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 Xenomancers wrote:
So - the core build did go down quite a bit. GMNDK got a pretty big drop. Draigo is now auto include and hes quite a beast.

Did we also get real smite - havn't seen anything about that? 80 point crowe is kinda hilarious also - is there any reason not to take him at that price?

Are purifiers worth it now? they require an obligatory storm raven but that also got cheaper.

I guess I'm trying to be optimistic. Is there anything we aren't considering?

Gmndk is a little cheaper. No, our smite is the same. Purifiers still suck and are astrike squad with poor smite range, no obsec, and no deep strike for the same price as the strike squad.

 Xenomancers wrote:
So - the core build did go down quite a bit. GMNDK got a pretty big drop. Draigo is now auto include and hes quite a beast.

Did we also get real smite - havn't seen anything about that? 80 point crowe is kinda hilarious also - is there any reason not to take him at that price?

Are purifiers worth it now? they require an obligatory storm raven but that also got cheaper.

I guess I'm trying to be optimistic. Is there anything we aren't considering?

Ancient is now 90 points so could it be worthy to take several to give +1 attack across the board or to deep strike 2 along with 10 strikes / terminators / paladins to make more sure that at least one make it to the combat?

Also this bring me another question. Is the bonus cumulative? If there is 3 ancient together between 6 inches of a SS squad is this means that the strike marines get +3 attacks?

Also now a unit of 4 servitors would be 20 points. I guess that now can be considered as our most efficient "screen" unit. Lore wise make sense to have servitors as cannon fooders in a GK army

the wording says if they are in range of "any" banners they get +1 attack that phase. I think that is exclusive.

 Xenomancers wrote:
the wording says if they are in range of "any" banners they get +1 attack that phase. I think that is exclusive.

Also, and this is me half-remembering something the YMDC folk were reciting as gospel, abilities of the same name won't stack.

Saying that we are the big winner is a bit like saying someone who leaves Poker night up $2 up is a big winner. It might technically be true, but in the big picture it means nothing.

 Smotejob wrote:

I have a purgation squad still armed with 4 psycannons, so I may use those again. Anyone math hammer the psilencer vs psycannons yet at the new price point?

Hello your mathhammer technician has returned. Now with graphs!

Storm Bolter at 2 points. Psilencer at 4 points, Psycannon at 7 points.

Graph 1
Assume multi-wound targets (e.g. the Psilencer's D3 damage is relevant).
Assume -1 to hit penalty for moving with heavy weapons
Assume 3+ armor save targets (AP still applies)


Graph 2
Assume single-wound targets (e.g. the Psilencers D3 damage is NOT relevant)
Assume -1 to hit penalty for moving with heavy weapons
Assume 3+ armor save targets (AP still applies)



TLDR
Against multi-wound targets (Shooting) — Psilencer still best in damage. Psilencer still best in damage-per-points.
Against single-wound targets (Shooting) — Psycannon still best in damage. Psycannon moved from "worst" to "middle" in damage-per-points with latest points decrease. Rapid-Firing Storm Bolter still best in damage-per-points.

Nairul- Just so you know you're off a decimal place on your Damage per point chart. The half points need to be moved one decimal to the right.

Those other armies’ points changes help to improve their army internal balance. However, this chapter approved did not really improve internal balance for the grey knights. Games workshop tried (and i commend them for it). So, let us discuss the failures from a GK player perspective.

One of the GK’s major issues is that GW over values the grey knight psyker phase. With only 1 table to go off of (so 6 powers, 2 suck, 3 are good, 1 is usable) to distribute amongst 15ish units (at 2k points). There will be many units not casting table powers and will use their baby smite. That 1 mortal wound is okay but nothing to write home about. It’s more of a nice thing.

The Grandmaster NDK is still king of the codex and it got cheaper. It is now 10 points more than a regular dreadknight (which wasn’t touched). What does the GMNDK get for +10pts? +1 ws, +1 bs, reroll 1s aura, +1 invul, +1 psychic power. This is not good internal balance. Don’t get me wrong, the GMNDK is now priced correctly, but the regular NDK needs a reduction of about 40 pts for good internal balance.

Draigo is at a good price now. All other HQs are rather meh in comparison. Yes they are all better than they used to be, but Draigo and GMNDK are just so good in comparison, you should never take a different HQ. Again, not good internal balance.

Libbys are still not useful because GK are an army of psykers, so having extra powers doesn’t mean much, and will again just be casting baby smite. An argument can be made for brother captains, but you need to build around the brother captain (ie baby smite spam), he doesn’t actually play well with many lists.

Crowe still has the same problems for 30 points less from before CA and suffers the same problem as purifiers, 3” smite range.

