Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

little-killer wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

little-killer wrote:


Eh eh eh, let's see some positive, the fnp from painboy affects all units with a model within 6" of the painboy.

Yup, nothing like getting a 6+ FNP save for 2 maybe 3 units that are lumped together.....All for the low low price of 40pts, 90 if hes on a bike.

Since there is no template you can stack as much units as you want, so you don't have to buy one painboy per big unit.

Yep, that will be a lot of fun, stacking several units next to a painboy just to get a 6+ FNP. That won't slow the game down at all..

Its a nerf, its a crappy move by GW and everyone knows it.

 Crazyterran wrote:
Rhinos doubled in points, drop pods tripled. What are you on about?

trukk 76 points ws 5+ bs 5+ S 6 but goes down with wounds t6 w 10 L 6 sv 4+

rhino 70 points ws 5+ bs 3+ but goes down as it gets hurt, s6 T7 w 10 L8 sv 3+

trukks do not include guns either. so 6 more points for -2 BS movement is identical at full W but the trukk is slightly faster as wounds taken. it has -1 T same S before wounds, and a worse save... game set. match. rhino is better for less points but at this point that is unsurprising, space marines get more for less points than orks.

drop pods should have always been more expensive than they are but again they were for marines so until now they had been undercosted. I do think they were over adjusted btu they should have been 60 points since the beginning

Trukkz were 30pts (and I considered them to be over priced) Rhinos were 35pts? cant remember. But yeah, also its 12pts to put a rokkit on it, so 88pts for a 1/3rd chance to hit something with a rokkit. Or to hit things with its incredible 3 attacks at S6.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Rhinos doubled in points, drop pods tripled. What are you on about?

trukk 76 points ws 5+ bs 5+ S 6 but goes down with wounds t6 w 10 L 6 sv 4+

rhino 70 points ws 5+ bs 3+ but goes down as it gets hurt, s6 T7 w 10 L8 sv 3+

trukks do not include guns either. so 6 more points for -2 BS movement is identical at full W but the trukk is slightly faster as wounds taken. it has -1 T same S before wounds, and a worse save... game set. match. rhino is better for less points but at this point that is unsurprising, space marines get more for less points than orks.

drop pods should have always been more expensive than they are but again they were for marines so until now they had been undercosted. I do think they were over adjusted btu they should have been 60 points since the beginning

Like always, long live the imperium. Thanks again GW.

SemperMortis wrote:
Well lets take a look. Our TL Weapons just got MARGINALLY better. TL Dakkagunz went from 1.6 hits per shooting phase to 2. TL Heavy Bolters just went from 2.6 hits per shooting phase to 4.

space marines rely on shooting much more than orks. sure their heavy weapon got buffed there but so did ours. Our units carry assault weapons almost universally... sure we probably wont hit with them, but we can take pot shots at things and still run up the board too. Combine this with the new waaagh, and your units can do Kunnin stuff like move+advance, shoot at something to the left, and then assault something up the middle. Not to mention that shootas is now free and if you don't take them you get to shoot while engaged in combat. Sure space marines are hitting more in the shooting phase, but they didnt get +1 str and what effectively amounts to initiative 10. They are also having to deal with morale for the first time in the history of 40k pretty much... Apples and oranges.

Ork Cover just went form 4+ Ruins cover to 5+ Ruins cover but with AP -1 weapons we are back up to 6+ Space Marines just went from 4+ Ruins cover to 2+ Ruins cover, against AP-1 weapons they are back to their 3+ Saves.

Orks never depended on saves to work, and I've never had a good time taking things like 'ardboys. The points I sunk into protecting the boys just made it hurt worse when I picked them up. Orks have a much better protection than they used to in that you can get inside of a trukk or wagon now if you loss averse. Used to be about half your boys died wen th trukk did, and they always died fast.

Our FNP Just went from 5+ to 6+. our KFF only benefits a unit if its ENTIRELY within the bubble. Our Cybork stayed just as crappy as before (6+ FNP roll, doesnt stack and you cant take both that and a regular FNP roll)

Again, orks are not a save army. Necrons are an army that tries to weather attrition by bulwarking against it. Orks throw numbers at their problems and leave the math to the opponent. The fact that those tools exist are nice, but if you start building lists that depend on them to work you will have a bad time because the lynchpins can be removed. Weight of numbers and speed cant be erased easily by the opponent.

