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AlmightyWalrus wrote: What's people's opinion on the Heavy Incinerator? It's one of few flamer weapons that can hit from Deep Strike. Too expensive for the RNG involved?
Pretty much. It’s 10 more points than a heavy psycannons, but has 1 less strength and 12” less range, and it trades a guaranteed 6 shots for heavy D6 autohits. Since we’re normally mounting them on a BS2+ platform that re-rolls 1s, the autohits don’t make up for the lower number: Heavy 6 on a moving GMDK is 4.67 hits on average, vs 3.5 from the heavy incinerator.
Basically, it’s worse than a heavy psycannon but costs more.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/19 23:17:52
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
Basically, it’s worse than a heavy psycannon but costs more.
To be fair, you could set up a Mad Lib type thing where you say "(name of flamer weapon) is worse than (name of non-flamer weapon) but costs more." and be right more often than you're wrong.
Already did, but that mathhammer doesn't discuss wether the premium paid to have a stronger alpha strike on your Deep Striker is worth it. It also only dealt with MEQ as a target.
The 2+ reroll argument makes sense though. I've only just started working on my GK again in 8th, but people aren't kidding when they say it's a weak book.
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
How about the Vindicator Laser Destroyer from Forgd World? It's T8 and provides anti-T7+ firepower for an okay cost. Could it patch up some of the weaknesses of the book?
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back.
It would help if GKs could take the same vehicle and dreadnaught models that every other SM chapter can take. That's because more options are better than less options.
As a whole the basic premise of how to translate fluff to rules fails miserably in the GK codex.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/20 12:25:13
Starting a GK army right now. Trying to make it work.
I have a bunch of models I got as part of a lot. It's all Terminators / Paladins, about 40 of them. Plus 9 Land Raiders.
I purchased a Dreadknight and have 5 Razorbacks sitting around. Thinking I'm going to do Razorback assault cannon spam with multiple Strike squads, use the DK as a GMDK, and get a couple Stormtalons to make it tougher.
Does this sound remotely workable? All the lists I see right now are spamming DKs and infantry, feels like other tools are being overlooked.
I have a bunch of models I got as part of a lot. It's all Terminators / Paladins, about 40 of them. Plus 9 Land Raiders.
I purchased a Dreadknight and have 5 Razorbacks sitting around. Thinking I'm going to do Razorback assault cannon spam with multiple Strike squads, use the DK as a GMDK, and get a couple Stormtalons to make it tougher.
Does this sound remotely workable? All the lists I see right now are spamming DKs and infantry, feels like other tools are being overlooked.
It may be doable, the issue I always have is that once I start adding tanks I lose a lot of models and no longer have the board presence to win any matches. Our strikes and interceptors aren't any more durable than space marine tacticals really, and they'll get blown to bits. Our terminators cost way too much, and paladins while nice are typically too expensive to spam. This and my experience has led to me taking lots of infantry to try to maximize board coverage to minimize the hurt of each lost squad. Plus with few to no tanks my opponent typically doesn't have a lot to do with the tank killer units they brought so that's nice. I have 2 matches left of an escalation league and I've won 4 tied 1 and lost no matches at all and it's been with effective alpha/beta strikes utilizing interceptors, strike squads and my GMDK+Draigo. I am however adding a stormraven to my next list (1750 points) to deal with knights, primarchs, large tanks, and other flyers (flyers being in my opinion the hardest to deal with.)
That being said maybe tanks would help. I just feel they don't add enough for their cost.
There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov
In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo
He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
Stormravens are great even after chapter approved. Definately go for the multi-meltas, they are the best platform in the game to get in close and melt enemy faces.
That said, after the points hike I always seem to struggle to fit both of my Stormravens into my lists. I remember before chapter approved I could fit them both into even 1500 point armies with no issues, but not so much afterwards. How much did the point cost hike by?
