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What if zoeys are changed so that they are bought as a 1-4 or something like that but operate independently, are deployed as separate units and are considered separate units.

Never know - GW may change various parts of the rules for this thing (I know wishful thinking)

Zoanthropes should be changed to smite being calculated based on the number of models in the unit.

Something like it inflicts 1 mortal wound for each model.

I'd rather Zoans just be taken in units of 1-6, same for Venomthropes.

I hate this 3+ crap..... I dont evne have 3 Venomthropes i have 2 b.c its always been units of 1+

I know it all changes in just a few short weeks, but before the codex drops we've got a local store tourney and I'm thinking of running the following.

2k
Battallion
Broodlord
Broodlord
Malanthrope

20 Genestealers
20 Genestealers
30 Hormagaunts
30 Hormagaunts

Trygon

30 Gargoyles

Patrol
Patriarch
5 Acolyte Hybrids

Supreme Command
Company Commander (Warlord, 5+ refund CP trait and 5+ gain CP from enemy strat relic)
Primaris Psyker
Primaris Psyker
Primaris Psyker
Primaris Psyker

Reasoning -

With the malanthrope, 110 bodies on the field should take a lot of firepower to remove. Hormagaunts are extremely good at one thing, locking things down. Gargoyles are faster and will take priority to stop, genestealers obviously hit harder. So the enemy has tough choices to make. One GS unit can ride with the Trygon, which will protect one of my hammer units and give me flexibility on deployment. The Trygon is a decent hammer itself.

With Broodlord and Patriarch I have access to two separate -1 to hit spells. I also will have the 5+ FNP. The four primaris are just there for helping with denying smite spam, doing the smite spam themselves, though they all know 2 extra power so they all can choose to use the AM mortal wounds abilities instead.

Company Commander should, statistically, give me another 2 CP from my own CP, and most likely another 2 from the opponent.

The total is 1944, so I still have 56 points left.

From what I've seen in my local meta, very few armies have enough firepower to clear that much chaff before it matters. I have a lack of shooting to clear out chaff myself, but, I think smite will deal with smaller screens, and larger screens should be close enough to enemy lines that I may be able to use the 6+6 combat movement of the hormagaunt to reach other units. It's not the best counter, but I think it will work fairly well.

With the last 56 pts I can put adrenal glands on the Trygon and all the Stealers, or I can pick up an additional unit of acolytes, or I can grab rippers and a heavy saw for the acolytes, or something else entirely.

Thoughts?

You might want to consider swapping the company commander for a Lord Commissar, as there doesn't appear to be anything to use orders on and having a Commissar shuts down the kaboom caused by a Primaris Psyker periling themselves to death. Given you already have a GSC detachment and a Patriarch you may also want to convert one of the Hive Fleet Genestealer squads to a Purestrain squad, allowing them to ambush alongside the Patriarch while the other brood goes with the Trygon.

As for the Acolytes, given the amount of melee capability the list already has you might be better served with Neophyte squads in their place for infantry clearing. If not, I'd probably try to find points to give the Acolytes Demolition Charges for a bit of flexibility without breaking the bank (smaller squads are better kept "cheap" and disposable - save the Heavy Rock weapons for vehicle mounted units and larger squads).

Hope that helps and good luck!

Hoping this new book makes my old 2nd ed tyranid army useable again.
Tried it before in last edition but it was a joke lol.
I just love the nostalgia of running the old metal models.

Only downside is it looks like I'll have to pick up more zoeys and vores now as 6 of each may not be enough.

Am kind of sad about the change to lash whips however.
Got 12 warriors with whip and sword, so will have to pick up more swords of eBay to swap them out.

What is your second edition tyranids?

Currently I have:

2x hive tyrant (1 venom, 1 barbed, both sword and whip)

12x sword and whip warriors.
5x twin bone sword warriors.
8x warriors with devourers.
2x warriors with venom cannons.
20x hormagaunts.

3x lictors.
6x zoanthrope.

6x biovores.
3x screamer killer fex.

And of it counts:

Armorcast exocrine x2
Armorcast malefactor x2

All are 2nd edition metals though so I'm stuck to their load outs.
So all warriors have rending claws.
No options but 2x talons on the fex etc.

It's restrictive, but I love the old models.
Just trying to get the time to get it all painted up.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Your "opponent" will NOT care what color your models are, as long as if you are using "different" fleets they are not identical in looks.

If you think players are suppose to know 80-90 essential "chapter tactics colors", then you are the exaggerated one.

ESPECIALLY when its NEVER been a rule before and STILL isnt a rule now to have painted models based on rules.

