Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Twoshoes23 wrote:
Just had a thought, turrets in general are completly redundant and offer absolutely no benefit now as everything can shoot 360 degrees. That is very lame, as comparing the taurox to the chimera i realized this. Also, why does the basilisk, wyvern, hydra ( the open topped chimera gun platforms) have 1 more wound then the chimera? Not really sure why they did this, it would make sense give the chimera a little extra durability ( in addition to its one extra toughness) to really differentiate it from the taurox.

I think the extra toughness is reasonable to note a little bit more armour.

+1w for a more robust suspension(carrying a big gun instead of a hollow crew compartment.

But -1t for less armour/open topped.

They take wounds easier from lower str weapons(autocannon wounds on a 3+ vs the 4+ for chimera and hellhound), but are better built for taking damage.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:
Still, I came in for the tanks even if I stayed for the carapace, so I do wonder if I can expand on a paratroopers + russes list. I have my old magenitzed russes somewhere, I am tmpted to start a discussion just to asses
I) Which russes are the best
II) Which front and sponson weapons suit better each turret weapon
III) Which Russes are better as Pask, which as Commander, which as "normal".

If your aim is to close with the enemy, a mix of demolishers and punishers can work. Also, if the annihilator is the cost of a russ + 2 lascannons, I can see that being the popular AT tank. It may even get a slight discount, as some of the twin-weapon costs do.

As for which weapon options to take, it is far more open now. With the addition of split fire, I can see the classic las/bolt layout making a return. Cheap, has some hitting power and by spreading your AT power out you can shoot it one at a time, preventing overkill.

 Trickstick wrote:

Doctoralex wrote:
While I am very glad that IG is a strong faction now, surely it's not just all Plasma-Scions and mortars right?

What else has been working for you people?

I'd like to know people's thoughts/experiences with the Hellhound and the Banewolf.

Also, what do you guys think of Ogryn/Bullgryns?

I like the Hellhound. Good damage, especially with the 2dmg the inferno cannon gets. Very good overwatch with the dual flamers. Losing bs as you take damage doesn't matter, so it makes a good advancing/suicide unit. Add to that the increased chance of exploding for the Hellhound variant and I will certainly be trying it out. For 2 points a stormbolter seems good, 4 shots within 12" and no -1 to hit on the move like a stubber. I'm thinking a pair in 2000pts, with sentinels/rough riders to make a brigade possible.

MaxT wrote:
Ratlings vs Vindicare

Spoiler:

Doctoralex wrote:

Khadorstompy wrote:
I just mathed out the odds of a squad of 10 ratlings average damage to the Common Marine HQ Types and compared it to a Vindicare assassin.

Damage per Round of Shooting.

10 Ratlings (2.22 vs T4 3+)
(1.85 vs T5 3+)
(1.67 vs T4 2+)
(1.48 vs T5 2+)

vs

Vindicare (1.30 vs T4 3+)
(1.30 vs T5 3+)
(0.67 vs T4 2+)
(0.67 vs T5 2+)

Needless to say I don't think either have great odds out right killing any of the Space Marine HQs in a round even with multiple groups. If someone could check my math would appreciate it.

There are a couple of things here we have to keep in mind:

First of all, one squad of Ratlings (70 points) does not compare equally to one Vindicare (90 points), so let's make two squads of Ratlings; one of 10 models (70) and one of three models. (21)

Secondly, their weapons are quite different:

Ratlings: Heav1 S4 ap- damage 1, BUT a wound roll of a 6 is a Mortal Wound IN ADDITION to its regular damage.

Vindicare: Heavy 1 S5 AP -3 damage D3, a roll of a 6 to wound causes D6 damage instead.
Also, the Vindicare always wounds on a 2+ against infantry and invuln saves cannot be made against his attacks. And the target cannot take cover bonuses vs his attacks.

So let's see:

VS T4, 3+4++

Ratlings:
13 shots at BS 3+= 13, 0,67= 8.71 hits. 4+ wound= x 0,5= 4,3 wounds with one pretty much guaranteed mortal wound in addition to that. 3+ save = 4,3 x 0,33= unsaved 1.43, with one additional mortal wound.