Just remember if you are trying to make GK work well to always include two squads of 10-man GKSS or Interceptors. It cannot be overstated how necessary that Psybolt stratagem is.
After a solid core of 2 GMDK + 2 GKSS, feel free to go crazy.
Quickjager wrote: Just remember if you are trying to make GK work well to always include two squads of 10-man GKSS or Interceptors. It cannot be overstated how necessary that Psybolt stratagem is.
After a solid core of 2 GMDK + 2 GKSS, feel free to go crazy.
This is probably the purest sum total expression of all our collective knowledge and analysis from the last 44 pages.
On the downside, that's 1000pts, and expensive PAGK are exactly as durable as cheaper MEQ.
(You could cast Sanctuary on a unit, but then you're NOT casting on your GMDK, at least in matched play.)
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
I'm not even sure that having 10 storm bolters is worth using 2 CP. Psybolt ammo doesn't really do much against anything with a T of 6-7 (most flyers and lighter vehicles). And against T8 it doubles the amount of potential wounds but the amount of wounds is still pretty insignificant.
40 S4 v T8 Av3+ =1.39 wounds.
40 S5 v T8 AV3+= 2.78 wounds
So is an extra 1 1/2 wounds worth 2 CP? Not to me.
Leo_the_Rat wrote: I'm not even sure that having 10 storm bolters is worth using 2 CP. Psybolt ammo doesn't really do much against anything with a T of 6-7 (most flyers and lighter vehicles). And against T8 it doubles the amount of potential wounds but the amount of wounds is still pretty insignificant.
40 S4 v T8 Av3+ =1.39 wounds.
40 S5 v T8 AV3+= 2.78 wounds
So is an extra 1 1/2 wounds worth 2 CP? Not to me.
Funny you say this. I actually spent my day at work doing some math on this. I'll post it in the next couple minutes.
There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov
In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo
He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
So I was curious if 2 cp was better spent on psybolt or psychic onslaught and this is what I came up with. I mathed out every armor save, and the points per damage considering the full points of the unit. (this may be messy as I'm at work. The math was done somewhat hastily and the formatting may suck)
Storm bolter in rapid fire range with psybolt
Spoiler:
Storm bolter in 10 man strike squad in rf range gets 26.67 hits
Against T3-4 you'll deal 17.78 wounds 2+ save = 5.92 unsaved wounds = .028 damage per point 3+ save = 8.89 unsaved wounds = .042 damage per point 4+ save = 11.85 unsaved wounds = .056 damage per point 5+ save = 14.81 unsaved wounds = .071 damage per point 6+ save = 17.78 unsaved wounds = .085 damage per point -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Against T5 you'll deal 13.33 wounds 2+ save = 4.44 unsaved wounds = .021 damage per point 3+ save = 6.67 unsaved wounds = .032 damage per point 4+ save = 8.89 unsaved wounds = .042 damage per point 5+ save = 11.11 unsaved wounds = .053 damage per point 6+ save = 13.33 unsaved wounds = .063 damage per point -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Against T6-8 you'll deal 8.89 wounds 2+ save = 2.96 unsaved wounds = .014 damage per point 3+ save = 4.44 unsaved wounds = .021 damage per point 4+ save = 5.93 unsaved wounds = .028 damage per point 5+ save = 7.41 unsaved wounds = .035 damage per point 6+ save = 8.89 unsaved wounds = .042 damage per point
Storm bolter not in rapid fire
Spoiler:
Storm bolters in 10 man strike squad not in rf range gets 13.33 hits
Against T3-4 you'll deal 8.89 wounds 2+ save = 2.96 unsaved wounds = .014 damage per point 3+ save = 4.44 unsaved wounds = .021 damage per point 4+ save = 5.92 unsaved wounds = .028 damage per point 5+ save = 7.41 unsaved wounds = .035 damage per point 6+ save = 8.84 unsaved wounds = .042 damage per point -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Against T5 you'll deal 6.66 wounds 2+ save = 2.22 unsaved wounds = .011 damage per point 3+ save = 3.33 unsaved wounds = .016 damage per point 4+ save = 4.44 unsaved wounds = .021 damage per point 5+ save = 5.50 unsaved wounds = .026 damage per point 6+ save = 6.66 unsaved wounds = .032 damage per point -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Against T6-8 you'll deal 4.44 wounds 2+ save = 1.48 unsaved wounds = .007 damage per point 3+ save = 2.22 unsaved wounds = .011 damage per point 4+ save = 2.96 unsaved wounds = .014 damage per point 5+ save = 3.70 unsaved wounds = .018 damage per point 6+ save = 4.44 unsaved wounds = .021 damage per point
