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 Homeskillet wrote:
I like the idea of now cheaper Interceptors mass jumping up along with a Gated NDKGM with First to the Fray. I'm guessing that's what GuadStrider used? The only issue I have is by maxing out your Interceptors, you're hampering your ability to get CP. I had looked into an Outrider with maxed 10 man squads and a NDKGM, and it was over 800 points. Anyone tried this?

Yeah, thats pretty much what I dio, mass interceptor jump followed my Gated Grandmaster on a NDK, started to appreciate Interceptors more than Strike Squads due the fact that they can actually reliably charge people with their large movement.


To max Interceptors I guess you could remove the Venerable Dread, but you may hurt your already poor anti armor by doing so.

 GuardStrider wrote:

 Homeskillet wrote:
I like the idea of now cheaper Interceptors mass jumping up along with a Gated NDKGM with First to the Fray. I'm guessing that's what GuadStrider used? The only issue I have is by maxing out your Interceptors, you're hampering your ability to get CP. I had looked into an Outrider with maxed 10 man squads and a NDKGM, and it was over 800 points. Anyone tried this?

Yeah, thats pretty much what I dio, mass interceptor jump followed my Gated Grandmaster on a NDK, started to appreciate Interceptors more than Strike Squads due the fact that they can actually reliably charge people with their large movement.


To max Interceptors I guess you could remove the Venerable Dread, but you may hurt your already poor anti armor by doing so.

Just one advise if you go on the direction to synergy Draigo / GM / Banner auras in big assault units, especially with low attacks per models ones like interceptors or strikes. Don't be as stupid as I was for a long time. When you charging you do not need to move all the units in base contact with its targets. Also, you don't need to pile in with all the models if you don't want. So left one outside of the range of "within an inch of a model that is within an inch of an enemy model" but inside the 6" bubble of Draigo / GM / Banner so if the later cannot make the charge at least they will be providing the aura buff in combat. Is the reason why in this big units I use to have just one model with the warding stave as the mission of this single model is not to contribute to the combat but to conduct the aura buff to the unit, so with the stave also he can provide a first 5++ save as an extra bonus.

Personally I don't like the banner, most times either I fail to charge it or fail to charge the interceptors, so they end up 90% times I used it out of the aura

 GuardStrider wrote:
Personally I don't like the banner, most times either I fail to charge it or fail to charge the interceptors, so they end up 90% times I used it out of the aura

Probably I understand it wrong, in which case I would have to invite a lot of persons to beers to compensate. I guess that is more a topic for YMDC but when it says:

models Grey Knights Infantry units that are within 6" of a sacred banner

it means:

models Grey Knights Infantry units that are (the units) within 6" of a sacred banner makes one additional attack

or

models Grey Knights Infantry units that are (the models) within 6" of a sacred banner makes one additional attack

?

In the rulebook there is an statement that talks about units wholly within or models wholly within vs units within or models within but i cannot find any statement about "models of units within".

putting a battle report up from a list I am trying out

Here is the list:
Battalion
GMNDK - warlord - psilencer, psycannon, sword, trait: tenacious survivor (6+ fnp from rulebook)
GMNDK - psilencer, psycannon, sword, teleporter

Strike squad x6 - falchions
Strike squad x6 - falchions
Strike squad x6 - falchions

Interceptors x10 - falchions

Purgation x5 - 4 psilencer

Vanguard detachment
Techmarine

Venerable dreadnought - twin lascannon, twin autocannon
Venerable dreadnought - twin lascannon, twin autocannon
Venerable dreadnought - twin lascannon, twin autocannon

Assassins vanguard
Callidus
Callidus
Culexus

Just did my first fight with this list. Went against a guard/imperial knight list someone at my flgs said he is bringing to an up coming tournament.

His list was 3 leman russ tank commanders, 30 guardsmen infantry, an astropath, a bunch of elysians armed to the teeth with plasma, an imperial knight warden w. 2 warglaives and a vulture.