Vindicare:
1 shot at BS 2+ = 1 x 0,83= 0,83 hits. 2+ to wound=x 0,83= 0,67 wounds, with 0,14 chance it being D6 wounds. 6+ save = 0,67 x 0,83= 0,55 unsaved wounds. D3 damage = 0,55 x 2 = unsaved 1.11 wounds. With D6 damage= 0,55 x 3,5= 1.9 unsaved wounds.


However, I feel that the Vindicare's.... talent, is kind of wasted against a mere Space Marine Captain.


Let's take a look at something tougher: Ghazhkull Thraka.

Ratlings:
13 shots at BS 3+= 13 x 0,67= 8.71 hits. 5+ to wound= 8.71 x 0,33= 2.87 wounds. with one additional mortal wound. 2+ save = 2.87 x 0.17= 0.49 unsaved wounds, with one additional mortal wound.

Vindicare:
1 shot at BS 2+ = 1 x 0,83= 0,83 hits. 2+ to wound= x 0,83= 0,67 wounds, with 0,14 chance it being D6 wounds. 5+ save= 0,45 unsaved wounds. D3 damage= 0,45 x 2 = 0,9 unsaved wounds. With D6 damage= 0,45x 3,5= 1.56 unsaved wounds.


Unfortunately it seems that the Vindicare can't really put out the same amount of damage as the Ratlings, simply due to the fact that they can dish out Mortal Wounds. Even if your roll lucky dice and get D6 damage with the Vindicare, you should get lucky with the Ratlings too and score 2-3 Mortal Wounds, in which case they REALLY outshine the Vindicare.

The only thing the Vindicare has going for him is high survivability. With T 5, 5 wounds a 4+ invuln and -2 to hit if he is in cover, he is a tough nut to crack.
The Ratlings with a mere T2, 4+ save in cover and 1 wound will likely drop models very quick and start losing firepower.

A real non shooting benefit to the ratlings is pushing out that 9" deep strike bubble from your main force very effectively. Ratlings turn 1 will likely do more damage than the Vindicare as you show, but T2 onwards the superior survivability of the assassin will really help. I gotta think the Vindicare will do more damage overall throughout the average game.

jaxor1983 wrote:
Storm bolters don't seem to be available to hellhounds.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Ratlings vs Vindicare

Spoiler:

Doctoralex wrote:

Khadorstompy wrote:
I just mathed out the odds of a squad of 10 ratlings average damage to the Common Marine HQ Types and compared it to a Vindicare assassin.

Damage per Round of Shooting.

10 Ratlings (2.22 vs T4 3+)
(1.85 vs T5 3+)
(1.67 vs T4 2+)
(1.48 vs T5 2+)

vs

Vindicare (1.30 vs T4 3+)
(1.30 vs T5 3+)
(0.67 vs T4 2+)
(0.67 vs T5 2+)

Needless to say I don't think either have great odds out right killing any of the Space Marine HQs in a round even with multiple groups. If someone could check my math would appreciate it.

There are a couple of things here we have to keep in mind:

First of all, one squad of Ratlings (70 points) does not compare equally to one Vindicare (90 points), so let's make two squads of Ratlings; one of 10 models (70) and one of three models. (21)

Secondly, their weapons are quite different:

Ratlings: Heav1 S4 ap- damage 1, BUT a wound roll of a 6 is a Mortal Wound IN ADDITION to its regular damage.

Vindicare: Heavy 1 S5 AP -3 damage D3, a roll of a 6 to wound causes D6 damage instead.
Also, the Vindicare always wounds on a 2+ against infantry and invuln saves cannot be made against his attacks. And the target cannot take cover bonuses vs his attacks.

So let's see:

VS T4, 3+4++

Ratlings:
13 shots at BS 3+= 13, 0,67= 8.71 hits. 4+ wound= x 0,5= 4,3 wounds with one pretty much guaranteed mortal wound in addition to that. 3+ save = 4,3 x 0,33= unsaved 1.43, with one additional mortal wound.

