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2017/06/08 22:30:49
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Just had a thought, turrets in general are completly redundant and offer absolutely no benefit now as everything can shoot 360 degrees. That is very lame, as comparing the taurox to the chimera i realized this. Also, why does the basilisk, wyvern, hydra ( the open topped chimera gun platforms) have 1 more wound then the chimera? Not really sure why they did this, it would make sense give the chimera a little extra durability ( in addition to its one extra toughness) to really differentiate it from the taurox.
2017/06/08 23:11:49
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Twoshoes23 wrote: Just had a thought, turrets in general are completly redundant and offer absolutely no benefit now as everything can shoot 360 degrees. That is very lame, as comparing the taurox to the chimera i realized this. Also, why does the basilisk, wyvern, hydra ( the open topped chimera gun platforms) have 1 more wound then the chimera? Not really sure why they did this, it would make sense give the chimera a little extra durability ( in addition to its one extra toughness) to really differentiate it from the taurox.
I think the extra toughness is reasonable to note a little bit more armour.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
2017/06/09 02:25:38
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
I just mathed out the odds of a squad of 10 ratlings average damage to the Common Marine HQ Types and compared it to a Vindicare assassin.
Damage per Round of Shooting.
10 Ratlings (2.22 vs T4 3+)
(1.85 vs T5 3+)
(1.67 vs T4 2+)
(1.48 vs T5 2+)
vs
Vindicare (1.30 vs T4 3+)
(1.30 vs T5 3+)
(0.67 vs T4 2+)
(0.67 vs T5 2+)
Needless to say I don't think either have great odds out right killing any of the Space Marine HQs in a round even with multiple groups. If someone could check my math would appreciate it.
2017/06/09 05:35:59
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Nope. We haven't been able to do that since the Doctrines book. Cruddace screwed that up for us.
I'm pushing hard for a FAQ/Errata of it. It literally costs them nothing to do so and Guard are basically the only faction in the game where the squad leaders cannot be equipped the same as the rest of the squad.
Exalted.
I would love to have Sergeants with Lasguns...my Elysians are no longer legal unless I treat the Lasguns with the under slung Grenade Launcher as a Bolter.
Khadorstompy wrote: All of the banehammers utilities come from being 20 points less then the Stormlord and the ability to 1/2 1 unit's movement. This is at the cost of more damaging firepower and more troop capacity.
That's one hell of a good rule tho. Halving a units movement (especially a big gribbly monster) can be huge. And there's no other way of doing it i don't think?
2017/06/09 10:49:27
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Khadorstompy wrote: I just mathed out the odds of a squad of 10 ratlings average damage to the Common Marine HQ Types and compared it to a Vindicare assassin.
Damage per Round of Shooting.
10 Ratlings (2.22 vs T4 3+)
(1.85 vs T5 3+)
(1.67 vs T4 2+)
(1.48 vs T5 2+)
vs
Vindicare (1.30 vs T4 3+)
(1.30 vs T5 3+)
(0.67 vs T4 2+)
(0.67 vs T5 2+)
Needless to say I don't think either have great odds out right killing any of the Space Marine HQs in a round even with multiple groups. If someone could check my math would appreciate it.
There are a couple of things here we have to keep in mind:
First of all, one squad of Ratlings (70 points) does not compare equally to one Vindicare (90 points), so let's make two squads of Ratlings; one of 10 models (70) and one of three models. (21)
Secondly, their weapons are quite different:
Ratlings: Heav1 S4 ap- damage 1, BUT a wound roll of a 6 is a Mortal Wound IN ADDITION to its regular damage.
Vindicare: Heavy 1 S5 AP -3 damage D3, a roll of a 6 to wound causes D6 damage instead.
Also, the Vindicare always wounds on a 2+ against infantry and invuln saves cannot be made against his attacks. And the target cannot take cover bonuses vs his attacks.
