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Noctem wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

Noctem wrote:
What's the best loadout for Tyrant Guards that are attached to the Swarmlord?

You don't 'attach' to a HT anymore... just be 'near' them to absorb hits

Either way, question remains the same =P

Naked. They're ablative wounds. Why would you buy pricey melee weapons for a unit who is barely intended to live long enough to fight? :-p

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Noctem wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:

Noctem wrote:
What's the best loadout for Tyrant Guards that are attached to the Swarmlord?

You don't 'attach' to a HT anymore... just be 'near' them to absorb hits

Either way, question remains the same =P

Naked. They're ablative wounds. Why would you buy pricey melee weapons for a unit who is barely intended to live long enough to fight? :-p

Because upgrades are cheap (with the exception of crushing claws).

You can give them adrenal glands and boneswords with lash whips for 3 extra points per model. The adrenals are almost a necessity that lets them keep up with the faster Hive Tyrant and boneswords with lash whips means that each has a -2 melee and if they die in combat (which they will) they still get to attack.

 ncshooter426 wrote:
I know that stabby bugs seem to be a thing now...but anyone have a shooty list? I dug out my old box o' bugs, have the following:

70 termagant
46 hormagaunts
40 Genestealers
12 Warriors, mostly with ranged + scythe weapon
3 brood lords (metal)
4 Carnifex, unarmed awaiting loadout
1 Lictor (metal, current)
1 Lictor (metal, OOP)
2 Zoaenthrope (metal, previous gen)
1 Zoaenthrope (metal, super old style)



Still on sprue/in box/unassembled
--
1 Hive tyrant/flyrant/Swarmlord
3 Warriors
32 hormagaunts
8 termagant

Was planning on buying around 100$ worth of new toys to augment what I had, but need to pick a direction -- shooty or stabby.

I think shooty is fine. I also think the stabby/shooty paradigm is a fallosy. Most shooty tyranid units are good in combat, and most combat lists need some long distance to stop transports or long range backliners.

 997Turbo wrote:
Genestealers are hands down the best unit in the Index.

With army construction rules being what they are, I'm afraid that in a competitive sense we might be trading our max Flyrant armies in for max Genestealer armies. Not in a 1850 divided by Flyrant extreme, but in a "every competitive Tyranid army starts with 60-80 Genestealers at a minimum" way.

Yeah, until you face an army with proper bubble wrapping and lots of anti-dude shooting that can clear 20-30 Genestealers in a turn easily. I'm not saying they're bad, but spamming a single unit type in general is never a tournament-winning gameplan.

Tyran wrote:



What's the best loadout for Tyrant Guards that are attached to the Swarmlord?

Adrenal glands and nothing else


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:

 997Turbo wrote:
Genestealers are hands down the best unit in the Index.

With army construction rules being what they are, I'm afraid that in a competitive sense we might be trading our max Flyrant armies in for max Genestealer armies. Not in a 1850 divided by Flyrant extreme, but in a "every competitive Tyranid army starts with 60-80 Genestealers at a minimum" way.

Yeah, until you face an army with proper bubble wrapping and lots of anti-dude shooting that can clear 20-30 Genestealers in a turn easily. I'm not saying they're bad, but spamming a single unit type in general is never a tournament-winning gameplan.

Actually typically spamming amazing units is exactly how you win tournaments. 45 warp spiders won the LVO. The point is that you have a stupid amount of redundancy and your army completely overwhelms the other army. I can absolutely see this happening with Genestealers, although they obviously do need supporting units (as do even the Warp Spiders). Especially for Genestealers, the reason why you need so many (60-80) is exactly because of what Turbo said - any army can bubble wrap and deal with 20-30. So you need to bring more, and you should stagger when the units hit the lines ideally. Not a lot of armies can deal with 40 Genestealers turn 1 AND 40 Genestealers turn 2

Requizen wrote:

 997Turbo wrote:
Genestealers are hands down the best unit in the Index.

With army construction rules being what they are, I'm afraid that in a competitive sense we might be trading our max Flyrant armies in for max Genestealer armies. Not in a 1850 divided by Flyrant extreme, but in a "every competitive Tyranid army starts with 60-80 Genestealers at a minimum" way.

Yeah, until you face an army with proper bubble wrapping and lots of anti-dude shooting that can clear 20-30 Genestealers in a turn easily. I'm not saying they're bad, but spamming a single unit type in general is never a tournament-winning gameplan.