Our Best unit Warbikers went up in price 50%, battlewagons went up 50%

Only if you compare them to the last version of the game. we are not playing 7th, we are playing 8th now. Everything went up in cost for every army, and comparing a warbikers cost to what it used to cost is kinda like trying to compare them to how much a certain spell costs in mtg. They are not the same game. Wait for a metal to start to show over the next 2-3 weeks.

Trukkz MORE THEN DOUBLED IN PRICE.

Again, everything went up like this. You know what also happened to trukks? They became fast as hell now (they can move and then advance and still shoot), are more than twice as survivable, and suddenly went from killing about under 1/2 of the embarked passengers to killing 1/6th.

A trukk may cost a bit more than a rhino, but so far its like the only cheap transport in the game that can arm itself with CC weapons of any worth, has assault weapons for running and shooting, and if its near a warboss will be able to move, run shoot and charge all in the same turn. It also has 2 more seats than a rhino, and its open topped, so on the turn that you move, run shoot and assault, the duderz inside get to blast people their THEIR assault weapons.

Ohh and just to really put a bit of lemon juice in the open wound, our Mek Gunz went from T7 3+ Armor save to T5 5+ Armor save, and guess what? their price stayed the same.

Artillery was broken in the last edition. If I have to pay the price of my mek gunz being toned down slightly in order to have things like SM thunderfire canons act reasonably then I am happy to pay that price. Artillery is still fun to play

 davou wrote:


space marines rely on shooting much more than orks. sure their heavy weapon got buffed there but so did ours. Our units carry assault weapons almost universally... sure we probably wont hit with them, but we can take pot shots at things and still run up the board too. Combine this with the new waaagh, and your units can do Kunnin stuff like move+advance, shoot at something to the left, and then assault something up the middle. Not to mention that shootas is now free and if you don't take them you get to shoot while engaged in combat. Sure space marines are hitting more in the shooting phase, but they didnt get +1 str and what effectively amounts to initiative 10. They are also having to deal with morale for the first time in the history of 40k pretty much... Apples and oranges.

We already had Waaagh as a rule, now its even worse because everyone has to be within 6in of that warboss for it to work. We got +1 strength hooray the world is ours! We also lost the +1 attack for having 2 CC weapons and we possibly lost the bonus attack for charging so overall we lost CC Ability. And SMs got the same "initiative 10" that we did so long as they charge, and im pretty sure their movement is better then ours so they have a decent chance to pull it off. As far as heavy weapons? Yeah lets talk about heavy weapons. ALL OF OUR BLAST WEAPONS SUCK NOW. ALL OF THEM! let me spell that out for you. We now have to roll to hit for blast weapons so no longer can we rely on scattering to get us at least 3-4 hits. KillKannon now fires D6 shots, which is terribly because even if you roll a 6 that means your only hitting twice on average. Realistically its going to hit once per turn and cost MORE THEN A LASCANNON. Even though its both weaker, shorter ranged and has less AP then the lascannon. Or how about the tried and true Lobba? Yup that sucks as well. Or we have the weapons on our beloved Stompa, ALL ARE GARBAGE NOW.

 davou wrote:

Orks never depended on saves to work, and I've never had a good time taking things like 'ardboys. The points I sunk into protecting the boys just made it hurt worse when I picked them up. Orks have a much better protection than they used to in that you can get inside of a trukk or wagon now if you loss averse. Used to be about half your boys died wen th trukk did, and they always died fast.

you bet your butt we depended on saves. We just had to pay more and be more kunning to get them. Hiding boyz in terrain, taking 1-3 Painboyz in multiple detachments that kind of thing. All of our saves got significantly worse against most of the weapons in this game....except for bolters, ohh thank god for that miracle. Trukkz are more durable now, as you pointed out, twice as durable. FOR MORE THEN TWICE THE COST. in the same way that a Landraider became significantly more durable but dropped in price.

 davou wrote:

Again, orks are not a save army. Necrons are an army that tries to weather attrition by bulwarking against it. Orks throw numbers at their problems and leave the math to the opponent. The fact that those tools exist are nice, but if you start building lists that depend on them to work you will have a bad time because the lynchpins can be removed. Weight of numbers and speed cant be erased easily by the opponent.

Really? What kind of 2nd Grade meta do you live in? Ive played more games where all my trukkz Die turn 1 and most of my Warbikers get liquidated turn 1-2. Ive also stopped playing green tide because its both boring and because all my opponents know how to counter it easily, not even mentioning the fact that Eldar and SM can literally just remove it from play before it gets across the table.

 davou wrote:

Only if you compare them to the last version of the game. we are not playing 7th, we are playing 8th now. Everything went up in cost for every army, and comparing a warbikers cost to what it used to cost is kinda like trying to compare them to how much a certain spell costs in mtg. They are not the same game. Wait for a metal to start to show over the next 2-3 weeks.