So let's see:
VS T4, 3+4++
Ratlings: 13 shots at BS 3+= 13, 0,67= 8.71 hits. 4+ wound= x 0,5= 4,3 wounds with one pretty much guaranteed mortal wound in addition to that. 3+ save = 4,3 x 0,33= unsaved 1.43, with one additional mortal wound.
Vindicare: 1 shot at BS 2+ = 1 x 0,83= 0,83 hits. 2+ to wound=x 0,83= 0,67 wounds, with 0,14 chance it being D6 wounds. 6+ save = 0,67 x 0,83= 0,55 unsaved wounds. D3 damage = 0,55 x 2 = unsaved 1.11 wounds. With D6 damage= 0,55 x 3,5= 1.9 unsaved wounds.
However, I feel that the Vindicare's.... talent, is kind of wasted against a mere Space Marine Captain.
Let's take a look at something tougher: Ghazhkull Thraka.
Ratlings:
13 shots at BS 3+= 13 x 0,67= 8.71 hits. 5+ to wound= 8.71 x 0,33= 2.87 wounds. with one additional mortal wound. 2+ save = 2.87 x 0.17= 0.49 unsaved wounds, with one additional mortal wound.
Vindicare:
1 shot at BS 2+ = 1 x 0,83= 0,83 hits. 2+ to wound= x 0,83= 0,67 wounds, with 0,14 chance it being D6 wounds. 5+ save= 0,45 unsaved wounds. D3 damage= 0,45 x 2 = 0,9 unsaved wounds. With D6 damage= 0,45x 3,5= 1.56 unsaved wounds.
Unfortunately it seems that the Vindicare can't really put out the same amount of damage as the Ratlings, simply due to the fact that they can dish out Mortal Wounds. Even if your roll lucky dice and get D6 damage with the Vindicare, you should get lucky with the Ratlings too and score 2-3 Mortal Wounds, in which case they REALLY outshine the Vindicare.
The only thing the Vindicare has going for him is high survivability. With T 5, 5 wounds a 4+ invuln and -2 to hit if he is in cover, he is a tough nut to crack.
The Ratlings with a mere T2, 4+ save in cover and 1 wound will likely drop models very quick and start losing firepower.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 10:54:58
2017/06/09 12:01:42
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Khadorstompy wrote: I just mathed out the odds of a squad of 10 ratlings average damage to the Common Marine HQ Types and compared it to a Vindicare assassin.
Damage per Round of Shooting.
10 Ratlings (2.22 vs T4 3+)
(1.85 vs T5 3+)
(1.67 vs T4 2+)
(1.48 vs T5 2+)
vs
Vindicare (1.30 vs T4 3+)
(1.30 vs T5 3+)
(0.67 vs T4 2+)
(0.67 vs T5 2+)
Needless to say I don't think either have great odds out right killing any of the Space Marine HQs in a round even with multiple groups. If someone could check my math would appreciate it.
There are a couple of things here we have to keep in mind:
First of all, one squad of Ratlings (70 points) does not compare equally to one Vindicare (90 points), so let's make two squads of Ratlings; one of 10 models (70) and one of three models. (21)
Secondly, their weapons are quite different:
Ratlings: Heav1 S4 ap- damage 1, BUT a wound roll of a 6 is a Mortal Wound IN ADDITION to its regular damage.
Vindicare: Heavy 1 S5 AP -3 damage D3, a roll of a 6 to wound causes D6 damage instead.
Also, the Vindicare always wounds on a 2+ against infantry and invuln saves cannot be made against his attacks. And the target cannot take cover bonuses vs his attacks.
So let's see:
VS T4, 3+4++
Ratlings: 13 shots at BS 3+= 13, 0,67= 8.71 hits. 4+ wound= x 0,5= 4,3 wounds with one pretty much guaranteed mortal wound in addition to that. 3+ save = 4,3 x 0,33= unsaved 1.43, with one additional mortal wound.