We called it on turn 3 when all he had left was the vulture 2x leman russ and a couple commanders.

Phew boy did my venerable dreads do some WORK this game. They were stars. The did the ancients proud.

I held 1 GMNDK in reserve with my strike squads. Interceptors were deployed behind a nice wall. Dreadnoughts were all sharing some nice ruins. Purgation squad was in another set of ruins.

He reserves his elysian force, he had troops in front of this knights who were in front of his tanks (the best way to sum up his deployment).

Turn 1 - I finished setting up first, both rolled a 3 for turn, I took 1st turn.
Dreadknight ports up the board and puts a few wounds on a warglaive, the dreadnoughts band together and destroy a leman russ right out of the gate. Purgation squad rips up a unit of guardsmen. Interceptors stood still in hiding.

His turn 1 - tried to hold my dreadknight up in CC for tar pit with an infantry squad, NDK kills 3 in over watch, 5 more in combat, the rest of the unit wants to run, burns 2 cp to keep them around +1 from the callidus assassin, earns 1 back from warlord trait. deletes my purgation squad with leman russ fire, the knights move up the board and whiff on shooting. his vulture targeted my interceptors (was fast enough to get the angle) and couldn't get around the 2+ save only killing 1.

My turn 2 - I bring in 1 strike squad and the other dreadknight. leaving 2 more strikes in reserve. My warlord dreadknight gets ported out of combat to go confront his knight warden. My two callidus come in (one rolls a 1 and deep strikes 4 inches from a leman russ) the other comes to help with the knights. My interceptors teleport to help with the knight as well (they know vortex of doom). To my benefit, he bunched up his knights pretty close. Vortex does 2 wounds to each of the knights. My Dreadnoughts target the knight warden doing 18 wounds to it, the callidus does 3 mortals to it. After all said and done it has 3 wounds left on it. my dreadknight makes it into combat and way overkill the knight and piles into another knight. My strike squad that deep struck in that turn finished off the last remained infantry squad. My callidus gets a 4 inch charge off tying up a leman russ commander.

His turn 2 - brings in the elysians, and they drop my gmndk warlord.. but that was about it. But now his plasma drop is spent.

My turn 3 - I deep strike the other two strike squads. The venerable dreads clean up the two warglaives and cripple the vulture to the last teir. I clean up the rest of his infantry with PAGK and the other GMNDK.
The assassins just assault the remaining leman russes to tie them up again. We called it there.

Had this game gone on 1 more turn, he likely would have been tabled.

GMNDK did good jobs as bullet sponges, but those ven dreads did WORK. There is more testing to come but I like this list.

My initial repulsion against 2018 CA is less as I am coming up with functioning lists that are holding their own. Am I still perturbed about a couple decisions? Yes. But my grey knights are winning games and I'm using more than strikes and gmndk. Are they in my list? Yes. But good to see other stuff.

 Smotejob wrote:
My initial repulsion against 2018 CA is less as I am coming up with functioning lists that are holding their own. Am I still perturbed about a couple decisions? Yes. But my grey knights are winning games and I'm using more than strikes and gmndk. Are they in my list? Yes. But good to see other stuff.

Are you specifically playing with improved units from CA, or are you just giving GK another go? Cause I had a couple functioning lists before CA 2018 as well, and I could win games...just not against good players or most tournament lists.

EDIT: @Smotejob I’m not trying to question your abilities as a long-time GK player, I’m legitimately just curious what’s changed for your lists/tactics. More of my frustration is seeing people say stuff like “OMG 2++ GMDKs are really good”, “GMDKs can take down knights!!”, and “I’ve started using mass interceptor shunt” when those are things I’ve been doing literally since the codex dropped (except for a time when I ran triple storm ravens with Draigo).

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
My initial repulsion against 2018 CA is less as I am coming up with functioning lists that are holding their own. Am I still perturbed about a couple decisions? Yes. But my grey knights are winning games and I'm using more than strikes and gmndk. Are they in my list? Yes. But good to see other stuff.

