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Nowadays? I'd say 30 points for a space marine statline, 2W, and 2+ armor is fair. Maybe add an extra point or two on top for a psychic power you're seldom ever going to use and nerfed smite.

I'd say they'd be O.K. around 36-38 PPM base. Part of the problem is FOC's want 3 troops instead of 2 so problems of over cost get felt extra. They need to be cheap enough you can get the minimum on a battalion without blowing almost half your points.

OR they need to be more like Custodes who get S5, T5, 2+/3++, 3A and 3W for 51PPM.

Terminator special weapons need to be reduced too. We don't have relentless now and just keeping your melee weapon isn't worth the difference between PA versions and Terminator versions.

I still haven’t figured out why custodes are cheaper than paladins.

 greyknight12 wrote:
I still haven’t figured out why custodes are cheaper than paladins.

The only guess I have is that GW really overpriced being a psyker or access to the Sanctic discipline.

Anyone else feeling a little depressed about the future of Grey Knights as a semi - competitive army? Because between the index cut and paste, and being completely ignored in Chapter Approved I'm feeling a bit like the red headed stepchild

Godeskian wrote:
Anyone else feeling a little depressed about the future of Grey Knights as a semi - competitive army? Because between the index cut and paste, and being completely ignored in Chapter Approved I'm feeling a bit like the red headed stepchild

Oh trust me, you aren't the only one. It's widespread.

I know it's not going to be amazing but has anybody thought of running Grey Knights coupled with a patrol detachment of Space Marines consisting of a libby and three camo cloak sniper scout squads?

I think it could have it's uses, making your opponents deployment very difficult and allowing you to stick more of your Grey Knights in deep strike reserve.

Plus the potential for more mortal wounds.

I'm thinking all of your grey knights in reserve apart from some interceptors which can then essentially just redeploy at the start of your first turn anyway by using there personal teleporters.

Again I know it's not going to be game breakingly effective but I think it might still have some mileage, thoughts?

Fantome wrote:
I know it's not going to be amazing but has anybody thought of running Grey Knights coupled with a patrol detachment of Space Marines consisting of a libby and three camo cloak sniper scout squads?

I think it could have it's uses, making your opponents deployment very difficult and allowing you to stick more of your Grey Knights in deep strike reserve.

Plus the potential for more mortal wounds.

I'm thinking all of your grey knights in reserve apart from some interceptors which can then essentially just redeploy at the start of your first turn anyway by using there personal teleporters.

Again I know it's not going to be game breakingly effective but I think it might still have some mileage, thoughts?

Would be worth a go I think.

I would also add a cheap Lieutenant to babysit the scouts. Gives them the wound re roll which is fine but also puts you up to a min size battalion. GK need all the easy command points they can get I find.

With a reroll of 1 to wound the scouts will stack up those mortal wounds a little faster on big targets. It also makes them pretty threatening to any of the cheap fragile characters which are often spammed, such as Primaris psykers.

Spartacus wrote:

Fantome wrote:
I know it's not going to be amazing but has anybody thought of running Grey Knights coupled with a patrol detachment of Space Marines consisting of a libby and three camo cloak sniper scout squads?

I think it could have it's uses, making your opponents deployment very difficult and allowing you to stick more of your Grey Knights in deep strike reserve.

Plus the potential for more mortal wounds.

I'm thinking all of your grey knights in reserve apart from some interceptors which can then essentially just redeploy at the start of your first turn anyway by using there personal teleporters.

Again I know it's not going to be game breakingly effective but I think it might still have some mileage, thoughts?

Would be worth a go I think.

I would also add a cheap Lieutenant to babysit the scouts. Gives them the wound re roll which is fine but also puts you up to a min size battalion. GK need all the easy command points they can get I find.

With a reroll of 1 to wound the scouts will stack up those mortal wounds a little faster on big targets. It also makes them pretty threatening to any of the cheap fragile characters which are often spammed, such as Primaris psykers.

Yeah but you're gonna want your scouts spread out probably beyond the Lieutenant's ability to get more than 1 of them in range. Those are your objective campers.

You should definitely throw in a second HQ for a battalion though. Make them Raven Guard to boot for the -1 to Hit. Good ideas all around.

I'll admit after all this I just slap 3 Grandmaster Dreadknights into a Supreme Command detachment and then ally them with something for my GK lists.