Vindicare: 1 shot at BS 2+ = 1 x 0,83= 0,83 hits. 2+ to wound=x 0,83= 0,67 wounds, with 0,14 chance it being D6 wounds. 6+ save = 0,67 x 0,83= 0,55 unsaved wounds. D3 damage = 0,55 x 2 = unsaved 1.11 wounds. With D6 damage= 0,55 x 3,5= 1.9 unsaved wounds.
However, I feel that the Vindicare's.... talent, is kind of wasted against a mere Space Marine Captain.
Let's take a look at something tougher: Ghazhkull Thraka.
Ratlings:
13 shots at BS 3+= 13 x 0,67= 8.71 hits. 5+ to wound= 8.71 x 0,33= 2.87 wounds. with one additional mortal wound. 2+ save = 2.87 x 0.17= 0.49 unsaved wounds, with one additional mortal wound.
Vindicare:
1 shot at BS 2+ = 1 x 0,83= 0,83 hits. 2+ to wound= x 0,83= 0,67 wounds, with 0,14 chance it being D6 wounds. 5+ save= 0,45 unsaved wounds. D3 damage= 0,45 x 2 = 0,9 unsaved wounds. With D6 damage= 0,45x 3,5= 1.56 unsaved wounds.
Unfortunately it seems that the Vindicare can't really put out the same amount of damage as the Ratlings, simply due to the fact that they can dish out Mortal Wounds. Even if your roll lucky dice and get D6 damage with the Vindicare, you should get lucky with the Ratlings too and score 2-3 Mortal Wounds, in which case they REALLY outshine the Vindicare.
The only thing the Vindicare has going for him is high survivability. With T 5, 5 wounds a 4+ invuln and -2 to hit if he is in cover, he is a tough nut to crack.
The Ratlings with a mere T2, 4+ save in cover and 1 wound will likely drop models very quick and start losing firepower.
A real non shooting benefit to the ratlings is pushing out that 9" deep strike bubble from your main force very effectively. Ratlings turn 1 will likely do more damage than the Vindicare as you show, but T2 onwards the superior survivability of the assassin will really help. I gotta think the Vindicare will do more damage overall throughout the average game.
2017/06/09 12:43:16
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
So I just played a friends list last night and oh boy did he have some surprises for me. 2 Tempestus Primes (think thats what they're called, the scion guys that can give orders), then four units of 10 man scions each with 4 plasma guns and the sgt had a plasma pistol, all deep striking. The Prime gave the order to reroll ones so overcharge on everything. It is insanely point efficient for the firepower they bring, as they are really cheap and I believe they get plasma guns for 7 points lol.
2800
2017/06/09 12:48:45
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Khadorstompy wrote: I just mathed out the odds of a squad of 10 ratlings average damage to the Common Marine HQ Types and compared it to a Vindicare assassin.
Damage per Round of Shooting.
10 Ratlings (2.22 vs T4 3+)
(1.85 vs T5 3+)
(1.67 vs T4 2+)
(1.48 vs T5 2+)
vs
Vindicare (1.30 vs T4 3+)
(1.30 vs T5 3+)
(0.67 vs T4 2+)
(0.67 vs T5 2+)
Needless to say I don't think either have great odds out right killing any of the Space Marine HQs in a round even with multiple groups. If someone could check my math would appreciate it.
There are a couple of things here we have to keep in mind:
First of all, one squad of Ratlings (70 points) does not compare equally to one Vindicare (90 points), so let's make two squads of Ratlings; one of 10 models (70) and one of three models. (21)
Secondly, their weapons are quite different:
Ratlings: Heav1 S4 ap- damage 1, BUT a wound roll of a 6 is a Mortal Wound IN ADDITION to its regular damage.
Vindicare: Heavy 1 S5 AP -3 damage D3, a roll of a 6 to wound causes D6 damage instead.
Also, the Vindicare always wounds on a 2+ against infantry and invuln saves cannot be made against his attacks. And the target cannot take cover bonuses vs his attacks.