Vindicare:
1 shot at BS 2+ = 1 x 0,83= 0,83 hits. 2+ to wound=x 0,83= 0,67 wounds, with 0,14 chance it being D6 wounds. 6+ save = 0,67 x 0,83= 0,55 unsaved wounds. D3 damage = 0,55 x 2 = unsaved 1.11 wounds. With D6 damage= 0,55 x 3,5= 1.9 unsaved wounds.


However, I feel that the Vindicare's.... talent, is kind of wasted against a mere Space Marine Captain.


Let's take a look at something tougher: Ghazhkull Thraka.

Ratlings:
13 shots at BS 3+= 13 x 0,67= 8.71 hits. 5+ to wound= 8.71 x 0,33= 2.87 wounds. with one additional mortal wound. 2+ save = 2.87 x 0.17= 0.49 unsaved wounds, with one additional mortal wound.

Vindicare:
1 shot at BS 2+ = 1 x 0,83= 0,83 hits. 2+ to wound= x 0,83= 0,67 wounds, with 0,14 chance it being D6 wounds. 5+ save= 0,45 unsaved wounds. D3 damage= 0,45 x 2 = 0,9 unsaved wounds. With D6 damage= 0,45x 3,5= 1.56 unsaved wounds.


Unfortunately it seems that the Vindicare can't really put out the same amount of damage as the Ratlings, simply due to the fact that they can dish out Mortal Wounds. Even if your roll lucky dice and get D6 damage with the Vindicare, you should get lucky with the Ratlings too and score 2-3 Mortal Wounds, in which case they REALLY outshine the Vindicare.

The only thing the Vindicare has going for him is high survivability. With T 5, 5 wounds a 4+ invuln and -2 to hit if he is in cover, he is a tough nut to crack.
The Ratlings with a mere T2, 4+ save in cover and 1 wound will likely drop models very quick and start losing firepower.

A real non shooting benefit to the ratlings is pushing out that 9" deep strike bubble from your main force very effectively. Ratlings turn 1 will likely do more damage than the Vindicare as you show, but T2 onwards the superior survivability of the assassin will really help. I gotta think the Vindicare will do more damage overall throughout the average game.

That's why they have "Shoot sharp and scarper" though.

You should be setting them up in or near some piece of terrain so they can pop out, shoot, then pop back into cover on their turn so they can't be shot.

Essentially you need to channel your annoying Tau player and Jump Shoot Jump with them, since heavy only causes you -1 to hit when you move back into position next turn. You're mainly fishing for 6's anyways and those will be the same whether you moved or stayed put.

 daedalus wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
IG is not strong Conscripts, Scions, and Artillery are strong.

Well, and Hellhounds. And Baneblades. And Tauroxen. And Mortar HWS teams. And the other stuff isn't bad either, since pretty much all of it got cheaper except for tanks and chimeras. I mean, infantry lost combined squads, but commissars made that matter far less (it's probably a buff at this point in a lot of ways), AND they got cheaper, so it's not like they got worse. Oh, and they changed the core rules so that the entire army no longer has their armor negated by every other army's cheapest, crappiest weapons.

But if you keep repeating your mantra about how bad IG are once a page or so, it might become true.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Twoshoes makes a very good point:
Under the current rules for 8th turrets are useless, and in fact a detriment to the vehicle carrying them. As vehicles have a 369 degree firearc now, turrets have no real special purpose, but their addition increases the height of the vehicle in question, meaning that it has a harder time taking cover.

MrPyro wrote:
Any mathhammer for a plasma cannon vs lascannon on sentinels?

jaxor1983 wrote:
Alright. I'm going to use Pask and 2 Tank Commanders in my first list.

I'm planning on all plasma and lascannons on the Tank Commanders, since they get Pasks orders.

But the question is what is the best turret for Pask? He's got BS2+, but the executioner turret is still too scary. Is a battle cannon better? or a vanquisher? I don't need a punisher as there will be both wyverns and conscripts around.

