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2017/06/02 17:43:10
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
So the fact that one gets a 3++ save means nothing and all that matters is offense? Well how much damage does a dead meganob put out since it is more likely to die than the storm shield terminator?
Maybe the way to get across is the differences in points is to give examples inside of an army rather than comparing two armies so people don't just argue in favor of their favored army.
Why is a storm shield only 1 point more than a combat shield? As far as I can tell the restriction of taking a storm shield with a relic blade is gone, there doesn't appear to be 2 handed weapons that can't be used with a storm shield anymore that I see. Although I may be missing it. Vanguard Veterans seem to be able to take a storm sheild and relic blade together now for example.
And why does a killsaw cost the same for a spanner and a nob?
Or if we must argue army against army, why does a killsaw for a spanner cost more than a thunder hammer for any space marine model?
Where are spanners getting to take wargear in your list?
Killsaws are pretty limited.
As for storm shield vs combat shield, that seems to be silly but I don't know which units can take each. But combat shields have been garbage forever.
As for the 3++ sure it matters, but not a whole lot more than an additional wound, and the army composition also matters like I said, it is much cheaper to move your Meganobs around the table than it is to move your terminators (terminators have initial deepstrike, but after that are walking unless paying through the nose for a landraider). As for how likely they are to die, meganobs are less likely to die than terminators to all the most common weapons in the game, anything AP -1 or lower is more effective against a SS terminator than against a meganob, Anything at -2 that does a single wound is identical against the terminators and meganobs (takes 6 wounds to kill a terminator to get 2 wounds through a 3+, and 6 wounds against a Meganob to get 3 wounds through a 4+.) Against D3 or 2 wound -2 Meganobs are better as wounds tend to get wasted, Against 1 damage -3 and 4 it still takes 6 wounds to kill a terminator vs 4.5 for the MANZ (-3) and 3.6 for MANZ. So Terminators are more likely to die to all small arms fire, but more durable against AP-3 and 4, especially if it does D6 wounds (2 or D3 is close for AP-3, as every wound going through likely kills a terminator.)
Spanners can take a killsaw in place of their choppa. In both the loota and burna squads. At the same cost as the one for a nob or meganob. less attacks and on a much weaker model. That is obviously wrong right? Shouldn't it be cheaper for the weaker model? That was the justification for a thunder hammer being max Str 8 right? A spanner is only Str 4.
3++ is way better than 1 additional wound. It always has been. For anyone who says otherwise I just have to ask, have you ever played this game? There are plenty of high ap/high volume fire weapons to fire at meganobz, that will be nearly useless against terminators.
Terminators can also use a teleport homer can move them across the table during the move phase.
2017/06/02 17:43:14
Subject: Re:Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
Perfect Organism wrote: Just crunched some numbers comparing a trukk full of burnas to a land speeder storm full of scouts with shotguns.
Scouts and speeder is 157, burnas and trukk are 250 (i.e. 59% more expensive than the marines).
The LSS is obviously faster.
With a heavy flamer on the land speeder and the shotguns within half range, the scouts throw out about 70% of the burna boys firepower.
The trukk is about 50% more durable than the speeder.
The 12 burna boys are roughly 50% more durable than five scouts too.
In close combat, the orks are unsurprisingly far superior, each burna averaging half a wound or so on most infantry, while the scouts only do one third of one each. The speeder itself is oddly competent in close combat, but with only two attacks it isn't enough to shift the balance (things would be much closer if they scouts had an equal points value of infantry).
Overall, that doesn't seem too bad for the orks. The relative manoeuvrability and concentrating their points into fewer units is bad for area control, but in a stand up fight they are only at a small disadvantage with shooting and should find it fairly straightforward to get into close combat with only moderate casualties, at which point they have the upper hand.
However, I'm far from convinced that an army of scouts in land speeders is the best possible build for marines, so this is probably comparing one of the orks' stronger combinations with a fairly poor choice from the marine list.
Incidentally, I ran the numbers on the trukk against a variety of heavy weapons. The average improvement was 172% more shots needed to destroy it. This seems very close to the 173% increase in it's cost. However, simply being n% tougher doesn't make you worth n% more points. My intuition is that a fair cost is probably closer to the square root of your durability, since two trukks would be better than one trukk which took twice as long to kill, being able to carry twice as many models, move to twice as many objectives, tie up twice as many shooting units with an assault and so on while still needing the same number of shots to destroy.
I think that a fair price for a trukk with the durability of the new one and the speed of the new one would be around ((2.72^0.5)*30) or roughly 50 points. Given that the new trukk is about 20% slower and not able to move before disembarking troops any more, I'd knock another 10% or so off it. In short, the new trukk seems to be nearly twice the price my best math-hammer says it should be. (The rhino, by comparison is only about 25% more than my numbers say is right). This assumes that the old trukk wasn't horribly under-costed of course, but given that orks don't really have much of a reputation as tournament winners I'm going to say it probably wasn't.
Before anyone says I can't compare the value of old and new points, let me just say that I absolutely can because most infantry units are still very close to their old cost and still work in a very similar fashion.
The Rhino got nerfed significantly in comparison to the Trukk.
2017/06/02 17:43:39
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
davou wrote: A warboss grants a bubble of waggh and Leaderhsip buffs. Sticking a barebones warboss in one or two of your trukks, and then having two or three more small mobs around then is a perfectly valid way to play. He confers his leadership to the lot, AND allows all of them to waggh move now.
Actually, unless otherwise stated in the listing for the ability, those aura effects do not work when the bearer is embarked in a vehicle.
2017/06/02 17:45:45
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
gungo wrote: I think MANZ are actually a poor choice this edition not because they are not durable or super killy with combi skrochas.
They are slow as FEK. Moving 4in and you cant advance without a warboss within 6in and even with that you are likely only able to roll just enough to move as fast you we did last edition. And added to the fact nearly every other Army is moving 6in or MORE base. I use to take manz in trukks as a man missle who would bum rush a target like an imperial knight. which is what they should still be fighting. If I attempt to chase down an imperial knight with 12 in movement vs my 4in I will never be in charge range unless the imperial knight player wants me to charge him and at best the knight player will get the charge and kill the 3x mega nobs before they have a chance to atk.
