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Knight are not something you take down, you have no reason to.
4 Knights inflict pitiful damage on small targets compared to a 2000 point army, and you can play in a way limits that models lost (let them have fun hunting big targets that cost lots and lots of points). Survive until round 5-6 and tell your opponent that 2 gaunts cap a point better than a knight.

If you really really want to take down a knight, i think that the only real way is using shock guards. A unit of shock guards averages 2,3 mortal wounds+1,3 unsaved wounds on a knight and don't cost much. With t5 and a venompthrope nearby they are not so easily removed.

Spoletta wrote:
Knight are not something you take down, you have no reason to.
4 Knights inflict pitiful damage on small targets compared to a 2000 point army, and you can play in a way limits that models lost (let them have fun hunting big targets that cost lots and lots of points). Survive until round 5-6 and tell your opponent that 2 gaunts cap a point better than a knight.

If you really really want to take down a knight, i think that the only real way is using shock guards. A unit of shock guards averages 2,3 mortal wounds+1,3 unsaved wounds on a knight and don't cost much. With t5 and a venompthrope nearby they are not so easily removed.

Yeah but when you have a renegade knight list in front of you with duel battlecannons that can remove a unit of 20 genestealers in one turn of shooting you aren't going to have any models left by turn 6

Eldercaveman wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Knight are not something you take down, you have no reason to.
4 Knights inflict pitiful damage on small targets compared to a 2000 point army, and you can play in a way limits that models lost (let them have fun hunting big targets that cost lots and lots of points). Survive until round 5-6 and tell your opponent that 2 gaunts cap a point better than a knight.

If you really really want to take down a knight, i think that the only real way is using shock guards. A unit of shock guards averages 2,3 mortal wounds+1,3 unsaved wounds on a knight and don't cost much. With t5 and a venompthrope nearby they are not so easily removed.

Yeah but when you have a renegade knight list in front of you with duel battlecannons that can remove a unit of 20 genestealers in one turn of shooting you aren't going to have any models left by turn 6

That knight costs no less than 524 points and requires 4 turns of shooting to remove 20 genestealers.

One rule clarification here: if my genestealer, my melee fexes and my swarmlord hit and wound 3 times each, can they kill only 3 orks each?
How does that damage system works now against units with 1 w?

 Emicrania wrote:
One rule clarification here: if my genestealer, my melee fexes and my swarmlord hit and wound 3 times each, can they kill only 3 orks each?
How does that damage system works now against units with 1 w?

excess dmg is lost

Spoletta wrote:

Eldercaveman wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Knight are not something you take down, you have no reason to.
4 Knights inflict pitiful damage on small targets compared to a 2000 point army, and you can play in a way limits that models lost (let them have fun hunting big targets that cost lots and lots of points). Survive until round 5-6 and tell your opponent that 2 gaunts cap a point better than a knight.

If you really really want to take down a knight, i think that the only real way is using shock guards. A unit of shock guards averages 2,3 mortal wounds+1,3 unsaved wounds on a knight and don't cost much. With t5 and a venompthrope nearby they are not so easily removed.

Yeah but when you have a renegade knight list in front of you with duel battlecannons that can remove a unit of 20 genestealers in one turn of shooting you aren't going to have any models left by turn 6

That knight costs no less than 524 points and requires 4 turns of shooting to remove 20 genestealers.

Except when you have 2 of them, a warden loadout and a paper in loadout, that is a straight tabling.

Here's a question for you guys: what're the thoughts on hormagaunts so far? They've been fine as a tie up unit that gets annoying as they lock up units, but their danage output for me has just been dreadful. Last game I sent them into 4 Scion command squads and while they were good for tying them up, they killed a total of 3 before my opponent stepped back and blasted them with other units. I've been thinking of dropping them for devilgants honestly.

Am I missing something, why are people so hard on the Tyrannofex? It is one hell of an area denial unit. If it remains still, it can fire ALL of its weapons twice! Taking the fleshborer hive, that's 40 shots, str 5, at 18" on a very tough model at (very slightly over 200 pnts). I can see it being very useful sitting on or near an objective, holding the center or a flank, guarding other shooting units, etc. I suppose you could have considerably more gaunts with str 4 18" shots for the same amount of points, but the Tyrannofex is toughness 8 and a 3+ save (easily 2+ if you can get it some cover).

