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I hate to say it, but maybe this is where we can use GSC. We need to have the guard tanks in a separate detachment if I'm reading the rules correctly, but maybe we just grab some neophytes with shotguns. You can use the CP re-roll to mitigate the bad cult ambush results somewhat, and that's a lot of shots clearing out screening units


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually now that I think about it, this opens up Forge world astra militarum units too. A lot of good there


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I'm thinking I grab some FW astra militarum heavy quad launcher batteries. Probably wouldn't even do an HQ - just do an auxiliary detachment. 4d6 shots at str 5...slightly cheaper than a wyvern...less wounds but t7 instead of t6....also 4 + save but doesn't really matter because it's indirect fire. Means I would need to have to have some Genestealer Cult models also....might do another auxiliary detachment and sacrifice a second command point. Perhaps some neophytes wouldn't be an awful screen....even though cheaper models are tempting, as would it be to include a psyker for mass hypnosis or mind control



We can daisy chain like that, right? Having astra militarum in a Tyranids army so long as we have Genestealer Cult?

luke1705 wrote:I'm still not seeing a great way for us to clear out cheap screening units so that our assault units can get in there. Exocrines kill elite infantry. Biovores circumvent invulnerable saves. But what gives us volume of fire at a reasonable distance? I guess maybe dakkafexes but the threat range isn't great. Hive crones are good but they're not doing any work fast.

Dakkafex and Tyrannofex are good for that role I guess, but as mentioned they need to be in close

Honestly, what assault units are we talking about here? The best mob killers seem to be our Genestealers anyway.... or do you mean to wipe a bunch of hostile shooting off the field so that the Stealers don't get lit up by a bunch of horde dice before making assault? In which case (if you bringing in Stealers with Trygons) best option is probably Tyrannofexes in a Pod and/or Dakka Flyrants for HQ I guess to clear down the field.

GodDamUser wrote:So in my last few games I have found more success in just plain running my genestealers across the board compared to trying to use a Trygon to get them close..

I am thinking of using the Trygon to deliver Guants close.. or maybe Hormagaunts

can you elaborate on your experiences a little? why do you feel running is better than Trygon?

 SHUPPET wrote:

GodDamUser wrote:So in my last few games I have found more success in just plain running my genestealers across the board compared to trying to use a Trygon to get them close..

I am thinking of using the Trygon to deliver Guants close.. or maybe Hormagaunts

can you elaborate on your experiences a little? why do you feel running is better than Trygon?

Well I am finding with the speed that Genestealers move at you are making a T2 charge in most cases..
But in my early games I failed charges and just lost bulk Genestealers, other wise walking them forward and then having Trygons pop up with Gaunt spam, then you get some shooting in T1 to weaken the infantry and have a potential screen and/or overwatch soak for the Genestealers, you are also more likely to keep the Broodlord up with them for the extra atk

The thing that I find problematic about saying "I'll just shoot for a turn 2 charge" is that some armies will require you to chew through their bubble wrap for a turn. So suddenly you're not getting there until turn 3, and if you don't go first, that means that you're eating 3 turns of shooting. Didn't work last edition, and I don't expect that it'll work now

 luke1705 wrote:
The thing that I find problematic about saying "I'll just shoot for a turn 2 charge" is that some armies will require you to chew through their bubble wrap for a turn. So suddenly you're not getting there until turn 3, and if you don't go first, that means that you're eating 3 turns of shooting. Didn't work last edition, and I don't expect that it'll work now

well that's where I am thinking Exocrines and Gaunts can do some chewing of the bubble wraps in the shooting, hopefully leaving the gap for the Genestealers to punch through

 997Turbo wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
I'm still not seeing a great way for us to clear out cheap screening units so that our assault units can get in there. Exocrines kill elite infantry. Biovores circumvent invulnerable saves. But what gives us volume of fire at a reasonable distance? I guess maybe dakkafexes but the threat range isn't great. Hive crones are good but they're not doing any work fast.

This is Tyranids biggest issue right now - 100%

Well I for one plan on trying out full squads of Warriors w/ Deathspitters and Venom Cannons this week. I think with that and a combined Onslaught and an Alpha Warrior would help throw some major firepower down field. should help clear the way for some assaults. I've always been a huge fan of the Warriors since 4th Edition, so I've got 24 warriors and a pair of Alphas to try this out.