There is so many better options now to take on those durable targets then manz, Tankbustas in trukks are the stars of the ork codex, stormboys are also amazing. Kommandos with burnas are great units as well. Warbikers should also be great as well as characters on bikes.
Not sure yet, Weirdboyz could help by placing them in charge (albeit above average of 8") range. Will be tougher to take down knights as now they cannot be locked in combat, but I don't think MANZ are the best choice for that as he negates their wounds. I think slower vehicles will be a good target for them, or small durable units, as you can charge your trukk in and then jump out next turn to kill off the unit that was locked with your Trukk (most units cannot get far enough away to not get caught in this case).
Weirdboy power puts them OVER 9" away which means you need to roll 9" to get within 1" of the enemy.
So the fact that one gets a 3++ save means nothing and all that matters is offense? Well how much damage does a dead meganob put out since it is more likely to die than the storm shield terminator?
Maybe the way to get across is the differences in points is to give examples inside of an army rather than comparing two armies so people don't just argue in favor of their favored army.
Why is a storm shield only 1 point more than a combat shield? As far as I can tell the restriction of taking a storm shield with a relic blade is gone, there doesn't appear to be 2 handed weapons that can't be used with a storm shield anymore that I see. Although I may be missing it. Vanguard Veterans seem to be able to take a storm sheild and relic blade together now for example.
And why does a killsaw cost the same for a spanner and a nob?
Or if we must argue army against army, why does a killsaw for a spanner cost more than a thunder hammer for any space marine model?
Where are spanners getting to take wargear in your list?
Killsaws are pretty limited.
As for storm shield vs combat shield, that seems to be silly but I don't know which units can take each. But combat shields have been garbage forever.
As for the 3++ sure it matters, but not a whole lot more than an additional wound, and the army composition also matters like I said, it is much cheaper to move your Meganobs around the table than it is to move your terminators (terminators have initial deepstrike, but after that are walking unless paying through the nose for a landraider). As for how likely they are to die, meganobs are less likely to die than terminators to all the most common weapons in the game, anything AP -1 or lower is more effective against a SS terminator than against a meganob, Anything at -2 that does a single wound is identical against the terminators and meganobs (takes 6 wounds to kill a terminator to get 2 wounds through a 3+, and 6 wounds against a Meganob to get 3 wounds through a 4+.) Against D3 or 2 wound -2 Meganobs are better as wounds tend to get wasted, Against 1 damage -3 and 4 it still takes 6 wounds to kill a terminator vs 4.5 for the MANZ (-3) and 3.6 for MANZ. So Terminators are more likely to die to all small arms fire, but more durable against AP-3 and 4, especially if it does D6 wounds (2 or D3 is close for AP-3, as every wound going through likely kills a terminator.)
Spanners can take a killsaw in place of their choppa. In both the loota and burna squads. At the same cost as the one for a nob or meganob. less attacks and on a much weaker model. That is obviously wrong right? Shouldn't it be cheaper for the weaker model? That was the justification for a thunder hammer being max Str 8 right? A spanner is only Str 4.
3++ is way better than 1 additional wound. It always has been. For anyone who says otherwise I just have to ask, have you ever played this game? There are plenty of high ap/high volume fire weapons to fire at meganobz, that will be nearly useless against terminators.
Terminators can also use a teleport homer can move them across the table during the move phase.
Missed the Spanner thing the first time, and yes it is true for all things that unit is not taken into account, but this has often been the case. Math Suggests that your assessment of a 3++ being way better than an additional wound is not 100% true, especially when instant death no longer exists, that used to make it worth a ton more because 1 lascannon reduced any wounds to 0. There really are not that many -3 or better weapons with lots of shots and those with lots of shots are expensive. MANZ are much more worried about things like Melta then say Plasma guns (against which they have the durability of 3 Tactical Terminators in 7e). Also remember mortal wounds exist now, and are not uncommon, against those 1 wound is way better than a 3++.
gungo wrote: I think MANZ are actually a poor choice this edition not because they are not durable or super killy with combi skrochas.
They are slow as FEK. Moving 4in and you cant advance without a warboss within 6in and even with that you are likely only able to roll just enough to move as fast you we did last edition. And added to the fact nearly every other Army is moving 6in or MORE base. I use to take manz in trukks as a man missle who would bum rush a target like an imperial knight. which is what they should still be fighting. If I attempt to chase down an imperial knight with 12 in movement vs my 4in I will never be in charge range unless the imperial knight player wants me to charge him and at best the knight player will get the charge and kill the 3x mega nobs before they have a chance to atk.
There is so many better options now to take on those durable targets then manz, Tankbustas in trukks are the stars of the ork codex, stormboys are also amazing. Kommandos with burnas are great units as well. Warbikers should also be great as well as characters on bikes.
Not sure yet, Weirdboyz could help by placing them in charge (albeit above average of 8") range. Will be tougher to take down knights as now they cannot be locked in combat, but I don't think MANZ are the best choice for that as he negates their wounds. I think slower vehicles will be a good target for them, or small durable units, as you can charge your trukk in and then jump out next turn to kill off the unit that was locked with your Trukk (most units cannot get far enough away to not get caught in this case).
Weirdboy power puts them OVER 9" away which means you need to roll 9" to get within 1" of the enemy.
True, forgot that part. Still 9" with a re-roll to charge is not that unrealistic.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/02 17:54:13
2017/06/02 17:52:26
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
davou wrote: A warboss grants a bubble of waggh and Leaderhsip buffs. Sticking a barebones warboss in one or two of your trukks, and then having two or three more small mobs around then is a perfectly valid way to play. He confers his leadership to the lot, AND allows all of them to waggh move now.
Actually, unless otherwise stated in the listing for the ability, those aura effects do not work when the bearer is embarked in a vehicle.
I didnt say it did? He'd get out too of course, what kind of boss would sit in the trukk when the boys run upfield?
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
2017/06/02 18:09:00
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
So the fact that one gets a 3++ save means nothing and all that matters is offense? Well how much damage does a dead meganob put out since it is more likely to die than the storm shield terminator?
Maybe the way to get across is the differences in points is to give examples inside of an army rather than comparing two armies so people don't just argue in favor of their favored army.