Are you specifically playing with improved units from CA, or are you just giving GK another go? Cause I had a couple functioning lists before CA 2018 as well, and I could win games...just not against good players or most tournament lists.

Yeah, the big problem for me is GK's don't really win in a competitive setting.

Let's take the list in the batrep for example, Leman Russes aren't wildly considered very good. The Warden is also considered a poor choice in Knight. What if, instead, that Warden had been a Castellan (dropping Tank Commanders as necessary). The rest of the points are used making a Brigade/getting more CP as competitive Astra Militarum does.

All three Dreads combined AND in a re-roll 1's aura, would only average 5.43 wounds from their lascannons and 3.11 damage from the autocannons for a combined 8.54 average. That's assuming the Castellan does NOT Rotate Ion Shields. If he does, it's 3.63 plus 3.11 for 6.74. He has 28 life and even if you degrade him he can Machine Spirt Resurgent for 1 CP and ignore it. As an additional FYI, the former scenario has a 17% chance of doing no wounds to the Castellan and the latter a 34% chance. 1 in 3 times, expect to do zilch to the guy if Rotate is up.

By comparison, since you can only Astral Aim 1 Dreadnought, the other 2 are just completely hosed by return fire. Cawl's Wrath should average 8.49 wounds to a Dreadnought with the Raven strat going, 3.52 with the Volcano, 3.64 with the Siegebreakers and 2.11 with the Oathbreaker. Combined total of 17.76 damage to Dreadnought class targets on average.

One unit change opens up an entire world of hurting. Sprinkle in Mortars with the Infantry, maybe Ogryns, sounds like a pain train.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Smotejob wrote:
My initial repulsion against 2018 CA is less as I am coming up with functioning lists that are holding their own. Am I still perturbed about a couple decisions? Yes. But my grey knights are winning games and I'm using more than strikes and gmndk. Are they in my list? Yes. But good to see other stuff.

Are you specifically playing with improved units from CA, or are you just giving GK another go? Cause I had a couple functioning lists before CA 2018 as well, and I could win games...just not against good players or most tournament lists.

EDIT: @Smotejob I’m not trying to question your abilities as a long-time GK player, I’m legitimately just curious what’s changed for your lists/tactics. More of my frustration is seeing people say stuff like “OMG 2++ GMDKs are really good”, “GMDKs can take down knights!!”, and “I’ve started using mass interceptor shunt” when those are things I’ve been doing literally since the codex dropped (except for a time when I ran triple storm ravens with Draigo).

I have a list that is fun with purifiers and land raider crusader. Crowe is in that one. Venerable dreads are now efficient enough to be included. My Brother captain and crowe are seeing play now. Started including my ancient as well more.

Flgs games feel better and more confident. Will be attending my first ca2018 tournament in a couple weeks. Will see how it goes

Never thought these words would come out of my mouth — 80-point Crowe is starting to grow on me.

He's a cheap HQ slot, and simply a good filler if you have 80 spare points remaining and don't know what to buy. Now he's 75% the cost of a Strike Squad, but more durable AND more threatening. And since my lists auto-include a Brother Captain (usually Stern), there's a potential synergy for Crowe's D6 smite. To find value with him I have to charge him into any unit that is unlikely to kill him after one round of combat. That way he'll get his D6 smite off next turn. For these reasons I prefer him to a Brotherhood Champion.

More words I never thought would come out of my mouth — 180-point Draigo does NOT seem to be an auto-include. He's still situational.

With GMNDK's more prevalent than ever, and therefore our re-roll auras abundant, in order for Draigo's aura to find value he would have to to affect LOADS of BS/WS 3+ models... or alternatively Stormraven/Stormhawk Interceptor(s). Also the resurgence of Ven Dreads (which I've not yet decided on) means that Draigo's aura becomes even more redundant. Sure he's still a beast in combat, but I'm not convinced his combat prowess alone is worth 180 points.