Hey warhammer 40,000 page! Super happy about the new edition and love so much that has come out. But unfortunately I'm here to give a complaint that's hopefully constructive.

I am a huge grey knight fan. I love the story. I love the models. I love pretty much everything about them. However, this edition we have been given easily the worst codex and rules so far. I started with such high hopes. And since other codecs have come out it is extremely apparent that the grey knight codex was given very little thought. There aren't any of the cool sub factions that every other codex has. Most of the units are basically unusable. And we are beaten at our own game very easily (custodes are better and cheaper than Paladins, pretty much anyone can smite better than we can).
Now I have played a few games. And even my most competitive builds are mediocre to other armies. And with this last chapter approved, we are getting an increase in points. And no bonus. None of our units can really do what they are designed to do. And we can't even really play in a cool "fluffy" way, even though you guys have done a tremendous job on other codecs.
I am part of several grey knight forums. And all of them agree and are really quite sad at the current state of the sons of Titan. And we all want our voices to be heard, that we want a change to make them fun to play.
If you can see this, and in any way pass it up the chain. Since we really have no way of directly contacting anyone and asking for a change on the army we love so much. It would be greatly appreciated by the whole community of grey knight players.
Also, if there is already some kind of update for our shiny boys. Maybe some primaris grey Knights or something that is already happening to fix the problem. Just a hint of that would give us all so much hope for our army.
Thank you in advance for any help you can give.

I just posted this on the comments on the warhammer page. I would recommend you gents doing something similar. Constructive and to the point.

Spartan117xyz wrote:

I just posted this on the comments on the warhammer page. I would recommend you gents doing something similar. Constructive and to the point.

Great post, I commented on it and hopefully the feedback will be acknowledged. Since other Grey Knight players on BolterandChainsword are also going to post messages, I've written out a personalized one about my own experiences.

"To the wonderful Warhammer Community staff,

I am hoping that you might pass along this message to the 40k game designers and balance testers. I recently started playing 40k again after a long hiatus having first played the game in 3rd edition until 5th edition. Grey Knights had always been my favorite faction in the lore and aesthetic and I had a sizable force of metal Grey Knight strike squads and terminators from when I played with the old Daemonhunters Codex. To my delight, Grey Knights were now entirely in plastic! Throughout the summer I purchased, built and painted an entirely new force of these beautiful plastic Grey Knights that stands at well over 4000 points at the moment with an entire airwing of Stormhawks, Stormtalons, and Stormravens (awesome models!).

While the experience of building and painting has been a true joy, the Grey Knights have increasingly fared less well on the tabletop against both index armies and the other codexes in semi-competitive matched play pickup games, local tournaments, and league matches. When I first heard about Chapter Approved I was excited for the prospect of the designers having a second look at the Grey Knights codex, which suffers from poor internal balance in stark contrast to the Astra Militarum, Tyranids, and Aeldari codexes and some bizarre points costs for certain units like Techmarines (which are 100% more expensive than their codex Space Marine counterparts). However, having now seen the points adjustments for our faction—a single minor points decrease for terminators alongside increases for our most efficient aerial options and weapons—I feel that we have been almost entirely neglected. While I am not a competitive tournament player (fortunately since Grey Knights have struggled to place well even with a Codex without allying in an IG brigade), I would love to be able to put Land Raiders, Purifiers, Techmarines, Terminators, Paladin Ancients, and other options into my lists without being completely run over by my opponents because I had too many points tied up in ineffective units that can never earn back their cost. In addition, all of our special weapons—the unique options that Grey Knights players should want to take—are entirely lackluster and do not seem to have clear roles and are absurdly overcosted for what they do in-game. And lastly, our command point situation is unenviable. At most a 2,000 point Grey Knight army will have 5-7 command points, which is hardly enough to ever use our best stratagems, which are 2 and 3 CPs while saving a few for command point re-rolls. This issue is compounded by the fact that we do not have a way to recycle command points like other imperial armies. Perhaps the Domina Liber Daemonica could return used CPs on a 5+ as well since it is widely regarded as the worst relic in the game or Kaldor Draigo could grant battleforged Grey Knight armies an additional 2 CPs.