This has to be the dumbest argument possible. What else do you compare them to? 8th edition orks are compared to 7th edition orks, which were compared to 4-6th edition orks (we didnt get a codex for 5th or 6th).

You are right that everything went up in cost, except from what ive seen, Ork prices have gone up HIGHER then similar units in other armies. Trukkz are 6pts more expensive then Rhinos when before they were 5 points cheaper. Stompas, the most over priced POS thing in the game went up in price drastically. I can keep going but its ridiculous.

 davou wrote:

Again, everything went up like this. You know what also happened to trukks? They became fast as hell now (they can move and then advance and still shoot), are more than twice as survivable, and suddenly went from killing about under 1/2 of the embarked passengers to killing 1/6th.

A trukk may cost a bit more than a rhino, but so far its like the only cheap transport in the game that can arm itself with CC weapons of any worth, has assault weapons for running and shooting, and if its near a warboss will be able to move, run shoot and charge all in the same turn. It also has 2 more seats than a rhino, and its open topped, so on the turn that you move, run shoot and assault, the duderz inside get to blast people their THEIR assault weapons.

Actually Trukkz became slower, and less useful for alpha strike assaults. Move 6, disembark 6, run D6 charge 2D6. Now? its disembark, move run assault. So yeah, slower. and they already ignored moving and shooting rules because they were fast vehicles. And unless that warboss is on a bike or in the trukk it won't be nearby. Again, we could do all of this already. You literally wasted an entire paragraph explaining that trukkz remained exactly the same as last edition (with the notable 8th changes like armor/WS/Attacks) but are now worse in almost every way possible compared to a Rhino, and yet the rhino is still cheaper.

 davou wrote:

Artillery was broken in the last edition. If I have to pay the price of my mek gunz being toned down slightly in order to have things like SM thunderfire canons act reasonably then I am happy to pay that price. Artillery is still fun to play

Artillery was broken for us? really? Again what kind of meta do you play in where Mek Gunz were Broken? the only thing that made mek gunz good was their durability which is now in the dumpster, on fire. Artillery will not be fun to play because they will die the first time someone sneezes at them.

To summarize all that ive seen so far. GW Took away all our fun randomness things that made the army interesting, then they took away our CC ability and now this edition they are FORCING US to play a footslogging horde style army because theyve effectively nerfed EVERYTHING ELSE in our codex into uselessness.

It looks like you can abuse badly worded rules to use ammo runts as ablative wounds and Ld buffs. Aside from that, tankbustas seem good, battlewagons seem good, and anything with bombs seems usable at least. Flash Gifts are expensive but can put out some serious damage, I'll have to do the math and see if a BW filled with them is viable.

Are our bikes any good? I haven't checked.

I don't know how you can argue Orks got worse relative to marines with a straight face.

Marines have taken a nerf on virtually every single unit in the codex, while Orks got new toys and tricks, and also get saves against a lot of stuff they didn't in the past.

I'm just absolutely confused by this thread.

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
It looks like you can abuse badly worded rules to use ammo runts as ablative wounds and Ld buffs. Aside from that, tankbustas seem good, battlewagons seem good, and anything with bombs seems usable at least. Flash Gifts are expensive but can put out some serious damage, I'll have to do the math and see if a BW filled with them is viable.

Are our bikes any good? I haven't checked.

where did you get any of that info?

Battlewagons cost 50% then before and while they are more survivable they suck even more so. giving them Rokkitz costs almost 50pts and the Lobba/KillKannon are useless.

Flash gitz? 27pts for a T4 2wound model with a 6+ save?

I'm looking forward to fielding Meganobz with Kombi-Rokkit Launchas. Orky Tyrant Siege Terminators Ho!

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I'm looking forward to fielding Meganobz with Kombi-Rokkit Launchas. Orky Tyrant Siege Terminators Ho!

Kombi-Rokkitz appear to be 20 or 28pts the image is to blurry to tell. Add on your powerklaw and your looking at a single model costing over 70pts

 Marmatag wrote:
I don't know how you can argue Orks got worse relative to marines with a straight face.

Marines have taken a nerf on virtually every single unit in the codex, while Orks got new toys and tricks, and also get saves against a lot of stuff they didn't in the past.