I agree, I keep not bringing draigo. I think he is great in a paladin heavy list. He has his place but is not an auto include.

I'm starting to see 3 types of lists I like for grey knights.

A paladin heavy with draigo... Aka draigo star.
Purifiers, Crowe and a brother captain/captain Stern in a landraider.
And the list I posted above in my batrep.

Each list has gmndk in it still. Each list can be shrunk to get into a soup if I wanted.

 Smotejob wrote:

I'm starting to see 3 types of lists I like for grey knights.

I can appreciate that.

Personally, though, I keep tinkering with variations on the same type of list. That's because my tastes are a bit pickier than yours, and I feel my competitive-ish lists NEED the following elements:

13+ CP. So two battalions... either 6x Strike or 3x Strike and the loyal 32. Because GK are active in every phase we're quite CP hungry (not to mention all our over-costed stratagems). I'd feel like rubbish bringing 10 or less CP.

2x GMNDK. One isn't enough for me. Some lists have ways of dealing with that Heed+Sanctuary combo (Null Zone, Agents of Vect, Jinx, etc.) but those tactics are only temporary. If they dealt with the first, very often the second won't be as easy.

BroCap && Ancient w/ Banner of Refining flame. I'm absolutely in love with this ~200pt. combo. You get a D6 Smite on the Deep Strike, plus the BroCap takes Purge Soul and has LD10 standing next to the Ancient.
Last game my Stern's Purge Soul dealt SEVEN mortal wounds to a Voidraven because he rolled a 2 and I rolled a 6. Holy cow. I'm never leaving home without this combo.

Thus my lists kind of build themselves. The only question is how to satisfy Tactical Reserves for units/points on the table. I've experimented with Interceptor Squads, Stormhawks, Ven Dreads, Rhinos/Razorbacks. Taking a 195pt Guard Battalion (+5 units on the board) sure makes it easier... but I'm determined to come up with a PURE list that can get the job done. Here's my latest idea:



Since our Ven Dreads cost extra for being Psykers, I don't quite like the idea of making ALL THREE into back-line shooty Dreads (often wasting the Psychic potential of two). Why not footslog them with a Techmarine escort? Walk up the field & Smite things. Sit on objectives. Threaten Knights in melee. Pop smoke if there's nothing good to shoot their Plasma at. @133 points they're not much more expensive than a Strike Squad yet Dreads are more durable and more threatening.

I really don't like the loyal 32. Every time I bring it I just feel empty, like something inside me died. I'm tired of it. Want my gk to hold their own. Just gk need more of those cp.

Another interesting tidbit — at 19 points the Heavy Incinerator is no longer a rubbish option on the GMNDK, but it's not an auto-include either. Once the GMNDK has gone down to his middle wounds profile, the Heavy Incinerator starts to outperform the Gatling Psilencer in damage output. Also Heavy Incinerator beats Gatling Psilencer when shooting at units that have an inherent -1 to hit aura. Also Heavy Incinerator best in Overwatch... but if someone's charging your GMNDK then you're smiling already =)

Heavy Psycannon is still an auto-include.

I'll still take Gatling Psilencer/Heavy Psycannon by default, just to have the option of Psychic Onslaught stratagem. Also the extra range can come in handy. But if shaving off 1 point could buy me an extra Psilencer on one of my PAGK squads, then I'll consider "downgrading" the Gatling Psilencer to a Heavy Incinerator.

Relevant Graphs
Assume GMNDK at middle profile (3+ BS) and has moved (-1 to hit).

 Nairul wrote:
Another interesting tidbit — at 19 points the Heavy Incinerator is no longer a rubbish option on the GMNDK, but it's not an auto-include either. Once the GMNDK has gone down to his middle wounds profile, the Heavy Incinerator starts to outperform the Gatling Psilencer in damage output. Also Heavy Incinerator beats Gatling Psilencer when shooting at units that have an inherent -1 to hit aura. Also Heavy Incinerator best in Overwatch... but if someone's charging your GMNDK then you're smiling already =)

Heavy Psycannon is still an auto-include.

