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 Talamare wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

But in this current game I had 2 20+ boy squads put 7 wounds on a soul grinder with their pistols before charging it and killing it.

Can I have your dice? Cause wow... That just sounds amazingly lucky.

40 * 1/3 accuracy * 1/3 wounds * 1/3 saves = 1.5

So yea, definitely lucky
Wait!! he said 20"""+"""" Boyz, so Let's say it was 60 Boyz

60 * 1/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 2.22

... meh
Altho, They would do well during the actual melee
4 attacks per Boyz since they kept their Pistols means 160-240 attacks
160 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 11.85
240 * 2/3 * 1/3 * 1/3 = 17.77

Soul Grinders have 14 wounds, so definitely possible

He had taken a few wounds from the turn before bu one squad had 25 the other had 22.

This is a good example of why math hammer is essentially pointless.

mhalko1 wrote:
I'm currently on my 4th game with orks. The first 3 were against Blood angels the 4th still going on aka have to finish it tonight, is against daemons. The first 3 are ork victories and this 4th one started out rough but looks to be turning into yet another victory. I don't know what you're seeing that makes orks look nerfed in comparison. But in this current game I had 2 20+ boy squads put 7 wounds on a soul grinder with their pistols before charging it and killing it. Shokk attack guns have been killing landraiders with their D6 damage. Weirdboys have also reliably been putting D6 mortal wounds onto vehicles with the Waagh Energy special rule. Character buffs are a different story because having them in range but not make a charge can end up with units out of range unless you string them out.

FYI, shokk guns do D3. You've been cheating.

mhalko1 wrote:
I'm currently on my 4th game with orks. The first 3 were against Blood angels the 4th still going on aka have to finish it tonight, is against daemons. The first 3 are ork victories and this 4th one started out rough but looks to be turning into yet another victory. I don't know what you're seeing that makes orks look nerfed in comparison. But in this current game I had 2 20+ boy squads put 7 wounds on a soul grinder with their pistols before charging it and killing it. Shokk attack guns have been killing landraiders with their D6 damage. Weirdboys have also reliably been putting D6 mortal wounds onto vehicles with the Waagh Energy special rule. Character buffs are a different story because having them in range but not make a charge can end up with units out of range unless you string them out.

Orks are definitely strong right now but Shokk Attack Guns do D3 damage not D6. Doing double damage to one of your opponent's most expensive units is going to have a big effect on the outcome.

Sincollector wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
I'm currently on my 4th game with orks. The first 3 were against Blood angels the 4th still going on aka have to finish it tonight, is against daemons. The first 3 are ork victories and this 4th one started out rough but looks to be turning into yet another victory. I don't know what you're seeing that makes orks look nerfed in comparison. But in this current game I had 2 20+ boy squads put 7 wounds on a soul grinder with their pistols before charging it and killing it. Shokk attack guns have been killing landraiders with their D6 damage. Weirdboys have also reliably been putting D6 mortal wounds onto vehicles with the Waagh Energy special rule. Character buffs are a different story because having them in range but not make a charge can end up with units out of range unless you string them out.

Orks are definitely strong right now but Shokk Attack Guns do D3 damage not D6. Doing double damage to one of your opponent's most expensive units is going to have a big effect on the outcome.

Have you guys thought that he maaaaaybe misremembered now the damage output of the gun when typing it but, with the book in front of him, he did it right?

Lord Kragan wrote:

Sincollector wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
I'm currently on my 4th game with orks. The first 3 were against Blood angels the 4th still going on aka have to finish it tonight, is against daemons. The first 3 are ork victories and this 4th one started out rough but looks to be turning into yet another victory. I don't know what you're seeing that makes orks look nerfed in comparison. But in this current game I had 2 20+ boy squads put 7 wounds on a soul grinder with their pistols before charging it and killing it. Shokk attack guns have been killing landraiders with their D6 damage. Weirdboys have also reliably been putting D6 mortal wounds onto vehicles with the Waagh Energy special rule. Character buffs are a different story because having them in range but not make a charge can end up with units out of range unless you string them out.