For 27 points more than 2 Dakkafexes your going to get 18 S5 shots and potentially 9 S8 shots along with that for a total of 27 shots. The Dakkafexes will only get you 24 S5 shots on the move plus a slightly lower BS skill to hit with. I'd rather keep the Carnies assault based and hit the bigger thing with them.Not to mention your getting some front line synapse with the warriors as well for the rest of your troops.

 Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote:

 997Turbo wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
I'm still not seeing a great way for us to clear out cheap screening units so that our assault units can get in there. Exocrines kill elite infantry. Biovores circumvent invulnerable saves. But what gives us volume of fire at a reasonable distance? I guess maybe dakkafexes but the threat range isn't great. Hive crones are good but they're not doing any work fast.

This is Tyranids biggest issue right now - 100%

Well I for one plan on trying out full squads of Warriors w/ Deathspitters and Venom Cannons this week. I think with that and a combined Onslaught and an Alpha Warrior would help throw some major firepower down field. should help clear the way for some assaults. I've always been a huge fan of the Warriors since 4th Edition, so I've got 24 warriors and a pair of Alphas to try this out.

For 27 points more than 2 Dakkafexes your going to get 18 S5 shots and potentially 9 S8 shots along with that for a total of 27 shots. The Dakkafexes will only get you 24 S5 shots on the move plus a slightly lower BS skill to hit with. I'd rather keep the Carnies assault based and hit the bigger thing with them.Not to mention your getting some front line synapse with the warriors as well for the rest of your troops.

You might wanna check some of your maths here. By "potentially 9" you also mean "potentially 3", you can count that as 6 shots since that's the average, so yeah its still just 24 shots just like the Dakkafex. They are S6 not S5 as well which is relevant against GEQ. Also, that unit of Warriors is 255 points, as opposed to 2x Dakkafexes at 194 points (61 points more expensive), which is over 30% increase of cost. and btw Warriors have the same BS as Carnifexes do unless you bring a Prime, which is even more points. Basically, Dakkafex's will outshoot that Warrior squad and be MUCH more tanky, and are also faster, and thats assuming they were the same points, when the Fexes are actually significantly cheaper.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
What would they offer in the long-run, doing that, that other units wouldn't do better? The two already work in the back-field for board control, and having a filled deployment zone mucks up your opponents deep-strikes and any turn-one charges.

They wouldn't provide anything offensively dropped on the front-lines.

SideshowLucifer wrote:Don't get caught up with turn 1 assaults either. They can help if your opponent makes a serious error, but it's usually better to wait and let their army split up a bit.

babelfish wrote:
It gets you 20 wounds on T4, 26 on T3, 14 on T5-7, and 7 on T8. That assumes your drop goes where you want it, all your fleshborers are in range, and you get all your rerolls, which is reasonable with how much control you have over where you land.

Is that worth it? Maybe not. I would run it differently, with the Tervigon on the table turn one supporting 60-90 gaunts along side at least 2 other Tervigons. The d-gaunts would be for removing specific targets, like missile squads, and would all have devourers.

I just wanted to thank all 3 of you for your really helpful and valid points. I'm a painter and am reading this thread to learn tactics so that I don't buy random models to paint but I actually end up with an army that I can use somewhat competitively.

There's part of me that really wants to have what essentially was 'Living artillery' on the backfield whilst also podding a threat in their face. A good option hasn't necessarily sprung to mind yet. I was conscious that you couldn't move out of a 'cyte or tunnel but you could shoot, 20 supported devilgants seemed good in my head but I totally see where I'm wrong.

It feels like the tyrannocyte is best for dropping a HQ or non-troop choice (else use a trygon). Not quite sure what a good threat might be.

 luke1705 wrote:
I'm still not seeing a great way for us to clear out cheap screening units so that our assault units can get in there. Exocrines kill elite infantry. Biovores circumvent invulnerable saves. But what gives us volume of fire at a reasonable distance? I guess maybe dakkafexes but the threat range isn't great. Hive crones are good but they're not doing any work fast.