Players in tournament will care about whatever rules they can use to get an advantage. And that's not even a bad thing, they are simply following the rules as well. It's that simple.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Your "opponent" will NOT care what color your models are, as long as if you are using "different" fleets they are not identical in looks.

If you think players are suppose to know 80-90 essential "chapter tactics colors", then you are the exaggerated one.

ESPECIALLY when its NEVER been a rule before and STILL isnt a rule now to have painted models based on rules.

Players in tournament will care about whatever rules they can use to get an advantage. And that's not even a bad thing, they are simply following the rules as well. It's that simple.

But its not a rule so it doesnt matter.

I actually think it is a rule, it would be covered under the spirit of what you see is what you get, when it comes to model representation.

Say someone have an army with several different detachments of spacemarines that are identical except for the chapter tactics. And I am looking at your army list to identefy your units and I am looking at the table where there are, there is no way to identefy witch is witch. If the players can not identefy witch is witch there is a problem there. This even aplies if they are all unpainted, even if there are no rules requiering painted models.

Also please do not misquote me to to say players need to know 80 to 90 colours. This is a bad way to discredit me.

A more realistic thing would be playing against a fully painted ultramarines army, but fielding the ranged models as raven guard for the harder to hit strategem, and fielding the more close combat units as salamanders to get the re-rolls.

I also think you will find people who has played warhammer over several years can probably name 80-90 chapters. I know two players who can do this IRL. I would suspect there more then enough on the forum who can do this, so it is not like the claim your represent as impossible is impossible. First founding alone has 18 colour schemes. Add in second founding on loyalist chapters and you are well over halfway.

And Spirit of the game =/= rules....

So your telling me there will not be 80 of those in total that has their own "color" scheme?

SM: UM, WS, IH, Salamnd, RG, IF, CF, BT, GK, BA, DA
Nids: Leviathan, Behemoth, Kraken, Gorgon, Dagon
CSM: AL, BL, EC, IW, NL, Ren, WB, WE
Chaos: etc...
Tau: etc...
Eldar: Etc..
DE: Etc..
Necrons: Etc..
All the other armies not mentioned many of those are getting multi ones some tho are stand alone.

Then what if the rules change again? and again? you expected to re-paint your army each time? No, just call it <My Random Army name> and it uses <What every chapter i like> and be done with it.

Im not saying make each different chapter detachment unnoticeable, i'm just saying its not a rule and very silly to ask players to re-paint there armies for a temp rule b.c 1% of the players are QQing on the internet.

Spelling

Guys. Take the paint stuff elsewhere

Paint wise as long as it is clear that these models are one Hive fleet and these are a different one it dosen't matter if they are neon pink and chekerboard (maby they ate too many Harliquins) as long as they are easily identifiable as different.

 luke1705 wrote:
Guys. Take the paint stuff elsewhere

This. Please. Thank you.

Question (I have some converted Biovores, i am boycotting finecast).

I know Biovores are 60mm, but did they always come on 60mm? I remember many pictures having both 60mm AND 40mm, so i did 40mm since i had those bases and there was pictures with them (on the GW website). I thought i saw my old friends buy them and came with 40mm, as well. Tho the 6th ed codex shows a 60mm.

Does anyone else have theirs on 40mm like me?

Sooo I've been playing my Tyranids in preperation of getting ready for the Codex drop. And I am super sad to see a couple of my old favorites suck but very happy with the army overall from index rules.

Zoanthropes. They are expensive and not worth their points. And their warpblast is a farcry of what it used to be. I hope they completely rewrite this rule in the codex.

Malaceptor is one of my favorite looking models, too bad it sucks. Better than 7th. Still hot trash. Hope they completely rework this model's rules.

Carnifexes, need a slight points drop. Other than that like them! Though not having old one eye is not proper if you are running more than two.

Venonthropes, need to be able to do more damage in melee. Give them WS3 and 3 attacks base. If not, allow their spore to block monsterious creatures to make them more useful.

Lictors: I would like the lictors to have 4 attacks base. Otherwise pretty good.

Hive Tyrant: really really really really either needs a Relic to give him +1 to saves (2+/4++)* cannot be taken with wings* or recive a sizable drop in points or a craptton more wounds added. As of right now, I have yet to play a game where he isn't focused fired and kill within the first two rounds of the game. If your opponent knows anything about Tyranids. He will throw Laz Cannons, missle, grav, melta, plasma at it. And to be blunt the Hive Tyrant is not tough enough to withstand the focus fire he gets. Other than that, great model.