Orks are definitely strong right now but Shokk Attack Guns do D3 damage not D6. Doing double damage to one of your opponent's most expensive units is going to have a big effect on the outcome.

Have you guys thought that he maaaaaybe misremembered now the damage output of the gun when typing it but, with the book in front of him, he did it right?

Sure. But he can come back and clarify that so we know if his battle report is accurate or not. Since shokk attack guns wouldn't be a great way to kill a Land Raider in most cases it seemed likely that he had it wrong. It's 40K-- we all make rules mistakes.

the joke has to be made.. and in no way should be reflected as against the person providing game information,

how do orks win? they cheat!*

*I in no way condone cheating

 davou wrote:

mhalko1 wrote:
I'm currently on my 4th game with orks. The first 3 were against Blood angels the 4th still going on aka have to finish it tonight, is against daemons. The first 3 are ork victories and this 4th one started out rough but looks to be turning into yet another victory. I don't know what you're seeing that makes orks look nerfed in comparison. But in this current game I had 2 20+ boy squads put 7 wounds on a soul grinder with their pistols before charging it and killing it. Shokk attack guns have been killing landraiders with their D6 damage. Weirdboys have also reliably been putting D6 mortal wounds onto vehicles with the Waagh Energy special rule. Character buffs are a different story because having them in range but not make a charge can end up with units out of range unless you string them out.

All I wanted to hear was that people were winning around half their games with orks. Winning most of them is a pleasant surprise, but I certainly hope that things like that are adjusted quickly.

Also I suspect that actual games happening now kicked the legs out from under Sempers naysaying Lets hope he can enjoy his army now

Yep, a bunch of players playing a new game, getting numerous rules wrong and a handful of anecdotal evidence is going to completely flip my perspective....

I'll wait for the first tournament results to come back and see how badly orks suck. So far every Batrep Ive seen has had huge problems with rules. Not their fault though, its a new edition with lots of changes so this is to be expected.

And of course all the rules problems only benefit the Orks...

SemperMortis wrote:



Yep, a bunch of players playing a new game, getting numerous rules wrong and a handful of anecdotal evidence is going to completely flip my perspective....

I'll wait for the first tournament results to come back and see how badly orks suck. So far every Batrep Ive seen has had huge problems with rules. Not their fault though, its a new edition with lots of changes so this is to be expected.

Yep, everyone is getting all the rules wrong, in exactly the right way to benefit orks, except you of course... Who has been correct all along despite everyone disagreeing with you and all the evidence to the contrary? Is that were we are now? or are you back to thinking perhaps people have been paid to disagree with your take on it?

well I got my first game in last night. a friend wanted to do 52 power level points.

I brought
a big mek w/ kff,
a painboy
2 units of 30 boyz, 3 big shootas, nob w/ pk
1 units of 3 wartraxx w/ rack o rockets
1 unit of 1 wartraxx w/ rtack o rockets

it was against

space marine capatain with lightning claw
chaplain with power fist and jump pack
assault squad 2 had plasma pistols, one had a power axe
1 assault cannon dred
1 unit of sternguard
2 units of 10 tac marines with a heavy bolter and flamer each

we did the new kill points one just whoever has the most points a the end. 4x4 table.

orks literally just were point, shoot, stick in combat.

to shooting I lost a few boyz (maybe 10) and a wartraxx before getting in, the new advance rule plus er we go netted me turn 2 charges. for all but 1 unit of boyz, the kff big mek and painboy who got in turn 3

the painboy i am probably not going to use in the future. he seemed like wasted points, saved 1 boy, in close combat he might have a place with ork nobx restoring wounds but for the points just bring more nob bikes

the big mek with kff was questionable, he saved like 2 boyz. I would have been better off with a warboss. however until/if they bring ard boys back it is the best save boyz can get.