Agreed. The early days meta has a lot of top players spamming AC Razorbacks with Robooty, or Scion spam... both of which can chew through a one-dimensional list built around modestly pricey t4 models with a 5++ save.

I love GS and think a unit of 15-20 is absolutely auto-include in any current 'Nid list, but going into the 40+ range wound be madness. I was adamant about running two 20-man units when the book dropped, but even now I am finding more tactical wisdom in it being one unit, and then a Hormagaunt unit.

New to Nids here. Has taking Pyrovores with a Trygon been discussed yet? Puts you within range and guaranteed hits.

 benlac wrote:
New to Nids here. Has taking Pyrovores with a Trygon been discussed yet? Puts you within range and guaranteed hits.

No, because Pyrovores aren't Troops.

You could use a Tyrannocyte though.

 benlac wrote:
New to Nids here. Has taking Pyrovores with a Trygon been discussed yet? Puts you within range and guaranteed hits.

You can take Pyrovores with a Tyrannocyte, which I have now tried on three occasions. My verdict is that they are finally far from useless, but they are so far removed from being a top choice that I don't see them getting much competitive play. S5 auto-hits on the drop are nice, and they are decent at removing pesky bubble-wrap, but so are a ton of our other options (such as Barbed Stranglers on the T-cyte itself). T4 doesn't do them any favors, but they're priced appropriately so as to not feel like a terrible choice.

Essentially I would say they are a fun, and playable unit now, but won't be showing up very often.

HOw much synapse creatures, and what source of synapse, do you picture yourself taking in 1000, 1500 and 2000 armies?

synapse seems great

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 997Turbo wrote:
Genestealers are hands down the best unit in the Index.

With army construction rules being what they are, I'm afraid that in a competitive sense we might be trading our max Flyrant armies in for max Genestealer armies. Not in a 1850 divided by Flyrant extreme, but in a "every competitive Tyranid army starts with 60-80 Genestealers at a minimum" way.

Yeah, until you face an army with proper bubble wrapping and lots of anti-dude shooting that can clear 20-30 Genestealers in a turn easily. I'm not saying they're bad, but spamming a single unit type in general is never a tournament-winning gameplan.

Agreed. The early days meta has a lot of top players spamming AC Razorbacks with Robooty, or Scion spam... both of which can chew through a one-dimensional list built around modestly pricey t4 models with a 5++ save.

I love GS and think a unit of 15-20 is absolutely auto-include in any current 'Nid list, but going into the 40+ range wound be madness. I was adamant about running two 20-man units when the book dropped, but even now I am finding more tactical wisdom in it being one unit, and then a Hormagaunt unit.

Then what are you taking over Genestealers in this case?

 997Turbo wrote:



Then what are you taking over Genestealers in this case?

That is the real question, and I don't think there's really a good answer for top tier tournament meta.

The issue I see with competitive lists, having played in an 8th edition tournament already, is that we're kind of like the Imperial Knight army of this edition.

In 7th, everyone knew you could run into an Adamantium Lance in any given round, so they made sure that their list could beat Ad Lance. In 8th, every list knows that they'll have the potential to run into a heavy turn 1 assault army (which we are perhaps the worst offender for) so they'll make sure they have sufficient bubble wrap to prevent a turn 1 assault. I think most assault heavy Tyranid lists, if constructed properly, will have no problem going 3-3 or 4-2, or even 5-1 over the course of a 6 round GT if the draws are pretty good. But getting into the top 8 is an entirely different ballgame that I don't know that we have the tools to crack. Would love to be wrong though.

But a 40-60 Genestealer list will overrun most casual lists that aren't prepared for it.

Instead of Stealers, Hormagants are a pretty good second choice. They're cheaper but do less damage per wound. If you want to bring a body that's about half as effective as a Genestealer and costs half as much, they're your unit of choice.

 luke1705 wrote:

 997Turbo wrote:



Then what are you taking over Genestealers in this case?

That is the real question, and I don't think there's really a good answer for top tier tournament meta.

The issue I see with competitive lists, having played in an 8th edition tournament already, is that we're kind of like the Imperial Knight army of this edition.

In 7th, everyone knew you could run into an Adamantium Lance in any given round, so they made sure that their list could beat Ad Lance. In 8th, every list knows that they'll have the potential to run into a heavy turn 1 assault army (which we are perhaps the worst offender for) so they'll make sure they have sufficient bubble wrap to prevent a turn 1 assault. I think most assault heavy Tyranid lists, if constructed properly, will have no problem going 3-3 or 4-2, or even 5-1 over the course of a 6 round GT if the draws are pretty good. But getting into the top 8 is an entirely different ballgame that I don't know that we have the tools to crack. Would love to be wrong though.

