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babelfish wrote:
I got my first few games in over the weekend. I didn't follow the main rules leaks as closely as I did the 'nid leaks, so there were a number of rules errors, but it all worked out.

First impressions of 8th: faster, smoother gameplay, not perfect but significantly improved from 7th.

First impressions of various Tyranids:

Exocrines are absurd. I can see exocrine + Biovore firebases being a solid core to a number of builds.

Impaler Cannon Hive Guard are surprisingly decent at killing non horde infantry. I spent the weekend shooting at various Elves, and I got better use thinning out heavy weapons and the like than I did shooting vehicles. Ignoring cover and -2 AP matters a lot in this edition.

Trygons and Hive Tyrants are frail, but it doesn't matter as much as I thought it would because they only need two turns to make an impact on the game.

I want to field an Exocrine now.. I had nearly convinced myself not to

Exocrine seem terrible...half the shots and hits on 5's if they move? No thanks.

Why would you ever move??

12 shots that hit on 3's and do 2 damage a piece, with a good save mod that can be fired at 2 different units? Best anti-elite infantry tool we've ever had. Wipes up terminators like there's no tomorrow

 luke1705 wrote:
Why would you ever move??

12 shots that hit on 3's and do 2 damage a piece, with a good save mod that can be fired at 2 different units? Best anti-elite infantry tool we've ever had. Wipes up terminators like there's no tomorrow

Compare this to a Trygon - it gets similar to 12 attacks (every turn, over 2 assault phases). Much shorter ranged but much more mobile (more so first, then some later on).

Thoughts, worthy comparison?

Gotta get there first. A 36" threat bubble that can't be stopped with a screening unit is different than hoping your opponent doesn't bubble wrap properly.

Also, it's not often that you're going to send the two units against the same targets. D6 and 2 damage might seem comparable (send them after multi wound units with a good armor save) but dedicated assault units with a good save also tend to have a good invulnerable save, and weapons that can deal with a Trygon in CC.

I've found that he's often better for trying to vehicle hunt (they don't hit back so well) or chopping a decently big character like the Yncarne. But he's definitely fragile and it comes down to who swings first a fair amount of the time.

 luke1705 wrote:
Why would you ever move??

12 shots that hit on 3's and do 2 damage a piece, with a good save mod that can be fired at 2 different units? Best anti-elite infantry tool we've ever had. Wipes up terminators like there's no tomorrow

I play on tables with NOVA line of sight blockers, movement is going to be required to get shots off. I rather have two units of Hive Guard which can hide/ignore cover with similar damage output.

50% of the shots at -2 BS is an outrageous penalty to pay for shifting over a few inches.

Set up with the best sight lines you can and they'll come to you eventually if your positioning is good. No board has THAT much BLOS terrain with 36" range

Just going through the new rules now, been waiting to get into 8th, starting now, just gonna post my thoughts as I go through it

But before I begin, just wow, on Carnifexes

you mean my 6x Dakkafexes just went from 900 points to 580 pts??

Thats a massive improvement

Even with Twin-Linked removed, point for point Dakkafexes now have a (very) slightly more efficient hit rate. Except now for the same amount of points you get 150% the amount of Carnifexes on the field that they have to deal with. And being able to turn into individual units makes them even better. Wasn't expecting buffs to this model, so I'm pleasantly surprised.

They are still not significantly faster than before however, so no matter how strong Claws are I'm thinking that's still a gimmick for killing vehicles.



No more Master of Ambush = no more free wins on a 1/3, but a more reliable Psyker table for Onslaught. However, no more solo Zoanthrope squads. Psykers still look good though. A squad of Zopes in a Pod looks like it's real threat again, but at 300 pts for a roll at D6 mortal wounds anywhere on the field it may or may not be worthwhile. Depends how tanky that profile is actually gonna be for them. Biovores seem a lot better than that (another winner in the new dex).

Exocrine seems strong. That improved range and firepower potential makes them a NICE unit.



Trygon actually works now, and is costed well, even though he only works for troops, that is going to have some great builds.
Mawloc seems to hold his role as a big fat cheap disruption unit, and this time with added consistency.

Lictors seem sick and will work nicely in conjunction with anything playing for assault, and will either help win an assault or help catch a unit.