I'm just absolutely confused by this thread.

I take it you don't play orks, the improve to saves helps everybody but that is the beggest new positive for orks, we get the 6+ so can save 17% from a bolter. on the downside out points increses were higher than anybody else. the fact that a rhino with weapon is cheaper than a trukk without any while the rhino has a better save, better BS, and plus 1 T should pretty much explain the problem

I will be proud of my 70 points of walking 4th of July Celebrations even if they are overcosted

Also the majority of the issue people have seems to be with vehicle costs, but that has happened across the board with everyone else. As for bare-bones comparisons, remember that most of these vehicles are support units, not front liners.

I think infantry-heavy armies will be the new thing with this edition.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I don't know how you can argue Orks got worse relative to marines with a straight face.

Marines have taken a nerf on virtually every single unit in the codex, while Orks got new toys and tricks, and also get saves against a lot of stuff they didn't in the past.

I'm just absolutely confused by this thread.

I take it you don't play orks, the improve to saves helps everybody but that is the beggest new positive for orks, we get the 6+ so can save 17% from a bolter. on the downside out points increses were higher than anybody else. the fact that a rhino with weapon is cheaper than a trukk without any while the rhino has a better save, better BS, and plus 1 T should pretty much explain the problem

Tau would beg to disagree. A LOT. And I don't play them.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
I will be proud of my 70 points of walking 4th of July Celebrations even if they are overcosted

Also the majority of the issue people have seems to be with vehicle costs, but that has happened across the board with everyone else. As for bare-bones comparisons, remember that most of these vehicles are support units, not front liners.

I think infantry-heavy armies will be the new thing with this edition.

Well since tactical Marines got cheaper and Boyz stayed the same I would have to agree. I'm calling it right now, orks are bottom tier for another fething edition. Honestly im fed up with this utter nonsense. All of our shooting just got worse and our CC didn't get much better.

First of all, Rhinos did not double in price, they went from 0 points to 75 points effectively. (Last time anyone played vs Beakers not running free transports?)

Second, Trukks are better at CC than Rhinos. Different foci for different armies/units.

Third, Orks did not lose an attack per se for 2 CCW, Choppa gives extra attack, just like Chainsword.

As far as Warlord, I can easily get an entire army to have Waagh bonus by either clumping or abusing coherency and getting to choose casualties with just one Warlord...

Orks don't save, Orks don't shoot, Orks go faster by painting stuff red, Orks get in and eat faces, everything else is window dressing to appease folks who at heart want to play greenskinned Beakers...

"(Last time anyone played vs Beakers not running free transports?) "

Anyone playing vs BA.

Pedroig wrote:
First of all, Rhinos did not double in price, they went from 0 points to 75 points effectively. (Last time anyone played vs Beakers not running free transports?)

Second, Trukks are better at CC than Rhinos. Different foci for different armies/units.

Third, Orks did not lose an attack per se for 2 CCW, Choppa gives extra attack, just like Chainsword.

As far as Warlord, I can easily get an entire army to have Waagh bonus by either clumping or abusing coherency and getting to choose casualties with just one Warlord...

Orks don't save, Orks don't shoot, Orks go faster by painting stuff red, Orks get in and eat faces, everything else is window dressing to appease folks who at heart want to play greenskinned Beakers...

Wrong across the board.

Rhinos had a set price, broken formations were that issue so whatever.

Trukkz are better at CC? Ohh lordy, 3 S6 attacks hitting on 5s. Better watch out! What do Rhinos have 3 S6 attacks hitting on 6s?

Yes we did lose +1 attacks, im sorry you cant comprehend this but you are wrong. Just because they
"buffed" Choppas, doesnt mean they didn't take that bonus away. And if you are clumping your army together like that and abusing the system, hey thats fine thats up to you. For me? it would be boring and hard to figure out where one unit of boyz ends and another begins. And keep in mind that your opponent can effectively hide on the other 2/3rds of the map you aren't bothering to contest.

Orks do have saves, orks do shoot, orks dont get that much faster then anyone else, and are slower then some, orks suck at CC. Maybe this edition will be different but hte last 4 have said otherwise.

Pedroig wrote:
.Orks don't save, Orks don't shoot, Orks go faster by painting stuff red, Orks get in and eat faces, everything else is window dressing to appease folks who at heart want to play greenskinned Beakers...

Lol, jup orks are 100% SPEAD FREAKS thats why they have M5.

I think the fact that Trukks can now tie up other squads in combat to deny them shooting is a potential reason why their point cost went up.