Psilencers who have not move
Spoiler:
4 purgations with psilencers (not counting 5th guy with storm bolter) standing still gets 16 hits
Against T3-4 you'll deal 10.67 wounds 2+ save = 3.56 unsaved wounds = 5.34 damage = .047 damage per point 3+ save = 5.33 unsaved wounds = 8 damage = .071 damage per point 4+ save = 7.11 unsaved wounds = 10.67 damage = .094 damage per point 5+ save = 8.89 unsaved wounds = 13.34 damage = .118 damage per point 6+ save = 10.67 unsaved wounds = 16.01 damage = .142 damage per point -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Against T5 you'll deal 8 wounds 2+ save = 2.67 unsaved wounds = 4.01 damage = .035 damage per point 3+ save = 4 unsaved wounds = 6 damage = .053 damage per point 4+ save = 5.33 unsaved wounds = 8 damage = .071 damage per point 5+ save = 6.67 unsaved wounds = 10.01 damage = .089 damage per point 6+ save = 8 unsaved wounds = 12 damage = .106 damage per point -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Against T6-8 you'll deal 5.33 wounds 2+ save = 1.78 unsaved wounds = 2.67 damage = .024 damage per point 3+ save = 2.67 unsaved wounds = 4.01 damage = .035 damage per point 4+ save = 3.56 unsaved wounds = 5.34 damage = .047 damage per point 5+ save = 4.44 unsaved wounds = 6.67 damage = .059 damage per point 6+ save = 5.33 unsaved wounds = 8.00 damage = .071 damage per point
And finally Psilencers that did move
Spoiler:
4 purgations with psilencers (not counting 5th guy with storm bolter) after moving gets 12 hits
Against T3-4 you'll deal 8 wounds 2+ save = 2.67 unsaved wounds = 4.01 damage = .035 damage per point 3+ save = 4 unsaved wounds = 6 damage = .053 damage per point 4+ save = 5.33 unsaved wounds = 8 damage = .070 damage per point 5+ save = 6.67 unsaved wounds = 10.01 damage = .089 damage per point 6+ save = 8 unsaved wounds = 12 damage = .106 damage per point -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Against T5 you'll deal 6 wounds 2+ save = 2 unsaved wounds = 3 damage = .027 damage per point 3+ save = 3 unsaved wounds = 4.5 damage = .040 damage per point 4+ save = 4 unsaved wounds = 6 damage = .053 damage per point 5+ save = 5 unsaved wounds = 7.5 damage = .066 damage per point 6+ save = 6 unsaved wounds = 9 damage = .080 damage per point -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Against T6-8 you'll deal 4 wounds 2+ save = 1.33 unsaved wounds = 2 damage = .018 damage per point 3+ save = 2 unsaved wounds = 3 damage = .027 damage per point 4+ save = 2.67 unsaved wounds = 4.01 damage = .035 damage per point 5+ save = 3.33 unsaved wounds = 5 damage = .044 damage per point 6+ save = 4 unsaved wounds = 6 damage = .053 damage per point
So the squad of 10 with storm bolters in rapid fire does more damage than any of the other options, followed by the squad of 5 with 4 psilencers who didnt move, the squad of 5 with psilencers who did move and then finally a squad of 10 with storm bolters not in rapid fire. I did not add in the one guy with a storm bolter in the psilencer math so that would increase their damage a bit. I did points per damage based on the full cost of the unit. Because of this you can see that if you're looking only for most damage per point using this stratagem the purgation squad takes it every time.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/03/21 23:24:41
There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov
In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo
He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
TBH I wouldn't use either of them for 2 CP. I usually only have 6 CPs per game and would rather use them for +1 Invulns, counter charges and/or the one that lets characters act after they've been "killed".
