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I've been kinda thinking the Tyranid thread should be kept for Tyranid discussion not introducing Wyverns and other adaptions that are to my mind purely ultra competitive and end up revolving around AM and GSC instead of Tyranid, am I alone in that? Because I'll shut up if I am.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
I've been kinda thinking the Tyranid thread should be kept for Tyranid discussion not introducing Wyverns and other adaptions that are to my mind purely ultra competitive and end up revolving around AM and GSC instead of Tyranid, am I alone in that? Because I'll shut up if I am.

This thread is for Competitive Tyranid discussion. If AM is what it takes to alleviate our weaknesses, that thats what it takes. I'm not convinced yet, and thats why we can discuss it. If it doesn't belong here, then where? Imo its not just okay to leave it here but i think its also IMPORTANT that we do

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
I've been kinda thinking the Tyranid thread should be kept for Tyranid discussion not introducing Wyverns and other adaptions that are to my mind purely ultra competitive and end up revolving around AM and GSC instead of Tyranid, am I alone in that? Because I'll shut up if I am.

I think you're right that a lot of people won't wind up using them (I myself would not for casual games) but I think it bears mentioning as an option for us.

Many people might not have read the FAQ (or will ever read it) but might be interested in bringing some of those units. Not my cup of tea but I think it's good for people to understand all of their options. Whether they decide to use those options or not is up to them.

OK fair enough I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything you understand just seems like the Tyranids are a pretty damn strong codex right now by themselves

But hey as I said I'll be quiet about it

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
OK fair enough I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything you understand just seems like the Tyranids are a pretty damn strong codex right now by themselves

But hey as I said I'll be quiet about it

Tyranids are strong finally, which is why we want to make sure we are getting the most out of them competively since we finally have what appears to be a non-gimmicky dex.

I say "appears" to be, because we'll see in time if assault is even a viable strategy as the meta evolves. with the strength of some of these flyer lists it might just not be, and we may definitely need to look closely at ALL our options.

 SHUPPET wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
I've been kinda thinking the Tyranid thread should be kept for Tyranid discussion not introducing Wyverns and other adaptions that are to my mind purely ultra competitive and end up revolving around AM and GSC instead of Tyranid, am I alone in that? Because I'll shut up if I am.

This thread is for Competitive Tyranid discussion. If AM is what it takes to alleviate our weaknesses, that thats what it takes. I'm not convinced yet, and thats why we can discuss it. If it doesn't belong here, then where? Imo its not just okay to leave it here but i think its also IMPORTANT that we do

I think his point was more that this thread should be focused mainly on Tyranid-centric lists opposed to lists that are primarily GSC/AM (such as luke1705's list on page 32 - a very nice and nasty looking list to be sure but it doesn't have any Hive Fleet Tyranids in it). There is a thread devoted to our GSC brethren/cousins that could be used for discussing more hybrid-oriented lists, though it isn't quite as active (or as optimistic sadly - price hike on a lot of the GSC units have left people a touch sour).

 SHUPPET wrote:

I say "appears" to be, because we'll see in time if assault is even a viable strategy as the meta evolves. with the strength of some of these flyer lists it might just not be, and we may definitely need to look closely at ALL our options.

I think we should be ok against flyer spam lists if it ends up an archetype we need to tailor for. We have a lot of models with the fly keyword ourselves and plenty of tools to clog up the board to force hover mode. If nothing else, if Flyer spam takes off you might see Skarbrand suddenly become very popular given what the FAQ did with him.

I'm strongly considering AM allies for the Hydra. A unit of 3 seems like top notch anti-air, and isn't terrible at shooting ground stuff either, each one having practically the damage output of dual Deathspitter Carnifex, except from further range, and then with Bolter+Stubber added on too.



Luke, what units is currently top tier for AM? And what have you been using for Nid allies? I see your list but I have no idea the rules for the FW am stuff and don't want to spend all that money on the IA:AM dex just to potentially not even want to use any of that stuff lol. Can you give me a crash course here?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If you personally don't want to talk GSC, then you don't have to, but Genestealers are still Tyranids.... I don't see why we need two threads for what is essentially the one race, are allies, and are obviously going to be considered to be mixed and matched heavily when playing either army competitively. And AM are part of that Genestealer Cult. I'm playing main army Nids but I'm looking to consider all potential options, if this isn't the place for this, then again, where? Because if I brought it to the GSC thread the exact same logic could be used there to say this thread isn't about Nid or AM allies, and if I brought it to the AM thread I'd get that same thing to. This is where the Tyranid community is, this is where I am going to discuss Tyranids and GSC. Let's move on.