Try a Tyrannocyte with Stranglers? That might do a bunch of damage vs chaff...

 luke1705 wrote:
I'm still not seeing a great way for us to clear out cheap screening units so that our assault units can get in there. Exocrines kill elite infantry. Biovores circumvent invulnerable saves. But what gives us volume of fire at a reasonable distance? I guess maybe dakkafexes but the threat range isn't great. Hive crones are good but they're not doing any work fast.

30 Gargoyles:
They can possibly shoot and assault T1 and do more damage to GEQ than Hormagants.

20-30 Devilgaunts in Tyrannocyte/Trygon:
Very expensive but they do a lot of damage. Also the Trygon/Tyrannocyte can fire on chaff units.

Dakkafex:
Yeah, because they are meant to be used for that.

Pyrovores:
Possibly not enough shoots, but might be worth a try.

Tyrannofex with fleshborer hive:
See Dakkafex.

9 Raveners with Spinefists:
They have their own delivery method, shoot like crazy and can also charge and kill chaff easily. But they are high points cost. However not much more than a Tyranno and you might not need 9?

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote:

 997Turbo wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
I'm still not seeing a great way for us to clear out cheap screening units so that our assault units can get in there. Exocrines kill elite infantry. Biovores circumvent invulnerable saves. But what gives us volume of fire at a reasonable distance? I guess maybe dakkafexes but the threat range isn't great. Hive crones are good but they're not doing any work fast.

This is Tyranids biggest issue right now - 100%

Well I for one plan on trying out full squads of Warriors w/ Deathspitters and Venom Cannons this week. I think with that and a combined Onslaught and an Alpha Warrior would help throw some major firepower down field. should help clear the way for some assaults. I've always been a huge fan of the Warriors since 4th Edition, so I've got 24 warriors and a pair of Alphas to try this out.

For 27 points more than 2 Dakkafexes your going to get 18 S5 shots and potentially 9 S8 shots along with that for a total of 27 shots. The Dakkafexes will only get you 24 S5 shots on the move plus a slightly lower BS skill to hit with. I'd rather keep the Carnies assault based and hit the bigger thing with them.Not to mention your getting some front line synapse with the warriors as well for the rest of your troops.

You might wanna check some of your maths here. By "potentially 9" you also mean "potentially 3", you can count that as 6 shots since that's the average, so yeah its still just 24 shots just like the Dakkafex. They are S6 not S5 as well which is relevant against GEQ. Also, that unit of Warriors is 255 points, as opposed to 2x Dakkafexes at 194 points (61 points more expensive), which is over 30% increase of cost. and btw Warriors have the same BS as Carnifexes do unless you bring a Prime, which is even more points. Basically, Dakkafex's will outshoot that Warrior squad and be MUCH more tanky, and are also faster, and thats assuming they were the same points, when the Fexes are actually significantly cheaper.

But would not the carnifexes give up their mellee attacks? With the warriors and the prime yiu can just grab some bone sworrds among all that. If you wanne min max (some of them will be shot) keep warriors as cheap as possible to just add wounds to the unit. I wish warrior spinefist got a point cost, preferably between 0 and 2.

The carnifexes gets eaten in mellee. Warriors with boneswords do not.

Also venom cannons can punch a dent in rhinos at 36 range. The dakka fex in question can not.

Warriors also have synapse.

While not superior saying one is objectivly better is wrong.

 Niiai wrote:

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Third_Age_of_Baggz wrote:

 997Turbo wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
I'm still not seeing a great way for us to clear out cheap screening units so that our assault units can get in there. Exocrines kill elite infantry. Biovores circumvent invulnerable saves. But what gives us volume of fire at a reasonable distance? I guess maybe dakkafexes but the threat range isn't great. Hive crones are good but they're not doing any work fast.

This is Tyranids biggest issue right now - 100%

Well I for one plan on trying out full squads of Warriors w/ Deathspitters and Venom Cannons this week. I think with that and a combined Onslaught and an Alpha Warrior would help throw some major firepower down field. should help clear the way for some assaults. I've always been a huge fan of the Warriors since 4th Edition, so I've got 24 warriors and a pair of Alphas to try this out.