Why is a storm shield only 1 point more than a combat shield? As far as I can tell the restriction of taking a storm shield with a relic blade is gone, there doesn't appear to be 2 handed weapons that can't be used with a storm shield anymore that I see. Although I may be missing it. Vanguard Veterans seem to be able to take a storm sheild and relic blade together now for example.
And why does a killsaw cost the same for a spanner and a nob?
Or if we must argue army against army, why does a killsaw for a spanner cost more than a thunder hammer for any space marine model?
Where are spanners getting to take wargear in your list?
Killsaws are pretty limited.
As for storm shield vs combat shield, that seems to be silly but I don't know which units can take each. But combat shields have been garbage forever.
As for the 3++ sure it matters, but not a whole lot more than an additional wound, and the army composition also matters like I said, it is much cheaper to move your Meganobs around the table than it is to move your terminators (terminators have initial deepstrike, but after that are walking unless paying through the nose for a landraider). As for how likely they are to die, meganobs are less likely to die than terminators to all the most common weapons in the game, anything AP -1 or lower is more effective against a SS terminator than against a meganob, Anything at -2 that does a single wound is identical against the terminators and meganobs (takes 6 wounds to kill a terminator to get 2 wounds through a 3+, and 6 wounds against a Meganob to get 3 wounds through a 4+.) Against D3 or 2 wound -2 Meganobs are better as wounds tend to get wasted, Against 1 damage -3 and 4 it still takes 6 wounds to kill a terminator vs 4.5 for the MANZ (-3) and 3.6 for MANZ. So Terminators are more likely to die to all small arms fire, but more durable against AP-3 and 4, especially if it does D6 wounds (2 or D3 is close for AP-3, as every wound going through likely kills a terminator.)
Spanners can take a killsaw in place of their choppa. In both the loota and burna squads. At the same cost as the one for a nob or meganob. less attacks and on a much weaker model. That is obviously wrong right? Shouldn't it be cheaper for the weaker model? That was the justification for a thunder hammer being max Str 8 right? A spanner is only Str 4.
3++ is way better than 1 additional wound. It always has been. For anyone who says otherwise I just have to ask, have you ever played this game? There are plenty of high ap/high volume fire weapons to fire at meganobz, that will be nearly useless against terminators.
Terminators can also use a teleport homer can move them across the table during the move phase.
Missed the Spanner thing the first time, and yes it is true for all things that unit is not taken into account, but this has often been the case. Math Suggests that your assessment of a 3++ being way better than an additional wound is not 100% true, especially when instant death no longer exists, that used to make it worth a ton more because 1 lascannon reduced any wounds to 0. There really are not that many -3 or better weapons with lots of shots and those with lots of shots are expensive. MANZ are much more worried about things like Melta then say Plasma guns (against which they have the durability of 3 Tactical Terminators in 7e). Also remember mortal wounds exist now, and are not uncommon, against those 1 wound is way better than a 3++.
gungo wrote: I think MANZ are actually a poor choice this edition not because they are not durable or super killy with combi skrochas.
They are slow as FEK. Moving 4in and you cant advance without a warboss within 6in and even with that you are likely only able to roll just enough to move as fast you we did last edition. And added to the fact nearly every other Army is moving 6in or MORE base. I use to take manz in trukks as a man missle who would bum rush a target like an imperial knight. which is what they should still be fighting. If I attempt to chase down an imperial knight with 12 in movement vs my 4in I will never be in charge range unless the imperial knight player wants me to charge him and at best the knight player will get the charge and kill the 3x mega nobs before they have a chance to atk.
There is so many better options now to take on those durable targets then manz, Tankbustas in trukks are the stars of the ork codex, stormboys are also amazing. Kommandos with burnas are great units as well. Warbikers should also be great as well as characters on bikes.
Not sure yet, Weirdboyz could help by placing them in charge (albeit above average of 8") range. Will be tougher to take down knights as now they cannot be locked in combat, but I don't think MANZ are the best choice for that as he negates their wounds. I think slower vehicles will be a good target for them, or small durable units, as you can charge your trukk in and then jump out next turn to kill off the unit that was locked with your Trukk (most units cannot get far enough away to not get caught in this case).
Weirdboy power puts them OVER 9" away which means you need to roll 9" to get within 1" of the enemy.
True, forgot that part. Still 9" with a re-roll to charge is not that unrealistic.
skip the manz save the points
just take 5-6 tanknbustas with a nob with tankhammer and 2 bomb squigs in a trukk w wrecking ball
move and advance the trukk (if you get into charge range charge if not wait for next turn) fire your 24in range str8 ap-2 3 damage rokkits (shoot them into vehicles for actually decent shooting)
if your trukk blows up who cares even if you lose a few models just discard the squigs you need to take 4 deaths before you will fail a morale test and even then the nob allows a reroll to every failed ork since squigs don't count for morale.
next turn disembark and move your tankbustas and trukk advance, and fire your rokkits again, charge and atk with more str 8 ap-2 dam3, if its a target with super high invul use your 3 atk nob to hit the model with d3 mortal wounds or if your opponent kills your trukk he has a chance to take d3 more mortal wounds. There are few targets in game that can survive this.
Orks are good this edition BUT have specific builds that are good and a lot of junk.
So far I am thinking something like
Warboss on bike
Zhardsnark (depending on FW rules)
Painboy on bike (even though it has a movement restriction)
Weirdboy
3-6 manz (using da jump and slowly walking toward thier target at 4".)
5 tankbustas in trukk w wrecking ball, nob w tankhammer, 2 bomb squigs
X3 of the above (best unit in our dex)
Morkanaut w kff (and a Mek boy w grot inside)
30 choppa boy blob bubble wrapping morkanaut
3x warbikers with nob w big choppa (if zhardsnark allows warbikers troops for brigade FoC then Spam these x5)
3x deff koptas w bombs
15x stormboys w boss zagstruk (because they can assault flyers and our fastest obj grabbers and zags a beatstick that makes them Immune to morale)
Trakks and skorchas to harass your enemy w cheap resilient fast and deadly spam.