Overall, the Tyranids feel and play pretty good from the index. Despite my nitpicks, I like the way they play, though their biggest problem imho is their big bugs are overall too expensive. Slide their points down across the whole faction and I think the army will be gold.

Thoughts?

Instead of more wounds, what the HT needs is 1 wound less. With 9 they'd be an amazing unit.

But to be fair, it has always been a thing that you could shoot the bigger units in the book so I highly doubt that will be the case.

 Tsol wrote:
Sooo I've been playing my Tyranids in preperation of getting ready for the Codex drop. And I am super sad to see a couple of my old favorites suck but very happy with the army overall from index rules.

Zoanthropes. They are expensive and not worth their points. And their warpblast is a farcry of what it used to be. I hope they completely rewrite this rule in the codex.

Malaceptor is one of my favorite looking models, too bad it sucks. Better than 7th. Still hot trash. Hope they completely rework this model's rules.

Carnifexes, need a slight points drop. Other than that like them! Though not having old one eye is not proper if you are running more than two.

Venonthropes, need to be able to do more damage in melee. Give them WS3 and 3 attacks base. If not, allow their spore to block monsterious creatures to make them more useful.

Lictors: I would like the lictors to have 4 attacks base. Otherwise pretty good.

Hive Tyrant: really really really really either needs a Relic to give him +1 to saves (2+/4++)* cannot be taken with wings* or recive a sizable drop in points or a craptton more wounds added. As of right now, I have yet to play a game where he isn't focused fired and kill within the first two rounds of the game. If your opponent knows anything about Tyranids. He will throw Laz Cannons, missle, grav, melta, plasma at it. And to be blunt the Hive Tyrant is not tough enough to withstand the focus fire he gets. Other than that, great model.

Overall, the Tyranids feel and play pretty good from the index. Despite my nitpicks, I like the way they play, though their biggest problem imho is their big bugs are overall too expensive. Slide their points down across the whole faction and I think the army will be gold.

Thoughts?

Sad that, wanting to get into Tyranids, some of these are my favourite too (Hive Tyrants, Carnifexes, and Zoanthropes), and it's sad to hear they're a bit below par. Can I ask, what units have you found to be useful and strong in your games?

Carnifex's are not bad, honestly they are great in non tournament (GT) games/lists.

Zoans howevery are not good :( at least IMO

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Carnifex's are not bad, honestly they are great in non tournament (GT)

I strongly disagree. I play in a very casual group and I frequently ran carnifexes in my first couple of games of 8th and they were awful. They could barely dent a tank with claws and THREE (3) got bogged down in a few Tac Marine units when given two scything talons.

4 attacks at WS4+ is awful.

I also dislike the idea of units of zoanthropes. They should be units of 1+ and get access to normal Smite and be something like add a mortal would for each additonal Zoanthrope within 6"

 Strat_N8 wrote:
You might want to consider swapping the company commander for a Lord Commissar, as there doesn't appear to be anything to use orders on and having a Commissar shuts down the kaboom caused by a Primaris Psyker periling themselves to death. Given you already have a GSC detachment and a Patriarch you may also want to convert one of the Hive Fleet Genestealer squads to a Purestrain squad, allowing them to ambush alongside the Patriarch while the other brood goes with the Trygon.

As for the Acolytes, given the amount of melee capability the list already has you might be better served with Neophyte squads in their place for infantry clearing. If not, I'd probably try to find points to give the Acolytes Demolition Charges for a bit of flexibility without breaking the bank (smaller squads are better kept "cheap" and disposable - save the Heavy Rock weapons for vehicle mounted units and larger squads).

Hope that helps and good luck!

Interesting idea for the Lord Com, but with the very low chance of dying to a perils, I don't think he warrants the points increase and loss of (possible) cp.

I do have the points to change one GS squad to purestrain, and it certainly isn't a bad idea. In some matchups I can force the fire onto the 90 swarm bodies, though I don't like the 33% chance of a loss of control in deployment. Definitely a good idea and something I will consider.

I had thought of using the neophytes, but I'm not sure 10 neophytes will provide much actual infantry clearing ability? Against T3, 5 wounds before saves, T4, 3.33 wounds. So might clear 1-2 scouts or 3 conscripts. On a 5 from ambush they double the damage, or on a 5/6 can move into flamer range, which would be much more effective with a pair of flamers (lose average 2xs3 hits and gain average 7xs4 hits). Could also do shotguns, on a 5 for ambush you have a 50% chance of getting close enough to get the S4. Interesting possibility. Not sold on it for sure, but definitely something I'll think about.