But a 40-60 Genestealer list will overrun most casual lists that aren't prepared for it.

Instead of Stealers, Hormagants are a pretty good second choice. They're cheaper but do less damage per wound. If you want to bring a body that's about half as effective as a Genestealer and costs half as much, they're your unit of choice.

Yeah I expect that as time goes on, our "best" (tourney) list will be a Hormsgaunt rush to clean bubblewrap followed by a T2, or even 3 DS If that plays out, then Termagant gunlines, backed by Tervagon might be a "thing" as a bubblewrap remover/ VP point sitter.


XXXXXXX(Termagants)........XXXXXXX(Termagants

............ ............ Tervigon(Bubble lets you replenish both units)....

 997Turbo wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 997Turbo wrote:
Genestealers are hands down the best unit in the Index.

With army construction rules being what they are, I'm afraid that in a competitive sense we might be trading our max Flyrant armies in for max Genestealer armies. Not in a 1850 divided by Flyrant extreme, but in a "every competitive Tyranid army starts with 60-80 Genestealers at a minimum" way.

Yeah, until you face an army with proper bubble wrapping and lots of anti-dude shooting that can clear 20-30 Genestealers in a turn easily. I'm not saying they're bad, but spamming a single unit type in general is never a tournament-winning gameplan.

Agreed. The early days meta has a lot of top players spamming AC Razorbacks with Robooty, or Scion spam... both of which can chew through a one-dimensional list built around modestly pricey t4 models with a 5++ save.

I love GS and think a unit of 15-20 is absolutely auto-include in any current 'Nid list, but going into the 40+ range wound be madness. I was adamant about running two 20-man units when the book dropped, but even now I am finding more tactical wisdom in it being one unit, and then a Hormagaunt unit.

Then what are you taking over Genestealers in this case?

I'm increasingly liking Hormagaunts as cheap line-breakers. They're fast, cheap, dependable for cutting through the kind of garbage people bubble-wrap with, and importantly they're disposable. You can eat multi-charge over-watch, lose a buttload thanks to Synapse, and then charge in Stealers to actually do quality work.

Also, even though its pricier... I think the 'Nid meta might end up including 30 Gants + Tervigon in the back-field. They take up such a huge volume that they largely turn off deep-strike shenanigans, and 30 bodies, 10 replaced a turn takes an obnoxious amount of shooting to remove from objectives.

I'm not sold on the Tervigon yet. Seems like she will attract a ton of anti-tank weaponry and not last long enough to actually get her points worth. She is one of the more expensive units in our lists as well, so her drawing fire from other things doesn't exactly help.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 benlac wrote:
New to Nids here. Has taking Pyrovores with a Trygon been discussed yet? Puts you within range and guaranteed hits.

You can take Pyrovores with a Tyrannocyte, which I have now tried on three occasions. My verdict is that they are finally far from useless, but they are so far removed from being a top choice that I don't see them getting much competitive play. S5 auto-hits on the drop are nice, and they are decent at removing pesky bubble-wrap, but so are a ton of our other options (such as Barbed Stranglers on the T-cyte itself). T4 doesn't do them any favors, but they're priced appropriately so as to not feel like a terrible choice.

Essentially I would say they are a fun, and playable unit now, but won't be showing up very often.

Cheers, I didn't catch that.

Also, how many Hormagaunts can fit in 1/2 a 3'' radius of a Trygon? I'm going to guess... 20?

I've got about a dozen games of 8th in at this point, and I really think Tyranids will shine by going mixed arms. Lots of gaunts, plus lots of MC's Mostly combat, but a little shooting mixed in for flyers and the like. Here's a 1750 list I'm thinking of taking to a tournament.


98 PL, 1750pts
Battalion Detachment 6CP

HQ
Broodlord
Tervigon
The Swarmlord

Troops
Genestealers x20
Rending Claws, Scything Talons

Hormagaunt x30
Adrenal glands

Termaguants x30
11x (Devourer)
19x (fleshborer)

Tyranid Warriors x6
2x venom cannons, rest scytals and devourers

Heavy Support
Carnifexes x3
All with:
2x Monstrous Scything Talons , Adrenal Glands , Bio- plasma , Thresher Scythe ]

Probably something like that. I have to do a good amount of wrapping around to fit 20 Genestealers who are on 25mm bases though, so even that seems unlikely if your intent is to exclusively use the frontage of a Trygon.

 benlac wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

 benlac wrote:
New to Nids here. Has taking Pyrovores with a Trygon been discussed yet? Puts you within range and guaranteed hits.