Orks don't seem totally fantastic to me - I think they're likely to get a lot more benefits out of their codex rules than their index lists - but they seem at least in line with the existing rules, plus a few nice quality of life buffs like natural S4. I'm also probably not as bothered because I plan to play with power levels so having to pay for equipment isn't going to bloat things.

I do think a horde of boyz, organized in waves and sprinkled with buff characters and supported by fast elements to tie down the front line, will do fine and feel good to play even if it's not top tier competitive.

Kommandos seem better nowadays. Free Nob and free Burnas. Might just to kit bash a few more outbox those burna bitz from all my lootaz!

 oldzoggy wrote:

Pedroig wrote:
.Orks don't save, Orks don't shoot, Orks go faster by painting stuff red, Orks get in and eat faces, everything else is window dressing to appease folks who at heart want to play greenskinned Beakers...

Lol, jup orks are 100% SPEAD FREAKS thats why they have M5.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Kommandos seem better nowadays. Free Nob and free Burnas. Might just to kit bash a few more outbox those burna bitz from all my lootaz!

Just keep in mind that Burna's are D3 not D6.

Lord Kragan wrote:

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:
I don't know how you can argue Orks got worse relative to marines with a straight face.

Marines have taken a nerf on virtually every single unit in the codex, while Orks got new toys and tricks, and also get saves against a lot of stuff they didn't in the past.

I'm just absolutely confused by this thread.

I take it you don't play orks, the improve to saves helps everybody but that is the beggest new positive for orks, we get the 6+ so can save 17% from a bolter. on the downside out points increses were higher than anybody else. the fact that a rhino with weapon is cheaper than a trukk without any while the rhino has a better save, better BS, and plus 1 T should pretty much explain the problem

Tau would beg to disagree. A LOT. And I don't play them.

i have / play tau and have / play orks... looking at the points the tau went up too but not at the same scale orks did

Tau were also considered to be Top Tier while Orks were considered to be bottom tier. So if anything we should have seen orks getting either way more buffs or at the least, significantly smaller increases in price compared to other factions.

SemperMortis wrote:

Pedroig wrote:
First of all, Rhinos did not double in price, they went from 0 points to 75 points effectively. (Last time anyone played vs Beakers not running free transports?)

Second, Trukks are better at CC than Rhinos. Different foci for different armies/units.

Third, Orks did not lose an attack per se for 2 CCW, Choppa gives extra attack, just like Chainsword.

As far as Warlord, I can easily get an entire army to have Waagh bonus by either clumping or abusing coherency and getting to choose casualties with just one Warlord...

Orks don't save, Orks don't shoot, Orks go faster by painting stuff red, Orks get in and eat faces, everything else is window dressing to appease folks who at heart want to play greenskinned Beakers...

Wrong across the board.

Rhinos had a set price, broken formations were that issue so whatever.

Trukkz are better at CC? Ohh lordy, 3 S6 attacks hitting on 5s. Better watch out! What do Rhinos have 3 S6 attacks hitting on 6s?

Yes we did lose +1 attacks, im sorry you cant comprehend this but you are wrong. Just because they
"buffed" Choppas, doesnt mean they didn't take that bonus away. And if you are clumping your army together like that and abusing the system, hey thats fine thats up to you. For me? it would be boring and hard to figure out where one unit of boyz ends and another begins. And keep in mind that your opponent can effectively hide on the other 2/3rds of the map you aren't bothering to contest.

Orks do have saves, orks do shoot, orks dont get that much faster then anyone else, and are slower then some, orks suck at CC. Maybe this edition will be different but the last 4 have said otherwise.

You seem to be in a pissy mood...

If basically everyone was using said formations, then in reality transports cost 0 for SM, and nobody Iknew used free Rhinos, they used free Razorbacks or Droppods instead.
Base attack before was 2, base attack now is 2, where is the lost attack? EVERYONE lost the 2 CCW +1 attack, yet every army has some CCW which gives +1 attack. Tell ya what, why don't you tell us how many attacks a Boy with a Big Choppa gets in 7th, and then how many attacks it gets in 8th? That is simple math, and seemingly too complicated on relative comparatives.
What other 2/3rds, can cover 72" with two units of Boyz and/or Grots, with room to spare. As far as colour scheming to keep unit straight, seems to work for professional sport teams... And how is clumping abusing the system? It has bonuses and penalties, just like spreading out does, and going in between does.
Truckk WS 5+ BS 5+ S 6/5/4 A 3/d3/1 M 12/8/6 Rhino WS 6+ BS 3/4/5 S 6 A 3/d3/1 M 12/6/3 better in CC worse in Shooting, though Open Topped may even that out a bit, depends what's in the Trukk
Paint your Ork vehicles red, they then go faster, not further. (and if you still think this is a serious comment...)
Please explain HOW Orks "suck at CC"? They can effectively "charge" from 17" away now, on foot, with a morale of up to 30, They now hit in CC on a 3+ ALL the time. Vehicles, ALL of the vehicles can now Charge and engage in CCW as well, soaking up Overlook shots while they are at it.

