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jaxor1983 wrote:
So, no matter the points, what is the best turret against the most targets?

Here is a maths article about it.

Long story short, probably the punisher if you want to kill T4. For big targets (t5+, multiwound) demolisher is actually pretty good. If you get a unit of 5+ multiwound models, with T5+, demolisher is excellent.

Depends what you want really. No good saying punisher is best if the rest of your army is conscripts. I guess an overcharging executioner is decent over all targets, but it could easily kill itself.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:I've run a hundred thousand trials Battle Cannon attacks against common targets, and the long and short of it is not to expect much. It's basically powerless against infantry units, and manages to barely exceed it's 7e numbers against big targets. Unfortunately, since monsters have more wounds now, that's also a net decrease in performance.

Leeman Russes can tie things up in close combat now.

So there's that.

Yeah, there's that. [sarcasm]Woo![/sarcasm]

It's not like Conscripts are a better and cheaper tarpit.

You can get 53 conscripts for the price of a Leman Russ with punisher and hull HB.

Vs S4 WS 3+ AP 0 Damage 1 attacks (basic ork boyz), conscripts will eat about 180 attacks before dying. A Leman Russ will tank 324 attacks before getting wrecked.

Vs S7 WS 3+ AP -1 Damage 2 attacks (nobz with big choppas), conscripts will eat 115 attacks before finally being wiped. A Leman Russ will only take 54 before becoming scrap.

So against non-specialized troops, the Leman Russ is a more efficient tarpit, but against most of the scary things you would like to be tarpitting, conscripts are about twice as efficient.

***Note: Conscripts can lose wounds to morale (but hopefully only one each turn due to some encouragement from a commissar) so fewer attacks than calculated may be necessary to remove them. Also note that conscripts are so much better at attacking in melee than Leman Russes against most targets that it's not even funny.



Okay, it is a little funny...

I almost think that it counts as them tarpitting you if your Russ is locked up, you just lose all damage potential from a reasonably expensive model. I would probably retreat it and fire something at the orks, or charge something else in.

 Trickstick wrote:
I almost think that it counts as them tarpitting you if your Russ is locked up, you just lose all damage potential from a reasonably expensive model. I would probably retreat it and fire something at the orks, or charge something else in.

As always it depends on the target. Firing your LR weapons into one 30 boyz unit then charging into another fresh one doesn't seem like a bad idea.

MaxT wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Oh yeah, I forgot that platoon commanders are elites. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Def not optimal slot for IG from terms of efficiency.

It's not like we're restricted to only 3 Elites tho like the dim and distant past. Now slot management for matched play is a function of managing 3 detachments and the number of CP's desired. It's not like you can realistically run out of slots outside of a very extreme build.

Distant past being 6th ed or earier. But generally HQ and troops being the ones you want spam. Only for sake of brigade you want cheap spammable elite&FA&HS. For other cases anything other than HQ or troop is disadvantage for the unit.

That math article really shows how hard the Exterminator got nerfed. We can also take its numbers and double them to see how good it *could* have been.

I really hope that one of the first updates/balance tweaks they do is "Whoops, we totally forgot the Exterminator was Heavy 4 Twin-Linked. It's Heavy 8 now."

It also confirms some things I expected: the battle cannon is a mediocre all-rounder, the Demolisher can get by on sheer virtue of being S10 against big targets, the Punisher is the best all-rounder, and the Manticore is pretty amazing.

jaxor1983 wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:I've run a hundred thousand trials Battle Cannon attacks against common targets, and the long and short of it is not to expect much. It's basically powerless against infantry units, and manages to barely exceed it's 7e numbers against big targets. Unfortunately, since monsters have more wounds now, that's also a net decrease in performance.

Leeman Russes can tie things up in close combat now.

So there's that.

Yeah, there's that. [sarcasm]Woo![/sarcasm]

It's not like Conscripts are a better and cheaper tarpit.

So, no matter the points, what is the best turret against the most targets?

I'm not a fan of using the Average Wound Count. It can be misleading.