Also, I know it has been said before, but holy hormagaunts! 30 for 150 base, with those attacks and movement (and the change to wounding) makes them...enticing.


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 jifel wrote:
Here's a question for you guys: what're the thoughts on hormagaunts so far? They've been fine as a tie up unit that gets annoying as they lock up units, but their danage output for me has just been dreadful. Last game I sent them into 4 Scion command squads and while they were good for tying them up, they killed a total of 3 before my opponent stepped back and blasted them with other units. I've been thinking of dropping them for devilgants honestly.

How many hormagaunts?

 Grumblewartz wrote:
Am I missing something, why are people so hard on the Tyrannofex? It is one hell of an area denial unit. If it remains still, it can fire ALL of its weapons twice! Taking the fleshborer hive, that's 40 shots, str 5, at 18" on a very tough model at (very slightly over 200 pnts). I can see it being very useful sitting on or near an objective, holding the center or a flank, guarding other shooting units, etc. I suppose you could have considerably more gaunts with str 4 18" shots for the same amount of points, but the Tyrannofex is toughness 8 and a 3+ save (easily 2+ if you can get it some cover).

Because a hive Tfex costs the same as 53 Termagants which not only get 13 more shots (33 more if they move) but also have 39 more wounds. Yes they have a much lower toughness but they have nearly 2.5x more wounds.

If you take a Rupture cannon it is more expensive than an Exocrine and shoots less shots. You do get the double hit bonus but unless you want to spend all your CP on it an Exocrine is just more reliable damage.

Loopstah wrote:

Because a hive Tfex costs the same as 53 Termagants which not only get 13 more shots (33 more if they move) but also have 39 more wounds. Yes they have a much lower toughness but they have nearly 2.5x more wounds.
If you take a Rupture cannon it is more expensive than an Exocrine and shoots less shots. You do get the double hit bonus but unless you want to spend all your CP on it an Exocrine is just more reliable damage.

I agree that for area denial Termagants are superior. The rupture cannon Tfex is the only version of the unit that I see use for. The preferred targets for Exorines and Tyranofexes overlap reasonably well, so you get some synergy of you run both.

Thing is, in order get value from either one, you need two of them. A pair of tfexes and a pair of Exocrines puts out a lot of damage (and expects a double hit one a turn, assuming you didn't move), but is extremely expensive and needs a synapse babysitter.

I watched a game on Youtube last night. Tyranids vs Ultras. The Smurfs looked to be quasi tuned to deal with assault Nids, and the Nids were missing some piecec (No Venos) But it was a good example of play. The Smurfs blunted the Nids by castling up, with a scirmish line of marine scouts, and basicly had 3 units of Devastators (Lots of missles and Lascannons) a unit of Bikers (Grav spam) and an Apothacary. Plus Girlyman for the Buff Aura, and Monster slaying.

The Smurfs put all of his fire into the Hormagaunts, so he clearly considered them scarey (x30 Brood) The Mawloc was very effective vs the Castle (just like prior Eds) but was only a single. A pair would have massively destroyed the fire base. One thing I've noticed so far is folks are not fully using Command Points both tacticaly, and Strategicaly.

One thing we Nids can do is reserve a large portion of our force (50% max by rule) possably forcing our foe to deploy and allow us to counter deploy. For example my Theoryhammer Brigade can reserve More than half my units, so even though I will almost always go second, my flexable response may well blunt the Alpha.

Add in that I can spend CPs like a drunken sailer, and I Should do very well vs most Tourney builds (Take on all comers) The main competition to this build is AMs who almost have no choice but to run a Brigade. Platoons don't exist any more so spamming squads is just how they have to build.

Mech heavy maneuver currently looks like the "best build" for them right now. It's possable that Baneblade based SHs will come to have a place as well. In any case its early days still, and the "meta" is still in flux.


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One "nice" thing is if Shadow swords start showing up in lists, Knights will become a rare beast, certainly Knight spam will become rare.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
One possable use for a "classic" Acid spray Tyrannofex may be as a line breaker, splashing acid on a scirmish line follow up with a charge may become a useful thing. (A astra mill "scirmish line" might be as many as 50 conscrips )

pinecone77 wrote:



Automatically Appended Next Post:
One possable use for a "classic" Acid spray Tyrannofex may be as a line breaker, splashing acid on a scirmish line follow up with a charge may become a useful thing. (A astra mill "scirmish line" might be as many as 50 conscrips )

Right now I envision doing that with a Trygon and 30x devilgaunts, but I can see the Tyrannofex version being playable.