These are simply a few ideas, but there are threads on every major 40k forum in which disappointed Grey Knight players are offering feedback on the army and we would be grateful if some of it could be passed along to the balance team. They have a difficult task looking at so many factions and moving pieces, but the Grey Knights are a clear example of a faction, which received few changes from the Index to the Codex and now Chapter Approved even though the army has been struggling to produce results.
Thank you in advance"

I`m gonna try to bring this thread a little bit back on topic since my salt levels from initially reading the leaks hast settled a bit by now...

Over the last few weeks i was trying to find a way to use my 3 riflemen dreads that i still have back from the psy-ammo glory days
So far im really struggling to make them worth their points (since you basically pay for 3 astral aims but you are only ever using 1...)

my final conclusion is a little bit sad but IMHO I feel that if i want to use them i probably should not use them as GKs...

3 Venerable Space Marine Dreadnought including a primaris lieutenant with a MC Stalker bolt rifle is just 15pts more expensive than just 3 GK Ven Dreads (or 32 when upgrading to a captain)
I lose out on 1/3 Astral Aim casts attempts per turn but i gain reroll wound in 12" range (BT relic Crusader Helm) 1shot str4 ap-2 d2 in 36" and 1CP for a full vanguard detachment (cheapest option GKs have to fill that HQ slot would be a barebone Brotherhood Champ who has 0 synergy with anything and cant even deepstrike for 115pts minimum.

Would this be a worthwile thing to do for people like me who want to get some mileage out of their already bought models or does anyone see a better way ?

Thoughts ?

If you guys wanna talk fixes for the codex there's a thread in the Porposed Rules Subforum so we can keep this area nice and clean.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Emulgator wrote:
I`m gonna try to bring this thread a little bit back on topic since my salt levels from initially reading the leaks hast settled a bit by now...

Over the last few weeks i was trying to find a way to use my 3 riflemen dreads that i still have back from the psy-ammo glory days
So far im really struggling to make them worth their points (since you basically pay for 3 astral aims but you are only ever using 1...)

my final conclusion is a little bit sad but IMHO I feel that if i want to use them i probably should not use them as GKs...

3 Venerable Space Marine Dreadnought including a primaris lieutenant with a MC Stalker bolt rifle is just 15pts more expensive than just 3 GK Ven Dreads (or 32 when upgrading to a captain)
I lose out on 1/3 Astral Aim casts attempts per turn but i gain reroll wound in 12" range (BT relic Crusader Helm) 1shot str4 ap-2 d2 in 36" and 1CP for a full vanguard detachment (cheapest option GKs have to fill that HQ slot would be a barebone Brotherhood Champ who has 0 synergy with anything and cant even deepstrike for 115pts minimum.

Would this be a worthwile thing to do for people like me who want to get some mileage out of their already bought models or does anyone see a better way ?

Thoughts ?

Rifleman Dreads are gone for now. Honestly I actually like throwing them in Stormravens now as it's less dangerous than it used to be. I recommend trying it once to see if you like it.

Hey everyone! They gave me an email and said we as a community should come up with what we would like to see and email it to them! I'm gonna post it in the proposed rules thread. So please let's put something constructive together so we can email them.

While I'm not the biggest fan of social justice, I know that it is a powerful tool and we already saw that GW bends to it.

Seeing that they are open for dialogue gives me hope that GW is really trying.

I'm waiting for your proposed rules thread and I hope we can work out a nice constructive list together!

So I saw some of the screenshots for the Land Raider Vehicle Design. It mention to add <Chapter> to the Land Raiders. I hope this includes Grey Knights as a chapter option in the CA book. Otherwise I'll be rather sad that we got left out.

Grey Knights is a chapter option

We just got a minor faq change if anyone if interested.

Link?

 daedalus wrote:
Link?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

What was the change exactly?

It says to roll 3d6 and discard the lowest rather than roll 3d6 and pick the two highest.

I don't see in what instance that matter..?.

They changed it so it can work with the Kronos Deepest Shadow stratagem.

Originally I figured that they were fixing the interaction with the tyranid kronos stratagem that makes you roll on 1 dice for a psychic power. However - nope - GW is just bad at everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Strat_N8 wrote:
They changed it so it can work with the Kronos Deepest Shadow stratagem.

How does it fix that though...it says to roll an additional dice and discard the lowest. Where the Nid strategam says to roll with 1 dice. Sorry - but picking the best of 2 dice leaving you with 1 dice....that's not fixing it.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Originally I figured that they were fixing the interaction with the tyranid kronos stratagem that makes you roll on 1 dice for a psychic power. However - nope - GW is just bad at everything.