Lighten up Francis.

SemperMortis wrote:

We already had Waaagh as a rule, now its even worse because everyone has to be within 6in of that warboss for it to work. We got +1 strength hooray the world is ours! We also lost the +1 attack for having 2 CC weapons and we possibly lost the bonus attack for charging so overall we lost CC Ability. And SMs got the same "initiative 10" that we did so long as they charge, and im pretty sure their movement is better then ours so they have a decent chance to pull it off. As far as heavy weapons? Yeah lets talk about heavy weapons. ALL OF OUR BLAST WEAPONS SUCK NOW. ALL OF THEM! let me spell that out for you. We now have to roll to hit for blast weapons so no longer can we rely on scattering to get us at least 3-4 hits. KillKannon now fires D6 shots, which is terribly because even if you roll a 6 that means your only hitting twice on average. Realistically its going to hit once per turn and cost MORE THEN A LASCANNON. Even though its both weaker, shorter ranged and has less AP then the lascannon. Or how about the tried and true Lobba? Yup that sucks as well. Or we have the weapons on our beloved Stompa, ALL ARE GARBAGE NOW.

waagggh is leagues better than it was before barring the stupid formation that let you do it every turn; its both fluffy and creates tangible threats all game now.

We didnt lose our +1 attack for two close combat weapons mate, or did you fail to realize that orks pretty much across the board come with what ammounts to a chainsword?

Marines did get the same I10 that we got, but they dont want to be assaulting people, they want to be shooting them. They also lack the fancy tools we have to get into combat more easily. Again you're hitting apples and oranges.

Our blast weapons are different now, they don't suck. Our shooting sucks, and it should because we have a stupid amount of it and the focus is more on CC. We suck at shooting yes, but what do you want, cheap troops that can shoot well, have assault shenanigans and maybe a good save? All at once? Ballance is a two way street.

and yes, the killkannon isnt super great, especially when you compare it to a lascannon held by a marine.... But its even worse when you compare it to a railgun... Because orks arent meant to be a formidable gunline; they're meant to shoot downfield as they barrel downwards. As you said, 1-2 hits if you roll a six.... that's fair for its points and considering that just behind it is likely to be a deffrolla thats going to chew on stuff.

you bet your butt we depended on saves. We just had to pay more and be more kunning to get them. Hiding boyz in terrain, taking 1-3 Painboyz in multiple detachments that kind of thing. All of our saves got significantly worse against most of the weapons in this game....except for bolters, ohh thank god for that miracle. Trukkz are more durable now, as you pointed out, twice as durable. FOR MORE THEN TWICE THE COST. in the same way that a Landraider became significantly more durable but dropped in price.

You bet your own butt, you can't just scream something louder as a recourse against being told you're wrong. Hiding boys in terrain didn't work and ardboy armor was way overcosted for what it gave. It was almost always better to bulk up the blobs (or get more of them) than it was to kit the ones you already had out.

Landraiders NEEDED to be buffed bigtime. No one was fielding them because they cost more than anything else in the codex and ammounted to two cheap lazcannon potshots a game. If you do some math too btw, you'll find that they went UP in points considering you now have to pay to arm them.

Really? What kind of 2nd Grade meta do you live in? Ive played more games where all my trukkz Die turn 1 and most of my Warbikers get liquidated turn 1-2. Ive also stopped playing green tide because its both boring and because all my opponents know how to counter it easily, not even mentioning the fact that Eldar and SM can literally just remove it from play before it gets across the table.

so you insult the people I play with as an opener and then go on to admit that all of your trukks died immediately? I hate playing green tide too, and am excited that my trukks will take some focus fire to put down suddenly, rather than a single pot shot from all the heavy weapons my opponent has fielded completely de-meching me in one turn. Sure trukks cost more than double what they did, but you know that drop pods now cost three times what they did before? things are revamped, the new costs are mean to reflect what they bring to the army. What kind of time travelling meta are YOU part of that you know this is already wrong without having seen anyone play?