The battle cannon seems like the better choice since vanquishers are (stupidly) STR 8, meaning they have a 50/50 chance to wound the targets they are made for. On the other hand(!), I'll have 16 CP, so that 4+ to wound a T 8 units can be rerolled each shooting phase.

MrPyro wrote:
Any mathhammer for a plasma cannon vs lascannon on sentinels?

 NenkotaMoon wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
IG is not strong Conscripts, Scions, and Artillery are strong.

Well, and Hellhounds. And Baneblades. And Tauroxen. And Mortar HWS teams. And the other stuff isn't bad either, since pretty much all of it got cheaper except for tanks and chimeras. I mean, infantry lost combined squads, but commissars made that matter far less (it's probably a buff at this point in a lot of ways), AND they got cheaper, so it's not like they got worse. Oh, and they changed the core rules so that the entire army no longer has their armor negated by every other army's cheapest, crappiest weapons.

But if you keep repeating your mantra about how bad IG are once a page or so, it might become true.

I'm not saying it's bad, Im saying that there are certain things that are available and more iconic are pretty useless. And when I mean artillery I include mortar. I'm actually a huge advocate for mortar as I even used it in my Company Command teams whenever possible. Our arty is gonna wreck gak. Baneblades are too expensive still for regular play (more just $ cost).Flamers I also advocated here already were very effective.

I hate Tauroxes, even them being good wont stop me from despising how they look. Unfortunately, I don't have the money to convert them to have Chimera treads.

I do like a lot of the rules, but a lot of the stuff that I got into Guard for isn't there for me. I came for Tanks and Chimera, with big groups of men running and shooting everything they can. Now I can only take big groups of men.

Though I will say it is way better than 7E. Regardless of how I feel I will take 8E any day of the week over 7E.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Both of you please watch this:




Then tell me that mech guard and tanks are dead. They aren't at all. You are over reacting.

Edit: They are in fact BUFFED significantly.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Otto von Bludd wrote:
Both of you please watch this:




Then tell me that mech guard and tanks are dead. They aren't at all. You are over reacting.

Edit: They are in fact BUFFED significantly.

I see 1 tank there.

I also saw a lot of IFV's and 2 artillery pieces.

Watching it now to see what that tank achieves.

Edit: 3 tanks. There's 2 Banewolves


Okay, I watched most of it. I skipped around, trying to just watch the IG Shooting phases. I don't think I saw the Battle Cannon do a thing. I did see the tank use it's trio of heavy flamers on necrons, but I didn't see the primary cannon do anything. I can buy Chimerae or Hellhounds if I need tanks to cart flamers around.

 Otto Weston wrote:
Okay whilst we've seen that Veterans lose Carapace, Camo Cloaks and some weapon options (e.g. Plasma Guns) in the index, is there some hope they'll be returned to us when the dedicated IG codex comes out or is that pretty much dead for sure?

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
You messed up more than that, whatever you were trying to prove to us.

BTW

Command point rules, having some trouble figuring out how to calculate that.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

MaxT wrote:
Ratlings vs Vindicare

Spoiler:

Doctoralex wrote:

Khadorstompy wrote:
I just mathed out the odds of a squad of 10 ratlings average damage to the Common Marine HQ Types and compared it to a Vindicare assassin.

Damage per Round of Shooting.

10 Ratlings (2.22 vs T4 3+)
(1.85 vs T5 3+)
(1.67 vs T4 2+)
(1.48 vs T5 2+)

vs

Vindicare (1.30 vs T4 3+)
(1.30 vs T5 3+)
(0.67 vs T4 2+)
(0.67 vs T5 2+)

Needless to say I don't think either have great odds out right killing any of the Space Marine HQs in a round even with multiple groups. If someone could check my math would appreciate it.

There are a couple of things here we have to keep in mind:

First of all, one squad of Ratlings (70 points) does not compare equally to one Vindicare (90 points), so let's make two squads of Ratlings; one of 10 models (70) and one of three models. (21)

Secondly, their weapons are quite different:

Ratlings: Heav1 S4 ap- damage 1, BUT a wound roll of a 6 is a Mortal Wound IN ADDITION to its regular damage.