Is it just me or did they manage to make the Tyrannofex even WORSE damn. Looks unbelievably bad now, unless I'm missing something. Oh damn and put the Tervigon right up next to it, although it wasn't even playable before so no change there, at least TFex had a niche tho.


Assault Hive Tyrants seem like they will eat everything alive in combat, I'm unsure of Flyer rules at the moment so not sure if you best off walking them with guards or not. Swarmlord is another winner.

Terms/Horms/Stealers/Warriors all seem much better and playable now.



It seems we have the same issue as last dex - all the best stuff is in Heavy Support, and Fast Attack slot is still borderline useless. Is FOC chart manipulation still a thing?


Anyway, give me your feedback on my thoughts, I haven't read through this thread properly at all this is just my initial opinions, tell me where you think I'm right or wrong. Good to see you all again

 SHUPPET wrote:


It seems we have the same issue as last dex - all the best stuff is in Heavy Support, and Fast Attack slot is still borderline useless. Is FOC chart manipulation still a thing?

There are different detachments now, including one that lets you take up to 6 heavy support slots. Of course you have to pay the HQ tax.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Just going through the new rules now, been waiting to get into 8th, starting now, just gonna post my thoughts as I go through it

Spoiler:

But before I begin, just wow, on Carnifexes

you mean my 6x Dakkafexes just went from 900 points to 580 pts??

Thats a massive improvement

Even with Twin-Linked removed, point for point Dakkafexes now have a (very) slightly more efficient hit rate. Except now for the same amount of points you get 150% the amount of Carnifexes on the field that they have to deal with. And being able to turn into individual units makes them even better. Wasn't expecting buffs to this model, so I'm pleasantly surprised.

They are still not significantly faster than before however, so no matter how strong Claws are I'm thinking that's still a gimmick for killing vehicles.



No more Master of Ambush = no more free wins on a 1/3, but a more reliable Psyker table for Onslaught. However, no more solo Zoanthrope squads. Psykers still look good though. A squad of Zopes in a Pod looks like it's real threat again, but at 300 pts for a roll at D6 mortal wounds anywhere on the field it may or may not be worthwhile. Depends how tanky that profile is actually gonna be for them. Biovores seem a lot better than that (another winner in the new dex).

Exocrine seems strong. That improved range and firepower potential makes them a NICE unit.



Trygon actually works now, and is costed well, even though he only works for troops, that is going to have some great builds.
Mawloc seems to hold his role as a big fat cheap disruption unit, and this time with added consistency.

Lictors seem sick and will work nicely in conjunction with anything playing for assault, and will either help win an assault or help catch a unit.





Is it just me or did they manage to make the Tyrannofex even WORSE damn. Looks unbelievably bad now, unless I'm missing something. Oh damn and put the Tervigon right up next to it, although it wasn't even playable before so no change there, at least TFex had a niche tho.


Assault Hive Tyrants seem like they will eat everything alive in combat, I'm unsure of Flyer rules at the moment so not sure if you best off walking them with guards or not. Swarmlord is another winner.

Terms/Horms/Stealers/Warriors all seem much better and playable now



It seems we have the same issue as last dex - all the best stuff is in Heavy Support, and Fast Attack slot is still borderline useless. Is FOC chart manipulation still a thing?


Anyway, give me your feedback on my thoughts, I haven't read through this thread properly at all this is just my initial opinions, tell me where you think I'm right or wrong. Good to see you all again

One thing i was thinking about with the T-fex is that 3+ to hit is not too bad, and could use a command point to reroll a miss for the 2 hits, doing 2d6 wounds to a target i think could be pretty... deccent if a bit pricey

I think it is pretty clear that a Monster with two or more scything talons only get +1 A. The text says exactly "with two or more pairs of scything talons".

Overwatch:
Have you recognised that 8 inch flamethrowers are useless for overwatch against deep striking units, which instantly charge? They just have 8 inch and the unit will charge from 9+ inch away!

Tervigon:
Also a nice idea if you really want to bind something in melee to reject shooting: Put a Tervigon in a Tyrannocyte. It has to stay 9+ inch away, but can instantly spawn 10 Termagants. These just have to be within 6 inch of him but do not have to obey the restrictions of the 9 inch from deep strike. So you can put them 3+ inch away from the enemy unit and charge with high probability.