I'll still take Gatling Psilencer/Heavy Psycannon by default, just to have the option of Psychic Onslaught stratagem. Also the extra range can come in handy. But if shaving off 1 point could buy me an extra Psilencer on one of my PAGK squads, then I'll consider "downgrading" the Gatling Psilencer to a Heavy Incinerator.

Relevant Graphs
Assume GMNDK at middle profile (3+ BS) and has moved (-1 to hit).

Spoiler:

I'm considering the NDK with incinerator. Cheaper platform for same damage output with the gun. I've got three models, I can take 1-2 or 2-1 depending on points.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:


I'm considering the NDK with incinerator. Cheaper platform for same damage output with the gun. I've got three models, I can take 1-2 or 2-1 depending on points.

Interesting! You've inspired me to crunch some more numbers and explore this age-old question of GMDNK vs NDK, which I thought had been solved (but maybe not?).


(1) The NDK with only H.Incinerator is obviously ~50% the shooting output of a typical 2-gun GMNDK, taking into account variable wound profiles. Also an unbuffed NDK has ~50% the melee output of a GMNDK (because they score about half the hits). This information shouldn't be new to anybody. Therefore since NDK is roughly half the overall damage output of a GMNDK ... but way more than half (~75%) the point cost... it's hard to see the benefit of taking NDK over GMNDK.

(2) But I've never thought to add Draigo's aura into the equation, which wouldn't be hard to pull off because the NDK bases are so large that if they made a 9" charge you could angle them to be within 6" of a nearby Draigo (who presumably Deep Strike'd or Gated nearby)

Shooting: Of course, nothing changes if you give the NDK only an H.Incinerator. But why stop there? If you add a Heavy Psycannon w/ reroll hits... suddenly the NDK offers ~85% the shooting output of a GMNDK. That's not bad! Here the NDK actually beats the GMNDK on points efficiency.
Melee: With Draigo's aura you get ~73% the hits, and therefore ~73% the damage. So that pretty much brings the NDK up-to-par with it's base point cost being ~75% that of a GMNDK.
Combine Shooting and Melee together, and the NDK w/ Draigo's Aura actually outputs a bit more damage-per-point than his GMNDK counterpart. That's pretty cool!

(3) However, snapping back to reality... is the NDK's slightly-more-efficient damage output worth it? Considering you lose all these other cool features...

5++ vs. 4++
1 cast vs. 2 cast
No aura vs. Reroll 1's
No Character vs. Character <--- This one is a big deal, I think. We lose the Heroic Intervention opportunity. And more importantly, we lose the opportunity for 1CP "Only In Death Does Duty End" when they die. Next to Heed, I think that stratagem is one of the best in our Codex, and it synergizes REALLY well with GMNDK. Makes me feel like a Ynaari player lol.

TLDR Even with Draigo nearby I'm still leaning towards GMNDK>NDK for all the reasons listed in #3. But If you're heart set on taking NDK(s) then it seems the best way to run them would be H.Incinerator + H.Psycannon with Draigo nearby.
I really don't see the benefit in taking them with only H. Incinerator, since H.Psycannon is really quite amazing even at BS 3+.

Is there a list for GK that works without IG or strikes? Just terminators and paladins, with maybe one NDK and some rhinos?

Why would you want rhinos? Models in terminator armor can't ride in them.

Karol wrote:
Is there a list for GK that works without IG or strikes? Just terminators and paladins, with maybe one NDK and some rhinos?

You can take troop terminators, however, they are going to die terrible deaths. they are still over costed for what they do. Terminator armor is meant to be a bullet sponge, but they just dont stand up to all the firepower that is out there. Paladins do it a bit more efficiently for the number of wounds they have for +8 points.

if you want to generate command points? then bring strike squads. if you want to go outside the dex then there are options. the cheapest being the guard. Another option is the sisters... just dont forget to bathe your brothers in the sisters blood before the battle.