30 boys w/ nob took 3 rounds of combat to down a drednaught and by then had been joined by a captain who died the same turn. sternguard vaporized under ork assault and piled into another combat with tac marines in cover. fortunately his assault marines kept missing assaults with 1 roll of 3" and 1 roll of 5" and I was able to shoot them down to 3 before they got in with a volley of traxx rokkits

the wartraxx with 4 str 4 attacks and 6 wounds were decent in combat vs tac marines. the chaplain came in to help and wiped them. they more tied up the tacs than actually bringing them down. killed 4 in 2 rounds of combat.

boys do much better in combat with their str 4 but still died in droves when shot.

orks eeked out a win with 18 points on the table to 12 for space marines

I had 20 boyz w/ pk nob
1 boy w/ pk nob (kept passing morale by the end they killed a captain, a dreadnaught, 3 assault marines and almost finished the chaplain)
painboy was in combat with 4 tac marines he was charged the last turn by the squad who brought the other boyz down to 20
kff big mek helped with a few tac marines nothing of note though i guess the few saved boyz gave me 3 points

he had 5 tac marines
chaplain

it was a fun match that could have gone either way.

Been doing some theory hammer. No table time yet.

Theory #1:
Stormboyz can go in trukks now.

So imagine you take 3 trukks, 3 units of boyz / nobz / Tankbustas and 3 units of Stormboyz that are each 5 boyz + Nob. Deploy the stormboyz in the trukks with the other units right behind them. On turn 1 Stormboyz disembark 3" Move 12" Run d6" <- good place to use a CP reroll, and charge 2D6" For a maximum threat range of 33" on turn 1. More likely you are looking at 27", but that is still enough for a T1 charge to get in and tarpit something shooty for a turn. Maybe tie up a transport, so you guarantee board control.


Theory #2:
Flash Gitz and Nobz got a stealth durability upgrade. Ammo Runts. 4 point ablative wounds. Got Hit by a Lascannon? Kill an ammo runt. Battlewagon explodes? Kill an ammo runt.

That right there is fun.



Theory #3:
Battlewagons seems like a better transport than Trukks on a point for point basis.

With a transport capacity of 20, and the ability to transport multiple units, make use of that transport capacity. My 1st thought was Flash Gitz plus meganobz. But the more I think about it, Meganobz just don't really bring much to 8th ed except a big price tags. Nobz on the other hand, are cheap enough, and durable enough to really fit in. So Flash Gitz plus Nobz. No still not liking it. Flash Gitz have short range, but Heavy weapons, so you don't want to move (pending the Mobile Fortress rules clarification). Also, all those sweet ablative wounds eat up spots in the wagon. What else. Tankbustas. Assault weapons. Now we stick nobz in there as a counter charge unit. Barely even need to give the upgrades. Just an ammo runt or 2 to eat explosions.



Theory #4
Big Mek on Bike the king of shooting.

The Big Mek can take 2 Kombi-Skorchas. Put him on bike, and he is shooting 6 guns potentially at different targets, repairing a vehicle and charging all in one turn. That right there is nutz. If you want to go hog wild, you can replace a kombi-skorcha with SAG.



Extra: The theory that fell apart as soon as I started doing math.

I'd lover to hear your thoughts on Bomb Squigs vs Tankbustas Vs Tankhammers Vs Pistol Busters vs Nobs w/ Big Choppas.

I've been having trouble jumping on the bomb squig train. He's 10/17th as expensive as another busta, but his output per use is only about twice as good. Sounds great, right?

Against vehicles, he auto hits (practically) where the busta hits 20/36 times, just better than half. The damage output at d6 is only a little better than the reliable 3.

But he can only be used once, has shorter range and can't hit flyers at all.

If you are thinking the bustas will only get 2 shots per game, then he has about the same output yet much cheaper than a rocketeer. But if the bustas shoot 4 times in a game, suddenly the plain busta is twice as good for less than twice the price.