Talking about Purifier squads. The GK “veterans” are still terrible and will not be taken because of their rules, not their points. They are the same price as strike squads now, which is better. But that is for a unit that is a strike squad with a worse smite, no deep strike, and no obsec. So they will still never be taken. Not balanced. 3” smite range will never get used, even if it is always 1d6. Upgrade that to 6” and now we will have a unit worth taking, that’s it, that’s how you fix them (also gives synergy and reason to bring a brother Captain) Otherwise, they will remain off the table.

Purgation squads (our devastators) are also strike squads w/o obsec and deep strike for the same price per model. Their benefit? They take 4 heavy 24” guns instead of 1. These guys need to be 2-3 points less than a strike squad. I’ve been experimenting with them for a while and even with the point reductions to the GK heavy weapons, they still won’t be great.

Speaking of strike squads, these are 1A models paying for force weapons, which is wasted because you don’t actually want these guys in combat with their current stat line. They are a good anti-horde-mid-range-shooting unit, and a rather meh close combat unit. They alone will usually kill about 2 guardsmen a turn in CC. If you give them falchions, then you are looking at about 4 guardsmen a turn in cc. Make those any sort of demon, and now we are looking at 1 bloodletter a turn killed in CC (that invul). Also, since the deep strike nerf, they guys are on the struggle bus. It was a good nerf, the game needed it, but the strike squads are still paying for it.

Grey Knight terminators are about 20% more expensive than vanilla marine terminators for a worse model. Vanilla marines come stock w/ a power fist (vs a force sword). A force sword has less damage output than a powerfist (str 4 vs str 8 attacks), albiet power fist has -1 to hit. Yes the gk has psyker (see above). I could see picking up a couple points for obsec, but less points charged for the weaker close combat weapon. So GKT should be 25-27ish points (over the 23 vanilla marine because obsec+psyker) +2 for storm bolter + 5ish for force sword (powerfist is 9 pts). Making our termie about 32-34ish points, not 41 points stock. You would make every grey knight player so happy with 33 point terminators, and they would be internally and externally balanced at that price!

As of CA, Terminators are about double the price of a strike squad with half the damage output and with anti tank weapons back on the rise, only slightly more durable.

Paladins are worse custodies for only a few points less. Custodies have +1 str, +1T, better cc weapon (a combination of GKs force sword and force halberd), +1” move, obsec, +1 invul save, and access to storm shields. GK paladins are only a few more points than GK terminators and fill a similar role. Not exactly good internal or external balance. If the above changes are made to terminators (about 32-34 points) then Paladins should be about the price of what the new GK terminator is (about 40-42 points). After all, paladins are just a terminator with +1W +1A and no obsec.

Some make the argument that the reduction in points that other armies got is to combat imperial knights. Ie, cheaper high-ap multi-wound guns. Those kind of weapons happen to be hard counters the grey knights as well. So those buffs to other armies counter the grey knights. So grey knights are getting indirectly nerfed because imperial knights are too good.

These are the major issues that people have with this codex.
So lets look at how this affects the GK core units. Terminators and paladins got a couple points better, so did plasma. This therefore is a wash. However, strike squads didn’t get reduced thus resulting in a nerf. And those 3 units are the CORE of the grey knights. You cannot Grey knight without either terminators or strike squads unless you are just adding a command detachment to a soup list.

There is the doom and gloom. Well… what improved? The Grey knight ancients, apoc, dreadnoughts, as well as flyers (slightly, more because they are better in vanilla codex).

I may field a dreadnought now with autocannons or with twin las & missile for anti-tank. This helps to offset the grey knight issue of having long range fire power to hold the back field objectives. The medic is a bit cheaper and is a good candidate for one of the relics, making him into a 75 point beat stick that can heal wounds.

Interceptors are now 10pts cheaper per unit of 5. Woo.

A strange change is the massive reduction in a tech marine and servitor pricing. A detachment of a tech marine w/ 3 units of servitors may be a cheap way to field objective holders and gain a command point in the grey knight codex, although the loyal 32 will still do this much better and gain more CP.

With these changes, mono-grey knights should have moved from the bottom of the bottom tier to mid-teir, but will end up somewhere still in the bottom tier. And honestly, just making the suggestions I made here will bring the GK to mid tier without making them OP.

One thing that, I feel, would solve many problems is to give us access to Intercessors. Psyker Intercessors yeah, so they probably should be about 100 even for a unit (rather than 85 for current Intercessors). No Force Weapon means you don't have to bloat their cost further (they have no melee weapon, I guess let the sergeant take a Force Weapon instead of a Power Fist).