So let's see:
VS T4, 3+4++
Ratlings: 13 shots at BS 3+= 13, 0,67= 8.71 hits. 4+ wound= x 0,5= 4,3 wounds with one pretty much guaranteed mortal wound in addition to that. 3+ save = 4,3 x 0,33= unsaved 1.43, with one additional mortal wound.
Vindicare: 1 shot at BS 2+ = 1 x 0,83= 0,83 hits. 2+ to wound=x 0,83= 0,67 wounds, with 0,14 chance it being D6 wounds. 6+ save = 0,67 x 0,83= 0,55 unsaved wounds. D3 damage = 0,55 x 2 = unsaved 1.11 wounds. With D6 damage= 0,55 x 3,5= 1.9 unsaved wounds.
However, I feel that the Vindicare's.... talent, is kind of wasted against a mere Space Marine Captain.
Let's take a look at something tougher: Ghazhkull Thraka.
Ratlings:
13 shots at BS 3+= 13 x 0,67= 8.71 hits. 5+ to wound= 8.71 x 0,33= 2.87 wounds. with one additional mortal wound. 2+ save = 2.87 x 0.17= 0.49 unsaved wounds, with one additional mortal wound.
Vindicare:
1 shot at BS 2+ = 1 x 0,83= 0,83 hits. 2+ to wound= x 0,83= 0,67 wounds, with 0,14 chance it being D6 wounds. 5+ save= 0,45 unsaved wounds. D3 damage= 0,45 x 2 = 0,9 unsaved wounds. With D6 damage= 0,45x 3,5= 1.56 unsaved wounds.
Unfortunately it seems that the Vindicare can't really put out the same amount of damage as the Ratlings, simply due to the fact that they can dish out Mortal Wounds. Even if your roll lucky dice and get D6 damage with the Vindicare, you should get lucky with the Ratlings too and score 2-3 Mortal Wounds, in which case they REALLY outshine the Vindicare.
The only thing the Vindicare has going for him is high survivability. With T 5, 5 wounds a 4+ invuln and -2 to hit if he is in cover, he is a tough nut to crack.
The Ratlings with a mere T2, 4+ save in cover and 1 wound will likely drop models very quick and start losing firepower.
A real non shooting benefit to the ratlings is pushing out that 9" deep strike bubble from your main force very effectively. Ratlings turn 1 will likely do more damage than the Vindicare as you show, but T2 onwards the superior survivability of the assassin will really help. I gotta think the Vindicare will do more damage overall throughout the average game.
Unless your enemy underestimates the ridiculous models and lets them go on and on, that seems a likely scenario. Still, a Ratling unit is absolutely viable now, if nothing else to draw some fire.
2017/06/09 12:52:55
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
JohnMarik wrote: So I just played a friends list last night and oh boy did he have some surprises for me. 2 Tempestus Primes (think thats what they're called, the scion guys that can give orders), then four units of 10 man scions each with 4 plasma guns and the sgt had a plasma pistol, all deep striking. The Prime gave the order to reroll ones so overcharge on everything. It is insanely point efficient for the firepower they bring, as they are really cheap and I believe they get plasma guns for 7 points lol.
Yeah, AM is insanely strong in this edition
You can have a detachment of 6 Mortar teams (18 total Mortars) for just 162 points, that's 72 hits per turn average at 48" range, couple that with parashooting Scions, all with Plasmas (your friend used the points innefficiently, you can do 4 man squads of them, each with a special weapon, so you don't have to have that filler like your friend did)
Basically you get extremely versatile and cheap, heavy hitting force, AM is simply amazing in 8th
2017/06/09 13:18:20
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Hellhounds have 1 more wound then a chimera...how does that make sense? Advocating here because i want to use my chimera as a transport for two special weapons squads with 6 demo charges. Figure its got a better chance then a taurox to get there
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 13:26:18
2017/06/09 13:20:31
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Twoshoes23 wrote: Hellhounds have 1 more wound then a chimera...how does that make sense?
As do all the open topped artillery.
I would have had the chimera and hellhound have an extra wound over the open topped artillery. But regardless of this, it's great to see the Militarum actually become a decent faction again. I just need to decide what sort of army I want to use going forth. My heart says tanks but I understand that those units aren't quite there yet.