Kustom mega kannon x4 w lots of gunners
20+ Kommandos with as many burnas as you like, charge with them as soon as you can (hide snikrot behind them for even more)
take the brigade detachment for 12 command points which you don't need to use for reroll charge. Add as many grots, squigs, ammo runts etc as you can in units to ignore casualties and morale.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/02 18:13:06
2017/06/02 18:12:37
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
I'm not convinced we know what is junk yet, but I do see a lot of potential builds that may work. Things will shake out, but I think we are much better off than the last 2 editions at least.
2017/06/02 18:13:01
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
The supreme Irony here is that Orks do in fact pay for "Railgun" type weapons the same price that other factions pay. Lets take a look shall we? Space Marines pay 13pts for a Plasma Gun which hits on 3s. Orks pay 9 for that same type of weapon. Not bad, 4pt difference in price right? in 6 turns of shooting a SM will hit 4 times in 6 turns of shooting that ork will hit 2 times. (He will also die by rolling a 1) so those 4pts generate TWICE the number of hits. It gets worse as well, they pay the same price for comparable pistols and the Cannons? Oh my god. Plasma Cannon is 21pts for D3 hits (average 2 shots and 1.6 hits) We pay 23pts for the KMK which is D6 shot at BS2 average 3-4 on a roll which means 1- 1.3hits a turn. so paying more for less across the board. Whoops that feths your argument a bit huh?
Math is 100 rounds of shots for every combination of armor 2+ through 6+ and every T 3 through 12.
A lot of good Ork weapons are assault. The marine weapons are not. I think you'll find the math weighs this out below.
Notice how a moving weapon hovers around the 3.5 mark and a stationary weapon is around the 4.5 mark. The Ork weapons are perfectly in line with expectations.
You realize that most of those weapons you just compared are....Heavy. LMAO.
I am not going to pretend I understand the math you just did to get to those numbers so lets break it down another way.
In a Vacuum, no modifiers, no movement, no buffs, NOTHING.
Comparing a Plasma Gun toting Smurf against a KMB Toting ork and a Plasma Cannon Smurf vs a KMK on an Artillery platform.
Plasma weapons and Kustom weapons are exactly the same except Marines can choose to fire a weaker version without the chance of killing the firer. So right off the bat the Plasma weapon is better. Add in that Marines are BS4 to our BS2 and that those SMs will be 2+ armor in cover compared to our 5+ armor in cover or 3+ and 6+ standing in the open like idiots.
Plasma Gun costs 13pts and a KMB costs 9pts. So the plasma gun is 4pts more expensive.
Plasma Cannon costs 21Pts and the KMK costs 23pts. so the KMK is more expensive.
Plasma Pistol and KMS are exactly the same points cost.
in 100 rounds of shooting a Plasma gun at max range he will hit 67 times on average. At Half range he will hit 134times on average (rapid fire), he will overheat none of those times unless he chooses to increase strength/AP of the weapon
in 100 rounds of shooting a KMB at max range will hit 33 times on average he will also kill himself almost 17 times over. So at max range he will hit half as often and at half range 1/4th as often.
In 100 Rounds of shooting with a Plasma Cannon he will hit 133 times (rolling D2 on average) wounding himself 0 times unless he increases Strength/AP
In 100 Rounds of shooting a KMK will hit 100-130times on average (Average roll 3-4) He will overheat and kill wound himself 17 times.
The Pistol is exactly the same the results are just as terrible Marines hit 67 times the Ork 33 times.
The KMB is slightly less expensive then the Plasma gun but its assault so it gets to fire at 18in every turn, the Plasma is rapid fire.
The KMK is more expensive and LESS damaging then the Plasma Cannon.
So yes, I think I made my point well enough. Orks pay through the nose for comparable weapons which are significantly worse for them then other armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And to cut off the argument that other armies pay through the nose for Close combat stuff....yeah no.
We dont even have an invul save, a SM can get a 4++ for almost nothing.
A PK costs 25pts still and a PF for some reason is 20pts.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2017/06/02 18:18:38
Breng77 wrote: I'm not convinced we know what is junk yet, but I do see a lot of potential builds that may work. Things will shake out, but I think we are much better off than the last 2 editions at least.
Ok Why take burnas when you can take Kommandos that are cheaper, can infiltrate and get +2 cover save. have better leadership, more options and can take a special character that boost their melee in combat? sure you only get 2 burnas for 5 models but still?
I think dread mob might work but it can get REALLY expensive. I think FW choices is really what might make it work.
Other than that speedfreak is the only truly competitive list something like
Warboss on bike
Zhardsnark (depending on FW rules)
Painboy on bike (even though it has a movement restriction)
Weirdboy
3x manz (using da jump and slowly walking toward thier target at 4".) and honestly these and the weirdboy are optional.
5 tankbustas in trukk w wrecking ball, nob w tankhammer, 2 bomb squigs
X3 of the above (best unit in our dex)
Morkanaut w kff (and a Mek boy w grot inside because guaranteed 2 wounds a turn)
30 choppa boy blob bubble wrapping morkanaut
Maybe a nob w Waaggh banner following the blob
3x warbikers with nob w big choppa (if zhardsnark allows warbikers troops for brigade FoC then Spam these x5)
3x deff koptas w bombs
15x stormboys w boss zagstruk (because they can assault flyers and our fastest obj grabbers and zags a beatstick that makes them Immune to morale)
Trakks and skorchas to harass your enemy w cheap resilient fast and deadly spam.
Kustom mega kannon x4 w lots of gunners
3 x5 kommandos with 2x burnas each and boss snikrot
12 command points which you don't need to use for reroll charge. Add as many grots, squigs, ammo runts etc as you can to ignore casualties and morale.
Its very MSU-y but morale is almost no issue in most units and they all do a ton of damage and is very fast and can grab objectives fairly well With decent saves and a lot of bodies with fast characters who can give out multiple AOEs effects. There is not a lot of multi wounds in this list making all those lascannon type weapons all focused on your morkanaut, saving your trukks from being targeted. By the time most of your list gets into melee range meltas are pretty much pointless. Your morkanaut provides some turn 1-2 resiliency from shooting but is going to get beat down fast. It is the biggest threat once it gets into range and provides extra resiliency to your army. There are so many bigger priority targets that are quickly in your opponents deployment zone to shoot they will likely ignore your blob of 30 boyz move/advancing each turn that are inside a 5+ invul bubble that it will allow them to get into melee range.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2017/06/02 18:54:34
2017/06/02 18:26:27
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
Breng77 wrote: I'm not convinced we know what is junk yet, but I do see a lot of potential builds that may work. Things will shake out, but I think we are much better off than the last 2 editions at least.