For 27 points more than 2 Dakkafexes your going to get 18 S5 shots and potentially 9 S8 shots along with that for a total of 27 shots. The Dakkafexes will only get you 24 S5 shots on the move plus a slightly lower BS skill to hit with. I'd rather keep the Carnies assault based and hit the bigger thing with them.Not to mention your getting some front line synapse with the warriors as well for the rest of your troops.

You might wanna check some of your maths here. By "potentially 9" you also mean "potentially 3", you can count that as 6 shots since that's the average, so yeah its still just 24 shots just like the Dakkafex. They are S6 not S5 as well which is relevant against GEQ. Also, that unit of Warriors is 255 points, as opposed to 2x Dakkafexes at 194 points (61 points more expensive), which is over 30% increase of cost. and btw Warriors have the same BS as Carnifexes do unless you bring a Prime, which is even more points. Basically, Dakkafex's will outshoot that Warrior squad and be MUCH more tanky, and are also faster, and thats assuming they were the same points, when the Fexes are actually significantly cheaper.

But would not the carnifexes give up their mellee attacks? With the warriors and the prime yiu can just grab some bone sworrds among all that. If you wanne min max (some of them will be shot) keep warriors as cheap as possible to just add wounds to the unit. I wish warrior spinefist got a point cost, preferably between 0 and 2.

The carnifexes gets eaten in mellee. Warriors with boneswords do not.

Also venom cannons can punch a dent in rhinos at 36 range. The dakka fex in question can not.

Warriors also have synapse.

While not superior saying one is objectivly better is wrong.

... well its a good thing that i didn't say anything even resembling that at all, and simply corrected the factually incorrect statements being made, and stated how Dakkafexes would be better at the one role specified, which is clearing cheap screens in shooting to help clear the way for our assault units. Also, those numbers are with keeping those Warriors cheap as possible, and throwing in a Prime +BSwords is doing the opposite . Not sure what you're post adds here tbh

 Niiai wrote:


But would not the carnifexes give up their mellee attacks? With the warriors and the prime yiu can just grab some bone sworrds among all that. If you wanne min max (some of them will be shot) keep warriors as cheap as possible to just add wounds to the unit. I wish warrior spinefist got a point cost, preferably between 0 and 2.

The carnifexes gets eaten in mellee. Warriors with boneswords do not.

Also venom cannons can punch a dent in rhinos at 36 range. The dakka fex in question can not.

Warriors also have synapse.

While not superior saying one is objectivly better is wrong.

While Warriors have Synapse, Dakkafex that clear out screening units don't need it. Single models are essentially fearless and if you're clearing out screens Instinctive Behavior is a moot point.

Boneswords are expensive and take away more shoioting. Carnifex's base stat-line is nothing to scoff at in melee. They also retain their charge bonus regardless whether you have CC weapons or not.

Unless you're insinuating a Carnifex with 4 gun arms can't fight in melee? For starters you don't need a melee weapon to fight in melee or 60% of the units in this game couldn't do it. Secondly the Carnifex still has its tail weapon.

Dakkafex are not getting "eaten" in melee by screen units. Anything that does "eat" them is not going to have trouble with Warriors either.

I love Warriors but they're not even remotely filling the same role as Dakkafex

To be fair, a single warrior with boneswords is more dangerous in melee than a fex with double guns.

Actually Warriors are a possible replacement for a Dakkafex. However, they get worse when they are suffering wounds and the Fex does not. Also they are more dangerous in melee with plenty of attacks.

I think it depends if you want to have a synapse and mission grabing capabilities or more stamina + a slightly deadlier weapon.

Down with the pitchforks guys. I am merly pointing out that warriors adds more than just dakka. It is not a flat carnifex > warrios. It depends if you only want a dakka fex, or if you are willing to invest a coupel of points more to get a more utilaty unit.

I have said it before but it can bear repeating if I did not make myself clear:

- Throwing 2 pair of bone swords in a group of 9 warriors makes the warriors much better in mellee vs mellee space marines. (Jump marines/bikes) then the same amount of points in dakka carnifexes do. Bone swords are very potent as you jsut remove them last. You also don't loose any shooting unless you mean those points could be reserved for more dakka in another unit.