I typically have 7 CP and I always save 1 for the charcter to be able to fight again. I actually don't use the +1 invuln often. I can't use it on Draigo or GMDK turn 1 because they are in reserves. Turn 2 I want them shooting up Draigo. I could use it on my GMDK but honestly I haven't really needed to. Typically I've got them on the back foot turn 1, so 2 cp for an extra burst of damage is nice. Though I haven't taken a 10 man squad in a while and I'm not a fan of purgators. So I usually use it on my GMDK. 6 shots at strength 8 ap-2 D2 and 12 shots at strength 5 ap-1 Dd3 isn't bad. Worth 2 CP? Maybe, maybe not but in the end I don't typically have much better to use it on.
There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov
In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo
He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
macexor wrote: What do you think is the best allied detachment for GK that is not Astra Militarum?
I'm thinking about Sisters of Battle. If only they weren't all metal...
I’m throwing in a couple inquisitors and Sly Marbo. Terrify seems like it’ll be nice to stop some overwatch and dominate is just a fun power. I’m adding sly marbo in just because I want to use him. I’m also using 4 inquisition acolytes all kitted with plasma guns.
I haven’t seen the point costs on the new knights but I feel like those will be really good for us. They have anti tank which is nice for us and if they are a decent price cost we can take 3 for 3 extra CPs
I am planning a nice fluffy list with tempestus, sisters of battle, and inquisition. I also want to try a list with grey Knights culexus Assassin and sisters of silence for an anti-psyker army.
There is no such thing as a plea of innocence in my court. A plea of innocence is guilty of wasting my time. Guilty. - Lord Inquisitor Fyodor Karamazov
In an Imperium of a million worlds, what is the death of one world in the cause of purity?~Inquisition credo
He who allows the alien to live, shares its crime of existence. ~Inquisitor Apollyon
macexor wrote: What do you think is the best allied detachment for GK that is not Astra Militarum?
I'm thinking about Sisters of Battle. If only they weren't all metal...
Not for long, by recent accounts
---
With my Custodes, I've recently had success with adding tiny imperial soup Vanguard detachments to suit whatever needs I have for that particular army. Will be adding the same to my GK when I pick them up again.
1 or 2 detachments with the following:
HQ:
Primaris Psykers for smite
Greyfax for denies (GK dont really need these 2)
IG Company commander as a warlord for CP regeneration (this guy is worth his weight in gold)
Celestine & co
Elites:
Assassins (a Culexus is great for GK)
Custodes banner guy with Storm shield (he doesn't benefit from being in the main Custodes detachment)
Single Inquisitorial acolytes (8ppm) to fill out the slots and serve as crash dummies in your transports
If you wanna keep it fluffy (and not IG) take just Inquisitors as your HQ's and Assassins/Acolytes for Elites.
Edit: The Custodes banner guy with the 5++ banner might not be a terrible choice if you spam Strike Squads, giving an invuln save to your fragile PAGK dudes is pretty decent, and they can go 4++ on a big unit with Sanctuary.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/03/22 02:44:19
macexor wrote: What do you think is the best allied detachment for GK that is not Astra Militarum?
I'm thinking about Sisters of Battle. If only they weren't all metal...