GSC are not tyranids, they are a separate army with separate entries in the codex lists

So yeah Strat N8 is right there has been a lot of GSC and AM talk and yeah a little allyship is OK but pure literal non tyranid lists is not really part of this thread.

Honestly I think that all things applicable to Nids should be here, even if its their allies. After all, people will come here for help with competitive tactics, and if the answer is in an ally they should be able to find it here. Now obviously if we're talking a mostly guard list or a mostly GSC list that would get better response in their threads, but we shouldnt discourage the discussion of other units here. When in doubt, allowing more to be talked about will only lead to a more productive conversation.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
GSC are not tyranids, they are a separate army with separate entries in the codex lists

So yeah Strat N8 is right there has been a lot of GSC and AM talk and yeah a little allyship is OK but pure literal non tyranid lists is not really part of this thread.

So we can't discuss competitive Nid builds in here because of allies?

Get over it, they are the same faction, they are separated into being allies gameplay wise, but in terms of options in the army is still a borderline Nids dataslate that is simply allowed to stand alone. In no other threads do people try and shut down talk of allies, least of all should we be shutting it down in ours especially since I'm pretty sure every Tyranid player to run any number of Genestealers at this point is likely going to be allying GSC now Purestrains are 10pts.

We are not going to stop talking about it in here, its productive to Tyranids competitive discussion, so again, move on, I'm not going to talk about this anymore because harking on this is disrupting the thread.

There isn't a strict set of rules in this thread. People are free to discuss GSC, Hive Fleets and AM of all flavours. This is a Tyranid tactica not a Hive Fleet tactica.

It's not off topic. Whining about it is and contributes literally nothing.

As SHUPPET says, if not here then where? If people want to discuss GSC and AM, it's getting discussed. As I said there is no rule forbidding this, just 1 persons personal preference

 SHUPPET wrote:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
GSC are not tyranids, they are a separate army with separate entries in the codex lists

So yeah Strat N8 is right there has been a lot of GSC and AM talk and yeah a little allyship is OK but pure literal non tyranid lists is not really part of this thread.

So we can't discuss competitive Nid builds in here because of allies?

Get over it, they are the same faction, the same army in the lore, they are separated into being allies gameplay wise, but in terms of options in the army is still a borderline Nids dataslate that is simply allowed to stand alone. In no other threads do people try and shut down talk of allies, least of all should we be shutting it down in ours especially since I'm pretty sure every Tyranid player to run any number of Genestealers at this point is likely going to be allying GSC now Purestrains are 10pts.

We are not going to stop talking about it in here, its productive to Tyranids competitive discussion, so again, move on, this is the last I'm going to say about it, harking on this is disrupting the thread.

And AM are also basically nids?

Yes in other threads they don't but in no other threads do they have a list which doesn't have anything of the Codex of the thread in it. And while I said I would move on if no one agreed someone did and brought up that very good point so no I'm not going to leave it alone based on that and you don't get to just shut the conversation down because you say so.

GSC +AM is not relevant in a Tyranid thread.

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
GSC are not tyranids, they are a separate army with separate entries in the codex lists

So yeah Strat N8 is right there has been a lot of GSC and AM talk and yeah a little allyship is OK but pure literal non tyranid lists is not really part of this thread.

I agree completely. For example, my army has shifted from all Tyranid Stealers to all GSC Stealers, and since I also have a detachment of AM, my current competitive list actually has no Tyranid Detachment. So I agree that such a list is more suited for the GSC thread.

However, right now the trend of the week seems to be how to shore up Tyranid weaknesses, which both GSC (and AM through GSC) have the ability to do. I think if the intent is to discuss how those units make a Tyranids army better, they belong here. Jifel is right though that our ally options are important options to know about, whether people decide to make usage of them or not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jaq Draco lives wrote:
OK fair enough I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything you understand just seems like the Tyranids are a pretty damn strong codex right now by themselves

But hey as I said I'll be quiet about it

Nah man you just expressed an opinion. No need to justify it. That's all anyone is doing here


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:


I'm not going to talk about this anymore because harking on this is disrupting the thread.

An important point. More discussion of tactics and less about where tactics belong is probably going to make all of us better generals


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SHUPPET wrote:
I'm strongly considering AM allies for the Hydra. A unit of 3 seems like top notch anti-air, and isn't terrible at shooting ground stuff either, each one having practically the damage output of dual Deathspitter Carnifex, except from further range, and then with Bolter+Stubber added on too.

