance-wise, morale penalizes big units for every scenario except No Mercy.

It also basically means that Guard armies will almost never go first.

I have to say that I am very dissapointed with the Deathstrike. "3D6 mortal wounds plus D3 to any unit within 6" of the target" is not a gargantuan colossal missile of rape and death the size of a main battle tank. And as the Deathstrike is a oneshot piece, it basically means that you will only ever bring them for sniping enemy bigshiny units. However the fact that you will usually not be going first as opposed to the smaller, more elite, forces means that more often than not any such 'power units' that you possess will be sniped on the first turn, leaving you with overpriced and under gunned LRBT's and Vanquishers to try and deal with the enemies LoW.

I understand the angst that comes with a new edition/codex, and there are always a few who get carried away. But there's a lot of good stuff in this edition, it will just taking adapting. The true firepower of guard may be all the flamers. Hellhounds are great for the points, and flamer Chimeras will serve multiple roles. They will also be useful for all the close quarter fighting that will take place.

The fact is that units are more fragile, relatively. Anything you own will die if the enemy wants it to. But the converse is also true. So just be better at target priorities - should be easy for Guardsmen.

Remember, mortal wounds are completely un-savable

So 3d6 4+ to hit unsaveable auto wounds is around 4.5 wounds plus the d3 4+ to hit mortal wounds on all units within 6".

There is also every chance in the world that you can score 0 hits on the target unit and then 3 mortal wounds to every other unit within range; which is weirdly funny.

 master of ordinance wrote:
It also basically means that Guard armies will almost never go first.

That is a very compelling reason to go mech/ABG. Hell, I may do something similar. 2 Scions, 2 Conscripts and 2 Armoured Fist in Chimeras. Stick all of your characters in the Chimeras first turn, to save deployment choices. Use Rough riders and Ratlings, other units which screw with deployment. I mean, you will still go second against the really small armies but have a chance against medium size ones.

Just played a 1500pt test game with my Cadians against my friends Tau. It was a fun game. But man, his Tau were TOUGH. Deep striking Scions were CLUTCH. Mortar heavy weapons squads were so good. I wish I had brought a second squad of them. I used my ratlings infiltration to deny him good deep striking locations on my flank. I spaced out everything fairly well so his 2 squads of suits didn't get a jump on anybody and couldn't get within fusion blaster range of my tanks. Although Hammerheads are nuts in this edition, especially with his tank commander. They were seriously brutal. My 3 LRs didn't stand a chance. Even with Pask leading them. I think with Pask and a tank commander battle buddy team, they would have been more efficient. But I wanted to try out too many things. If you guys have any questions, I could go into more depth.

Colonel Cross wrote:
Just played a 1500pt test game with my Cadians against my friends Tau. It was a fun game. But man, his Tau were TOUGH. Deep striking Scions were CLUTCH. Mortar heavy weapons squads were so good. I wish I had brought a second squad of them. I used my ratlings infiltration to deny him good deep striking locations on my flank. I spaced out everything fairly well so his 2 squads of suits didn't get a jump on anybody and couldn't get within fusion blaster range of my tanks. Although Hammerheads are nuts in this edition, especially with his tank commander. They were seriously brutal. My 3 LRs didn't stand a chance. Even with Pask leading them. I think with Pask and a tank commander battle buddy team, they would have been more efficient. But I wanted to try out too many things. If you guys have any questions, I could go into more depth.

Yes please!

Colonel Cross wrote:
Just played a 1500pt test game with my Cadians against my friends Tau. It was a fun game. But man, his Tau were TOUGH. Deep striking Scions were CLUTCH. Mortar heavy weapons squads were so good. I wish I had brought a second squad of them. I used my ratlings infiltration to deny him good deep striking locations on my flank. I spaced out everything fairly well so his 2 squads of suits didn't get a jump on anybody and couldn't get within fusion blaster range of my tanks. Although Hammerheads are nuts in this edition, especially with his tank commander. They were seriously brutal. My 3 LRs didn't stand a chance. Even with Pask leading them. I think with Pask and a tank commander battle buddy team, they would have been more efficient. But I wanted to try out too many things. If you guys have any questions, I could go into more depth.

What sort of problems did the Hammerheads cause? What are their stats?

Did he have riptides, and what did they do? Were they a threat?

Anything I should watch out for specifically?