Ok Why take burnas when you can take Kommandos that are cheaper, can infiltrate and get +2 cover save. have better leadership, more options and can take a special character that boost their melee in combat? sure you only get 2 burnas for 5 models but still?
Kommandos are 9pts a model so 5pts cheaper. you lose 3 Burnas but save 25pts and gain +2 to cover and infiltrate.....Nobody is going to take Burnas, simple as that.
Yeah I can't see why you'd take burnas instead of multiple squads of kommandos, as they are right now.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2017/06/02 18:34:16
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
Point on KMB and KMK, Ork overheat is more forgiving than Imperial overheat, as for Imperials, model is insta-killed, even if it was multi-wound, while Orks only take one wound no save. Also, fire non-overcharged cuts the damage in half vs multi-wound models compared to the damage of their Ork equivalents. BS 2 is still punishing for Orks though.
2017/06/02 18:34:49
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
The supreme Irony here is that Orks do in fact pay for "Railgun" type weapons the same price that other factions pay. Lets take a look shall we? Space Marines pay 13pts for a Plasma Gun which hits on 3s. Orks pay 9 for that same type of weapon. Not bad, 4pt difference in price right? in 6 turns of shooting a SM will hit 4 times in 6 turns of shooting that ork will hit 2 times. (He will also die by rolling a 1) so those 4pts generate TWICE the number of hits. It gets worse as well, they pay the same price for comparable pistols and the Cannons? Oh my god. Plasma Cannon is 21pts for D3 hits (average 2 shots and 1.6 hits) We pay 23pts for the KMK which is D6 shot at BS2 average 3-4 on a roll which means 1- 1.3hits a turn. so paying more for less across the board. Whoops that feths your argument a bit huh?
Math is 100 rounds of shots for every combination of armor 2+ through 6+ and every T 3 through 12.
A lot of good Ork weapons are assault. The marine weapons are not. I think you'll find the math weighs this out below.
Notice how a moving weapon hovers around the 3.5 mark and a stationary weapon is around the 4.5 mark. The Ork weapons are perfectly in line with expectations.
I am not going to pretend I understand the math you just did to get to those numbers so lets break it down another way.
In a Vacuum, no modifiers, no movement, no buffs, NOTHING.
Comparing a Plasma Gun toting Smurf against a KMB Toting ork and a Plasma Cannon Smurf vs a KMK on an Artillery platform.
Plasma weapons and Kustom weapons are exactly the same except Marines can choose to fire a weaker version without the chance of killing the firer. So right off the bat the Plasma weapon is better. Add in that Marines are BS4 to our BS2 and that those SMs will be 2+ armor in cover compared to our 5+ armor in cover or 3+ and 6+ standing in the open like idiots.
Plasma Gun costs 13pts and a KMB costs 9pts. So the plasma gun is 4pts more expensive.
Plasma Cannon costs 21Pts and the KMK costs 23pts. so the KMK is more expensive.
Plasma Pistol and KMS are exactly the same points cost.
in 100 rounds of shooting a Plasma gun at max range he will hit 67 times on average. At Half range he will hit 134times on average (rapid fire), he will overheat none of those times unless he chooses to increase strength/AP of the weapon
in 100 rounds of shooting a KMB at max range will hit 33 times on average he will also kill himself almost 17 times over. So at max range he will hit half as often and at half range 1/4th as often.
In 100 Rounds of shooting with a Plasma Cannon he will hit 133 times (rolling D2 on average) wounding himself 0 times unless he increases Strength/AP
In 100 Rounds of shooting a KMK will hit 100-130times on average (Average roll 3-4) He will overheat and kill wound himself 17 times.
The Pistol is exactly the same the results are just as terrible Marines hit 67 times the Ork 33 times.
The KMB is slightly less expensive then the Plasma gun but its assault so it gets to fire at 18in every turn, the Plasma is rapid fire.
The KMK is more expensive and LESS damaging then the Plasma Cannon.
So yes, I think I made my point well enough. Orks pay through the nose for comparable weapons which are significantly worse for them then other armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And to cut off the argument that other armies pay through the nose for Close combat stuff....yeah no.
We dont even have an invul save, a SM can get a 4++ for almost nothing.
A PK costs 25pts still and a PF for some reason is 20pts.
You realize that most of those weapons you just compared are....Heavy. LMAO.
Killcannon is mounted on the Battlewagon which ignores move penalties.
Kannon and Zzap are heavy and have the same non-moving value as the marine weapons.
Koptarokkits are assualt.
Kustom megakannon is on the 'naut which ignores move modifiers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/02 18:35:10
2017/06/02 18:35:08
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: Point on KMB and KMK, Ork overheat is more forgiving than Imperial overheat, as for Imperials, model is insta-killed, even if it was multi-wound, while Orks only take one wound no save. Also, fire non-overcharged cuts the damage in half vs multi-wound models compared to the damage of their Ork equivalents. BS 2 is still punishing for Orks though.
I was unaware that SM Captains and characters were toting Plasma Cannons
That isn't a serious downside. And like I said, they are more then welcome to be crazy with Plasma like orks. The difference is the Ork player has half as much chance to kill himself as he does to hit the target. A Space Marine has a 25% to kill himself compared to hitting his target, with only a 2 missing.
The supreme Irony here is that Orks do in fact pay for "Railgun" type weapons the same price that other factions pay. Lets take a look shall we? Space Marines pay 13pts for a Plasma Gun which hits on 3s. Orks pay 9 for that same type of weapon. Not bad, 4pt difference in price right? in 6 turns of shooting a SM will hit 4 times in 6 turns of shooting that ork will hit 2 times. (He will also die by rolling a 1) so those 4pts generate TWICE the number of hits. It gets worse as well, they pay the same price for comparable pistols and the Cannons? Oh my god. Plasma Cannon is 21pts for D3 hits (average 2 shots and 1.6 hits) We pay 23pts for the KMK which is D6 shot at BS2 average 3-4 on a roll which means 1- 1.3hits a turn. so paying more for less across the board. Whoops that feths your argument a bit huh?