Luke, what units are currently top tier for AM? And what have you been using for Nid allies? I see your list but I have no idea the rules for the FW am stuff and don't want to spend all that money on the IA:AM dex just to potentially not even want to use any of that stuff lol. Can you give me a crash course here?

The forge world Indices are great. If you're even thinking about using AM with your Nids, absolutely go to town. Totally worth $17. They have some good heavy mortar options (4d6 shots at 48" range, doesn't need LOS) as well as some good anti tank options at range. My personal favorite of those is the Earthshaker Battery. Basically it's an 80 point Basilisk. Same weapon but just the top half of the tank. Which is funny because that's literally what I'll use when I field them

Outside of forge world, the Wyverns are great. Basically the same thing as the quad heavy mortar but gains shred and loses 1 str.

The real standout from the codex is the Taurox prime. You're putting out 31 shots at 24" range. Sure they're all basically bolter shots, but it's 100 points with its weapons. That's just insane. And it hits on a 3+ if it didn't move. The only reason why this isn't the only unit people take is because you can't give it orders and you can't increase its ballistic skill in any way.

Which brings me to the last staple of competitive AM guns, which is not a gun at all - Sabre Defense Weapon Searchlight. Remember how Tau markerlights worked in 7th? (+1 BS to a single unit shooting at the unit you marked). Well yeah. These are like that, except they auto hit. And they do stack (so did ML but it bears mentioning). And they shoot at 48" range, not 36". So just a little good. Like 3 of these babies can make your conscript squad hit on 2's (meaning with an order in rapid fire range, a max squad of 50 is pumping out 200 shots...hitting on 2's. Sick. Not that your opponent will ever let these searchlights live longe enough for that to happen.

As far as anti air, I'm more inclined to either ignore those units or just say "well I have enough guns that I don't care if I hit worse" (or just use searchlights). I don't like -1 to hit on ground units as a general rule

Finally, my competitive list. I'm tweaking a few things to make the last points work, but I've actually gravitated entirely away from a Tyranid Detachment in favor of a GSC one (or two). My Nids list was mostly Stealers, and now they're all GSC so it just makes more sense. Units that are still drawing me back to Tyranids and making me certain that I'll still use Tyranids for non-tournament games:

1) Swarmy. I miss that old beat stick. Force multiplication is OP
2) Malanthrope. Did I mention that force multiplication was OP? Untargetable synapse force multiplication that could provide an army wide buff is super OP
3) Dimachaeron. I don't think he's super incredible but I love him so much
4) Exocrine. Super good at what he does. I just don't think that what he does is as valuable at the tournament level
5) Tyranid Psychic Table (specifically the horror, stacking with the Malanthrope and Mass Hypnosis.... ) as well as catalyst. Especially because Catalyst can be cast on GSC units, and it stacks with the 6+ FNP from the iconward.

Things I don't miss from Tyranids:

1) the broodlord. Patriarch is just better
2) tyrant guard. For a while, I believed they were good even on their own merit in CC, but a good opponent won't ever let them get there. And while the ablative wounds for Swarmy are a necessary evil, it is an evil.
4) Trygon taxi service. He's good when he gets to combat, but he's a very squishy dude for how beefy he looks on paper

So have a slowgrow league starting today at PL30

what should I take?

GodDamUser wrote:
So have a slowgrow league starting today at PL30

what should I take?

Are there restrictions on force org charts? Like do you have to have a legal force every step of the way?

 jifel wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
Genestealers are Elites in GSC.

Beat me to the punch there. But at 200 points for 20, I truly see no reason not to take 3...

Ha. I thought you would have quit 40k. I was following your blog, when you were still actively writing it. Found it amazing.

On topic:
The GSC Stealers are truly too cheap to not take them. However, I do not think this will stay like it is for long. Scion Command Squads got nerfed quickly as well. Anyway I just wanted to make people aware of the fact that GS are Elites in GSC. Meaning you would have to take a Vanguard Detachment, which forces you to spend a lot of points on GS.
Imho the Abberants are even worth considering from GSC, since they might help with heavy Tanks with their Power Hammers. And with Cult Ambush they can even reach the Knight etc. of the enemy.

I for one welcome our new pant stealing overlords.

 Astmeister wrote:

 jifel wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
Genestealers are Elites in GSC.

Beat me to the punch there. But at 200 points for 20, I truly see no reason not to take 3...

Ha. I thought you would have quit 40k. I was following your blog, when you were still actively writing it. Found it amazing.