How does this not fix the interaction? The problem before as far as I can tell is that you had two effects that both said to roll xd6. With the new version you still get some benefit if affected by Kronos rather than having the stratagem completely canceled out.

The argument went that you would call in Sequencing to resolve it, but as it was written it didn't matter in which order you tried to apply the Stratagems.

Applying The Deepest Shadow first meant that you roll only a single dice, resulting in not being able to apply Psychic Channeling because for that you roll three dice instead of two.

And applying Psychic Channeling first you end up having your three dice knocked down to only one dice anyway.

Personally I didn't think Sequencing was appropriate because applying either Stratagem I think would involve actually taking the test and leaving no test for the second to be applied to, but at least now we have a clear way for them to interact.

After experiencing loss after loss lately, I've changed my perspective on the optimal pure-GK list. Drop the Paladins, the GM NDKs, the vehicles, the dreadnoughts. Drop all the expensive multi-wound models. They melt too darn fast to any semi-competitive opponent.

Instead, flood the board with 1-wound marines and characters under 10 wounds to buff them. Your opponent has no choice but to waste his high-dmg weapons on 1-wound marines. Interceptors are the best option, though I like including 3 strike squads for the Battalion CPs.

With this strategy I almost (keyword: almost) beat an Eldar player who ran too many Dark Reapers. It was fun watching him squirm.

Nairul wrote:
After experiencing loss after loss lately, I've changed my perspective on the optimal pure-GK list. Drop the Paladins, the GM NDKs, the vehicles, the dreadnoughts. Drop all the expensive multi-wound models. They melt too darn fast to any semi-competitive opponent.

Instead, flood the board with 1-wound marines and characters under 10 wounds to buff them. Your opponent has no choice but to waste his high-dmg weapons on 1-wound marines. Interceptors are the best option, though I like including 3 strike squads for the Battalion CPs.

With this strategy I almost (keyword: almost) beat an Eldar player who ran too many Dark Reapers. It was fun watching him squirm.

That's consistently been the single most winning strategy for any army in 8th that I've heard of so far. Step 1. Pack more bullets. Step 2: Make those bullets better. Step 3: Drop expensive toys to make more room to repeat step 1.

 daedalus wrote:

Nairul wrote:
After experiencing loss after loss lately, I've changed my perspective on the optimal pure-GK list. Drop the Paladins, the GM NDKs, the vehicles, the dreadnoughts. Drop all the expensive multi-wound models. They melt too darn fast to any semi-competitive opponent.

Instead, flood the board with 1-wound marines and characters under 10 wounds to buff them. Your opponent has no choice but to waste his high-dmg weapons on 1-wound marines. Interceptors are the best option, though I like including 3 strike squads for the Battalion CPs.

With this strategy I almost (keyword: almost) beat an Eldar player who ran too many Dark Reapers. It was fun watching him squirm.

That's consistently been the single most winning strategy for any army in 8th that I've heard of so far. Step 1. Pack more bullets. Step 2: Make those bullets better. Step 3: Drop expensive toys to make more room to repeat step 1.

I'll echo this as well, my most successful iteration of a grey knights list has been spamming power armor. My current list is 55 marines (30 interceptors, 25 strikes), Voldus, and 2 GMDK. I actually like the GMDK since they can take down Knights and other big stuff, I just keep sanctuary/stratagems on them for a 3++ and/or keep them in reserve until they can help kill things or the threats to them are dead.

So the list I just ran and it did well was
2x GMDK, 2x terminator squads, 1x strike squad, min paladin squad, 2x min interceptos, 2x purgation squad (psilencers), and 2 rhinos for dudes to hide inside from the get go.

It just did really really well (tabled by turn 3) a semi competitive nids list. Psilencers are perfect against nids who tend to run a mix of gribbly bugs and a few big ones.

The 2x Grandmasters do a lot of heavy lifting, but the purgation squads were the stars of the game. I lost 2x terminators, 2x paladins (wrong units to pit against a choppy nid HQ) and 2x other power armor. I had turn 1, which was a major part of the game. Going to keep trying this list out.

But the more and more I play the grey Knights, the more and more I want to just buy more power armor to support my 2x Dreadknights.