This chart shows the likelyhood of getting a given number of wounds against a T7 Sv3+ target. 2500 trials. It's worth mention that, while the Demolisher Cannon targeting units of 5+ models is included, it's unlikely T7 models with a bunch of wounds will be coming in large units.


This chart shows the likelyhood of inflicting at least a given number of wounds against a T7 Sv3+ target. 2500 trials.


This chart shows the number of individual models dealt wounds to, still T7 Sv3+.


This chart shows the number of trials that dealt wounds to at least X individual models, still T7 Sv3+.



Marines:






So here's the long and short of it:
Against infantry, the Punisher is really the only option.

Against big things, you've got your eye equally on the Annihilator, Demolisher, and, to a lesser extent, the Vanquisher.


Overall, performance in general is pretty uninspiring.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:


You can get 53 conscripts for the price of a Leman Russ with punisher and hull HB.

Vs S4 WS 3+ AP 0 Damage 1 attacks (basic ork boyz), conscripts will eat about 180 attacks before dying. A Leman Russ will tank 324 attacks before getting wrecked.

Vs S7 WS 3+ AP -1 Damage 2 attacks (nobz with big choppas), conscripts will eat 115 attacks before finally being wiped. A Leman Russ will only take 54 before becoming scrap.

So against non-specialized troops, the Leman Russ is a more efficient tarpit, but against most of the scary things you would like to be tarpitting, conscripts are about twice as efficient.

***Note: Conscripts can lose wounds to morale (but hopefully only one each turn due to some encouragement from a commissar) so fewer attacks than calculated may be necessary to remove them. Also note that conscripts are so much better at attacking in melee than Leman Russes against most targets that it's not even funny.

Okay, it is a little funny...

It's also worth mention that the 180 average number of attacks to clear the conscript blob is almost more attacks than a squad of ork can get for the game. Once you reach a certain survivability threshold, there's not much point in being more survivable.

 Humble Guardsman wrote:

 Formerly Wu wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
I am, in fact, rather surprised that there even are 2 different commanders.

I would also have found this to be acceptable. In fact, I think this is probably how I'm going to have to fluff it until they rearrange the command structure: all commanders use the company commander statline, whatever their rank.

Which is not at all unreasonable. It makes no real sense for a Colonel to always be a better fighter than a plucky Lieutenant, unless we are talking about a grizzled veteran regiment.

Remember, this is the Imperium, where bayonet charges agaisnt horrific super-science weapons of destruction is not that far down on a list of things to try. In the Guard, Company Commander is still a pretty front-line unit. It's possible that when a regiment was formed, not all company commanders were hardcases, but by about 48 hours of light combat (40k light), all the mid-level officers that weren't well above average are just killed off. Those slots get rapidly filled by badasses who don't die all that often, which may be the most important skill of a Company Commander in the imperium. Regimental command can't waste all it's time learning new names as attrition wears away it's command structure.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

It's also worth mention that the 180 average number of attacks to clear the conscript blob is almost more attacks than a squad of ork can get for the game. Once you reach a certain survivability threshold, there's not much point in being more survivable.

A squad of 30 boys have 4 attacks each (2 base +1 for choppa +1 for green tide), and so put out 120 attacks in close combat. Even assuming some casualties are taken beforehand, if they make it into combat while still above 20, they will take out a conscript blob in two rounds of combat. So by their next turn, they will have probably finished up the last of the conscripts and be ready to move on to another target.

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

It's also worth mention that the 180 average number of attacks to clear the conscript blob is almost more attacks than a squad of ork can get for the game. Once you reach a certain survivability threshold, there's not much point in being more survivable.

A squad of 30 boys have 4 attacks each (2 base +1 for choppa +1 for green tide), and so put out 120 attacks in close combat. Even assuming some casualties are taken beforehand, if they make it into combat while still above 20, they will take out a conscript blob in two rounds of combat. So by their next turn, they will have probably finished up the last of the conscripts and be ready to move on to another target.

Oh, wow, that's more than I was expecting.