Math is 100 rounds of shots for every combination of armor 2+ through 6+ and every T 3 through 12.
A lot of good Ork weapons are assault. The marine weapons are not. I think you'll find the math weighs this out below.
Notice how a moving weapon hovers around the 3.5 mark and a stationary weapon is around the 4.5 mark. The Ork weapons are perfectly in line with expectations.
I am not going to pretend I understand the math you just did to get to those numbers so lets break it down another way.
In a Vacuum, no modifiers, no movement, no buffs, NOTHING.
Comparing a Plasma Gun toting Smurf against a KMB Toting ork and a Plasma Cannon Smurf vs a KMK on an Artillery platform.
Plasma weapons and Kustom weapons are exactly the same except Marines can choose to fire a weaker version without the chance of killing the firer. So right off the bat the Plasma weapon is better. Add in that Marines are BS4 to our BS2 and that those SMs will be 2+ armor in cover compared to our 5+ armor in cover or 3+ and 6+ standing in the open like idiots.
Plasma Gun costs 13pts and a KMB costs 9pts. So the plasma gun is 4pts more expensive.
Plasma Cannon costs 21Pts and the KMK costs 23pts. so the KMK is more expensive.
Plasma Pistol and KMS are exactly the same points cost.
in 100 rounds of shooting a Plasma gun at max range he will hit 67 times on average. At Half range he will hit 134times on average (rapid fire), he will overheat none of those times unless he chooses to increase strength/AP of the weapon
in 100 rounds of shooting a KMB at max range will hit 33 times on average he will also kill himself almost 17 times over. So at max range he will hit half as often and at half range 1/4th as often.
In 100 Rounds of shooting with a Plasma Cannon he will hit 133 times (rolling D2 on average) wounding himself 0 times unless he increases Strength/AP
In 100 Rounds of shooting a KMK will hit 100-130times on average (Average roll 3-4) He will overheat and kill wound himself 17 times.
The Pistol is exactly the same the results are just as terrible Marines hit 67 times the Ork 33 times.
The KMB is slightly less expensive then the Plasma gun but its assault so it gets to fire at 18in every turn, the Plasma is rapid fire.
The KMK is more expensive and LESS damaging then the Plasma Cannon.
So yes, I think I made my point well enough. Orks pay through the nose for comparable weapons which are significantly worse for them then other armies.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And to cut off the argument that other armies pay through the nose for Close combat stuff....yeah no.
We dont even have an invul save, a SM can get a 4++ for almost nothing.
A PK costs 25pts still and a PF for some reason is 20pts.
You realize that most of those weapons you just compared are....Heavy. LMAO.
Killcannon is mounted on the Battlewagon which ignores move penalties.
Kannon and Zzap are heavy and have the same non-moving value as the marine weapons.
Koptarokkits are assualt.
Kustom megakannon is on the 'naut which ignores move modifiers.
KMKs are significantly more common on Artillery pieces then on a Morkanaut for the simple reason of PRICE. you can field about 10 KMKs for the price of a single Morkanaut.
Also, Kill Kannons suck big time. I have no idea how you got them doing so much damage. they are a single D6 shots per turn so 3.5 shots on average which = 1.13ish hits a turn x 100 = 113 hits in 100 turns on average. At S7 Ap-2? yeah not exactly scary, especially with the price of the damned thing and its ridiculously short range.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/02 18:43:39
Comparing a Plasma Gun toting Smurf against a KMB Toting ork and a Plasma Cannon Smurf vs a KMK on an Artillery platform.
Plasma weapons and Kustom weapons are exactly the same except Marines can choose to fire a weaker version without the chance of killing the firer. So right off the bat the Plasma weapon is better. Add in that Marines are BS4 to our BS2 and that those SMs will be 2+ armor in cover compared to our 5+ armor in cover or 3+ and 6+ standing in the open like idiots.
Incorrect.
KMB causes 1 mortal wound. Plasma Gun kills the model.
KMB is cheaper and is almost as good at the plasma gun rapid firing or overcharging without rapid fire. And it doesn't kill the model outright.
Plasma Cannon costs 21Pts and the KMK costs 23pts. so the KMK is more expensive.
A Plasma Cannon is no different (on average) that a rapid firing Plasma Gun other than costing more:
A KMK gives out ONE mortal wound PER salvo. A Plasma Cannon kills the model.
An Executioner Plasma Cannon woulds the bearer like the KMK. It's values are as follows:
So once again an Ork weapon that sees no move penalty is commensurate with a SM weapon with a move penalty.
The math is not on your side. You can run the numbers all you want, but until you properly tie it to points it means jack.
2017/06/02 19:04:43
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
Breng77 wrote: I'm not convinced we know what is junk yet, but I do see a lot of potential builds that may work. Things will shake out, but I think we are much better off than the last 2 editions at least.
Ok Why take burnas when you can take Kommandos that are cheaper, can infiltrate and get +2 cover save. have better leadership, more options and can take a special character that boost their melee in combat? sure you only get 2 burnas for 5 models but still?
Kommandos are 9pts a model so 5pts cheaper. you lose 3 Burnas but save 25pts and gain +2 to cover and infiltrate.....Nobody is going to take Burnas, simple as that.
whut.... :(
That doesn't make any sense
Inactive, user. New profile might pop up in a while
2017/06/02 19:05:30
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
Breng77 wrote: I'm not convinced we know what is junk yet, but I do see a lot of potential builds that may work. Things will shake out, but I think we are much better off than the last 2 editions at least.
Ok Why take burnas when you can take Kommandos that are cheaper, can infiltrate and get +2 cover save. have better leadership, more options and can take a special character that boost their melee in combat? sure you only get 2 burnas for 5 models but still?
I think dread mob might work but it can get REALLY expensive. I think FW choices is really what might make it work.
Other than that speedfreak is the only truly competitive list something like
Warboss on bike
Zhardsnark (depending on FW rules)
Painboy on bike (even though it has a movement restriction)
Weirdboy
3x manz (using da jump and slowly walking toward thier target at 4".) and honestly these and the weirdboy are optional.