How good are Carnifexes with upgraded Deathspitters?

My Devourer ones need updating (since they were gutted lol) but I'm thinking of including one in my 750 pt or so army to test the waters again.

Tyranids Shrikes and Warriors/Prime too )and a bunch of Gargoyles and Termagants with some Biovores in the rear for support).

Scytals very clearly give multiple extra attacks RAW. Look at each weapon I.e. each pair. Lets call them pair a b and c

First pair a: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair a.

Next pair b: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see a and c. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair b.

Last pair c: qualifier - if you have more than one pair... Has 3, see b and a. Check. Effect: than +1a with this weapon. I.e. +1a that must be made with pair c.


Each pair is its own weapon with the same rule. When a hive tyrant buys deathspitters x2 its not 2 guns that shoot 3 times its 2 guns that shoot 3 times EACH.

Just because you buy 2 or 3 pairs together does not mean their weapon profiles combine.

This might not be RAI, and GW are terrible at writing so it is possible they screwed this up. But RAW you get an extra attack for each pair so long as you have more than 1.

I can understand why you get this idea. To me it is clear what the intention of scything talons was.
When you think about it as a programmer, it is also quite clear.

if Scything Talons > 1
add +1 Attack

 Astmeister wrote:
I can understand why you get this idea. To me it is clear what the intention of scything talons was.
When you think about it as a programmer, it is also quite clear.

if Scything Talons > 1
add +1 Attack

Except thats not what it would be as a program.

As a program it would be a series of if/than statements on each weapon.

If ScyTal >1 Than +1 attack with Scytal.
That little script is not on the model. It's on the Scytal.

You need to remember that the rule says "With this weapon". There is huge difference between "If the barer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack each time it fights" and "If the barer has more than one pair of scything talons, it can make 1 additional attack with this weapon each time it fights".

The first statement increases your attack characteristic by 1 regardless of the number of pairs you have so long as the number is greater than 1. The second statement has each weapon provide an additional attack with that weapon and thus provides an additional attack for every weapon that has that rule.

You are right. This is however highly complicated to get multiple attacks out of multiple weapons.
The text would be more clear with saying:
For every pair of scything talons beyond the first, make 1 additional Attack with them.

On a sidenote:
In the above caluclation a Carnifex has 6 Attacks with 2 pairs of ST. Could he exchange all of them for Thresher Scythe attacks or does he have to do the "2 additional" attacks with ST?

Carnifex has 4 attacks base. With 2 pairs of ScyTal it would have 1 attack with ScyTal A and 1 attack with ScyTal B and then 4 base attacks to use with whatever weapon/s it wants.

This means those 2 additional attacks reroll 1s to hit (because thats what ScyTal do).

I think it's written that way for 2 reasons 1) hormagaunts get no additional attacks (unlike chainswords which just give an extra attack). 2) It gives you a reason to want multiple sets of Scytal instead of grabbing crushing or rending claws.

Tyran wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:


It seems we have the same issue as last dex - all the best stuff is in Heavy Support, and Fast Attack slot is still borderline useless. Is FOC chart manipulation still a thing?

There are different detachments now, including one that lets you take up to 6 heavy support slots. Of course you have to pay the HQ tax.

Spearhead detachment looks perfect for us.



Which HQ are you guys looking the look of the most, and why?

And how is AT these days, I hear we are punished a lot less by our lack of high Strength weaponry nowadays?

 Lance845 wrote:
Carnifex has 4 attacks base. With 2 pairs of ScyTal it would have 1 attack with ScyTal A and 1 attack with ScyTal B and then 4 base attacks to use with whatever weapon/s it wants.

This means those 2 additional attacks reroll 1s to hit (because thats what ScyTal do).

I think it's written that way for 2 reasons 1) hormagaunts get no additional attacks (unlike chainswords which just give an extra attack). 2) It gives you a reason to want multiple sets of Scytal instead of grabbing crushing or rending claws.

Okay. That does not really answer my question, if the Carnifex can also exchange the 2 additional attacks via the ST for the tail attacks.

Hormagants would not get additional attacks from my proposed wording. Also if you calculate a carnifex with 2x ST against one with Crushing Claws, the ST version wins very often even if you just let him have +1 A. If he really has +2 attacks there is almost no reason to take Crushing Claws.