I see a large amount of people using trygons as a delivery unit for genestealers. Is that method better than having a genestealers cult detachment using ambush with a Primus or patriarch?

PUFNSTUF wrote:
I see a large amount of people using trygons as a delivery unit for genestealers. Is that method better than having a genestealers cult detachment using ambush with a Primus or patriarch?

If I remember, purestrain stealers cost something like 6 points more per model. Across a full squad you can nearly get a "free" trygon out of the deal. Basically, 60-80 points for a trygon isn't a bad deal if you do it with nid stealers instead of GSC purestrains.

IMO the purestrains are bad for anything but a full cult army. Regular 'stealers are going to be either 6 points less (assuming adrenal glands) or 2 points less (assuming adrenal + toxin sacs) and while the purestrains can cult ambush it isn't actually very good for them since only one of the six results is beneficial beyond a normal deep strike.


On a separate note, anyone have thoughts on Toxicrenes or Maleceptors?

 Carnage43 wrote:

PUFNSTUF wrote:
I see a large amount of people using trygons as a delivery unit for genestealers. Is that method better than having a genestealers cult detachment using ambush with a Primus or patriarch?

If I remember, purestrain stealers cost something like 6 points more per model. Across a full squad you can nearly get a "free" trygon out of the deal. Basically, 60-80 points for a trygon isn't a bad deal if you do it with nid stealers instead of GSC purestrains.

I suppose running one of each could be a way to bypass the "Rule of one" as they pull off of differant tables. Broodlord plus Hive Stealers, plus Patriarch and Purestrains might be a good "one, two punch".

The biggest issue with the Tfex isn't the number of shots. It's the range. With a 18" range and hoping to not move before shooting is a good way to never see the bonus pay off.

The exocrine has a 36" range. Half the table. almost the entire table if you deploy it up front. Getting the double shots with the exocrine is significantly easier and denies much larger fields of view for both it;s desired targets and small to medium groups of infantry or even large blobs that don't want to risk an onslaught of 2 dmg str 7 shots.

Yeah the new "meta" is hard to know. But in a "standard" set up don't we line up 18" apart? if so I could Double Acid Spray a hole on a scirmish line, then advance, charge etc a Brood of Hormies through the gap( or just slam into the unit if it was x50 Conscripts), and follow with the Tyranno. It would take a real fierce Alpha to scrub it off the table, so the remainder of my forces should be fairly intact. (I hope )

pinecone77 wrote:
Yeah the new "meta" is hard to know. But in a "standard" set up don't we line up 18" apart? if so I could Double Acid Spray a hole on a scirmish line, then advance, charge etc a Brood of Hormies through the gap( or just slam into the unit if it was x50 Conscripts), and follow with the Tyranno. It would take a real fierce Alpha to scrub it off the table, so the remainder of my forces should be fairly intact. (I hope )

No, the standard is 24" apart. Each sides deployment is 12" from the center line. 18" is too short to accomplish much of anything without moving. Devourers are 18". They were so good on the flyrant because of it's mobility. The arguments for a Tfex are all based on it sitting still and firing twice. It was hard enough keeping a Exocrine from moving around half the game when the bioplasmic cannon was a 24" range. Now that it's 36" they are sitting in a real sweet spot. But the Tfex is trying to do the same with 6" less then the Exocrine had last edition.

Well...heck. I guess the only way is to pod it in, and I'm not sure that's such a good plan. Otherwise I need to move+advance (Psycher powerz? ) then likely stand and spray, the Hive might work better because of pure rate of fire. But my beloved Tyranno might have to warm the bench.

pinecone77 wrote:
Well...heck. I guess the only way is to pod it in, and I'm not sure that's such a good plan. Otherwise I need to move+advance (Psycher powerz? ) then likely stand and spray, the Hive might work better because of pure rate of fire. But my beloved Tyranno might have to warm the bench.

Being podded in counts as moving. So you drop it in at 9" fire 20 shots. Enemy models either advance and charge (tying it up in melee and thus preventing it from shooting) or start retreating away and shooting it with longer range weaponry.

Tfexes are not themselves terribly bad. But the best gun for that fire twice rule is also one of the least likely to ever get to use it. It's rough but true.