5 tankbustas in trukk w wrecking ball, nob w tankhammer, 2 bomb squigs
X3 of the above (best unit in our dex)
Morkanaut w kff (and a Mek boy w grot inside because guaranteed 2 wounds a turn)
30 choppa boy blob bubble wrapping morkanaut
Maybe a nob w Waaggh banner following the blob
3x warbikers with nob w big choppa (if zhardsnark allows warbikers troops for brigade FoC then Spam these x5)
3x deff koptas w bombs
15x stormboys w boss zagstruk (because they can assault flyers and our fastest obj grabbers and zags a beatstick that makes them Immune to morale)
Trakks and skorchas to harass your enemy w cheap resilient fast and deadly spam.
Kustom mega kannon x4 w lots of gunners
3 x5 kommandos with 2x burnas each and boss snikrot
12 command points which you don't need to use for reroll charge. Add as many grots, squigs, ammo runts etc as you can to ignore casualties and morale.
Its very MSU-y but morale is almost no issue in most units and they all do a ton of damage and is very fast and can grab objectives fairly well With decent saves and a lot of bodies with fast characters who can give out multiple AOEs effects. There is not a lot of multi wounds in this list making all those lascannon type weapons all focused on your morkanaut, saving your trukks from being targeted. By the time most of your list gets into melee range meltas are pretty much pointless. Your morkanaut provides some turn 1-2 resiliency from shooting but is going to get beat down fast. There are so many bigger priority targets for your opponent to shoot they will likely ignore your blob of 30 boyz inside a 5+ invul bubble allowing them to get into range.
Because you are making assumptions about what works based on your current knowledge of the game and not actually playing 8th. I can think of other things I think might work. I agree mostly on Burnas, if we see say lots of other horde infantry, your list might struggle, and Burnas might be worth it. I agree with the idea of target overload idea seeming the most viable from the first look, as it allows your slower things to make it where you need. As for command points, you might use some for charges as they allow a 1 dice re-roll so if you have kommandos that need a 9" charge and you roll a 6 and a 1, spending a command point is better than using ere we go as it gives you a 66% chance of making the charge.
Burnas might also be good for taking Spanners though they are expensive, auto healing your trukk might not be bad.
For your tankbustas I don't think the Nob can take the tank hammer, the only option he has is replacing his rokkit with a choppy weapon.
2017/06/02 19:07:58
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
SuspiciousSucculent wrote: Point on KMB and KMK, Ork overheat is more forgiving than Imperial overheat, as for Imperials, model is insta-killed, even if it was multi-wound, while Orks only take one wound no save. Also, fire non-overcharged cuts the damage in half vs multi-wound models compared to the damage of their Ork equivalents. BS 2 is still punishing for Orks though.
I was unaware that SM Captains and characters were toting Plasma Cannons
That isn't a serious downside. And like I said, they are more then welcome to be crazy with Plasma like orks. The difference is the Ork player has half as much chance to kill himself as he does to hit the target. A Space Marine has a 25% to kill himself compared to hitting his target, with only a 2 missing.
But you do see armored sentinels toting them around. Primaris have 2 wounds and take plasma guns. Bikers have 2 wounds and take plasma guns. Leman Russ tanks need a special rule so that they only take 6 wounds instead of insta-dying if they roll a 1 on their plasma. I could go on. And any character who wants to take a nice shiny plasma pistol is basically committing to only using it at half power.
2017/06/02 20:08:32
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
Breng77 wrote: I'm not convinced we know what is junk yet, but I do see a lot of potential builds that may work. Things will shake out, but I think we are much better off than the last 2 editions at least.
Ok Why take burnas when you can take Kommandos that are cheaper, can infiltrate and get +2 cover save. have better leadership, more options and can take a special character that boost their melee in combat? sure you only get 2 burnas for 5 models but still?
I think dread mob might work but it can get REALLY expensive. I think FW choices is really what might make it work.
Other than that speedfreak is the only truly competitive list something like
Warboss on bike
Zhardsnark (depending on FW rules)
Painboy on bike (even though it has a movement restriction)
Weirdboy
3x manz (using da jump and slowly walking toward thier target at 4".) and honestly these and the weirdboy are optional.
5 tankbustas in trukk w wrecking ball, nob w tankhammer, 2 bomb squigs
X3 of the above (best unit in our dex)
Morkanaut w kff (and a Mek boy w grot inside because guaranteed 2 wounds a turn)
30 choppa boy blob bubble wrapping morkanaut
Maybe a nob w Waaggh banner following the blob
3x warbikers with nob w big choppa (if zhardsnark allows warbikers troops for brigade FoC then Spam these x5)
3x deff koptas w bombs
15x stormboys w boss zagstruk (because they can assault flyers and our fastest obj grabbers and zags a beatstick that makes them Immune to morale)
Trakks and skorchas to harass your enemy w cheap resilient fast and deadly spam.
Kustom mega kannon x4 w lots of gunners
3 x5 kommandos with 2x burnas each and boss snikrot
12 command points which you don't need to use for reroll charge. Add as many grots, squigs, ammo runts etc as you can to ignore casualties and morale.
Its very MSU-y but morale is almost no issue in most units and they all do a ton of damage and is very fast and can grab objectives fairly well With decent saves and a lot of bodies with fast characters who can give out multiple AOEs effects. There is not a lot of multi wounds in this list making all those lascannon type weapons all focused on your morkanaut, saving your trukks from being targeted. By the time most of your list gets into melee range meltas are pretty much pointless. Your morkanaut provides some turn 1-2 resiliency from shooting but is going to get beat down fast. There are so many bigger priority targets for your opponent to shoot they will likely ignore your blob of 30 boyz inside a 5+ invul bubble allowing them to get into range.
Because you are making assumptions about what works based on your current knowledge of the game and not actually playing 8th. I can think of other things I think might work. I agree mostly on Burnas, if we see say lots of other horde infantry, your list might struggle, and Burnas might be worth it. I agree with the idea of target overload idea seeming the most viable from the first look, as it allows your slower things to make it where you need. As for command points, you might use some for charges as they allow a 1 dice re-roll so if you have kommandos that need a 9" charge and you roll a 6 and a 1, spending a command point is better than using ere we go as it gives you a 66% chance of making the charge.