On top of that, the busta is much better in combat, if push comes to shove.

All in all, I don't think the squig is the panacea that he's made out to be. (full disclosure...haven't actually played 8th yet.... )

Here is a chart of Tankbusta performance

***Edit: Charts removed, and re-posted after corrections***

The squig is a complement to a busta squad and is the highest damage per shot. If your expecting every rokkit boy to survive 3-4 turns to outperform a squig that's never going to happen. while rokkit tankbustas can shoot flyers and get into combat they are fairly bad at both. They don't have a melee weapon so use base stats and even a 6+ rerollable is pretty bad odds vS flyers. Furthermore the benefit to taking squigs is you can always use them as ablative wounds that ignore morale. You lose a model on a destroyed vehicle? Kill a squig get shot and lose a model kill a squig. You won't fail morale. Furthermore 18in isn't that far off from 24in. With most deployments 24in apart and a 12in movement on trukks assault squigs are reliable first turn


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tag8833 wrote:
Here is a chart of Tankbusta performance

Vs Knights

Spoiler:

Vs Dreads

Spoiler:

Vs Rowboat Girlyman

Spoiler:

VS Terminators

Spoiler:

So yeah, against VEHICLES a bomb squig puts out 2x the damage of a Rokkit, but only does it once. Against non-vehicles the output is much starker. BS are Terminator Killers. I don't feel that is very fluffy but it is interesting.
The TB bomb was disappointing once I ran the numbers. It's still useful if you have a BC Nob or Tankhammer, but generally You want to avoid.
Rokkit Pistols are great, but have limited range.

Seeing these numbers, its tempting to make sure you have a Nob w/ at least a BC in the squad. You just do so little effective damage on average without close combat wargear.

I'll run a similar set of numbers for Lootas, Flashgitz, and Nobz

numbers are a bit off rocket pistols are str7 not str8 and d3 not 3 damage.Nobs are 3+ bs but the Pk is -1 hit so 4+ bs. Busta bombs are 6" not 4". Something is messed up with the saves on the knight in melee the bc is -1 the rokkit is 0 ap and yet the rokkit has more through the save when the knight has a 3+ Vs the rokkit. The tankbustas bomb is significantly better than the rokkit it has d3 hits and d6 damage (your hits are off). There is a bit off on that chart and I haven t gotten out of the knight profile. That chart is mostly unusable. Bomb squigs are by far the best damage especially per point spent considering a rokkit boy is nearly double cost 17ppm vs 10ppm. Tankbusta bombs are not far behind. Both rokkits and pistols are behind those 2 with rokkits being better than pistols vs everything but toughness 6 or lower and 1-2 wound models. However I don't know any vehicles that fit that criteria so unless your making a melee busta unit w nob w bc and 2x tankhammers I don't know why you'd take the pistols.

Edit: Arrgh. confused myself. Thought I was posting in the tactica thread. I think Orks are fine vs marines. I'll take my tactica over the appropriate place.

Play testers put Orks as a top tier. Given their pedigree vs random guy theory hammering, I'd say the OP is just wrong.

 Lobukia wrote:
Play testers put Orks as a top tier. Given their pedigree vs random guy theory hammering, I'd say the OP is just wrong.

Yeah, those same play testers also predicted Orks would do well in 7th where as the Random Guy theory hammering put orks bottom tier.

I'll take Random Guy Theory Hammering over FLG's opinion any day of the week.

 JimOnMars wrote:
I've been having trouble jumping on the bomb squig train. He's 10/17th as expensive as another busta, but his output per use is only about twice as good. Sounds great, right?

Against vehicles, he auto hits (practically) where the busta hits 20/36 times, just better than half. The damage output at d6 is only a little better than the reliable 3.

But he can only be used once, has shorter range and can't hit flyers at all.

If you are thinking the bustas will only get 2 shots per game, then he has about the same output yet much cheaper than a rocketeer. But if the bustas shoot 4 times in a game, suddenly the plain busta is twice as good for less than twice the price.