This has to be the dumbest argument possible. What else do you compare them to? 8th edition orks are compared to 7th edition orks, which were compared to 4-6th edition orks (we didn't get a codex for 5th or 6th).

Its not a dumb argument at all, What you compare them to is the other armies in 8th. Since there are no games yet to give us that data, you hold off on making the comparison. Saying that orks are broken now having just seen some of their rules in a vacuum is like saying you know a cookie is going to be bad because you say someone put baking soda into the recipe, and you know 100% for sure that baking soda tastes bad when you eat it with a spoon.

You are right that everything went up in cost, except from what I've seen, Ork prices have gone up HIGHER then similar units in other armies. Trukkz are 6pts more expensive then Rhinos when before they were 5 points cheaper. Stompas, the most over priced POS thing in the game went up in price drastically. I can keep going but its ridiculous.

Higher than comparable prices? Base transport for troops then again? because the drop pod saw a 300%+ increase in price mate. Comparing what things cost across different codices is bad practice.... A lascannon in the ork codex would worth way less than it is in the space marine codex, because of the ability to shoot and carry it around the table. Similarly, a transport for basic troops that has a capacity of 12 rather than 10 in the space marine codex wouldn't be all that good because they don't have squads that take up 12 models.

Actually Trukkz became slower, and less useful for alpha strike assaults. Move 6, disembark 6, run D6 charge 2D6. Now? its disembark, move run assault. So yeah, slower. and they already ignored moving and shooting rules because they were fast vehicles. And unless that warboss is on a bike or in the trukk it won't be nearby. Again, we could do all of this already. You literally wasted an entire paragraph explaining that trukkz remained exactly the same as last edition (with the notable 8th changes like armor/WS/Attacks) but are now worse in almost every way possible compared to a Rhino, and yet the rhino is still cheaper.

They didn't ignore 'run' and shoot rules like they did now, and they are not slower either. 12 move, d6 'run', 2d6 assault for a total of potentially 30 on turn one, and now they don't die when they get looked at wrong, or kill as many boys when they do. Trukks are not worse in every way than a rhino, because unlike a rhino a trukk can carry 11 boys and a power Klaw into a gun-line. Rhinos cant carry that across the table. Again you're stuck on apples vs oranges. If you try to make an apple pie using oranges its going to be a really bad apple pie. If you insist that trukks are worse in EVERY way than a rhino, then why dont we see what happens when a rhino and a trukk with a ball are put in melee with each other? Or does your EVERY way have certain exclusions?

Artillery was broken for us? really? Again what kind of meta do you play in where Mek Gunz were Broken? the only thing that made mek gunz good was their durability which is now in the dumpster, on fire. Artillery will not be fun to play because they will die the first time someone sneezes at them.

Artillery was broken for EVERYONE. a T7 grot is absurd, particularly for how much they cost. Having that in the game is the dumpster fire. But that's aside from the point, I said they were broken. Orks benefited from it sure, but it was abused to high hell in other armies. The world exists outside of what directly affects orks you know, and a nerf on something broken that addresses absurd imbalance problems on other codices, is good for orks even if it clips the wings off an all star unit in the process. Big guns and mek guns are fair now IMO, and I'd be willing to bet that a game or two proves me right.

To summarize all that ive seen so far. GW Took away all our fun randomness things that made the army interesting, then they took away our CC ability and now this edition they are FORCING US to play a footslogging horde style army because theyve effectively nerfed EVERYTHING ELSE in our codex into uselessness.

No one is forcing you to play anything. No one will stomp on your models. You probably haven't played a single game yet, and you almost certainly have not been paying as close attention to the changes that other armies are goring through at the moment. Calm yourself man or you're going to poop. I'm certainly not going to play foot-horde, and you dont have to either. I've seen TONS of units im excited to field. Burnas look awesome, nobs are suddenly a threat even without mega armor, painboys zooming around on bikes saving people, and putting models back into blobs if they dont zoom. Naught's spilling masses of boys, trukks running stupid sprints turn one so they can hit things with a giant ball of spikes? Then dumping a party out in the other persons lines the next turn? No more being pinned? Nobs slapping boys that try to run away? Ammo runts handing off reloads and then not vanishing into the aether afterwards? DEFFROLLAS?!

You seem like a really grumpy person yo.