- The warriors provide synapse. Good to babysitt many of the units in our army. If they are multiple models or have a long range you want to target you need synapse. While the singel model carnifexes do not care that much about synapse, other parts of your army might stil do. (Gaunts, raveners, long ranged guns like hive guards.)

- The big weapons upgrades you get (venom/strangelthorn) have a superior range to the carnifex. Our army stil enjoys the few 36 ranged weapons we can get our hand on.

- If you are only taking less then 9 warriors squads, you can essentialy buy 'bare' warriors as a way to add more wounds to your squad.

The fact that we are discussing warriors vs carnifexes in an indication that the codex currently has a very good internal balance.

Indeed i'm extremely pleased with out new codex. A bit less so on our FW index...

So, question as I am about to face someone taking a ton of FW Chaos stuff I am unfamiliar with.

My opponent at 2000pts has, for good or ill opted to spend 800-ish points on a Hellforged Fellblade. The rest of his list is those super points efficient Rapiers and some Horror bubblewrap.

Math says Swarmy, Trygon, and 20 Toxic Sac Stealers easily pulp the Fellblade with plenty of over-kill (only two of those need to make a charge to statistically put down the Fellblade), but is it even worth it? I feel like its the trap/bait and the rest of the list is the actual threat.

Thoughts?

Remember that the role in question is clearing screens stopping your assault. If you have to assault to do that, its not doing what we are looking for.

The Dakkafex is literally 150% as effective at shooting vs both GEQ and vs bigger gak

Biggest downside is that it can't come out of a tunnel, and requires a Pod per Fex, aka not worth it at all, so they are walking up the field


When it comes to clearing GEQ nothing is matchin Devilgants tho. Take Synapse from a Trygon Prime if you want Synapse.

Also worth noting, depending on positioning, you don't always need to "clear" the wrap unit, just punch meaningful holes in it. Even mediocre fire like the shots from a Trygon, or more substantially the Barbed Strangers on the Tcyte (which do good work, hitting on 4's versus units of 10+ bodies), will help a lot.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Also worth noting, depending on positioning, you don't always need to "clear" the wrap unit, just punch meaningful holes in it. Even mediocre fire like the shots from a Trygon, or more substantially the Barbed Strangers on the Tcyte (which do good work, hitting on 4's versus units of 10+ bodies), will help a lot.

Is more difficult than you think because the opponent can choose where the casualties come from.

Re: your chaos conundrum, the rapiers are what's going to mess you up. They're going to delete your little dudes so fast. Could be beneficial to leave your genestealers in reserve with the trygon until you've dumpsters the horrors, but they are an annoyingly efficient tarpit.

10/10 would ignore the fellblade and try to kill the rest of his army. No matter what mission you're doing, this is a good plan. Except maybe the relic lmao.

 luke1705 wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Also worth noting, depending on positioning, you don't always need to "clear" the wrap unit, just punch meaningful holes in it. Even mediocre fire like the shots from a Trygon, or more substantially the Barbed Strangers on the Tcyte (which do good work, hitting on 4's versus units of 10+ bodies), will help a lot.

Is more difficult than you think because the opponent can choose where the casualties come from.

Re: your chaos conundrum, the rapiers are what's going to mess you up. They're going to delete your little dudes so fast. Could be beneficial to leave your genestealers in reserve with the trygon until you've dumpsters the horrors, but they are an annoyingly efficient tarpit.

10/10 would ignore the fellblade and try to kill the rest of his army. No matter what mission you're doing, this is a good plan. Except maybe the relic lmao.

I figured. My hunch was that it was definitely bait. Problem is, this guy is someone who only plays broken, cheese, lists, so he's someone who will show up with 100 Brimstones in his summoning pool, and just drag the crap out all game long.

 SHUPPET wrote:
Remember that the role in question is clearing screens stopping your assault. If you have to assault to do that, its not doing what we are looking for.

The Dakkafex is literally 150% as effective at shooting vs both GEQ and vs bigger gak

Biggest downside is that it can't come out of a tunnel, and requires a Pod per Fex, aka not worth it at all, so they are walking up the field


When it comes to clearing GEQ nothing is matchin Devilgants tho. Take Synapse from a Trygon Prime if you want Synapse.