What does CLUTCH mean exactly?

Did your ratlings manage to snipe any characters dead?

Haha OK. Well I had 2x company commanders, 1x Pask w/battle cannon, las cannon, and plasma cannons, 3x Commissars, 8x squads of infantry, 2x 5 man suicide Scions with plasma guns, 1x Taurox, 1x Chimera, 10x ratlings, mortar heavy weapon squad, and 2 LRBTs with heavy bolters for days.

My buddy used an ethereal, fireblade, 10 pathfinders, 3 squads of fire warriors, 2x 3 man teams of crisis suits, a crisis suit commander, 20x kroot, and Longstrike with hammerhead buddy.

If he was using the rules correctly, Longstrike was helping his buddy hit easier. Hammerheads had more wounds than our tanks and the Railgun is probably the best anti tank gun in the game. That thing was S10 and AP -4. I think it did D6 damage as well. They were brutal. Watch out for rail rifles, those things were nasty! Tanks need to watch out for them. His drones savior protocol is OP, I'd say. So good. But then again, we're still not sure if we're using it right. His fireblade and various drone buffs made his gunline nearly impenetrable. So I just stayed out of range or LoS and went for OBJs. I made him come after me. But once his suits and kroot were gone there was nothing he could do in our jam packed city map. I just had too much stuff for him to kill. Meanwhile every turn mortars were dropping and Las guns were widdling him down. It was super close. It was a blood bath. I only had 1 guardsmen with a commissar and platoon commander on 1 OBJ, 6 guardsmen on another, and mortars and my company commander on a 3rd OBJ. We each had slay the warlord. He had first blood (Tau with first turn, too easy). I think if the game went to turn 6 it would only have been worse for him.

Things I liked:
Pasks plasma cannons dished out more constant fire power than my battle cannons.
Mortars! They are solid, especially with rerolling 1s to hit. And at only 27 pts, they are a steal. I used them on pathfinders, crisis suits to decent effect and absolutely mulched his kroot. They were definitely my MVP. Can you split fire them? That could be good.
Commissars were awesome. They kept my mobile assault guard squads on the advance to get flamers in range and charge objectives.
Scions coming in within rapid fire range exactly where I wanted them was brutal. They even survived a ton of return fire and got to fight a second round.
Ratlings were actually decent until they met burst cannons. But they attracted way more fire power than I anticipated. They were only 50pts, so I consider that a win. He had to waste markerlights on them because their cover save was keeping them alive so well.
Fix Bayonets is crazy legit. You just have to plan out your assaults. A squad of 6 guardsmen took out 12 kroot thanks to it. (The commissar helped though).

Things I didn't like:
LRBTs. Seriously, they killed a drone and maybe a crisis suit and barely scratched a hammerhead. As far as offense, rely on other units to do damage. They were massive fire magnets though and allowed me to psychologically control my opponent, at least until he realized his 2 hammerheads far outclassed them and that my tanks couldn't hit crap. A LRBT with a battle cannon and 3 heavy bolters barely managed to take out an Ethereal out in the open. That's awful.

Things I learned:
More Scions! Even their hotshot lasguns worked on tanks! I wanted to try a 10 man unit with rapid fire hotshots, a sergeant with plasma pistol, and 2 plasma guns to see what they could do against a tank.
More mortar teams!
Spread out your anchor units to prevent anyone from entering your edge. That 9" limit is our Savior since we get so many units to spread out.
Don't forget to fire your characters weapons. I gave my commissars bolt guns and plasma pistols and kept forgetting they were there.
Orders are still pretty solid for mass lasgun fire. I think 2 squads did as much damage to crisis suits at 24" as the missile launchers and plasma guns did in those same units.
Tank commander orders are still pretty lackluster. But I think with 2 tank commanders or pask ordering each other to RE roll 1s would make them way better. Sad it practically requires that though with our shoddy BS on the regular tanks.

I think I'll try more Scions, a Basilisk, more mortars, and some Ogryn/Bullgryn with a priest next. Issue Fix Bayonets to them via platoon commander. I also want to try a Valkyrie out. Anybody try any of these yet?

So the IG can actually go toe to toe with the tau now? This all sounds wonderful, except for the leman russes. I'm saddened that they're still struggling.

Colonel Cross wrote:
...1x Pask w/battle cannon, las cannon, and plasma cannons...