 Grumblewartz wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jifel wrote:
Here's a question for you guys: what're the thoughts on hormagaunts so far? They've been fine as a tie up unit that gets annoying as they lock up units, but their danage output for me has just been dreadful. Last game I sent them into 4 Scion command squads and while they were good for tying them up, they killed a total of 3 before my opponent stepped back and blasted them with other units. I've been thinking of dropping them for devilgants honestly.

How many hormagaunts?

40 Hormagaunts total, in 2 units of 20. I used a Magus for no overwatch on the squad I charged and then hit that and consolidated into 3 more. A total of 15 were able to swing because a few stayed back for synapse. Those 15 killed 3 total with their 3 attacks.


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I guess my problem with the TFex personally is that he's not an Exocrine. Weight of fire is good but with less range and no rend won't get the ideal target often. Flamer samething. Riptide Cannon fits the roll best but isn't as good vs a variety of targets. And exocrine is decent anti tank or medium infantry with s good range.

Eldercaveman wrote:

Spoletta wrote:

Spoiler:

Eldercaveman wrote:

Spoletta wrote:
Knight are not something you take down, you have no reason to.
4 Knights inflict pitiful damage on small targets compared to a 2000 point army, and you can play in a way limits that models lost (let them have fun hunting big targets that cost lots and lots of points). Survive until round 5-6 and tell your opponent that 2 gaunts cap a point better than a knight.

If you really really want to take down a knight, i think that the only real way is using shock guards. A unit of shock guards averages 2,3 mortal wounds+1,3 unsaved wounds on a knight and don't cost much. With t5 and a venompthrope nearby they are not so easily removed.

Yeah but when you have a renegade knight list in front of you with duel battlecannons that can remove a unit of 20 genestealers in one turn of shooting you aren't going to have any models left by turn 6

That knight costs no less than 524 points and requires 4 turns of shooting to remove 20 genestealers.

Except when you have 2 of them, a warden loadout and a paper in loadout, that is a straight tabling.

And yet those 4 knight will still fail on average in removing 20 genestealers in a single turn. Even less in following turns due to damage degradation (and nids possess all the weight of fire needed to remove 13 wounds from a t8 3+ target).

That include fighting in two ranks? How many did he have in that unit?

This was one unit of 20 that charged, the other 20 were off dealing with someone else. 15 of 20 were able to swing all told, and the damage output was just negligible. And it's not even statistically that far out of the norm. 30 Hormagaunts attacks should kill a bit over 4, so 3 is only mildly unlucky.

Genestealers just seem like a much better unit, point-for-point.

12 Stealers vs 28 H-Gaunts; the stealers seems to win-out just with rends alone.

I guess they work well (H-Gaunts) against the right targets and for different reasons, speed, screening etc.

Razerous wrote:
Genestealers just seem like a much better unit, point-for-point.

12 Stealers vs 28 H-Gaunts; the stealers seems to win-out just with rends alone.

I guess they work well (H-Gaunts) against the right targets and for different reasons, speed, screening etc.

Spitballing here as I don't know but is it not too tie things up, and if you say charge genestealers and horms in and the stealers wipe the unit out the horms can use their charge distance and a further 6 inch pile in with their special rule to leap frog straight to another unit massively diminishing the enemies ability to respond to you

I think genestealers probably take the cake for most improved unit in our codex. Getting a 5++, having the ability to have a perfectly reliable turn 1 drop, and roughly a 50% chance to make the charge with the CP re-roll. Running and charging...an extra 2" movement every turn...don't think anyone would have predicted all of that in their wildest dreams.

I think we can do turn 1 assault better than a lot of other armies. We can do threat overload and follow up with it extremely well. To the point where I think that will influence the meta to counter us

I also prefer Stealers. A good thing to note is that you can only swing at units you actually charge, so if you charge one unit and the consolidate into 3 more you can only attack the unit you actually charged so Hormies will be lots of wasted attacks.

Used a scan so I don't have the page number, but it's in the fight phase rules.

 jifel wrote:
I also prefer Stealers. A good thing to note is that you can only swing at units you actually charge, so if you charge one unit and the consolidate into 3 more you can only attack the unit you actually charged so Hormies will be lots of wasted attacks.

Used a scan so I don't have the page number, but it's in the fight phase rules.

In my head the Horms aren't there to kill they are there to distract and tie up until the killyness arrives that being a Swarmlord and a bunch of stealers.