Vindicare: Heavy 1 S5 AP -3 damage D3, a roll of a 6 to wound causes D6 damage instead.
Also, the Vindicare always wounds on a 2+ against infantry and invuln saves cannot be made against his attacks. And the target cannot take cover bonuses vs his attacks.

So let's see:

VS T4, 3+4++

Ratlings:
13 shots at BS 3+= 13, 0,67= 8.71 hits. 4+ wound= x 0,5= 4,3 wounds with one pretty much guaranteed mortal wound in addition to that. 3+ save = 4,3 x 0,33= unsaved 1.43, with one additional mortal wound.

Vindicare:
1 shot at BS 2+ = 1 x 0,83= 0,83 hits. 2+ to wound=x 0,83= 0,67 wounds, with 0,14 chance it being D6 wounds. 6+ save = 0,67 x 0,83= 0,55 unsaved wounds. D3 damage = 0,55 x 2 = unsaved 1.11 wounds. With D6 damage= 0,55 x 3,5= 1.9 unsaved wounds.


However, I feel that the Vindicare's.... talent, is kind of wasted against a mere Space Marine Captain.


Let's take a look at something tougher: Ghazhkull Thraka.

Ratlings:
13 shots at BS 3+= 13 x 0,67= 8.71 hits. 5+ to wound= 8.71 x 0,33= 2.87 wounds. with one additional mortal wound. 2+ save = 2.87 x 0.17= 0.49 unsaved wounds, with one additional mortal wound.

Vindicare:
1 shot at BS 2+ = 1 x 0,83= 0,83 hits. 2+ to wound= x 0,83= 0,67 wounds, with 0,14 chance it being D6 wounds. 5+ save= 0,45 unsaved wounds. D3 damage= 0,45 x 2 = 0,9 unsaved wounds. With D6 damage= 0,45x 3,5= 1.56 unsaved wounds.


Unfortunately it seems that the Vindicare can't really put out the same amount of damage as the Ratlings, simply due to the fact that they can dish out Mortal Wounds. Even if your roll lucky dice and get D6 damage with the Vindicare, you should get lucky with the Ratlings too and score 2-3 Mortal Wounds, in which case they REALLY outshine the Vindicare.

The only thing the Vindicare has going for him is high survivability. With T 5, 5 wounds a 4+ invuln and -2 to hit if he is in cover, he is a tough nut to crack.
The Ratlings with a mere T2, 4+ save in cover and 1 wound will likely drop models very quick and start losing firepower.

A real non shooting benefit to the ratlings is pushing out that 9" deep strike bubble from your main force very effectively. Ratlings turn 1 will likely do more damage than the Vindicare as you show, but T2 onwards the superior survivability of the assassin will really help. I gotta think the Vindicare will do more damage overall throughout the average game.

That's why they have "Shoot sharp and scarper" though.

You should be setting them up in or near some piece of terrain so they can pop out, shoot, then pop back into cover on their turn so they can't be shot.

Essentially you need to channel your annoying Tau player and Jump Shoot Jump with them, since heavy only causes you -1 to hit when you move back into position next turn. You're mainly fishing for 6's anyways and those will be the same whether you moved or stayed put.

Dovis wrote:
You can have a detachment of 6 Mortar teams (18 total Mortars) for just 162 points, that's 72 hits per turn average at 48" range, couple that with parashooting Scions, all with Plasmas (your friend used the points innefficiently, you can do 4 man squads of them, each with a special weapon, so you don't have to have that filler like your friend did)

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
You messed up more than that, whatever you were trying to prove to us.

BTW

Command point rules, having some trouble figuring out how to calculate that.

I have a feeling no amount of evidence of any kind would dissuade you from your doomsaying at this point.

 Otto von Bludd wrote:

 NenkotaMoon wrote:
You messed up more than that, whatever you were trying to prove to us.

BTW

Command point rules, having some trouble figuring out how to calculate that.

I have a feeling no amount of evidence of any kind would dissuade you from your doomsaying at this point.