Were you just using standard plasma settings? I would be too afraid to overcharge Pask, as he can't receive orders.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
So the IG can actually go toe to toe with the tau now? This all sounds wonderful, except for the leman russes. I'm saddened that they're still struggling.

I wouldn't say we could go toe to toe. I'd say we can use our mass to dictate their options to allow us to take out their objective grabbing units. Basically he could point and click and that unit goes bye bye unless they're in cover.

Colonel Cross wrote:
I wouldn't say we could go toe to toe. I'd say we can use our mass to dictate their options to allow us to take out their objective grabbing units. Basically he could point and click and that unit goes bye bye unless they're in cover.

I guess what I mean is, we actually stand a chance of winning now?

 Trickstick wrote:

Colonel Cross wrote:
...1x Pask w/battle cannon, las cannon, and plasma cannons...

Were you just using standard plasma settings? I would be too afraid to overcharge Pask, as he can't receive orders.

I just used the regular attack profile. I'd only over charge of he was close to death.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:
Thought on platoon commanders. With lots of people taking snipers to deal with buff characters, is it worth taking two platoon commanders instead of one company commander on occasion? You're paying 33% more for a 50% increase in durability (6 wounds vs 4). Two models vs one also means you can spread your orders around a bit easier if you don't want to invest in a vox network.

Obviously doesn't fill HQ requirement, but thems the brakes.

I think it is. What's the maximum amount of hq choices you can have?

Also, I just checked out the rules for smoke launchers...they go from shooting phase to shooting phase. Does the reduced to hit rule affect cc attacks as well? If so, those alpha striking scout sentinels suddenly look even better!

In matched play 1-2k list max is 15 either by 3 brigades or substituting some to supreme command detachment.

Of course platoon commander is elite so that's actually more interesting for platoon commanders. Max there is 24(3 brigades) or using vanguard you can replace brigade for one for 6 rather than 8.

Hey, I tabled a Tau player in 7E a few days ago, just mortar them to death. Works well.

Oh yeah, I forgot that platoon commanders are elites. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

And I'm so happy mortars are actually good now. They're cool weapons and it's great to be able to take them with realistic expectations.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Oh yeah, I forgot that platoon commanders are elites. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Def not optimal slot for IG from terms of efficiency.

 Future War Cultist wrote:

Colonel Cross wrote:
I wouldn't say we could go toe to toe. I'd say we can use our mass to dictate their options to allow us to take out their objective grabbing units. Basically he could point and click and that unit goes bye bye unless they're in cover.

I guess what I mean is, we actually stand a chance of winning now?

By the sounds of it

I'd say so. Although my buddy and I are learning 8th so as we test more games I'll know more. Battle suits are tough nuts to crack now. T5 with 3W and Savior protocol is hard to take down.

That's something like that they can allocate wounds to nearby drones or something isn't it? Yeah all that makes them tough.

Are ogyrns and bulgyrns any good now?

tneva82 wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Oh yeah, I forgot that platoon commanders are elites. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Def not optimal slot for IG from terms of efficiency.

It's not like we're restricted to only 3 Elites tho like the dim and distant past. Now slot management for matched play is a function of managing 3 detachments and the number of CP's desired. It's not like you can realistically run out of slots outside of a very extreme build.

I'm being nit picky but since they're commanders I feel like they should be in the HQ section.

FunJohn wrote:
What does CLUTCH mean exactly?

Well, I would assume it means Vin Diesel was leading them.

They should be but aren't really, still better units to take in mass than the command, unless you are going for the suicide melta/ flamer option on them. Scions really take the cake for the better troop options along with mass conscripts.

Tanks, capped at 10 guard regulars (Marines can have more than us now XD), Vet Guard, Chimera(?), and PCS don't seem to have the best place as they once did, if any at all. With some armies, expect Turn 1 melee, which will cut down 10 mans before you could say "By the Emperor".

Hate to point it out, and mistakes are natural when everyone is still learning, but I don't think Scions can rapid-fire after Deep striking. You have to deploy them more than 9" away, and I believe Scions hot-shot lasguns are 18" with a 9" rapid fire range.

Which is why I'll be swapping Scion numbers for Hot-Shot Volley Guns.

All in all though a great summary, my mate collects Tau and Nids so I'm paying keen attention to the lesson you've give.