 Astmeister wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
Carnifex has 4 attacks base. With 2 pairs of ScyTal it would have 1 attack with ScyTal A and 1 attack with ScyTal B and then 4 base attacks to use with whatever weapon/s it wants.

This means those 2 additional attacks reroll 1s to hit (because thats what ScyTal do).

I think it's written that way for 2 reasons 1) hormagaunts get no additional attacks (unlike chainswords which just give an extra attack). 2) It gives you a reason to want multiple sets of Scytal instead of grabbing crushing or rending claws.

Okay. That does not really answer my question, if the Carnifex can also exchange the 2 additional attacks via the ST for the tail attacks.

Hormagants would not get additional attacks from my proposed wording. Also if you calculate a carnifex with 2x ST against one with Crushing Claws, the ST version wins very often even if you just let him have +1 A. If he really has +2 attacks there is almost no reason to take Crushing Claws.

1) No. You cannot exchange the extra attacks. The rule specifies you get that attack with that weapon. It has to happen with that weapon.

2) Crushing claws are better against different targets. A fex with crushing claws is str 12. You would wound up to t6 on a 2+ and basically everything else on a 3+. If you can get a bonus to hit (like old one eyes aura) to counter the -1 to hit on the claws they can easily be better than the scytal that would be wounding t6 on a 4+ and everything tougher on a 5+.

There is a good reason to want to pick and choose between claws and scyths.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also your rewrite of the rule does a different thing. Your wording makes it so 2 pairs gives you 1 additional attack and 3 pairs gives you 2.

What they have written gives you 2 additional attacks for 2 pairs and 3 for 3.

You are cutting out an attack.

Anyone been using a Broodlord as a Warlord in armies without Genestealers? He's a Warlord that can hide, and a Synapse dude that can pop up anywhere he's needed to reinforce control if one dies.

The only other Nid character that can hide is the Prime but I'm not sure if he's that useful.

 Astmeister wrote:

Tervigon:
Also a nice idea if you really want to bind something in melee to reject shooting: Put a Tervigon in a Tyrannocyte. It has to stay 9+ inch away, but can instantly spawn 10 Termagants. These just have to be within 6 inch of him but do not have to obey the restrictions of the 9 inch from deep strike. So you can put them 3+ inch away from the enemy unit and charge with high probability.

That's a kinda neat trick

babelfish wrote:
Raveners and Crones are underwhelming, but Harpies are good. We don't have much S9 and the ability to hand out that mortal wound is important. Shrikes look like they have potential.

I disagree babelfish, I think Raveners are insanely good. M12, A4, with rending claws, and they can pop up anywhere and fire their deathspitters, (essentially heavy bolters with 18" range). A unit of 6 pumping out 18 ST5, -1....ouch!

Should probably keep the YMDC stuff in YMDC, as important as it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:
Anyone been using a Broodlord as a Warlord in armies without Genestealers? He's a Warlord that can hide, and a Synapse dude that can pop up anywhere he's needed to reinforce control if one dies.

The only other Nid character that can hide is the Prime but I'm not sure if he's that useful.

I mean...why would you not use Genestealers?

He is good but I'm still a fan of Swarmy as a warlord. Much more durable so long as you bring his friends to give him some ablative wounds

 luke1705 wrote:
Should probably keep the YMDC stuff in YMDC, as important as it is.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:
Anyone been using a Broodlord as a Warlord in armies without Genestealers? He's a Warlord that can hide, and a Synapse dude that can pop up anywhere he's needed to reinforce control if one dies.

The only other Nid character that can hide is the Prime but I'm not sure if he's that useful.

I mean...why would you not use Genestealers?

He is good but I'm still a fan of Swarmy as a warlord. Much more durable so long as you bring his friends to give him some ablative wounds

Just getting started, I was looking at getting the Tyranid Swarm box, which has more than enough Troops that I was wondering if I could get by without buying Genestealers. It's a massive savings and also 30% off at my FLGS, so even more massive.

Lord Cornilius wrote:

babelfish wrote:
Raveners and Crones are underwhelming, but Harpies are good. We don't have much S9 and the ability to hand out that mortal wound is important. Shrikes look like they have potential.