On top of that, the busta is much better in combat, if push comes to shove.

All in all, I don't think the squig is the panacea that he's made out to be. (full disclosure...haven't actually played 8th yet.... )

The point with bomb squigs is that orks aren't fit to survive for long and several units are expendable ones. Tankbustas are one of them. Their purpose is to wreck a single target, once they achieved that goal everything that comes after is pure gold. A big unit of tankbustas is a primary target and without the trukk protection they're dead in a single turn. In a BW they become extremely expensive now. That's why having a couple of squigs (basically the cost of a single busta) may worth it. I don't see a unit of tankbustas surviving more than 3 maybe 4 turns, even with the new vehicles stats. A single bomb squig maybe adds not that much but two of them are a buff for the unit. They were invaluable even in 7th, now they look even better. Never played an 8th game, and my 2 cents are only based on considering the 8th rules and codex and how the unit worked in 7th. Eventually if the vehicles blows up (trukks are still easy to wreck) and you must remove a casualty you can even sacrifice a 10 points squig instead of a 17 points tankbusta.

SemperMortis wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Play testers put Orks as a top tier. Given their pedigree vs random guy theory hammering, I'd say the OP is just wrong.

Yeah, those same play testers also predicted Orks would do well in 7th where as the Random Guy theory hammering put orks bottom tier.

I'll take Random Guy Theory Hammering over FLG's opinion any day of the week.

I'd take their opinion over yours any day of the week, mostly because A) they're excellent, accomplished players and B) They've been actually playing the game for months. Saying Orkz were gonna be good in 7th before they sucked was their own theory hammering, their opinions here are based on actually playing.

Orkz will be good. Maybe not as good as they say but they've go too much stuff going for them in this edition to suck.

ERJAK wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Play testers put Orks as a top tier. Given their pedigree vs random guy theory hammering, I'd say the OP is just wrong.

Yeah, those same play testers also predicted Orks would do well in 7th where as the Random Guy theory hammering put orks bottom tier.

I'll take Random Guy Theory Hammering over FLG's opinion any day of the week.

I'd take their opinion over yours any day of the week, mostly because A) they're excellent, accomplished players and B) They've been actually playing the game for months. Saying Orkz were gonna be good in 7th before they sucked was their own theory hammering, their opinions here are based on actually playing.

Orkz will be good. Maybe not as good as they say but they've go too much stuff going for them in this edition to suck.

Thats 100% your opinion and you are entitled to it. I am merely pointing out that those experts people are touting as the end all be all were the same ones saying orkz were going to be great in 7th edition. In other words, take their opinion with a grain of salt. Also keep in mind since they became the official play testers for 40k they have a vested interest in their work not being shown to be crap.

I'd say all armies got equally toned down in the streamlining process for 8th edition. From the few people in this thread who have played 8th edition Orks, they seem to be relatively balanced vs. other armies.

Elbows wrote:This is a good example of why math hammer is essentially pointless.

MathHammer can be helpful in some cases, but the fundamental problem is that it can only give you the arithmatic mean of a given outcome. In the real world, things tend more toward either end of the probability curve.

SemperMortis wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

 Lobukia wrote:
Play testers put Orks as a top tier. Given their pedigree vs random guy theory hammering, I'd say the OP is just wrong.

Yeah, those same play testers also predicted Orks would do well in 7th where as the Random Guy theory hammering put orks bottom tier.

I'll take Random Guy Theory Hammering over FLG's opinion any day of the week.

I'd take their opinion over yours any day of the week, mostly because A) they're excellent, accomplished players and B) They've been actually playing the game for months. Saying Orkz were gonna be good in 7th before they sucked was their own theory hammering, their opinions here are based on actually playing.

Orkz will be good. Maybe not as good as they say but they've go too much stuff going for them in this edition to suck.