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:I've run a hundred thousand trials Battle Cannon attacks against common targets, and the long and short of it is not to expect much. It's basically powerless against infantry units, and manages to barely exceed it's 7e numbers against big targets. Unfortunately, since monsters have more wounds now, that's also a net decrease in performance.

Leeman Russes can tie things up in close combat now.

So there's that.

Yeah, there's that. [sarcasm]Woo![/sarcasm]

It's not like Conscripts are a better and cheaper tarpit.

You can get 53 conscripts for the price of a Leman Russ with punisher and hull HB.

Vs S4 WS 3+ AP 0 Damage 1 attacks (basic ork boyz), conscripts will eat about 180 attacks before dying. A Leman Russ will tank 324 attacks before getting wrecked.

Vs S7 WS 3+ AP -1 Damage 2 attacks (nobz with big choppas), conscripts will eat 115 attacks before finally being wiped. A Leman Russ will only take 54 before becoming scrap.

So against non-specialized troops, the Leman Russ is a more efficient tarpit, but against most of the scary things you would like to be tarpitting, conscripts are about twice as efficient.

***Note: Conscripts can lose wounds to morale (but hopefully only one each turn due to some encouragement from a commissar) so fewer attacks than calculated may be necessary to remove them. Also note that conscripts are so much better at attacking in melee than Leman Russes against most targets that it's not even funny.



Okay, it is a little funny...

Also keep in mind that with orders conscripts can disengage, use "Get Back in the Fight" and still fire that turn. Leman Russes don't have that kind of flexibility.

Conscripts are pretty much our premier screening unit, given that in your turn they're either already dead or can disengage and still fire as normal. Either way they're so cheap that it doesn't really matter.

 SuspiciousSucculent wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

It's also worth mention that the 180 average number of attacks to clear the conscript blob is almost more attacks than a squad of ork can get for the game. Once you reach a certain survivability threshold, there's not much point in being more survivable.

A squad of 30 boys have 4 attacks each (2 base +1 for choppa +1 for green tide), and so put out 120 attacks in close combat. Even assuming some casualties are taken beforehand, if they make it into combat while still above 20, they will take out a conscript blob in two rounds of combat. So by their next turn, they will have probably finished up the last of the conscripts and be ready to move on to another target.

And this is why conscripts are not the be all and end all some seem to be making them out to be. With how strong assault is now, unsupported conscripts, even en mass, are going to be swept away. Imagine the destruction if the Commissar is killed (not hard to do). The vehicles will have to protect the infantry I say. Heavy Flamers all day.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

Also keep in mind that with orders conscripts can disengage, use "Get Back in the Fight" and still fire that turn. Leman Russes don't have that kind of flexibility.

Conscripts are pretty much our premier screening unit, given that in your turn they're either already dead or can disengage and still fire as normal. Either way they're so cheap that it doesn't really matter.

I think Ratlings may actually be better, considering how their special deployment allows them to extend the "no deepstrike zone" well beyond your own deployment. Couple this with the fact that they can fall back after over watch (totally amazing) and I think you have a very good screening/skirmishing unit.

Flameo man, flameo.

What's everyone thinking about our Astropath, Primaris, or Wyrdvane options? I'm thinking the mortal wounds could be useful against vehicles and tougher models that get close ie: Riptides and such.

Colonel Cross wrote:
What's everyone thinking about our Astropath, Primaris, or Wyrdvane options? I'm thinking the mortal wounds could be useful against vehicles and tougher models that get close ie: Riptides and such.

I like the Primaris. He is the best caster out of the lot of them, with decent powers. As he can choose his power, he can tailor which one he takes against the opponent. Enemy vulnerable to moral? Terrifying Visions. Durable melee? Take the Gaze of the Emperor, which can punish grouped up enemies with mortal wounds. Against shooting armies, take Psychic Barrier. The Primaris is also immune to perils if near a Commissar. Well, I say immune, at least he won't hurt anybody else...

I don't get Wyrdvanes. I guess they could be good but I don't see it.