Other inputs? These are good ideas, I'd like to hear more.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:


I also dislike the idea of units of zoanthropes. They should be units of 1+ and get access to normal Smite and be something like add a mortal would for each additonal Zoanthrope within 6"

Agreed. They either need to be able to cast smite on a PER MODEL basis or they need to be able to be split up on deployment but taken as a unit like the Carnifex current is.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Question (I have some converted Biovores, i am boycotting finecast).

I know Biovores are 60mm, but did they always come on 60mm? I remember many pictures having both 60mm AND 40mm, so i did 40mm since i had those bases and there was pictures with them (on the GW website). I thought i saw my old friends buy them and came with 40mm, as well. Tho the 6th ed codex shows a 60mm.

Does anyone else have theirs on 40mm like me?

Pretty sure they have been 40mm. Pyrovores (often used for biovores since bios look so dumb) came on 60s.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Carnifex's are not bad, honestly they are great in non tournament (GT)

I strongly disagree. I play in a very casual group and I frequently ran carnifexes in my first couple of games of 8th and they were awful. They could barely dent a tank with claws and THREE (3) got bogged down in a few Tac Marine units when given two scything talons.

4 attacks at WS4+ is awful.

I also dislike the idea of units of zoanthropes. They should be units of 1+ and get access to normal Smite and be something like add a mortal would for each additonal Zoanthrope within 6"

Ah, that makes since why you dont like them, but i take them cheap with MST, 1 more attack and and re-rill 1's, i dont think iw ould ever use the claws, 4+ to hit with a -1 to hit is just stupid. I wish it didnt have -1 to hit against vehicles.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Question (I have some converted Biovores, i am boycotting finecast).

I know Biovores are 60mm, but did they always come on 60mm? I remember many pictures having both 60mm AND 40mm, so i did 40mm since i had those bases and there was pictures with them (on the GW website). I thought i saw my old friends buy them and came with 40mm, as well. Tho the 6th ed codex shows a 60mm.

Does anyone else have theirs on 40mm like me?

Pretty sure they have been 40mm. Pyrovores (often used for biovores since bios look so dumb) came on 60s.

The website now says 60mm and the 6/7th book shows them on a large base, thats why i asked.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Carnifex's are not bad, honestly they are great in non tournament (GT)

I strongly disagree. I play in a very casual group and I frequently ran carnifexes in my first couple of games of 8th and they were awful. They could barely dent a tank with claws and THREE (3) got bogged down in a few Tac Marine units when given two scything talons.

4 attacks at WS4+ is awful.

I also dislike the idea of units of zoanthropes. They should be units of 1+ and get access to normal Smite and be something like add a mortal would for each additonal Zoanthrope within 6"

Ah, that makes since why you dont like them, but i take them cheap with MST, 1 more attack and and re-rill 1's, i dont think iw ould ever use the claws, 4+ to hit with a -1 to hit is just stupid. I wish it didnt have -1 to hit against vehicles.

I said I did take them with 2x scything talons the second time. They were still crap.

I dont think they are good AT or AI, they ar meant for Light vehicles/artillery/bikes, things with 6 or less wounds, getting 2 wounding hits in isnt that hard (5 attacks re-roll 1's wounding on 3+) if both wounds go through thats 6 damage, the only problem is getting there.

But i understand why you dont like them and i dont disagree with you, just i like them for their Niche and price, tho i do wish they would be 3+ instead of 4+.... idk why they are 3+ kinda stupid.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:

No we don't. Forgeworld isn't codex, and not even allowed in some tournaments (like the big ones we have over here). Venomthropes are hot garbage atm. A -1 to hit feels necessary to have a chance against AM gunlines and Tau commander spam.

Not meaning to come across as rude, but local restrictions have no baring on the capabilities of the army as a whole. As far as design goes, Tyranids already have access to a -1 to hit effect from two different sources whos primary purpose is to provide said effect bubble (the viability of those sources not withstanding) which makes the likelihood of seeing a global -1 to hit trait unlikely. I'd love to see it from a raw power perspective (means one either has a global -2 and can laugh off gunlines or at worst a global -1 without having to dedicate points to support units) but as of now I don't expect it.

Forgeworld isn't part of the codex. Do you tink GW play test codices with Forgeworld in mind?

As mentioned Eldar got several ways to stack enemy penalties to hit, so I doubt our sorry Venomthropes would get in the way of an army wide -1 to hit for say, Hive Fleet Leviathan.

I imagine they do, even if its "not official."

Yeah I think Eldar are proof of concept that GW doesn't care about mass -2 to hit, even with -3 or -4 as a possibility.

Looks like I need a second Malanthrope.