Now we get a troop unit for a lower cost that actually has a different role than Strikes/Termies (shoot and hold).

I always felt GK are made to be accompanied by an IK.
It was what you often saw in 6th and 7th ed.

What do you guys think, considering the point drops we recently received?
How would your list would look like if you were to take a knight?

I have a tourney list that has a warden and two helvrins running besides my grey knights. It's pretty mean. Most of my losses with it are usually due to user error and not the list.

It's a warden, 2x helvrins

2x gmndk, 3x strikes

Then I build around it from there. I've got a few versions, one fleshes out the grey knights, one brings in guard, another has shields captains on bikes.

I notice one of two things. Either my opponent targets my warden and my gmndk run free, or they Target my gmndk and my warden runs free.

Last time I ran it and did well was fleshed out with razorbacks with assault cannons and interceptors. Might bring that back with some adjustments.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Nairul- Just so you know you're off a decimal place on your Damage per point chart. The half points need to be moved one decimal to the right.

Sorry, can you explain further? Not understanding.

On your left hand column for DPP you have the numbers 0.35,0.3,0.25, etc.. I would think that you meant 3.5, 3.0, 2.5, etc.. That's what I mean by "decimal shift".

This is the email I am sending to GW.

GW FAQ,
There is a lot of good in the grey Knight CA updates, and I know you are already working on the faq. Here is list of things that were over looked/mistakes for grey knights.
-regular dreadknight wasn't reduced in points and is now only 10pts less than gmndk. Gmndk is +1ws, +1bs, +1invul, reroll 1 aura, character, and 1 more power to cast per turn.
-grey knight terminators are worse than space marine terminators but are 7pts more expensive (power fist vs force sword, str 8 v str 4, both 1d3 wounds, -1 ws vs -0ws). gkt with psyker and obsec should be about 26pts, +5 for force sword, +2 for storm bolter. 33 pts total.
- paladins should be about 43 pts, they are terminators with +1a, +1w, -obsec
-strikesquads are okay, but purgation and purifiers should be fixed as they are weaker versions of the strike squad (-obsec, -deepstrike). -3 more points to each. Or for purifiers...
-purifiers are weak because of their smite nerf to 3". Make it 6" (this also fixes the brother captain as they having something to synergize with).
- brother Captain, Chaplin, champion, crowe, Libby are all outshined by voldus, draigo, and gmndk. Give them something special.
-strikesquads still pay for alpha strike even though it was nerfed
-gk need a second psyker table. GK pay for psyker but only have 1 table for 10-15 units (@2,000pt game size)
-twin auto Cannon is still over priced. Other armies pay 10pts per autocannon, so the twin autocannon should be 20pts not 33.
-twin assault cannons should be 30pts. GK were punished because robute gulliman is good.
-psycannon after the pts reduction is still worse than psilencer in most cases. Math hammer it. The psycannon is only better against t4,t5,t6,t7,t8 single wound models with 3+ or 2+ save. And it is only slightly better.
-psychic onslaught and psybolt is still 2cp. Needs to be 1cp.


Good jobs on:
Draigo, gmndk, dreadknight weapons, vehicle weaponals, dreadnoughts, voldus, ancients, medics and interceptors. Those are much better now.

I really appreciate the attention for the grey knights, just a few things more do need fixing.

NDK are 40 points less than GMNDK, not 10 (130 vs 170)

For the rest of the email, I agree. I would emphasyze more the need to reduce at least one or two points the Strikes, but I don't think the FAQ would adress these issues...

Worth noting that NDK with just a flamer is pretty effing cheap now.

zinch wrote:
NDK are 40 points less than GMNDK, not 10 (130 vs 170)

For the rest of the email, I agree. I would emphasyze more the need to reduce at least one or two points the Strikes, but I don't think the FAQ would adress these issues...

I know what I did, I counted the dreadknight with the weapons. Ha


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Worth noting that NDK with just a flamer is pretty effing cheap now.

I've thought about it. But hard to justify the 3.5 hits a turn for the 190ish pts. And they aren't worth a second gun

If you could double up on the Flamer, you'd have a reason to use the regular Dreadknight at least.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
On your left hand column for DPP you have the numbers 0.35,0.3,0.25, etc.. I would think that you meant 3.5, 3.0, 2.5, etc.. That's what I mean by "decimal shift".

Nope, they're accurate. The calculation is for Damage Per Point (DPP) e.g. how much damage output is each point giving you?

So at each Toughness value I divide the average damage (bottom graph) by the wargear's point cost.