The Astropath is a cheap unit you buy for removing cover saves. His powers only work on a 5+, so they are really just a bonus. Still, he is only 15 points if you take a laspistol. Pretty cheap.

Where can I find these pyskers? The link I have is mostly regular IG and Admech

 Future War Cultist wrote:
Where can I find these pyskers? The link I have is mostly regular IG and Admech

The Astra Telepathica section is one of the small ones near the back of the book, with Assassins and stuff.

Colonel Cross wrote:
What's everyone thinking about our Astropath, Primaris, or Wyrdvane options? I'm thinking the mortal wounds could be useful against vehicles and tougher models that get close ie: Riptides and such.

Well first of all I'm not that fuzzed about the powers they bring:

'Terrifying Vision' lowers the LD of a unit by 2. I still find leadership modifiers/Battleshock not that impactful until characters that buff their surrounding troops are sniped. Could work well if you have your own snipers though.

'Gaze of the Emperor' is hilariously the only ability in the game (that I know of) that still forces an enemy to spread his models out, 7th ed style. However, since both the range of the beam (2D6, average of 7"...) and the wound chance (4+) is random, it's still kinda meh unless there is a massive blob of Boyz/Gaunts in your grill. Or maybe something smaller but bigger, like deep-struck Terminators since you do Mortal Wounds.

'Psychic Barrier' Gives ONE unit +1 to their save. This is kind of the problem with single unit buffs and the IG; our units simply aren't worth it. Unless it is a decked out squad of Veterans/Scion, A fully upgraded Russ (preferably Pask) or a Superheavy, it doesn't mean all that much. Remember that squadrons of vehicles will still count as only a single model now.
And even then, I'd rather have an offensive buff than a defensive one. Give me more accurate shooting, I don't care if my men die.


Now onto the Psykers themselves:

Primaris Psyker:
40 points (28 for base model, 12 for the Force Staff which cannot be changed)
While way better in melee than the other two options, he is still sub-optimal for the job. You want a melee character, look to the Lord Commissar.
Speaking of Commissars, the Primaris has one boon over the others: if he dies from Perils within 6" of any Commissar, he is simply executed and doesn't explode, doing D3 mortal wounds to nearby guardsmen/characters.
But then again, if you keep your characters out of his explosion range, all you will lose is probably 4 guardsmen. No big deal.

Wyrdvane Psykers:
24 points for a minimum squad of 3 models, 8 points per model. Maximum of 9 in one squad.
These guys really do not seem worth it. This is primarily due to their 'Choir of Minds' ability.
The Choir of Minds means that they can only manifest power AND deny enemy powers on 1D6, but add +1 to the result for 3 or more models in the squad and +2 for 6 or more models.
Ok so.... for 48 points, I can manifest or deny one power on 1D6+2? And as soon as one model dies it goes down to 1D6+1? No thanks....
The only boon I can think of is that you can spread the models out, giving you a larger area from which you can manifest/deny powers. But again, good luck doing that with 1D6 + 1-2.

Psyker:
15 points. You can pay 6 more points to give him a staff, but at WS 5+, please don't.
T3, 6+ save and 3 wounds do make him fairly fragile, but he is a character so he should be somewhat save.
Now he comes with two abilities; Astral Divination and Telepathic Assault.
Telepathic Assault is unfortunately a negative ability; it let's him manifest Smite only on 1D6 instead of 2D6. Less chance for Perils I suppose...
However, this is ONLY for Smite, not for any other powers or for denying. Making it nowhere near as bad as the Wyrdvane's have.

Now here comes the good stuff:
Astral Divination let's you select one enemy unit at 18" from the Psyker at the start of the shooting phase. This unit will no longer get any bonuses to it's save from cover, when being shot by any IG unit within 6" of the Psyker.
Aaah, so this is where 'Fire on my Target' went! With cover now being beneficial to practically every unit in the game, this will really increase your firepower to units in cover. I'm sure some of you have heard of Scouts with Camo-cloaks now having a 2+ save in cover? Nah, not happenin' when my Psyker's about mate
The only downside is it's relatively short range, meaning that you will most likely use it when your Psyker is foot-slogging next to your Conscript/Guardsmen line and you want to shoot at a unit in cover.
Or you can drive shooty vehicle close to your Psyker and let it benefit from 'ignores cover'.
I'm sure there are loads more applications for it!