You can take Pyrovores with a Tyrannocyte, which I have now tried on three occasions. My verdict is that they are finally far from useless, but they are so far removed from being a top choice that I don't see them getting much competitive play. S5 auto-hits on the drop are nice, and they are decent at removing pesky bubble-wrap, but so are a ton of our other options (such as Barbed Stranglers on the T-cyte itself). T4 doesn't do them any favors, but they're priced appropriately so as to not feel like a terrible choice.

Essentially I would say they are a fun, and playable unit now, but won't be showing up very often.

Cheers, I didn't catch that.

Also, how many Hormagaunts can fit in 1/2 a 3'' radius of a Trygon? I'm going to guess... 20?

No you can do 30

 GreaterGood? wrote:
I've got about a dozen games of 8th in at this point, and I really think Tyranids will shine by going mixed arms. Lots of gaunts, plus lots of MC's Mostly combat, but a little shooting mixed in for flyers and the like. Here's a 1750 list I'm thinking of taking to a tournament.


98 PL, 1750pts
Battalion Detachment 6CP

HQ
Broodlord
Tervigon
The Swarmlord

Troops
Genestealers x20
Rending Claws, Scything Talons

Hormagaunt x30
Adrenal glands

Termaguants x30
11x (Devourer)
19x (fleshborer)

Tyranid Warriors x6
2x venom cannons, rest scytals and devourers

Heavy Support
Carnifexes x3
All with:
2x Monstrous Scything Talons , Adrenal Glands , Bio- plasma , Thresher Scythe ]

If you're taking that many infantry bodies, Venomthropes are probably well worth it. I don't consider them auto-include, but if you're going that hard on bodies, apparently planning to walk them all up table, you'll appreciate the Venom's bubble.

 luke1705 wrote:

 997Turbo wrote:



Then what are you taking over Genestealers in this case?

That is the real question, and I don't think there's really a good answer for top tier tournament meta.

The issue I see with competitive lists, having played in an 8th edition tournament already, is that we're kind of like the Imperial Knight army of this edition.

In 7th, everyone knew you could run into an Adamantium Lance in any given round, so they made sure that their list could beat Ad Lance. In 8th, every list knows that they'll have the potential to run into a heavy turn 1 assault army (which we are perhaps the worst offender for) so they'll make sure they have sufficient bubble wrap to prevent a turn 1 assault. I think most assault heavy Tyranid lists, if constructed properly, will have no problem going 3-3 or 4-2, or even 5-1 over the course of a 6 round GT if the draws are pretty good. But getting into the top 8 is an entirely different ballgame that I don't know that we have the tools to crack. Would love to be wrong though.

But a 40-60 Genestealer list will overrun most casual lists that aren't prepared for it.

Instead of Stealers, Hormagants are a pretty good second choice. They're cheaper but do less damage per wound. If you want to bring a body that's about half as effective as a Genestealer and costs half as much, they're your unit of choice.

I will say, I have found simply forcing the opponent to turtle up in fear of that massive turn 1 assault can be good enough. With proper LOS terrain you can force them to have to stay there while you hide and control the majority of the board. Either they come out behind their screen or they stay and lose the objective battle. I agree overall that Tyranids are kind of a one trick pony. If you can handle genestealers, you can handle Tyranids.

The 50lb gorilla in the room to all this is of course Imperial Guard with mass conscripts and artillery...

From the FW N&R thread:

Eldar Vampire Hunter wrote:
Hey everyone, just got back from taking a brief look at both unreleased indices at Warhammer world. Happy to answer questions about anything I can remember if you guys are interested.

To start with some highlights - the Heirophant is 90 power, 50 wounds, toughness 9. It has two bio-cannons that are S10 AP-2 with six shots each and 2D6 damage. They're also macro weapons, so that damage is doubled vs titanic enemies.

Both Heirodules are T8 22W and around 21 power. I believe the barbed Heirodule has identical guns to the Heirophant except with only 1d6 damage - they might also not be macro, I'm not sure. Don't remember the details of their melee, but they have a special set of scything talons that are called 'gargantuan scything talons' or something similar.