On topic:
The GSC Stealers are truly too cheap to not take them. However, I do not think this will stay like it is for long. Scion Command Squads got nerfed quickly as well. Anyway I just wanted to make people aware of the fact that GS are Elites in GSC. Meaning you would have to take a Vanguard Detachment, which forces you to spend a lot of points on GS.
Imho the Abberants are even worth considering from GSC, since they might help with heavy Tanks with their Power Hammers. And with Cult Ambush they can even reach the Knight etc. of the enemy.

yeah I feel like you guys are right about what the mistake is and it's going to likely be corrected soon

I played my first game and and found it interesting and reasonably fun. I will say that lictors are so weird that they were kind of useful. Mine prevented overwatch vs other units by charging first (at -1 to hit overwatch can't hit, right?), caused some plasma sentinels to blow up, got into terrain and were hard to dig out. They could really use some kind of hit and run rule though.

Spore mines were only useful for blocking a charge and and because my opponent thought they were dangerous.

Old One eye is, indeed, the man.

The speed of the big bugs in impressive. Weird that termigants are so slow though.

I hate the new terrain rules or lack thereoff. They are very jammy and situational where they used to be my best friend running nids.

 kestral wrote:
I played my first game and and found it interesting and reasonably fun. I will say that lictors are so weird that they were kind of useful. Mine prevented overwatch vs other units by charging first (at -1 to hit overwatch can't hit, right?), caused some plasma sentinels to blow up, got into terrain and were hard to dig out. They could really use some kind of hit and run rule though.

Spore mines were only useful for blocking a charge and and because my opponent thought they were dangerous.

Old One eye is, indeed, the man.

The speed of the big bugs in impressive. Weird that termigants are so slow though.

I hate the new terrain rules or lack thereoff. They are very jammy and situational where they used to be my best friend running nids.

Overwatch always hits on 6+ regardless of modifiers.
Concerning the -1 to hit:
A Plasma gun blows up on a roll of 2, instead of a roll of 1. However, a roll of 1 does not cause it to blow up. This is weird but RAW.

 Astmeister wrote:

 jifel wrote:

 Astmeister wrote:
Genestealers are Elites in GSC.

Beat me to the punch there. But at 200 points for 20, I truly see no reason not to take 3...

Ha. I thought you would have quit 40k. I was following your blog, when you were still actively writing it. Found it amazing.

I'm flattered you remember! Quit blogging when I went to college as I was going months between games, but I've upped my play time lately and was considering writing again...

I take back what I said a while ago about Dakkafexes being great. They aren't bad, but my perception of what an MC is was being affected by my experience in 7th. They are decent though, and should probably make up the core of your army if you going with a gunline.

Stonecrushers with Flail seem amazing however, but we really need that errata so we can know exactly HOW it works. As long as it doesn't replace attacks, it should give it coverage vs both mobs and heavy units. Time will tell.



A unit that I think is flying under the radar is Spinefist Ravener. They are each rolling 9 dice a turn in combat, and give them Red Terror support and the majority of those dice are 2+ S4 attacks and re-rolling on miss.

The easy comparison at the price point would be 3x Devilgants, who also do 9 dice a turn in shooting, at S4. Raveners however are tankier, have 12" movespeed, and you get way more because you don't need Trygon transports. I think these things are likely going to be the core of my army, dependent only on how Stonecrushers turn out after the FAQ.

 jifel wrote:


I'm flattered you remember! Quit blogging when I went to college as I was going months between games, but I've upped my play time lately and was considering writing again...

Cool. I will keep following if you continue the blog and remember you writing about going to college soon. Good luck with the studies, man!

@Shuppet:
I think you might give Raveners a bit too much credit. They are one of my favorite models and thus I own 9 of them. However they can just use their "9 Attacks" in your own turn, since they cannot shoot in the opponents phase. Also they rely on getting into combat to fullfill their damage potential. But I agree that they can be very good in clearing screening units.

 Astmeister wrote:

 kestral wrote:
I played my first game and and found it interesting and reasonably fun. I will say that lictors are so weird that they were kind of useful. Mine prevented overwatch vs other units by charging first (at -1 to hit overwatch can't hit, right?), caused some plasma sentinels to blow up, got into terrain and were hard to dig out. They could really use some kind of hit and run rule though.

Spore mines were only useful for blocking a charge and and because my opponent thought they were dangerous.

Old One eye is, indeed, the man.

The speed of the big bugs in impressive. Weird that termigants are so slow though.

I hate the new terrain rules or lack thereoff. They are very jammy and situational where they used to be my best friend running nids.

Overwatch always hits on 6+ regardless of modifiers.
Concerning the -1 to hit:
A Plasma gun blows up on a roll of 2, instead of a roll of 1. However, a roll of 1 does not cause it to blow up. This is weird but RAW.