Tauroxes are OK now aren't they? I have a few and I'm hoping that they could be usable.
2017/06/09 13:37:32
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
169 points for dual SWS demo charge chimera kamikaze. Thats a steal of a bullet magnet!!! Time to get moddeling some big bags o' bombs on some of my squads.
2017/06/09 13:43:32
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Twoshoes23 wrote: 169 points for dual SWS demo charge chimera kamikaze. Thats a steal of a bullet magnet!!! Time to get moddeling some big bags o' bombs on some of my squads.
Don't forget that a squad can only fire one grenade a turn. So maybe one demo charge two flamers?
ahh crap your right that ups it a couple points and certainly lowers the potential damage. Still a viable threat, especially If I drive it straight towards whatever threatening unit the enemy has. Also considering scout sentinel support as well, all in the aim of stopping deep strikes and slowing the enemy advance down a couple of turns.
2017/06/09 14:01:15
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Twoshoes23 wrote: 169 points for dual SWS demo charge chimera kamikaze. Thats a steal of a bullet magnet!!! Time to get moddeling some big bags o' bombs on some of my squads.
Don't forget that a squad can only fire one grenade a turn. So maybe one demo charge two flamers?
Are Demo charges grenades?
2017/06/09 14:06:16
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Doctoralex wrote: While I am very glad that IG is a strong faction now, surely it's not just all Plasma-Scions and mortars right?
What else has been working for you people?
I'd like to know people's thoughts/experiences with the Hellhound and the Banewolf.
Also, what do you guys think of Ogryn/Bullgryns?
I like the Hellhound. Good damage, especially with the 2dmg the inferno cannon gets. Very good overwatch with the dual flamers. Losing bs as you take damage doesn't matter, so it makes a good advancing/suicide unit. Add to that the increased chance of exploding for the Hellhound variant and I will certainly be trying it out. For 2 points a stormbolter seems good, 4 shots within 12" and no -1 to hit on the move like a stubber. I'm thinking a pair in 2000pts, with sentinels/rough riders to make a brigade possible.
Psienesis wrote: I've... seen things... you people wouldn't believe. Milk cartons on fire off the shoulder of 3rd-hour English; I watched Cheez-beams glitter in the dark near the Admin Parking Gate... All those... moments... will be lost, in time, like tears... in... rain. Time... to die.
"The Emperor points, and we obey,
Through the warp and far away."
-A Guardsman's Ballad
2017/06/09 14:55:04
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
NenkotaMoon wrote: IG is not strong Conscripts, Scions, and Artillery are strong.
Well, and Hellhounds. And Baneblades. And Tauroxen. And Mortar HWS teams. And the other stuff isn't bad either, since pretty much all of it got cheaper except for tanks and chimeras. I mean, infantry lost combined squads, but commissars made that matter far less (it's probably a buff at this point in a lot of ways), AND they got cheaper, so it's not like they got worse. Oh, and they changed the core rules so that the entire army no longer has their armor negated by every other army's cheapest, crappiest weapons.
But if you keep repeating your mantra about how bad IG are once a page or so, it might become true.
I am afraid the next codex the guard will be nerfed to oblivion again, like what happened for the 5th ---> 6th. After all, we cannot steal the spotlight from the TRUE PROTAGONISTS of the story, or the designer pet army, am I right?
Said this, I am happy because I built a decently sized scions contingent and 6 converted tauroxes before it was cool (I did it mid-7th). If they don't nerf them too hard, I am happy to have my paratroopers, their toy-transports and the fact that I can build the 2 valkyries with different payloads, is more interesting modelling-wise. If such list is just plain "usable", I am happy.