Space Marines and Skiitari are lower on the priority list for us. Marines do what we do, die... but they do it cheaper. Intercessors are now cheaper than our strikes and may be decent objective holders. I dont have experience with skiitari.

Honestly, I've been doing some trial runs with lists online with a buddy of mine. Strikes are not half bad when you have scary stuff on the board and can hold them in reserve for 1 turn. 3x well placed strike squads with a draigo nearby will pick up like 25ish guard. they are good at clearing the back field.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Battle scribe update....
Battle scribe says our twin autocannon is now 30pts. However, I don't see that new price in chapter approved. I do see it in the forgeworld section for astartes. Is this correct? It's now 30pts?

I have a list that I think I like except I'm not sure about 1 aspect. It has a storm talon in it and I keep thinking that I could do better. I like the talon's speed and it's ability to ignore terrain. I also like its strafing rule. I don't like it lack of manuverability due to hypersonic and I don't like the -1 to hit with its heavy weapons.

Here is the list:

++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment (Imperium - Imperial Knights) [9 PL, 174pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Household Choice: House Mortan, Questor Imperialis

+ Lord of War [9 PL, 174pts] +

Armiger Warglaives [9 PL, 174pts]
. Armiger Warglaive [9 PL, 174pts]: Character (Knight Lance), Heirloom: Armour of the Sainted Ion, Meltagun [14pts], Warlord, Warlord Trait: Ion Bulwark

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Grey Knights) [64 PL, 1070pts] ++

+ HQ [26 PL, 428pts] +

Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 248pts]: Dreadfist [25pts], Heavy Incinerator [19pts], Heavy Psycannon [24pts], Nemesis Greatsword [10pts], Sanctuary

Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 180pts]: Hammerhand, Sanctuary

+ Troops [21 PL, 321pts] +

Strike Squad [7 PL, 107pts]: Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchions) [63pts]: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]
. Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]: Psilencer [4pts]
. Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]: Storm bolter [2pts], Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad [7 PL, 107pts]: Gate of Infinity
. 2x Grey Knight (Halberd) [42pts]: 2x Storm Bolter [4pts]
. Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]: Psilencer [4pts]
. Grey Knight (Sword) [21pts]: Storm Bolter [2pts]
. Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]: Storm bolter [2pts], Two Nemesis Falchions

Strike Squad [7 PL, 107pts]: Gate of Infinity
. 3x Grey Knight (Falchions) [63pts]: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]
. Grey Knight (Psilencer) [23pts]: Psilencer [4pts]
. Grey Knight Justicar [21pts]: Storm bolter [2pts], Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Fast Attack [8 PL, 117pts] +

Interceptor Squad [8 PL, 117pts]: Vortex of Doom
. Grey Knight (Psilencer) [25pts]: Psilencer [4pts]
. 3x Interceptor (Falchions) [69pts]: 3x Storm Bolter [6pts]
. Interceptor Justicar [23pts]: Storm bolter [2pts], Two Nemesis Falchions

+ Flyer [9 PL, 204pts] +

Stormtalon Gunship [9 PL, 204pts]: Twin Assault Cannon [44pts], Two Lascannons [50pts]

++ Total: [73 PL, 1244pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe (https://battlescribe.net)

Any C&C would be appreciated especially in regards to the talon. As a side note my FLGS plays at the 1250 level.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:


Any C&C would be appreciated especially in regards to the talon. As a side note my FLGS plays at the 1250 level.

Eh, if you're wanting to take a plane I see very little benefit in taking the Stormtalon over the Stormhawk. Consider for 3 points more you could buy a Stormhawk which brings the same guns PLUS a freaking Typhoon Missile Launcher. So even IF the opponent doesn't have FLY units the math simply favors the Stormhawk in terms of damage output.

Math also favors the Stormhawk in terms of survivability...
Stormhawk is T7 vs. Talon's T6
Stormhawk's "Reroll save rolls of 1" is kind of nifty.