In short, only the Psyker seems worth it to me. Extremely cheap for a deny the witch-bubble, throw some spells here and there (though likely not Smite) and really help with units in cover.

Ey guys! Whats your oppinion in the bassilisk? I'm thinkering the idea of adding one as range support for my Genestealers, and I love the model, but I'm the worst at "mathhammering" how good a unit is

Wyrdvanes would have been much better if you also got a bonus for having nearby psykers. So your Primaris, or another squad of Wyrdvanes, could support each other.

As is, they're barely capable of casting Smite, much less doing much denying.

 Galas wrote:
Ey guys! Whats your oppinion in the bassilisk? I'm thinkering the idea of adding one as range support for my Genestealers, and I love the model, but I'm the worst at "mathhammering" how good a unit is

Spoiler:

If they are "good enough" you'll make a happy Bassilisk!

The Basilisk is good for consistently putting wounds on large targets. Its 2d6 drop low mechanic means it'll be putting out 3 or more "shots" about 90% of the time, and will almost never get a 1. Which means you're pretty much always getting at least one hit. At 108 points with the heavy bolter, it's affordable for what it does. Use it to punch holes in things that are more expensive than it. If you're going to have it out where it can use its heavy bolter, you can also stick a heavy stubber on there for 4 points.

The Manticore is better per model because it rolls a full 2d6, which gives you a minimum of 2 and an average of 7. Sure, it's empty on the fifth turn, but by then the game is basically over. It's 133 points with its heavy bolter and can't form squadrons though, so in a low-points game you might find the Basilisk easier to afford, and in a high-points game you may find that a squadron of three Basilisks makes better use of a slot. It has the same job as the Basilisk: put holes in things that are more expensive than it.

Doctoralex wrote:
However, this is ONLY for Smite, not for any other powers or for denying. Making it nowhere near as bad as the Wyrdvane's have.

Wow, I missed this. Astropaths are actually decent for 15 points then.

Thanks Ross! The Manticore is a cool model too... but yeah. As my ally Imperial Guard Detachment is small, the capability of a basilisk to put more in a slot is a big deal to me!

Basilisks are not bad, but manticores are just flat out better (for as long as they have ammo).

Question,

Can Pask give himself an order?

dahnarius wrote:
Question,

Can Pask give himself an order?

As I understand it, no.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

dahnarius wrote:
Question,

Can Pask give himself an order?

As I understand it, no.

Hmm. The rules say ( for a normal tank commander) that they can not give orders to a character. But Pask can. So Pask can give orders to other tank commanders. But not to himself.

dahnarius wrote:
Question,

Can Pask give himself an order?

No:

"...Pask can issue orders to other Cadian Leman Russ Characters."

Important word is other, which would not include himself. He can only order normal Russes and Tank Commanders.

Edit: Arg, I've confused myself by investigating it now. Pask doesn't actually have the restriction that stops Tank Commanders from giving orders to characters. I'm going to kick this over to YMDC, will post link.

 Trickstick wrote:

dahnarius wrote:
Question,

Can Pask give himself an order?

No:

"...Pask can issue orders to other Cadian Leman Russ Characters."

Important word is other, which would not include himself. He can only order normal Russes and Tank Commanders.

Edit: Arg, I've confused myself by investigating it now. Pask doesn't actually have the restriction that stops Tank Commanders from giving orders to characters. I'm going to kick this over to YMDC, will post link.

yupp. Day one FAQ please hehe ! It says you can pick a Leman Russ within ( to give an order ) 6'' of Pask. As he has no character restriction. > Can give himself an order ?

Link to YMDC post.

I am actually thinking that he can order himself now. He does not have the character restriction in the first place, so the other wording doesn't even matter.