I disagree babelfish, I think Raveners are insanely good. M12, A4, with rending claws, and they can pop up anywhere and fire their deathspitters, (essentially heavy bolters with 18" range). A unit of 6 pumping out 18 ST5, -1....ouch!

Raveners are definitely the cream of the FA slot. 30 pts for what they are is pretty nice. But you are paying a premium for their mobility and their ability to assault. They are 9x S5 shots for 95 pts, Dakkafex is 12xS6 for 95 points. You'd have to run multiple units to make sure enough make it to combat where they can properly win back their points, because they are definitely still glass cannons, one unit arriving by itself will get eaten alive.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Lord Cornilius wrote:

babelfish wrote:
Raveners and Crones are underwhelming, but Harpies are good. We don't have much S9 and the ability to hand out that mortal wound is important. Shrikes look like they have potential.

I disagree babelfish, I think Raveners are insanely good. M12, A4, with rending claws, and they can pop up anywhere and fire their deathspitters, (essentially heavy bolters with 18" range). A unit of 6 pumping out 18 ST5, -1....ouch!

Raveners are definitely the cream of the FA slot. 30 pts for what they are is pretty nice. But you are paying a premium for their mobility and their ability to assault. They are 9x S5 shots for 95 pts, Dakkafex is 12xS6 for 95 points. You'd have to run multiple units to make sure enough make it to combat where they can properly win back their points, because they are definitely still glass cannons, one unit arriving by itself will get eaten alive.

Yeah but the Carnifex has to walk across the table (I don't think a Mucolid by himself is that good) and can be significantly weakened by multi-damage shooting. Raveners are always guaranteed a shooting phase and maybe charge attempt against anything that doesn't have "Interceptor", which right now is really just Tau, Coteaz, and Deathmarks afaik.

Requizen wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:


Yeah but the Carnifex has to walk across the table (I don't think a Mucolid by himself is that good) and can be significantly weakened by multi-damage shooting. Raveners are always guaranteed a shooting phase and maybe charge attempt against anything that doesn't have "Interceptor", which right now is really just Tau, Coteaz, and Deathmarks afaik.

I also think that Raveners have potential against horde armies. But I like them at the moment with Spine Fists. They can be shot in CC and also have a high number of shots, while being not as expensive as deathspitters. They just cost very much and I would thus just use them when the Red Horror is also around.

However a Carnifex is not weakened by damage at all.

Requizen wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

Lord Cornilius wrote:

babelfish wrote:
Raveners and Crones are underwhelming, but Harpies are good. We don't have much S9 and the ability to hand out that mortal wound is important. Shrikes look like they have potential.

I disagree babelfish, I think Raveners are insanely good. M12, A4, with rending claws, and they can pop up anywhere and fire their deathspitters, (essentially heavy bolters with 18" range). A unit of 6 pumping out 18 ST5, -1....ouch!

Raveners are definitely the cream of the FA slot. 30 pts for what they are is pretty nice. But you are paying a premium for their mobility and their ability to assault. They are 9x S5 shots for 95 pts, Dakkafex is 12xS6 for 95 points. You'd have to run multiple units to make sure enough make it to combat where they can properly win back their points, because they are definitely still glass cannons, one unit arriving by itself will get eaten alive.

Yeah but the Carnifex has to walk across the table (I don't think a Mucolid by himself is that good) and can be significantly weakened by multi-damage shooting. Raveners are always guaranteed a shooting phase and maybe charge attempt against anything that doesn't have "Interceptor", which right now is really just Tau, Coteaz, and Deathmarks afaik.

by "significantly weakened", i think you mean "not weakened at all" lol, double check the rules =P

as for him walking across the table - yeah, thats exactly what I just said. You are paying a premium for the mobility. The shooting is weaker so you need to use that mobility to get into combat I think, because 100 pts for 4x S5 hits, probably average 2 wounds is not really worth the defensive profile. Gotta put multiple units out there so enough make it in combat to start eating things with 4x attacks. The Deathspitters help them till they there but no mistake they need to use their mobility to get in assault with the ideal units




Automatically Appended Next Post:

lordtaco wrote:
One thing i was thinking about with the T-fex is that 3+ to hit is not too bad, and could use a command point to reroll a miss for the 2 hits, doing 2d6 wounds to a target i think could be pretty... deccent if a bit pricey

how do i make him 3+ to hit? profile says hes 4+