A roll can never go below 1, so with a -1 modifier and overcharge, plasma blows up on a 1 or 2. (Think this is in the designer's commentary).

That is interesting zerosignal. Thanks for the comment.

I've been experimenting with various tyranid options, and I got in a couple more games yesterday.

I am completely perplexed what you guys see in biovores. Neither of my games had ideal targets for them, but I still feel that they are incredibly underwhelming for the points costs. Just not nearly enough damage output. Might be my experience in the 1st game skewed me a bit, because on turns 1-3 my squad of 3 biovores got 1 hit per turn, and rolled a 1 on the damage, so it was turn 4 before they did their 1st wound, but even if I'd been hitting lights out and averaging 2 mortal wounds a turn, they are so amazingly point inefficient compared to the rest of my list..

Took traditional Dakkafexes against a guy playing his 1st game of 8th. I knew they wouldn't be good, but I played them wrong, and forgot to use the tail attack, so they felt extremely abysmal in CC. Should have remembered the tail.

One game featured a single dakkajet. My Genestealer + Dakkafex list felt a little lacking in tools to threaten it, and it put a pretty good hurt on the stealers. I did manage to smite it for 5.

@Tag, did those Biovore misses do anything useful with their Spores though? Did they absorb any shots that would've gone into other units? Did they block deep-strikes? Did those misses change charge lanes?

Biovore do, arguably more tactical work when they miss than when they hit. :-p

tag8833 wrote:
I've been experimenting with various tyranid options, and I got in a couple more games yesterday.

I am completely perplexed what you guys see in biovores. Neither of my games had ideal targets for them, but I still feel that they are incredibly underwhelming for the points costs. Just not nearly enough damage output. Might be my experience in the 1st game skewed me a bit, because on turns 1-3 my squad of 3 biovores got 1 hit per turn, and rolled a 1 on the damage, so it was turn 4 before they did their 1st wound, but even if I'd been hitting lights out and averaging 2 mortal wounds a turn, they are so amazingly point inefficient compared to the rest of my list..

Took traditional Dakkafexes against a guy playing his 1st game of 8th. I knew they wouldn't be good, but I played them wrong, and forgot to use the tail attack, so they felt extremely abysmal in CC. Should have remembered the tail.

One game featured a single dakkajet. My Genestealer + Dakkafex list felt a little lacking in tools to threaten it, and it put a pretty good hurt on the stealers. I did manage to smite it for 5.

Biovores are not huge damage dealers but can instead reliably ping down a couple of wounds even on the heaviest targets. Also the major strength comes from the fact that they can block lines with the spore mines you place, when you do not hit with them.
Oh and they can now target units which are hiding. This can be very good under certain circumstances.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also there is an interesting article about a tournament in the UK, where a Girlyman + 5 Stormraven list dominated everything.

See here:
https://www.warhammer-tactics.com/single-post/2017/07/03/How-much-wood-could-a-wood-chuck-chuck-if-wood-chuck-was-a-Stormraven

Do we have any plan on how to deal with that? It is of course very similar to the 2 Stormraven + 3 Stormhawks we talked about earlier. However, this seems a lot more brutal... :-(

Flyers being immune to assault shouldn't be a thing. I get that its thematic, but it turns the game into a coinflip of what list you brought in far too many circumstances. There should be a penalty for assaulting them just like for shootingg, but not literal invulnerability.

Astmeister wrote:

He got a LOT better actually, probably the most improved model in the army. Cheaper points cost, 3+ armor while retaining the 5+ Invul, ability to pick their powers, Scything Talons that actually do stuff, and Psychic Overload no longer requires a psychic test to activate and just causes a mortal wound on a 2+ instead of the convoluted Ld check it used to require (and as a bonus, since it isn't a shooting attack it can be allocated to characters hiding in the ranks). It also gets an innate +1 to manifest powers that isn't effected by damage (unlike the Lord of Change), so Smite goes off on a 4+ (and deals D6 damage on a 9+) and Tyranid powers go off on 5+, making it far more reliable than the other psykers if you really need a particular power to be cast.

I'm GLAD someone else thinks that they have improved. I've been wanting to run one since they first came out, but was never a fan of the last 2 editions of 40K. So I have a question for you about this unit.

What battlefield roll would this unit play? Support or a Front Line unit? Psychic powers make it more of a support, but the unique power that it posses makes you want to throw it up front and hit a lot of things. Especially with is physical stats. Still perplexed how to use this unit.