SemperMortis wrote:

 gnome_idea_what wrote:
It looks like you can abuse badly worded rules to use ammo runts as ablative wounds and Ld buffs. Aside from that, tankbustas seem good, battlewagons seem good, and anything with bombs seems usable at least. Flash Gifts are expensive but can put out some serious damage, I'll have to do the math and see if a BW filled with them is viable.

Are our bikes any good? I haven't checked.

where did you get any of that info?

Battlewagons cost 50% then before and while they are more survivable they suck even more so. giving them Rokkitz costs almost 50pts and the Lobba/KillKannon are useless.

Flash gitz? 27pts for a T4 2wound model with a 6+ save?

Source: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/724730.page It's in the linked drive folder.
Battlewagons do cost more and their weapon choices suck, but in an army with movement of 5, transports are probably going to be necessary to get things into range. Flash Gits got bumped up to BS4, their guns consistently do something, and ammo runts are actual models that don't get expended when they grant rerolls, count towards unit size for mob rule, but whose deaths don't count for morale. This makes Flash Gits even better at shooting things and slightly more resistant to morale, for just +4 ppm. It's expensive but might be worth it. The 6+ save sucks though, if nobs got boosted to 4+ then Gits should have been boosted too, it just makes more sense.

Earth127 wrote:
Yeah meta settling takes a while.

Whenever "the internet" reaches a conclusion on stuff before it is tested remember this bit of gold.

"WK aren't survivable enough, they need eternal warrior and a 2+ armour save at the least".

general consensus about WK on first release.

Bs wraithknight and scat bikes on release was that eldar would ruin everyone. In fact we instantly had kneejerk reactions to ban the eldar decorian from spamming wraithknights in tournaments.

Wraithknights were directly compared to knights and were much stronger and a lot cheaper.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Now back on topic orks will be decent BUT specific builds which oddly is the same as 7th ed better builds.

Warboss on bike
Zhardsnark (depending on FW rules)
Painboy on bike (even though it has a movement restriction)
Weirdboy

3-6 manz (using da jump and slowly walking toward thier target at 4".)

5 tankbustas in trukk w wrecking ball, nob w tankhammer, 2 bomb squigs
X3 of the above (best unit in our dex)

Morkanaut w kff (and a Mek boy w grot inside)
30 choppa boy blob bubble wrapping morkanaut

3x warbikers with nob w big choppa (if zhardsnark allows warbikers troops for brigade FoC then Spam these x5)

3x deff koptas w bombs

15x stormboys w boss zagstruk (because they can assault flyers and our fastest obj grabbers and zags a beatstick that. Ames the. Immune to morale)

Trakks and skorchas to harass your enemy w cheap resilient fast and deadly spam.

Kustom mega kannon x4 w lots of gunners

12 command points which you don't need to use for reroll charge. Add as many grots, squigs, ammo runts etc as you can to ignore casualties and morale.

Have you concidered the point cost for most of those things I tried to make a deffkopta centric army but their prices are just over the top.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Crazyterran wrote:
Rhinos doubled in points, drop pods tripled. What are you on about?

trukk 76 points ws 5+ bs 5+ S 6 but goes down with wounds t6 w 10 L 6 sv 4+

rhino 70 points ws 5+ bs 3+ but goes down as it gets hurt, s6 T7 w 10 L8 sv 3+

trukks do not include guns either. so 6 more points for -2 BS movement is identical at full W but the trukk is slightly faster as wounds taken. it has -1 T same S before wounds, and a worse save... game set. match. rhino is better for less points but at this point that is unsurprising, space marines get more for less points than orks.

drop pods should have always been more expensive than they are but again they were for marines so until now they had been undercosted. I do think they were over adjusted btu they should have been 60 points since the beginning

Ramshackle lets you reduce the damage of a hit 1/6 times, which is much more useful than repair.

Opentopped lets you shoot out of the top of a Trukk, where as Rhinos cant be shot out of at all anymore. And before you go 'lulz ork shooting', theres still Burnaz, Lootas, and other scary Ork guns that could be lurkingnin the back. Heck, Mega nobz with combi skorchas would be kind of scary!

Rokkits cost 12 points, but the most a Rhino can get is a Stormbolter, or a one shot missile.

Rhinos cost 72 points, can only carry Marines, no terminators, Primaris, or jump infantry. Trukks can carry 6 mega nobs, or 5 and a painboy and a Big mek.

Also, the difference between T6 and T7 is oretty small, and only matters against S6, S7, and S12/13 weapons. The only S12/13 in the game is close combat right now, so, if you the Trukk is getting hit by that, it did its job already.