Example:
A 2pt storm bolter, not rapid-firing, is 0.3 average damage vs. T3 @ 3+ save.
2 Attacks > 1.33 Average Hits > 0.89 Average Wounds > 0.3 Average Unsaved Wounds > 0.3 Average Damage

Therefore it has a DPP value of 0.15 vs. T3 @ 3+ save.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you could double up on the Flamer, you'd have a reason to use the regular Dreadknight at least.

That I would take...

Question about dreads...
So GK have their own dreads but it has the same name as a space marine dread. Can I take 3 of each?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you could double up on the Flamer, you'd have a reason to use the regular Dreadknight at least.

We should ask for this change from GW....I see no reason why they can't double up on weapons.

Because only one comes in a kit would be the answer.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Question about dreads...
So GK have their own dreads but it has the same name as a space marine dread. Can I take 3 of each?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you could double up on the Flamer, you'd have a reason to use the regular Dreadknight at least.

We should ask for this change from GW....I see no reason why they can't double up on weapons.

I do think we should be able to take the 3 Dreadnoughts from each codex. Look at the example of Chaos Daemon Princes.

 Smotejob wrote:
This is the email I am sending to GW.

GW FAQ,
There is a lot of good in the grey Knight CA updates, and I know you are already working on the faq. Here is list of things that were over looked/mistakes for grey knights.
-regular dreadknight wasn't reduced in points and is now only 10pts less than gmndk. Gmndk is +1ws, +1bs, +1invul, reroll 1 aura, character, and 1 more power to cast per turn.
-grey knight terminators are worse than space marine terminators but are 7pts more expensive (power fist vs force sword, str 8 v str 4, both 1d3 wounds, -1 ws vs -0ws). gkt with psyker and obsec should be about 26pts, +5 for force sword, +2 for storm bolter. 33 pts total.
- paladins should be about 43 pts, they are terminators with +1a, +1w, -obsec
-strikesquads are okay, but purgation and purifiers should be fixed as they are weaker versions of the strike squad (-obsec, -deepstrike). -3 more points to each. Or for purifiers...
-purifiers are weak because of their smite nerf to 3". Make it 6" (this also fixes the brother captain as they having something to synergize with).
- brother Captain, Chaplin, champion, crowe, Libby are all outshined by voldus, draigo, and gmndk. Give them something special.
-strikesquads still pay for alpha strike even though it was nerfed
-gk need a second psyker table. GK pay for psyker but only have 1 table for 10-15 units (@2,000pt game size)
-twin auto Cannon is still over priced. Other armies pay 10pts per autocannon, so the twin autocannon should be 20pts not 33.
-twin assault cannons should be 30pts. GK were punished because robute gulliman is good.
-psycannon after the pts reduction is still worse than psilencer in most cases. Math hammer it. The psycannon is only better against t4,t5,t6,t7,t8 single wound models with 3+ or 2+ save. And it is only slightly better.
-psychic onslaught and psybolt is still 2cp. Needs to be 1cp.


Good jobs on:
Draigo, gmndk, dreadknight weapons, vehicle weaponals, dreadnoughts, voldus, ancients, medics and interceptors. Those are much better now.

I really appreciate the attention for the grey knights, just a few things more do need fixing.

I would like to amend this email. Terminators who take a heavy weapon pay 4 more points than power armor. Therefore the force weapon is 4 pts.

[b]

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you could double up on the Flamer, you'd have a reason to use the regular Dreadknight at least.

Nuts... I thought we could double up on the weapons. I must have missed something (normal for me).

zer0runner wrote:
[b]

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you could double up on the Flamer, you'd have a reason to use the regular Dreadknight at least.

Nuts... I thought we could double up on the weapons. I must have missed something (normal for me).

If that were the case, everyone's 7th edition Dreadknight would be double Psycannon or Incinerator instead of one-of-each (which looks bad and terribly silly).

So, is there a worse terminator now than the grey Knight terminator? Do we have the worst version now?

On another note, been trying other gk models out. My findings? I'm only taking gmndk now.

 Quickjager wrote:
Because only one comes in a kit would be the answer.

Well...I hate to be that guy but a tau commander comes with one of each weapon but has the rules to take 4 of each weapon....I can think of a lot of examples where units have the rules but not the gear option.

Venerable dreads for example don't even come with a rocket launcher in their kit...but they can still take rockets.

I really think this is something we as a community should get behind. Give our dreadknights double options.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

zer0runner wrote:
[b]

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you could double up on the Flamer, you'd have a reason to use the regular Dreadknight at least.

Nuts... I thought we could double up on the weapons. I must have missed something (normal for me).

If that were the case, everyone's 7th edition Dreadknight would be double Psycannon or Incinerator instead of one-of-each (which looks bad and terribly silly).