Is there any value to be found in the fortifications? The void shield generators could be useful for the backfield campers like an Exocrine or Biovores but is it way too expensive to get enough value from it? Could hive guard or shooty warriors with a prime in a bastion be a threat? Since they are all unaligned you could easily have a tyranid flavor version of any of them in a battle-forged army.

I'd need more details on Heirodules before I get excited. It would be nice to have a shooty-Knight analog, but if it really is six-shots, 1d6 damage, i'm not sure how excited I am.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I'd need more details on Heirodules before I get excited. It would be nice to have a shooty-Knight analog, but if it really is six-shots, 1d6 damage, i'm not sure how excited I am.

Well he has two of them, but still only 12 shots. Even if they buff him to hit on 3+ it still seems rather lackluster...I would rather have (3) units of Hive Guard for similar points.

I feel the jury is still out for genestealers, Im not saying they are bad, but with the flexibility of the army now, they are far from an auto include.

Because of the changes to combat and the removal of initiative (a beneficial change) genestealers simply dont have the staying power to survive a first strike, they are still the glass cannons they have always been so basing the strategy of the core of an army around an albeit good, but expensive assault only unit is inherently dangerous. In my games Ive found that even choppa boys are a very serious threat to stealers if they get the charge, or if they spend command points to go before the stealers. I have seen in games a unit of 15 boys with nob EASILY kill 20 stealers on the charge.

I think hormagaunts are interesting as losing a unit of 30 of them is a far less significant hit than losing 20 stealers. But actually I feel one of the real gems in this edition may be warriors. Being both shooty and stabby is very valuable, and multiwound units in a sea of monsters is INCREDIBLY useful, as to actually significantly reduce the combat effectiveness of a warrior unit, means their multi-damage weapons arent shooting your monsters. I can't believe boneswords are only 2 pts per model, and with all of their weapons being assault, they can even advance and fire making their utility incredible. Add in a Cheap prime, and their combat effectiveness goes up dramatically.

Equal points stealers to warriors, the warriors will often, but not always win, but in games against shooty bubble wrapped armies, the warriors will have a much greater chance of being effective as they have shooting up to 36" while still moving and butchering things in assault.

I am surprised that people having talked about our characters more though. 2 auto includes in my lists after playtesting them a bunch are deathleaper and OOE. The red terror CAN be useful in some circumstances, like when they have units with good saves and shooting, but crap combat (like bsides and centurions) but in general, more functions as an amusing distraction. OOE is a frickin beast and one of our best choices to severely cripple a knight in combat (assuming he gets the charge which is often for me, thanks swarmy), and at 140 pts, he is a steal. Deathleaper is exceptional at eliminating pesky low end characters, and it is amazing how often people will forget about him if you wait a turn or 2 to deploy him, and -2 to hit him is no joke...

Anyways, I haven't been this excited about nids since 4th edition and I cant wait to see more tactics, strategies and experiences that people encounter with our bugzeez!!

I like Deathleaper at the moment, but every time I put him in a list I just know I couldn't get away with doing that in a tournament with good players in it.

A competitive 40k player will never let him do what he is meant to do.

Even forcing the conscipt blob to have to absorb the characters instead of having the freedom to chain back to them as they like is a small victory.

 Eldarain wrote:
Even forcing the conscipt blob to have to absorb the characters instead of having the freedom to chain back to them as they like is a small victory.

Exactly, and I mean you dont HAVE to deploy him that way, remember...he is SUPER fast, with a stock 9" move, you could just deploy him on the board, and run him at them...I usually deploy him last for this very reason

 997Turbo wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I'd need more details on Heirodules before I get excited. It would be nice to have a shooty-Knight analog, but if it really is six-shots, 1d6 damage, i'm not sure how excited I am.

Well he has two of them, but still only 12 shots. Even if they buff him to hit on 3+ it still seems rather lackluster...I would rather have (3) units of Hive Guard for similar points.

Not if those cannons have the macro keyword you won't. 8 hits, 5.3 wounds means 3.5 failed saves if the rend -2 profile is accurate. So if that does d6 damage per hit, that is 12.4 wounds to that knight. Oh wait? It has the TITANIC keyword? Let's straight up double that to 24.8 wounds. How many wounds does your knight have again?

So yeah. If our hierodules can gun down a knight a turn ON AVERAGE SHOOTING, I'm really ok with that. Aren't you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FYI our hierophant does 19 wounds to a warlord on average. Through his void shields. Who else can do THAT?