Burnas might also be good for taking Spanners though they are expensive, auto healing your trukk might not be bad.
For your tankbustas I don't think the Nob can take the tank hammer, the only option he has is replacing his rokkit with a choppy weapon.
Ya I messed up with the nob w tankhammer wanted to give him one because his extra atk gave more reliability to the tank hammer going off but it will need to go on another boy. My other issue with the list is multiple special characters from multiple clans wont work in 1 brigade FoC and I may need to break it into 2 FOCS also you are right I don't know what zhardsnark does nor things like meka dreads or mega dreads or Buzzgrob which are all current models in the FW book that might make a dread mob more viable. My only issue with the dread mob is it can get expensive quickly.
at d3 hits burnaboys are still not worth it and we have better anti horde options. I get what your saying as we haven't played the index yet but its not really that hard to see CERTAIN choices aren't that good. I realize you were a tester but don't take it personally.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/02 20:24:32
2017/06/02 20:19:45
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
Comparing a Plasma Gun toting Smurf against a KMB Toting ork and a Plasma Cannon Smurf vs a KMK on an Artillery platform.
Plasma weapons and Kustom weapons are exactly the same except Marines can choose to fire a weaker version without the chance of killing the firer. So right off the bat the Plasma weapon is better. Add in that Marines are BS4 to our BS2 and that those SMs will be 2+ armor in cover compared to our 5+ armor in cover or 3+ and 6+ standing in the open like idiots.
Incorrect.
KMB causes 1 mortal wound. Plasma Gun kills the model.
KMB is cheaper and is almost as good at the plasma gun rapid firing or overcharging without rapid fire. And it doesn't kill the model outright.
Plasma Cannon costs 21Pts and the KMK costs 23pts. so the KMK is more expensive.
A Plasma Cannon is no different (on average) that a rapid firing Plasma Gun other than costing more:
A KMK gives out ONE mortal wound PER salvo. A Plasma Cannon kills the model.
An Executioner Plasma Cannon woulds the bearer like the KMK. It's values are as follows:
So once again an Ork weapon that sees no move penalty is commensurate with a SM weapon with a move penalty.
The math is not on your side. You can run the numbers all you want, but until you properly tie it to points it means jack.
your numbers mean jack my friend since they dont relate to the game either. You keep pushing out 4.2s and other nonsensical number to make ork weapons look better. The FACT IS that ork weapons cost almost the exact same and do significantly less on average then their SM equivalents. I could do other comparisons if you would like they all equal the same thing.
Ork gun lines are dead and never have a chance now because of all these nerfs theyve taken.
Melissia wrote: Yeah I can't see why you'd take burnas instead of multiple squads of kommandos, as they are right now.
Morale...
20>8
10>4
5>2
Trukks are fine, Burnas seem a wee high, but not shelf relegated.
Some folks only see empty glasses, some folks only see half empty glasses, some folks see half full glasses, some folks see full glasses. Orks smash the glass regardless...
Quit 'r bellyaching and git to smashing...
si vis pacem, para bellum
2017/06/02 20:26:49
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
Melissia wrote: Yeah I can't see why you'd take burnas instead of multiple squads of kommandos, as they are right now.
Morale...
20>8
10>4
5>2
Trukks are fine, Burnas seem a wee high, but not shelf relegated.
Some folks only see empty glasses, some folks only see half empty glasses, some folks see half full glasses, some folks see full glasses. Orks smash the glass regardless...
Quit 'r bellyaching and git to smashing...
I did that through all of 6th an 7th edition and tried to keep a smile on my face as my opponents made me pickup my army by the end of the 2nd turn.
Sorry if i've lost faith in this company since they've been screwing my faction over for close to a decade now.
Melissia wrote: Yeah I can't see why you'd take burnas instead of multiple squads of kommandos, as they are right now.
Morale...
20>8
10>4
5>2
Trukks are fine, Burnas seem a wee high, but not shelf relegated.
Some folks only see empty glasses, some folks only see half empty glasses, some folks see half full glasses, some folks see full glasses. Orks smash the glass regardless...
Quit 'r bellyaching and git to smashing...
I did that through all of 6th an 7th edition and tried to keep a smile on my face as my opponents made me pickup my army by the end of the 2nd turn.
Sorry if i've lost faith in this company since they've been screwing my faction over for close to a decade now.
I'll bet you a beer that things are even half as depressing as you seem to be determined they are. Give it 3 weeks and we'll have some youtube batreps to go over. I bet that they feature lootas smooshing gits from afar, and trukks carrying mobs around like maniacs
The fluff is like ketchup and mustard on a burger. Yes it's desirable, yes it makes things better, but no it doesn't fundamentally change what you're eating and no you shouldn't just drown the whole meal in it.
2017/06/02 20:33:43
Subject: Orks seem to be even weaker relative to marines (and others).
Melissia wrote: Yeah I can't see why you'd take burnas instead of multiple squads of kommandos, as they are right now.
Morale...
20>8
10>4
5>2
Trukks are fine, Burnas seem a wee high, but not shelf relegated.
Some folks only see empty glasses, some folks only see half empty glasses, some folks see half full glasses, some folks see full glasses. Orks smash the glass regardless...
Quit 'r bellyaching and git to smashing...
Morale isn't an issue for 5 man Kommandos
they each have a nob with ld7
a 5 man unit would need to take 2 casualties to fail a morale check on a 6, 3 casualties to fail on a 5 and 4 casualties to fail on a 4. 5 and your squad is already wiped out. At worst you are only ever likely to lose 1 model to morale.
3 man squads with ld7 are basically immune.
Its better to stay with 2x 5 men kommando squads at ld7 than to take 5 burnas with their ld6. that drop from ld7 to 6 is huge it means you need to roll for morale for EVERY casualty (not counting the special rule if the burna killed anyone)
Orks are fine people, just not every list is going to be great.... Trukks are awesome and people are seriously discounting how decent they will be in melee. Trukks are a suicide unit that complements orks which are an assault unit. I want my trukks to get into combat swing its 3pt wrecking ball and explode for a chance at mortal wounds on the unit. Hopefully before my unit gets into combat and dies to its own exploding trukk.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/06/02 20:41:25