I gotta stop reading when i'm tired.....

Yeah, the codex ssys two DIFFERENT. Figures.

A few thoughts (and reasons for optimism):

I play a lot of regular 40k tournaments here in the UK and recently came 2nd at Caledonian Uprising (100 players) and 2nd at Glasshammer Open (80 players). I just say this so that my ideas aren't dismissed as nonsense as I appreciate I have never posted on this thread before.

- I played GKs for the start of 8th and love the army, unfortunately since new books came out, soup changes and deepstrike changes, GKs turned non-viable
- With the release of CA, yes GKs didn't get the fixes we desperately needed (full smite, 85pt strike squads, DKs ignoring to-hit penalties) but there are a few positives
- I think you need to utilise the units that did see points drops whilst retaining viability - NDKGMs, interceptors, dreadnoughts, venerables, characters, techs
- Yes GKs are still a soup army if they want to remain viable in a tournament setting
- Combining a number of sources that had points decreases with the units that had drops in GKs, you can actually tally up quite a decent chunk of "free" post-CA points (my list gained 177pts of free stuff)

Now, having said that, onto the competitive talk:

- We need to utilise, as a soup army, things that synergise
- We also need to "abuse" the strategies that are the most "broken" in the GK source: namely 2++ NDKGMs (this does work as confirmed by GW judges at Warhammer world - the save is still capped at 3++ but "adding +1" to saves does not alter the "save" itself and therefore your NDKGM has a 2++)
- Also our cheap 1CP "soulburst" when NDKGMs die
- Gate of infinity
- Ignore LOS: where in competitive play, LOS block is becoming a massive, massive factor and the ability to send 18 NDKGM shots at a unit of hiding reapers, spears, aggressors or whatever, is HUGE

So, taking into account all these points, and looking across all the deductions and changes in CA, I came up with a list, and after 5 test games so far it looks like this:

Grey Knights Battalion
NDKGM w/ Gatling & Heavy Psycannon, Sword, Teleport
NDKGM w/ Gatling & Heavy Psycannon, Sword, Teleport
4 Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
4 Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
4 Strikes w/ Falchions, Psilencer
Dreadnought w/ Plasma Cannon, Missile Launcher
Dreadnought w/ Plasma Cannon, Missile Launcher

AdMech Battalion Graia
Techpriest Enginseer
Techpriest Enginseer
5 Skitarii Rangers
5 Skitarii Rangers
5 Skitarii Rangers

House Krast Super Heavy Detachment
Knight Crusader w/ Thermal Cannon, Avenger Gatling Cannon, Ironstorm Missiles, Heavy Stubber
Warglaive
Warglaive


So this list has gained 177pts of extra stuff since CA (basically affording a second NDKGM).

So the basic tactic is this. Deploy one NDKGM (with sanctuary) and a strike squad (with gate). Both the dreads have astral aim. The Crusader takes ion bulwark for 3++ with rotate ion shields and the Krast relic giving +1 damage against vehicles and +2 against super heavies.

You use heed the prog on the NDKGM then cast sanctuary and astral aim on him then gate him over within range of the opponent's juicy targets. He pumps his guns and kills something important that is out of LOS. The crusader murders vehicles fairly easily and the underrated warglaives apply pressure with their 44-50" thermal spear threat range.

First turn the opponent therefore has to deal with a NDKGM with a 2++ save and when they DO finally kill him, he can shoot back or fight in combat. The dreads add some great cheap backfield shooting at only 101pts a pop are incredible value for money. They also have to deal with a 3++ Krast Crusader who, if he doesn't die, can shoot again at full BS thanks to the strat. He is also a beast in combat with exploding 6s and re-rolling all hits, as are the Warglaives.

So far I played against talos/ravager spam Drukhari twice, AM with castellan once and double spear ynnari twice and managed to win 4 games, losing one. Having said that, I went first 3/4 games that I won which is huge as it gives you a 2++ NDKGM turn one. I do feel that this list has potential despite all the drawbacks of CA and other gains that other armies have made. However we can still abuse what gains we did make with the NDKGMs, the dreadnoughts, the little tricks our codex still possesses, the new cheapness of AdMech and the strong backfield Imperial Knights provide.

I forgot to say, the enginseers repair the dreads and Knight (up to 2 wounds per turn) and are awesome. Taking Graia on the detachment allows you to deny powers within 24' which is a great bonus and a 6+ FNP.

Now, I appreciate that many players here aren't interested in competitive 40k whatsoever or tournaments and I appreciate that and apologise for the lengthy post. However, there are not many places where one can discuss GK tactics with others so I have ended up here