Thats 100% your opinion and you are entitled to it. I am merely pointing out that those experts people are touting as the end all be all were the same ones saying orkz were going to be great in 7th edition. In other words, take their opinion with a grain of salt. Also keep in mind since they became the official play testers for 40k they have a vested interest in their work not being shown to be crap.

FLG has taken plenty of crap in the past as well. Remember when the ITC nerfed Eldar or Tau?

We should make a poll on whether you trust them or not


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 docdoom77 wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
I HAVE PROOF!

That Ork Boyz keep their attack bonus if they start with lot's of Boyz.

Well, it's more like I have a really strong argument for it.

Genestealer have a similar rule but completely different that states...

"Genestealers have 4 attacks instead of 3 whilst their unit has 10 or more models."

If this was their intention for Boyz, then why not add the same "whilst" to the Boyz?

Because with Bespoke rules, you'll see this all the time? Different bespoke rule, different wording.

I don't buy your argument at all. "If a unit includes 20 or more models," does not preclude losing the bonus due to casualties. If I purchase 30 boys and lose 11 of them, my unit no longer 'includes' 20 or more boys. It now "includes" 19 boys. If it said "starts with" or "includED" then you'd have an argument.

I guarantee if you tried this at any tournament, it would get shot down in a heartbeat.

"If this unit includes 20 or more models, add a Power Klaw to each model in this unit."

Exact same spelling and wording, just changed the bonus.
You tell me...
Would you lose the Power Claw when you go under 20 or not.

So not an ork player but played a guy that has orks. Wanted to see what ork players were saying about thier army. He was pretty happy.

Lost the game, BTW. He brought thrakka and his 30 boy squads charged my line on turn 2. One squad did well on overwatch got like 12 kills. The other not so well he got 20 boyz in and wiped my 10 man squad in a single round (8 wounds and 2 lost from battle shock). I was blown away Orks seem to be in a pretty good place right now. Or am I wrong?

Lost the game, BTW. He brought thrakka and his 30 boy squads charged my line on turn 2. One squad did well on overwatch got like 12 kills. The other not so well he got 20 boyz in and wiped my 10 man squad in a single round (8 wounds and 2 lost from battle shock). I was blown away Orks seem to be in a pretty good place right now. Or am I wrong?

We won't really know until people start breaking out the hard major tournament style break lists, but to put it bluntly several of the worst armies in the game (IG, Nids, Orks) have definitely felt the buff hand.

Seems like it. I was just floored when he said " I get 100 attacks" and thrn actully got 100 attacks.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
So not an ork player but played a guy that has orks. Wanted to see what ork players were saying about thier army. He was pretty happy.

Lost the game, BTW. He brought thrakka and his 30 boy squads charged my line on turn 2. One squad did well on overwatch got like 12 kills. The other not so well he got 20 boyz in and wiped my 10 man squad in a single round (8 wounds and 2 lost from battle shock). I was blown away Orks seem to be in a pretty good place right now. Or am I wrong?

Most of this thread is theory crafting,

and I suspect a lot of it is without seeing many of the nerfs to other factions.

 Talamare wrote:

Most of this thread is theory crafting,

and I suspect a lot of it is without seeing many of the nerfs to other factions.

I see they dont realize a reduction does not necessarily mean a reduction in status, although an understandable mistake to make given where orks have been for a while.

Orks cant be weak when you factor in the 2000 pt list of 500 gretchin

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Talamare wrote:

Most of this thread is theory crafting,

and I suspect a lot of it is without seeing many of the nerfs to other factions.

I see they dont realize a reduction does not necessarily mean a reduction in status, although an understandable mistake to make given where orks have been for a while.

The problem is most of them either wanted Orks to be buffed to 7th Ed Eldar levels (i.e: broken to all hell) so they can get some measure of "revenge", or they're so used to being the bottom rung army that the idea that their codexes might actually be good (not broken, but good) makes them fear that they can no longer complain about other people's wins. Not to mention a lot more people are still stuck in the mentality of 7th while trying to make their armies work. Change sucks, but it happens.