Not for long, by recent accounts
---
With my Custodes, I've recently had success with adding tiny imperial soup Vanguard detachments to suit whatever needs I have for that particular army. Will be adding the same to my GK when I pick them up again.
1 or 2 detachments with the following:
HQ:
Primaris Psykers for smite
Greyfax for denies (GK dont really need these 2)
IG Company commander as a warlord for CP regeneration (this guy is worth his weight in gold)
Celestine & co
Elites:
Assassins (a Culexus is great for GK)
Custodes banner guy with Storm shield (he doesn't benefit from being in the main Custodes detachment)
Single Inquisitorial acolytes (8ppm) to fill out the slots and serve as crash dummies in your transports
If you wanna keep it fluffy (and not IG) take just Inquisitors as your HQ's and Assassins/Acolytes for Elites.
Edit: The Custodes banner guy with the 5++ banner might not be a terrible choice if you spam Strike Squads, giving an invuln save to your fragile PAGK dudes is pretty decent, and they can go 4++ on a big unit with Sanctuary.
Assassin's and some acolytes with an inqy is a fun fluffy way to run grey knights and effective. I may try this out on my next game to help the grey knights a bit.
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
Had pretty good success this past weekend at a 20-man tourney. Tabelled two Eldar (one with Harlie support, one with Fire Prisms, both with ~15 Reapers and Farseers).
I'm considering swapping out Draigo and some Striker bodies for Celestine and an Apothecary with Soul Glaive, but I'm torn on the change.
Draigo does more damage in CC and has a better invuln (can get to 2++ with the Strat, and can fight after death with the strat); he also provides support to my GK units and is a general beatstick--he ALWAYS hits, and wounds on at least a 3+, or 2+ with HH. However, he's slow and is vulnerable to getting tied up in melee with chaff.
Celestine is insanely survivable, thanks to having 14 wounds and a 2+4++. Her resurrect ability is basically a free Gate, that I usually use to protect my backfield objective against enemy Deep Strikers. (For example, in one game I played this weekend, some Ruststalkers came up and murdered my two Guard squads sitting on an objective. I had to Gate a GMDK back there to deal with it. Whereas with Celestine, she would've just died and popped up back there to kill them all.) But she provides no support for the rest of my army--she's a lone wolf in my list, and I already have a Callidus and a Culexus in there as loners.
Tactically, Draigo drops by a 10man GKSS and the Raven for rerolls fun, and then tries to make a charge. Celestine would faith move forward and prolly kill some chaff, which she's great at, then fly over and try for a vehicle/monster. Without Draigo, I'd have to position a GMDK near the Raven and GKSS for a worse reroll than Draigo. This is bad because the GMDK base size is often difficult to position when he has to triangulate between 1) a charge target, 2) the Raven, and 3) the GKSS. Draigo is much easier to fit into that position. The Apothecary with Soul Glaive is basically a self-healing, baby Draigo. He can survive in combat thanks to restoring wounds to himself. He'll always hit on a 2+ rerolling, and he'll usually wound at S5 rerolling. However, while Draigo can solo anything and do lots of damage (S8 D4 yes please), this guy is best against troops only, while he could get to 4+ wounds on vehicles IF Hammerhand. And his damage is d3 instead of flat 4, booooo. And he can't go in with anything that hits hard, bc he only has a 2+5++, and Sanctuary/Prognosticators will always be on the GMDKs.
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
daedalus wrote: I actually LIKE Mordian because it fits my playstyle, but why did you go with that one? Just for the leadership boost?
Bc those units aren't survivable OR threatening, they're solely for babysitting objectives. That means that they are constantly getting charged by enemy Deep Strikers, so improved OW at least lets them shoot once before they die :/
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
If you're going for the overwatch, then a plasma pistol and plasmagun might be handy if you can justify the points. They're fairly cheap and at 5+ almost worth it. I have had more luck with them than otherwise, anyway.
Of course, that might make them a little more threatening, and then they become a target. Just food for thought.
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