The Dakka fex can easily be killed by 2 las cannon shots - while havin trouble obtaining cover + has 0 close combat ability. I dont know why anyone would take 2 guns on a fex now - when you can throw a pair of monster scything talons and make the thing almost twice as deadly. Warriors have their own set of problems - but killing stuff is not their problem - their upgrades make them seriously deadly (like fleshhooks and toxin sacs) Rending claws and toxin sacs is 6 points - every 6 is 2 flat damage to something with -4 AP - THAT HURTS. 3 Wounds is also a sweet spot Good chance to surive through d3 Damage and not even overcharged plasma kills you with a single wound. 4+ save is nice when in cover too. I plan on dropping 9 in a tyrannocyte and buffing them up hard with catalyst and onslaught - it's really just too bad that they worded the tyranocyte the way they did because I'd love to drop a tyranid prime with them as well as a few pyovores and venomthropes.

 SHADOWSTRIKE1 wrote:
Hey guys,

So I'm about to start up a Tyranid army. My FLGS is hosting a friendly 50 Power Level tournament next weekend. I have a few models (some Genestealers, Termagaunts, & Hormagaunts), and will be looking to buy some new models to fill out the small force and hit the PL. I figure this little tournament is a good way to feel out the Tyranids and see how I like them.

If you had to make a 50PL army, what would you fill it with? I haven't picked up the Xenos 2 index, so I haven't really had a chance to look into what units would be worthwhile, so I'm looking for some suggestions from those who have researched the army a bit.

Avoid the super expensive models. I just won a tourney this weekend with 2 broodlord, 2 genestealer units, venomthrope, biovore, 2 carnifexs (wrecker claw variant) and termagant filler. Just play around with your models and see what you like. But Xenos 2 is mandatory

In the bubblewrap senario can't you just fight fire with fire?

30 hormogaunts with adrenal glands are 180 points. They move 9+1d6 each turn. Once they winn a CC they consoledate 6", meaning the opponent has to keep their troops very seperated so that you don't just consolidate into a new CC.

In a 2000 points game, grab 120 hormogaunts for 720. Grab some synapse. Back it up with more bodies, or long range dakka.

If you spend a turn killing their bubble-wrap with ANYTHING, it means a turn where the targets you wanted to work on can now do whatever they intended to, unmolested. The bubble-wrap works as intended if you waste a turn chopping through it, whether it is with Gaunts, or Stealers, etc...

Though a smart player would keep those Stealers, Swarmy, etc... off the table during the turn you use said Gaunts to do that job.

I just use my gaunts to kill the chaff units. I haven't had any problems against horde armies yet. Just don't go for the turn 1 assault. They will have to split up to do much of anything and that is when you bring your stuff on to take advantage of the chaos.

I think that d-gaunts are our best tool for clearing out chaff and screening units. Stealers and d-gaunts are our most efficient tools for killing GEQ. Stealers want to hit the real target, so gaunts need to do the chaff murdering.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
If you spend a turn killing their bubble-wrap with ANYTHING, it means a turn where the targets you wanted to work on can now do whatever they intended to, unmolested. The bubble-wrap works as intended if you waste a turn chopping through it, whether it is with Gaunts, or Stealers, etc...

Though a smart player would keep those Stealers, Swarmy, etc... off the table during the turn you use said Gaunts to do that job.

That's why I'm thinking we fight fire with fire, sad as it is. Grab your favorite GSC unit (I think I'd go with neophytes in case you don't need a screening unit, since they can be flexible and pew pew in that case) plus some astra militarum wyverns, or, if you prefer FW, for a little cheaper grab the heavy quad launcher battery. It's 90 ish points for 4d6 shots that don't need line of sight at 48". The wyvern gets shred but the quad launchers are str 5....wyvern probably wins out mathhammer wise but I'll likely go with the slightly cheaper quad guns just because I have models to use as gun teams, and I'm not a fan of Tyranid tanks.

The worst part? In my list, the thing I have to replace to make this happen? The exocrine :(((


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Posted a prospective tournament list over in the army list section

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/730638.page#9457608

Would love some feedback on how to optimize said list

99.9% Sure you cannot take IG and Tyranids together.

IG & GSC or Tyranids & GSC....not all three.