Still, I came in for the tanks even if I stayed for the carapace, so I do wonder if I can expand on a paratroopers + russes list. I have my old magenitzed russes somewhere, I am tempted to start a discussion just to assess I) Which russes are the best II) Which front and sponson weapons suit better each turret weapon III) Which Russes are better as Pask, which as Commander, which as "normal".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/09 15:27:54
2017/06/09 15:01:38
Subject: Re:Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Kaiyanwang wrote: Still, I came in for the tanks even if I stayed for the carapace, so I do wonder if I can expand on a paratroopers + russes list. I have my old magenitzed russes somewhere, I am tmpted to start a discussion just to asses
I) Which russes are the best
II) Which front and sponson weapons suit better each turret weapon
III) Which Russes are better as Pask, which as Commander, which as "normal".
If your aim is to close with the enemy, a mix of demolishers and punishers can work. Also, if the annihilator is the cost of a russ + 2 lascannons, I can see that being the popular AT tank. It may even get a slight discount, as some of the twin-weapon costs do.
As for which weapon options to take, it is far more open now. With the addition of split fire, I can see the classic las/bolt layout making a return. Cheap, has some hitting power and by spreading your AT power out you can shoot it one at a time, preventing overkill.
2017/06/09 15:13:02
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Twoshoes23 wrote: Just had a thought, turrets in general are completly redundant and offer absolutely no benefit now as everything can shoot 360 degrees. That is very lame, as comparing the taurox to the chimera i realized this. Also, why does the basilisk, wyvern, hydra ( the open topped chimera gun platforms) have 1 more wound then the chimera? Not really sure why they did this, it would make sense give the chimera a little extra durability ( in addition to its one extra toughness) to really differentiate it from the taurox.
I think the extra toughness is reasonable to note a little bit more armour.
+1w for a more robust suspension(carrying a big gun instead of a hollow crew compartment.
But -1t for less armour/open topped.
They take wounds easier from lower str weapons(autocannon wounds on a 3+ vs the 4+ for chimera and hellhound), but are better built for taking damage.
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
2017/06/09 15:16:50
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Twoshoes23 wrote: Just had a thought, turrets in general are completly redundant and offer absolutely no benefit now as everything can shoot 360 degrees. That is very lame, as comparing the taurox to the chimera i realized this. Also, why does the basilisk, wyvern, hydra ( the open topped chimera gun platforms) have 1 more wound then the chimera? Not really sure why they did this, it would make sense give the chimera a little extra durability ( in addition to its one extra toughness) to really differentiate it from the taurox.
I think the extra toughness is reasonable to note a little bit more armour.
+1w for a more robust suspension(carrying a big gun instead of a hollow crew compartment.
But -1t for less armour/open topped.
They take wounds easier from lower str weapons(autocannon wounds on a 3+ vs the 4+ for chimera and hellhound), but are better built for taking damage.
That's some logic I can get behind.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress
+Spaceship Gaming Enthusiast+
Live near Halifax, NS? Ask me about our group, the Ordo Haligonias!
2017/06/09 15:25:24
Subject: Astra Militarum 8th ed. Discussion and Rumor Roundup
Twoshoes23 wrote: Just had a thought, turrets in general are completly redundant and offer absolutely no benefit now as everything can shoot 360 degrees. That is very lame, as comparing the taurox to the chimera i realized this. Also, why does the basilisk, wyvern, hydra ( the open topped chimera gun platforms) have 1 more wound then the chimera? Not really sure why they did this, it would make sense give the chimera a little extra durability ( in addition to its one extra toughness) to really differentiate it from the taurox.
I think the extra toughness is reasonable to note a little bit more armour.
+1w for a more robust suspension(carrying a big gun instead of a hollow crew compartment.
But -1t for less armour/open topped.
They take wounds easier from lower str weapons(autocannon wounds on a 3+ vs the 4+ for chimera and hellhound), but are better built for taking damage.
Mordian Iron Guard - Major Overhaul in Progress 
Finished Tau Sept Cadre 
Finished Ork Waaagh | 
Alaitoc Eldar Warhost 
Finished Order of Our Martyred Lady - Sisters of Battle 
Finished Necromundian Imperial Guard Regiment 
2800 