In hovermode the Talon comes close to evening-out the damage difference... but then you've lost your -1 to Hit and that's a big deal. It's clear GW designed these two Astartes flyers to be "twins" of eachother where one specializes in anti-FLY and the other in anti-ground. But I don't know why they thought to give three guns to one and two guns to the other. Then they make the one with only two guns cost MORE points!

And in case you're considering the Stormhawk — I actually prefer the Icarus Stormcannon/Typhoon ML setup. Icarus got a big points drop and now is much more points-efficient than a Las-Talon. Most FLY units are T7 or lower, so the Icarus does work.

I wasn't set on a flyer. I was looking for some anti-armor punch. I like the twin assault cannon with 2 lascannon configuration but I just have the feeling that I could do better with something else for the same amount of points. I could be wrong but that's why I'm asking for help.

I hadn't considered the hawk but I'll certainly look into it. Thanks for the input.

I made a thing, https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/769475.page
Let me know what you think.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Why would you want rhinos? Models in terminator armor can't ride in them.

My guess is to tie up enemy shooting via charging. It's actually something Rhinos are good at, as there's basically nothing that can harm them in overwatch and dangerous shooting against even Paladins will be held up for at minimum a turn.

Unless the unit has fly of course, in which case oh well.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I wasn't set on a flyer. I was looking for some anti-armor punch. I like the twin assault cannon with 2 lascannon configuration but I just have the feeling that I could do better with something else for the same amount of points. I could be wrong but that's why I'm asking for help.

I hadn't considered the hawk but I'll certainly look into it. Thanks for the input.

If you're looking for some AT, maybe one of the cheaper Dreadnoughts with a Lascannon and ML. It isn't good but it can pop astral aim to ignore LoS and be perfectly safe behind some LoS blocking objects.

I have considered that but I just don't trust my dice to get astral aim working all the time. Just for an example, I played a game last weekend and I blew at least 3 rolls to get smite to work and even rolled snake eyes when attempting to cast an ability with Draigo in 3 straight games. This in a 3 round event.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I have considered that but I just don't trust my dice to get astral aim working all the time. Just for an example, I played a game last weekend and I blew at least 3 rolls to get smite to work and even rolled snake eyes when attempting to cast an ability with Draigo in 3 straight games. This in a 3 round event.

Stop using rounded dice. The chances of rolling a 1 on rounded dice is around 27%, is showed in a probability study a year or so ago.

Start using square edge dice.

SJ

Interesting. I never knew that. Can you link the study?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Interesting. I never knew that. Can you link the study?

A regular poster on Bolter and Chainsword is a professor at the University of Arizona. He posted his results over there. It was a class project to roll 1 million dice 1 million times each, with the class keeping track of each roll of each dice. They found that square edged dice with applied markings rolled near 16.666~%, while rounded edge/corner with drilled pips tending to roll 1’s at over 17-27% of the time. To find out why, he had the materials physics department cut the offending dice to determine what was causing the uneven outcome. They found that the 1’s side was in most cases heavier than the other side’s, but that the rounded edges and corners did not provide enough resistance to stop with the 1’s side down. Due to it becoming an inverse pendulum when rolled, these types of dice tend to stop rolling with the heavier side up more often.

He did reach out to the manufacturers, and was informed that the reason why non-casino dice are rounded is to allow them to save enough material to cast a 7th dice out of every 6, which saves them on manufacturing costs. Apparently, this was a known problem within the industry, hence why casino dice are sharp edged with printed pips. If I remember correctly, he said Chessex had some of the better balanced dice.

Since I read that study, I switched to square edged printed dice. My favorites for 40k are the GW Imperial Knight dice, which are square edged and printed, as well as being a GW licensed product.

I’d post a link, but I haven’t been on BnC in a while.

SJ

Thanks. I think I found a similar study right here on DakkaDakka.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/That%27s_How_I_Roll_-_A_Scientific_Analysis_of_Dice